Optional death deterrents are pretty pointless. People who want more challenge or risk are likely already playing as if a death penalty already exists. In other words, they make every effort not to die already.
What's making the above types unhappy is that there is another side to the playerbase - one that plays the game as if they have god-mode activated. They don't have any use for tactics or strategy, nor can they be bothered with simply "playing well". Anything that takes more time than zerging is seen as a waste of time.
When you throw these two types of people together in a group, someone invariably ends up not enjoying themselves. Usually it's the people who prefer a smarter style of play who are the ones who end up disappointed, because their teammates can drag the entire experience down to their level and nothing can be done to stop it. An optional death penalty isn't going to change that because it doesn't introduce a death deterrent to the right group of people.
So, one way or the other someone is going to be unhappy. Basically, it comes down to they type of game you want to have: one where players respect the challenges and put at least a little thought into beating them. Or, one where players just throw themselves mindlessly and repetitively at a challenge until they wear it down. Honestly, if it were up to me I'd want to encourage players to play smarter - which means introducing a reasonable deterrent to death which applies to everyone and isn't optional.
Optional death deterrents are pretty pointless. People who want more challenge or risk are likely already playing as if a death penalty already exists. In other words, they make every effort not to die already.
Exactly. I don't die because it means I failed. Don't need a DP to dissuade me from dying.
Complete TRIBBLE. You want a DP? You'll have one. You want to prove how much better you are than others? Turn it on and leave it on. You are a total hypocrite if you don't.
You are not fooling anyone. You want a DP so you can punish and penalize others because that what you consider fun. You've made it abundantly clear that your idea of fun is derived from taking away from the play experience and fun of others.
You will have your optional DP and difficulty slider soon. Use them. If you don't, you are a complete hypocrite.
LOL, nice flame attempt. As has been repeated over and over in this thread: people want BOTH a challenging game (versus a no-tactics sandbox) AND a level playing field since they are playing a multiplayer game afterall. The two desires are not mutually exclusive no matter how hard you try to cover your ears and scream that they are
Optional death deterrents are pretty pointless. People who want more challenge or risk are likely already playing as if a death penalty already exists. In other words, they make every effort not to die already.
What's making the above types unhappy is that there is another side to the playerbase - one that plays the game as if they have god-mode activated. They don't have any use for tactics or strategy, nor can they be bothered with simply "playing well". Anything that takes more time than zerging is seen as a waste of time.
When you throw these two types of people together in a group, someone invariably ends up not enjoying themselves. Usually it's the people who prefer a smarter style of play who are the ones who end up disappointed, because their teammates can drag the entire experience down to their level and nothing can be done to stop it. An optional death penalty isn't going to change that because it doesn't introduce a death deterrent to the right group of people.
So, one way or the other someone is going to be unhappy. Basically, it comes down to they type of game you want to have: one where players respect the challenges and put at least a little thought into beating them. Or, one where players just throw themselves mindlessly and repetitively at a challenge until they wear it down. Honestly, if it were up to me I'd want to encourage players to play smarter - which means introducing a reasonable deterrent to death which applies to everyone and isn't optional.
Exactely. This is the crux of the problem and why an optional death penalty is a poor solution. The truth of the matter is there's nothing stopping players from penalizing themselves when they die now (unequipping gear/officers, giving away come credits every time they die, dropping the mission and having to start over etc.). So adding an optional game mechanic doesn't change the scenario any. The point of having a penalty is to alter behavior, and you can't alter behavior with an opt out system.
Now, a universal death penalty probably woun't do what people want either, but that doesn't make the optional death penealty any less of a waste of effort.
LOL, nice flame attempt. As has been repeated over and over in this thread: people want BOTH a challenging game (versus a no-tactics sandbox) AND a level playing field since they are playing a multiplayer game afterall. The two desires are not mutually exclusive no matter how hard you try to cover your ears and scream that they are
I ask you, what is stopping anyone from finding like minded players who will team with them? Nothing. Find other people who want to play with the DP turned on and YOU ARE on a level playing field. Don't team with people who don't want to play the way you do.
Seriously, how hard is it? Do you really need Cryptic to spoonfeed the basics of team forming/socializing to you? If you are having that much difficulty finding teams of like minded players, I'll bet its because you're just too lazy to do so and that is your problem.
It's a bit frustrating to hear that Jack feels that death penalties are about making players spend more time on the game. They're not. It's about bumping up the level of quality you can expect from your teammates in a group. It's about providing people with an incentive to play smart, because many of them simply won't unless you give them an inconveniencing reason to.
It's a bit frustrating to hear that Jack feels that death penalties are about making players spend more time on the game. They're not. It's about bumping up the level of quality you can expect from your teammates in a group. It's about providing people with an incentive to play smart, because many of them simply won't unless you give them an inconveniencing reason to.
You can do this yourself by just finding quality people to group with. It doesnt require programmer effort at all. Even in games with the harshest of DPs you still find poor quality idiots. In all games, DP or No, you just move on to people that suit your playstyle better.
Posted this in another and thought it applied here as well.
I have to say if this ends up being optional, I'm going to have to laugh when the threads about even more outrageous exchange prices, and gear differences start popping up after it's implemented. Then we'll get to see if all those against it simply wanted all things in the game handed to them, or if they truly just wanted to have 'fun'. Unfortunately if it is the latter I'm betting most of them will be gone in 6 months anyway after they've hit the cap and run out of things to do.
It's a bit frustrating to hear that Jack feels that death penalties are about making players spend more time on the game. They're not. It's about bumping up the level of quality you can expect from your teammates in a group. It's about providing people with an incentive to play smart, because many of them simply won't unless you give them an inconveniencing reason to.
In some games, the severe death penalties were designed to keep people playing longer from a business end.
That's not to say you can't find meaning and explanation in them - just that many developers have acknowledged to Jack that it was done for business and not for consumer reasons.
Posted this in another and thought it applied here as well.
I have to say if this ends up being optional, I'm going to have to laugh when the threads about even more outrageous exchange prices, and gear differences start popping up after it's implemented. Then we'll get to see if all those against it simply wanted all things in the game handed to them, or if they truly just wanted to have 'fun'. Unfortunately if it is the latter I'm betting most of them will be gone in 6 months anyway after they've hit the cap and run out of things to do.
Would be nothing for the Anti-DP crowd to complain about. They could turn it on at any time they wanted. But if the DP is forced on everyone, they have no choice in the matter.
Meanwhile the Pro-DP crowd will come to realize no one is actually playing any smarter that wasn't already.
You can do this yourself by just finding quality people to group with. It doesnt require programmer effort at all. Even in games with the harshest of DPs you still find poor quality idiots. In all games, DP or No, you just move on to people that suit your playstyle better.
MMOs/game typically ramp up in difficulty as you progress through the levels. When a game gives the players an incentive to survive rather than leaving the door wide open for mindless zerging, it will produce a higher quality player. Short of being completely carried, you have to get used to playing smarter or you can't succeed in the game.
Yes, you can just look for quality players to group with, but if the game does its best to encourage players to improve their gaming skills then your chance of finding quality players to begin with raises dramatically. In other words, you'll be disappointed with the experience much less often.
I have to say if this ends up being optional, I'm going to have to laugh when the threads about even more outrageous exchange prices, and gear differences start popping up after it's implemented. Then we'll get to see if all those against it simply wanted all things in the game handed to them, or if they truly just wanted to have 'fun'. Unfortunately if it is the latter I'm betting most of them will be gone in 6 months anyway after they've hit the cap and run out of things to do.
I hope you are wrong, yet I have no doubt you'll see those kinds of posts. To be honest, wanting an optional DP yet expecting to get the same rewards if you do not enable it as those who do is hypocritical.
I doubt I'll enable it myself full time, but I certainly won't complain if those that do opt into the DP have better equipment than I do because they wanted to increase their risk.
This brings us to the questions, however, of what purpose the rule is supposed to serve, and whether it actually serves the intended purpose.
The pro-DP folks cited a few reasons for a DP, one of which was an issue of personal challenge. The argument was that without the sense of risk, any sense of reward or victory was diminished. Making the DP optional seems like it would satisfy that sense of risk... if that's all there were to it.
The other big reason was to stem zerging activity and other "bad" play - which is a separate issue which can and, IMHO, should be handled through a non-punitive mechanic (e.g. mob reset/respawn on defeat, higher NPC out-of-combat regeneration, actual mission failure, etc.). Again, if preventing zerging were all there were to it.
You can argue that a non-optional DP serves both purposes, but you'd have to explain why a DP would satisfy the second purpose significantly better than the options I mentioned.
But why competition? That's not the only possible multi-player interaction - nor, for many, is it even the most important. As I pointed out, there's also cooperation, learning tricks from others, and something I didn't mention, sharing an experience as a way to socialize.
Besides, I suspect I'm missing something - how does a DP lend or enhance a sense of competition?
DP enhances competition of course, but it cant be just left alone. It needs to come together with win-need system. That means you only complete PvP quest if you win, not just if you participate. Now imagine for completing a daily quest you will need to win 3 Hostile Engagements. Death penalty will be set this way: If you die for first time, you wont be able to use Cmdr. BO ability until the end of the match, if you die second time you wont be able to use LtCmdr. BO ability until end of match as well. Now science ship will be penalized and not able to use VM / FBP, cruisers wont be able to use RSP chain in battle if killed, escort wont be able to use Attack Patterns and so on. If you win the Hostile Engagement you get all rewards plus daily quest count. If you lose the match you just get nothing (no rewards / points and no quest count). This way I would like it.
What I hate most is some "casual" player entering warzone for daily and then going afk to do some cooking / feeding child / sleeping / going for a walk with dog or whatever. Then coming back and take same reward as the guys that actually did and finished the Borg hunt quest. Dont reward losing, dont reward being afk. Players that play better should be rewarded with better items. Higher skill - better rewards. But now it is - "You suck? Doesnt matter, you dont even have to play the game and still get same items as people who do play the game."
In PvE your suggestion is good and can work well even without DP - that means respawning of enemies and putting them to full health, in STF also respawning nodes if team wipes.
Would be nothing for the Anti-DP crowd to complain about. They could turn it on at any time they wanted. But if the DP is forced on everyone, they have no choice in the matter.
Meanwhile the Pro-DP crowd will come to realize no one is actually playing any smarter that wasn't already.
They very well could. But do you honestly think that all on that side of the fence are of that mentality. I have my reservations in that respect. Saw it happen already once in WoW, when they introduced the Heroic dungeon system for all instances and raids. People complained that the couldn't/wouldn't do the heroic versions and since they couldn't they weren't allowed the gear from said instances. Some of which would end up on the AH for exorbitant prices (of which people also complained).
You're right they always COULD turn it on, but how many of them are going to use the 'casual' excuse in that they don't have the time to be bothered with turning it on and don't have the time to deal with the consequences there after. How many will simply sit there/here and complain just because they don't want to work for it? My guess (from these DP threads) is A LOT!
MMOs/game typically ramp up in difficulty as you progress through the levels. When a game gives the players an incentive to survive rather than leaving the door wide open for mindless zerging, it will produce a higher quality player. Short of being completely carried, you have to get used to playing smarter or you can't succeed in the game.
Yes, you can just look for quality players to group with, but if the game does its best to encourage players to improve their gaming skills then your chance of finding quality players to begin with raises dramatically. In other words, you'll be disappointed with the experience much less often.
The problem with mindless zerging is that the current system allows it as a viable tactic. The DP does nothing to change that problem in design.
And to date I've never seen mindless zerging as even a slight problem. I have yet to group with a Leroy Jenkins in this game. The only time I've ever seen people doo it is in random encounters, and there its just as likely to be killed before you even finish zoning in.
Until they fix all ways of dying outside of the player's control, DP should not be forced upon anyone. Simple as that.
In some games, the severe death penalties were designed to keep people playing longer from a business end.
That's not to say you can't find meaning and explanation in them - just that many developers have acknowledged to Jack that it was done for business and not for consumer reasons.
I believe that. But I'm talking about "reasonable" death penalties. It's no secret that there are penalties which are meant to be (obvious) time sinks, but there are also penalties that simply try to encourage the player to play smarter because the alternative is undesirable. EverQuest-style corpse runs are an example of the former (time sink). WoW's method of decreasing the quality of treasure you receive when your group suffers too many wipes is a good example of the latter.
To throw them all in the "time sink" category is and ignore the systems that can be used to improve how players approach a challenge in the game is, I feel, a waste and short sighted. In fact, in games like WoW where players move through content more quickly when they succeed because they spend less time recovering from a wipe, survival incentives actually cut down on the amount of wasted time rather than add to them.
They very well could. But do you honestly think that all on that side of the fence are of that mentality. I have my reservations in that respect. Saw it happen already once in WoW, when they introduced the Heroic dungeon system for all instances and raids. People complained that the couldn't/wouldn't do the heroic versions and since they couldn't they weren't allowed the gear from said instances. Some of which would end up on the AH for exorbitant prices (of which people also complained).
You're right they always COULD turn it on, but how many of them are going to use the 'casual' excuse in that they don't have the time to be bothered with turning it on and don't have the time to deal with the consequences there after. How many will simply sit there/here and complain just because they don't want to work for it? My guess (from these DP threads) is A LOT!
Thats when we get to point and laugh. As an Anti-DP person I'll be laughing right along with you.
My personal feeling is this. If something is in the game and I want it, I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get it or shut up on it. For example, many games give rewards for PvPing. I don't PvP. If I want those things, I either should PvP or deal with it.
Better rewards for turning on the DP would be similar to this. If I don't take the risk, I don't deserve the rewards.
WoW's method of decreasing the quality of treasure you receive when your group suffers too many wipes is a good example of the latter.
Where is this mechanic described I've never heard of it? As far as I knew the penalties for death were a 10% durability hit on your armor, and if you rezzed at the graveyard another 15% and a 10 minute debuff. I've never seen or heard of anything relating to gear quality changes.
Saw it happen already once in WoW, when they introduced the Heroic dungeon system for all instances and raids. People complained that the couldn't/wouldn't do the heroic versions and since they couldn't they weren't allowed the gear from said instances. Some of which would end up on the AH for exorbitant prices (of which people also complained).
You're right they always COULD turn it on, but how many of them are going to use the 'casual' excuse in that they don't have the time to be bothered with turning it on and don't have the time to deal with the consequences there after. How many will simply sit there/here and complain just because they don't want to work for it? My guess (from these DP threads) is A LOT!
You are always going to have these kinds of people. It also in no way means that everyone on the Anti-DP side of the fence is like this.
As I've said, I most likely will not enable it, yet I don't expect the same rewards as those who do. If I personally want better rewards or a higher level of challenge, then I will put in the effort to obtain them.
As a casual player (and most all my friends are casual players as well), using "can't afford the time" as an excuse to have rewards handed to you without putting in the time and effort doesn't fly.
We don't know any details beyond that it will be optional at this point, and I personally think optional makes the most sense for everyone involved. Those who want it on can team with others that want it on as well. Those who don't want the DP aren't forced into it.
If it did not give some better rewards for enabling it vs. turning it off, then it will be unfair to those who want the challenge. I doubt they will release it without attaching some greater reward for the greater risk though.
Where is this mechanic described I've never heard of it? As far as I knew the penalties for death were a 10% durability hit on your armor, and if you rezzed at the graveyard another 15% and a 10 minute debuff. I've never seen or heard of anything relating to gear quality changes.
In WoW, there are treasure caches that show up only if your group was able to beat the content without dying excessively. It's a newer, endgame feature. It encourages players to "up their game".
In PvE your suggestion is good and can work well even without DP - that means respawning of enemies and putting them to full health, in STF also respawning nodes if team wipes.
I was mainly talking of PvE, but I still don't see how a DP would add to the sense of competition in PvP either. Seems to me that problems with "raw dogs" and AFKers can be more directly addressed by tying PvP mission rewards to things like kill/death ratios, damage dealt, damage healed, or regular use of abilities - i.e., scaling reward to actual participation.
Sorry if I seem obtuse, but I'm gonna ask you to connect the dots for me one more time. How does a DP enhance competition?
In WoW, there are treasure caches that show up only if your group was able to beat the content without dying excessively. It's a newer, endgame feature. It encourages players to "up their game".
Btw, I have no problem whatesoever with this sort of thing. Or even the way DDO gives a bonus at the end of a module for not dying. Rewarding good play is much better than a penalty for dying.
Btw, I have no problem whatesoever with this sort of thing. Or even the way DDO gives a bonus at the end of a module for not dying. Rewarding good play is much better than a penalty for dying.
Exactly. Thus, making it optional doesn't give anyone an advantage, since you don't get those bonuses if you don't have it on.
But then again, since we don't know anything about the DP other than it's coming and it's optional, QQing that it's optional is pointless.
Btw, I have no problem whatesoever with this sort of thing. Or even the way DDO gives a bonus at the end of a module for not dying. Rewarding good play is much better than a penalty for dying.
That's really all in the perception and presentation.
Developers: We've introduced a new mission. If you manage to complete it without dying you'll be awarded these item rewards!
Players: Woot! Time to get my mad skillz on!
..and..
Developers: We've introduced a new mission. If you die while trying to complete the mission you'll forfeit these item rewards.
Players: Wha? Well that's just stupid.
..are two different ways of presenting (and reacting to) the exact same idea.
Fair is fair. Naturally, Cryptic would like to make as many people as possible happy. No matter how good or bad one is at this game, we all bought a copy and pay $14.99 a month or dropped like $300 for a lifetime subscription. Everyones wants/needs must be considered. You can't please all the people all of the time but perhaps most of the people most of the time. I have to believe that Cryptic is trying to consider the feelings of every subscriber.
I would have to say that for a casual/inexperienced player a mandatory DP would suck the fun right out or at least stifle it quite a bit. I would prefer an optional DP. "DP on" would be like an "expert" or "simulator" mode."DP off" would be more of a "beginner" or "arcade style" mode. As mentioned earlier; higher rewards on expert mode (DP on) would be quite an incentive for those who have the time to get good enough for that. That seems like a reasonable and fair idea. For me, this game is not some super competitive "gotta be the best" kind of thing. It's something for me to have fun and relax with after 9 or 10 hours of work. I don't have the time necessary to be one of the best or even really, really good at it. It's just for fun. For me, "fun" is logging on for an hour or 2 at a time and doing a mission or DSE or two. Losing what little I have earned or not being able to re-spawn for an hour would ruin it for me. Just my 2 cents (which is all I have left after my $14.99/month. LOL)
..are two different ways of presenting (and reacting to) the exact same idea.
Not quite what I mean.
Standard completion: Get mission completion rewards. Current game. Surival Bonus: Get Extra rewards for doing well. Good Job! Death Penalty: End off worse than when you started. You suck!
The problem with punitive death penalties is that it renders the player even less suited to deal with what killed them the first time. Or (in the case of exp/cash penalites) ends off worse than if they never did the mission at all.
I find the latter type of penalty makes people less willing to group since it hurts their advancement. Mainly due to increased difficulty with mission scaling and the greater chance of dying when other people are involved.
I am a few days late into this, so I can only hope the Devs have been monitoring posts. Most people don't want DP by the posters that have come from the game, never have posted to forum,s JUST BECAUSE they heard about DP being considered.
Anyway, so now we have something optional. Okay, okay. Sounds fine, but I am of two minds about this, because I do see the writing on the wall. It's a bit of a concern from my game-play-perspective that may not match others...or it may. The thing is, I can see a system that rewards those that turn on the optional DP (slider?) better than those that leave it off. For me personally, wanting to stay competitive and wanting the shiny Lambourghini over the Ford Taurus is a subtle and tempting draw. As in other games (such as, by Cryptic) one can also do this. You get bigger rewards.
It is human nature and I can't argue against it, but as the game is now, I am cool with it. There are not too many "haves" and "have nots". I get the same chance at drops and XP as everyone else.
Again, speculating about details I know little about, I would not mind increased XP/merits for such an optional system, but I AM CONCERNED over Loot/Rarity. I love challenge, but most Pro-DP arguements just wanted a challenge with no candy award attached, but the reality is, this was never the case. In between words, they WOULD mention higher rewards. A bit hypocritical, IMO. Still, again, "human nature", especially if you made a DP optional. I can't think of an alternative for this kind of "reward" system other than this at present time.
I would just repeat this: If such a thing rewards higher/hardcore play, just reward folks with higher XP and Merits to buy stuff. Don't add rarity of items into this equation.
Comments
What's making the above types unhappy is that there is another side to the playerbase - one that plays the game as if they have god-mode activated. They don't have any use for tactics or strategy, nor can they be bothered with simply "playing well". Anything that takes more time than zerging is seen as a waste of time.
When you throw these two types of people together in a group, someone invariably ends up not enjoying themselves. Usually it's the people who prefer a smarter style of play who are the ones who end up disappointed, because their teammates can drag the entire experience down to their level and nothing can be done to stop it. An optional death penalty isn't going to change that because it doesn't introduce a death deterrent to the right group of people.
So, one way or the other someone is going to be unhappy. Basically, it comes down to they type of game you want to have: one where players respect the challenges and put at least a little thought into beating them. Or, one where players just throw themselves mindlessly and repetitively at a challenge until they wear it down. Honestly, if it were up to me I'd want to encourage players to play smarter - which means introducing a reasonable deterrent to death which applies to everyone and isn't optional.
Exactly. I don't die because it means I failed. Don't need a DP to dissuade me from dying.
LOL, nice flame attempt. As has been repeated over and over in this thread: people want BOTH a challenging game (versus a no-tactics sandbox) AND a level playing field since they are playing a multiplayer game afterall. The two desires are not mutually exclusive no matter how hard you try to cover your ears and scream that they are
Exactely. This is the crux of the problem and why an optional death penalty is a poor solution. The truth of the matter is there's nothing stopping players from penalizing themselves when they die now (unequipping gear/officers, giving away come credits every time they die, dropping the mission and having to start over etc.). So adding an optional game mechanic doesn't change the scenario any. The point of having a penalty is to alter behavior, and you can't alter behavior with an opt out system.
Now, a universal death penalty probably woun't do what people want either, but that doesn't make the optional death penealty any less of a waste of effort.
I ask you, what is stopping anyone from finding like minded players who will team with them? Nothing. Find other people who want to play with the DP turned on and YOU ARE on a level playing field. Don't team with people who don't want to play the way you do.
Seriously, how hard is it? Do you really need Cryptic to spoonfeed the basics of team forming/socializing to you? If you are having that much difficulty finding teams of like minded players, I'll bet its because you're just too lazy to do so and that is your problem.
Stop trying to BS everyone here.
You can do this yourself by just finding quality people to group with. It doesnt require programmer effort at all. Even in games with the harshest of DPs you still find poor quality idiots. In all games, DP or No, you just move on to people that suit your playstyle better.
I have to say if this ends up being optional, I'm going to have to laugh when the threads about even more outrageous exchange prices, and gear differences start popping up after it's implemented. Then we'll get to see if all those against it simply wanted all things in the game handed to them, or if they truly just wanted to have 'fun'. Unfortunately if it is the latter I'm betting most of them will be gone in 6 months anyway after they've hit the cap and run out of things to do.
That's not to say you can't find meaning and explanation in them - just that many developers have acknowledged to Jack that it was done for business and not for consumer reasons.
Would be nothing for the Anti-DP crowd to complain about. They could turn it on at any time they wanted. But if the DP is forced on everyone, they have no choice in the matter.
Meanwhile the Pro-DP crowd will come to realize no one is actually playing any smarter that wasn't already.
MMOs/game typically ramp up in difficulty as you progress through the levels. When a game gives the players an incentive to survive rather than leaving the door wide open for mindless zerging, it will produce a higher quality player. Short of being completely carried, you have to get used to playing smarter or you can't succeed in the game.
Yes, you can just look for quality players to group with, but if the game does its best to encourage players to improve their gaming skills then your chance of finding quality players to begin with raises dramatically. In other words, you'll be disappointed with the experience much less often.
I hope you are wrong, yet I have no doubt you'll see those kinds of posts. To be honest, wanting an optional DP yet expecting to get the same rewards if you do not enable it as those who do is hypocritical.
I doubt I'll enable it myself full time, but I certainly won't complain if those that do opt into the DP have better equipment than I do because they wanted to increase their risk.
DP enhances competition of course, but it cant be just left alone. It needs to come together with win-need system. That means you only complete PvP quest if you win, not just if you participate. Now imagine for completing a daily quest you will need to win 3 Hostile Engagements. Death penalty will be set this way: If you die for first time, you wont be able to use Cmdr. BO ability until the end of the match, if you die second time you wont be able to use LtCmdr. BO ability until end of match as well. Now science ship will be penalized and not able to use VM / FBP, cruisers wont be able to use RSP chain in battle if killed, escort wont be able to use Attack Patterns and so on. If you win the Hostile Engagement you get all rewards plus daily quest count. If you lose the match you just get nothing (no rewards / points and no quest count). This way I would like it.
What I hate most is some "casual" player entering warzone for daily and then going afk to do some cooking / feeding child / sleeping / going for a walk with dog or whatever. Then coming back and take same reward as the guys that actually did and finished the Borg hunt quest. Dont reward losing, dont reward being afk. Players that play better should be rewarded with better items. Higher skill - better rewards. But now it is - "You suck? Doesnt matter, you dont even have to play the game and still get same items as people who do play the game."
In PvE your suggestion is good and can work well even without DP - that means respawning of enemies and putting them to full health, in STF also respawning nodes if team wipes.
No, it's not, because DP has nothing to do with actual difficulty.
They very well could. But do you honestly think that all on that side of the fence are of that mentality. I have my reservations in that respect. Saw it happen already once in WoW, when they introduced the Heroic dungeon system for all instances and raids. People complained that the couldn't/wouldn't do the heroic versions and since they couldn't they weren't allowed the gear from said instances. Some of which would end up on the AH for exorbitant prices (of which people also complained).
You're right they always COULD turn it on, but how many of them are going to use the 'casual' excuse in that they don't have the time to be bothered with turning it on and don't have the time to deal with the consequences there after. How many will simply sit there/here and complain just because they don't want to work for it? My guess (from these DP threads) is A LOT!
The problem with mindless zerging is that the current system allows it as a viable tactic. The DP does nothing to change that problem in design.
And to date I've never seen mindless zerging as even a slight problem. I have yet to group with a Leroy Jenkins in this game. The only time I've ever seen people doo it is in random encounters, and there its just as likely to be killed before you even finish zoning in.
Until they fix all ways of dying outside of the player's control, DP should not be forced upon anyone. Simple as that.
I believe that. But I'm talking about "reasonable" death penalties. It's no secret that there are penalties which are meant to be (obvious) time sinks, but there are also penalties that simply try to encourage the player to play smarter because the alternative is undesirable. EverQuest-style corpse runs are an example of the former (time sink). WoW's method of decreasing the quality of treasure you receive when your group suffers too many wipes is a good example of the latter.
To throw them all in the "time sink" category is and ignore the systems that can be used to improve how players approach a challenge in the game is, I feel, a waste and short sighted. In fact, in games like WoW where players move through content more quickly when they succeed because they spend less time recovering from a wipe, survival incentives actually cut down on the amount of wasted time rather than add to them.
Thats when we get to point and laugh. As an Anti-DP person I'll be laughing right along with you.
My personal feeling is this. If something is in the game and I want it, I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get it or shut up on it. For example, many games give rewards for PvPing. I don't PvP. If I want those things, I either should PvP or deal with it.
Better rewards for turning on the DP would be similar to this. If I don't take the risk, I don't deserve the rewards.
Where is this mechanic described I've never heard of it? As far as I knew the penalties for death were a 10% durability hit on your armor, and if you rezzed at the graveyard another 15% and a 10 minute debuff. I've never seen or heard of anything relating to gear quality changes.
You are always going to have these kinds of people. It also in no way means that everyone on the Anti-DP side of the fence is like this.
As I've said, I most likely will not enable it, yet I don't expect the same rewards as those who do. If I personally want better rewards or a higher level of challenge, then I will put in the effort to obtain them.
As a casual player (and most all my friends are casual players as well), using "can't afford the time" as an excuse to have rewards handed to you without putting in the time and effort doesn't fly.
We don't know any details beyond that it will be optional at this point, and I personally think optional makes the most sense for everyone involved. Those who want it on can team with others that want it on as well. Those who don't want the DP aren't forced into it.
If it did not give some better rewards for enabling it vs. turning it off, then it will be unfair to those who want the challenge. I doubt they will release it without attaching some greater reward for the greater risk though.
In WoW, there are treasure caches that show up only if your group was able to beat the content without dying excessively. It's a newer, endgame feature. It encourages players to "up their game".
Sorry if I seem obtuse, but I'm gonna ask you to connect the dots for me one more time. How does a DP enhance competition?
Btw, I have no problem whatesoever with this sort of thing. Or even the way DDO gives a bonus at the end of a module for not dying. Rewarding good play is much better than a penalty for dying.
Exactly. Thus, making it optional doesn't give anyone an advantage, since you don't get those bonuses if you don't have it on.
But then again, since we don't know anything about the DP other than it's coming and it's optional, QQing that it's optional is pointless.
That's really all in the perception and presentation.
Developers: We've introduced a new mission. If you manage to complete it without dying you'll be awarded these item rewards!
Players: Woot! Time to get my mad skillz on!
..and..
Developers: We've introduced a new mission. If you die while trying to complete the mission you'll forfeit these item rewards.
Players: Wha? Well that's just stupid.
..are two different ways of presenting (and reacting to) the exact same idea.
I would have to say that for a casual/inexperienced player a mandatory DP would suck the fun right out or at least stifle it quite a bit. I would prefer an optional DP. "DP on" would be like an "expert" or "simulator" mode."DP off" would be more of a "beginner" or "arcade style" mode. As mentioned earlier; higher rewards on expert mode (DP on) would be quite an incentive for those who have the time to get good enough for that. That seems like a reasonable and fair idea. For me, this game is not some super competitive "gotta be the best" kind of thing. It's something for me to have fun and relax with after 9 or 10 hours of work. I don't have the time necessary to be one of the best or even really, really good at it. It's just for fun. For me, "fun" is logging on for an hour or 2 at a time and doing a mission or DSE or two. Losing what little I have earned or not being able to re-spawn for an hour would ruin it for me. Just my 2 cents (which is all I have left after my $14.99/month. LOL)
Not quite what I mean.
Standard completion: Get mission completion rewards. Current game.
Surival Bonus: Get Extra rewards for doing well. Good Job!
Death Penalty: End off worse than when you started. You suck!
The problem with punitive death penalties is that it renders the player even less suited to deal with what killed them the first time. Or (in the case of exp/cash penalites) ends off worse than if they never did the mission at all.
I find the latter type of penalty makes people less willing to group since it hurts their advancement. Mainly due to increased difficulty with mission scaling and the greater chance of dying when other people are involved.
Anyway, so now we have something optional. Okay, okay. Sounds fine, but I am of two minds about this, because I do see the writing on the wall. It's a bit of a concern from my game-play-perspective that may not match others...or it may. The thing is, I can see a system that rewards those that turn on the optional DP (slider?) better than those that leave it off. For me personally, wanting to stay competitive and wanting the shiny Lambourghini over the Ford Taurus is a subtle and tempting draw. As in other games (such as, by Cryptic) one can also do this. You get bigger rewards.
It is human nature and I can't argue against it, but as the game is now, I am cool with it. There are not too many "haves" and "have nots". I get the same chance at drops and XP as everyone else.
Again, speculating about details I know little about, I would not mind increased XP/merits for such an optional system, but I AM CONCERNED over Loot/Rarity. I love challenge, but most Pro-DP arguements just wanted a challenge with no candy award attached, but the reality is, this was never the case. In between words, they WOULD mention higher rewards. A bit hypocritical, IMO. Still, again, "human nature", especially if you made a DP optional. I can't think of an alternative for this kind of "reward" system other than this at present time.
I would just repeat this: If such a thing rewards higher/hardcore play, just reward folks with higher XP and Merits to buy stuff. Don't add rarity of items into this equation.