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Ground PvP - Feds, please learn to stick together

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I play both a Federation Science Captain and a KDF Tactical Commander in ground PvP. I really enjoy the close, hard fought battles, win or lose. In addition to the 5v1 queue problem, one thing I notice for the Federation getting rolled more often is the lack of team cohesion. It is like they are all individuals running around separately. The good Fed teams I've battled stuck together and fought as a unit. KDF forces generally do better at this since they PvP from the beginning and have more practical experience - but that is the only imbalance in ground PvP, experience. Well, that and the queue issues. You can help your side do better by sticking together. I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.

Now, about 5v1: regardless which side you are on, why not ease up on the stuns/roots when you have your opponent outnumbered five to one? Maybe even stand down and make it a 2v1 or 3v1. It will be more sporting, and therefore more fun for both sides. It is no fun to roll or be rolled 5 vs 1 constantly. The badges will come either way.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Regarding 5v1.

    I don't blame Feds at lower lvls who don't want to stick around and die 5 v 1. Now that I play Klingon at BG lvl, I rarely stick around to play 5v1 when Feds have 5. The key is the system is broken, and players usually have choices. For a Klingon BG or for a lower level fed, there are typically other ques available that can be jumped into very quickly making leaving a viable option.

    In ground pvp, there are tactics that can spread out larger groups in the maps and give a badly outnumbered guy a chance to get some kills in, but those tactics are unpopular. I know because I do it. For example, an engineer with the neutralization kit can do a lot of running and if the enemy chases, the mines will thin the group out over time allowing for more manageable fights. The problem is nobody likes to chase people around the map a lot, so the 5 will complain heavily about the 1.

    Last night I was 5v1 against feds, doing the neutralization kit run/ambush technique and winning 12-6 before another Klingon showed up. In the end, the feds complained because I wouldn't just stand there and die 5v1, and they got tired of chasing me around the map. I understand their complaints, and not everyone understands all the tactics available to folks.

    Still, I was in a 5v2 on Saturday night and the 3 Fed tac officers all summoned their security escorts for every fight. They couldn't understand why both of us left and wouldn't stand there and fight 5 players and 12 NPCs each round. The system is what is broken, not the choices players make under the conditions. Those choices include both kit skills/tactics and the choice to stick around when badly overrun by a zerg.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kinja wrote:
    I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

    A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.

    Aside from the fact that ground PVP is hopelessly broken and isn't fun at all, it's true that Feds need more teamwork... so they can get held and vaporized in under a second as a group. FUN!

    If they ever fix ground PVP so it's actually worth playing, let's hope they bring in auto-teaming. Being a healer sucks when you can't see anyone's life bar because they have team invites turned off for some moronic reason.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The Majority of Federation players are not PvPers, and they are having it forced upon them to do it for the sake of equipment, not territory or presitge.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kinja wrote:
    I play both a Federation Science Captain and a KDF Tactical Commander in ground PvP. I really enjoy the close, hard fought battles, win or lose. In addition to the 5v1 queue problem, one thing I notice for the Federation getting rolled more often is the lack of team cohesion. It is like they are all individuals running around separately. The good Fed teams I've battled stuck together and fought as a unit. KDF forces generally do better at this since they PvP from the beginning and have more practical experience - but that is the only imbalance in ground PvP, experience. Well, that and the queue issues. You can help your side do better by sticking together. I played a few rounds as my Fed last night, and could only get one other player to team up - the rest just ignored me and ran off. The result when this happens is almost always the same, 40-5 KDF.

    A side note about teaming: Science's healing kit is MUCH more effective in a team since you can easily see who needs healing, rather than scurrying around clicking each player to see who needs it.

    Now, about 5v1: regardless which side you are on, why not ease up on the stuns/roots when you have your opponent outnumbered five to one? Maybe even stand down and make it a 2v1 or 3v1. It will be more sporting, and therefore more fun for both sides. It is no fun to roll or be rolled 5 vs 1 constantly. The badges will come either way.

    Kin,

    Ah not to make things personal. However I notice you are one of the first people to exploit the 5v1 situations. I watched you i don't know how many times run straight up to a stunned player and start spamming rifle butts and melee to keep that person stunned with no chance of fighting back. This is a common klink tactic. Stick together, stunn the person then 2 or 3 instantly run up to the person and start exploiting, spamming rifle butts and bat'lehs. What did you call it one match, team work?

    this is one of the biggest examples i have ever seen of the pot calling the kettle black.. = ).

    However i do agree with the teamwork issue. Klinks work much better as a group, teaming up, sticking togther, all targeting one player untill they are dead. Fed's usually do just ignore team invites, run off in different directions or even when teamed they all target different enemy targets and don't work well together.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kelmvor wrote:
    Kin,

    Ah not to make things personal. However I notice you are one of the first people to exploit the 5v1 situations. I watched you i don't know how many times run straight up to a stunned player and start spamming rifle butts and melee to keep that person stunned with no chance of fighting back. This is a common klink tactic. Stick together, stunn the person then 2 or 3 instantly run up to the person and start exploiting, spamming rifle butts and bat'lehs. What did you call it one match, team work?

    this is one of the biggest examples i have ever seen of the pot calling the kettle black.. = ).

    However i do agree with the teamwork issue. Klinks work much better as a group, teaming up, sticking togther, all targeting one player untill they are dead. Fed's usually do just ignore team invites, run off in different directions or even when teamed they all target different enemy targets and don't work well together.

    Actually, you must have me confused with someone else. I specifically avoid spamming the riflebutt because I hate it myself. I will hit you with it once if I think I need to, but I definitely do not spam it. What I do use is the stun pistol, but that is on a six-second cooldown, so again, not spammable. There is one situation where I will hit someone with the riflebutt multiple times: after they have spammed me with it several times. It is so aggrivating.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kin,

    Well if i have you confused with another player I will be the first to apologize. I do remember the name though and instantly connected it with spamming melee. could be another player with the same name.

    Though it is easy to spam the stun pistol. Especially if you are very fast at switching back and forth between weapons or use voice communications. Which is exactly what i use. I don't use a keyboard, I use voice comm's and can switch between weapons or get off my other attacks in just an instant. Much faster just to say, change, and my weapons instantly switch, or yell evade, and my telekentics instantly come off. I yell nade and instantly throw a grenade.

    So as you can see it is very easy to spam/exploit things when changing between them as quickly as one can. Yes their is a 6 second cool down but the individual can be stunned for the same amount of time. Yes it is hit or miss, they may be stunned for half a second, or 6 seconds with a stunn pistol. It's still easy to exploit it. Even when they arn't and just start to move, your going to be hit or take damage but just stunn them again. Rinse and repeat until they are dead. Stun, switch to other weapon, if they got exposed, isn't death, if not, heavily damage them, switch back, check cool down timer, if they become unstunned, hit them with it again, if not ready hit them with palm strike or if your super quick, switch back, rifle butt, etc.

    As an experienced ground pvp you can see where i am going with this. And that is just 1v1. Now imagine 3 people stunning a person and then running right up to them all spamming rifle butts, bat'lehs, palm strikes and other melee weapons. The player has 0 chance of ever becoming unstuned and when they do it's only long enough to get instantly stunned again.

    Just cause a wep has a cool down timer doesn't mean it can't be exploited. = ).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think we can all agree that it's not fun to be on the receiving end of hold spam. and when you're badly outnumbered (or very far behind on the scoreboard) it's even less fun.

    it can get so bad that many players will just refuse to respawn, or they'll leave the match. yes, you can call them whiners and crybabies but *you* will be the ones stuck with nobody to kill (and no way to complete the match) if they all leave.

    sometimes a pvp match finishes faster if you give the enemy the illusion that they're close to figuring out how to beat you. as long as you keep them thinking "darn, I *almost* got him that time!" they will keep respawning to die at your hands, over and over.

    -ken
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kinja is my Federation character, and he has only been in a couple of ground matches in the last month. Dagai is my KDF character, who has been in gound combat every night for last week or two.

    I absolutely agree with you about the over-the-top holds and stuns in the game, and the fact that the queue allows uneven matches. Combine those two with blood-thirsty opponents and it can rapidly become unfun. I'd be happy if the stuns were toned way down, and I am hoping the new update will alleviate the problems somewhat. If stuns were completely removed, other changes would have to be put in place at the same, or you would have some unkillable Science captains though. So it may be better to leave well enough alone once the queues are fixed and the consumables break holds/exploits/wep malfunction. Oh, and put a cooldown on riflebutt/palm-strike.

    Regarding uneven matches, last night the KDF side was getting handily beat by Federation (Dexter and some other guys - Tier 3). A couple of the KDF guys left once they saw we had a decent fight on our hands - that was quite maddening - leaving 2-3 of us to fight the five Feds. Usually, from my experience, KDF is beating the Federation, so I welcome those opportunities when we have a decent group of opponents, even if they are soundly beating us. Getting beat is when I learn the most. I really like fighting Lori's team (she physically abuses Dagai :)), and Dexter and crew last night were quite tough - this is all Tier 3 for the moment.

    Overall, I am really enjoying ground PvP, even with its warts. I just wish the queue was fixed so there would be even matches.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I don't bother with ground PvP because I absolutely hate everything about the ground mechanics in PvE. Because of this I have no interest in subjecting myself to it, much less subjecting other people to my clumsiness. I'm posting because you bring up several issues that I feel are important in both space and ground combat.

    The uneven team load outs is frustrating across the board. The over manned team can be spiteful, cocky, and otherwise completely disrespectful in a way that only comes when all you have in your favor is the unfair advantage. Have a couple of people agree to hang back and attack only when attacked. Swap your teams so that no one has to stand still the entire match.

    If you treat your opponents with some degree of respect then maybe they will be less likely to abandon the map and leave you with your diddle flowin' in the wind. I know one thing that gets under my skin is when the people who will swarm a low man group are the same people who will duck out when the numbers aren't in their favor.

    It may be easier to decide you'd rather leave the 5v1 odds and que up another match. I guess what I really just wanted to say is thank you for sticking it out when you are at the disadvantage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I play a fed exclusivly in PVP and have so much fun, I'm not sure I will ever do anything else but PVP, mostly ground PVP from now on.

    Sometimes it's no fun when you get 2-3 fed teammates that dont understand that sticking together and working together is the key to a balanced, fun battle, but I've been on the winning side of some 40-4 battles as well. It goes both ways, even though KDF's are better team PVP'ers in general, you find some inexpereinced players sometimes and it's not fun winning 40-5 either (more fun than losing 40-5, but not much more).

    What I do like (and I practice regularly) is when you get 5-1, I encourge my team to stand down and take the enemy on 1-on-1 while the other 4 watches. It's fun watching this and makes it fun for both sides. And in EVERY case, a couple minutes of this and KDF reinforcements eventually arrive and we can get down to some good team play. We did this just last night and Feds were ahead 4-2 (going solo on a lone KDF) before reinforments arrived and we ended up losing the battle 40-36, but it was fun, close and a blast.

    If we ganked the poor KDF 5-on-1 for any amount of time, he would have left, another arrives, sees the score 6-0 with no help, leaves and it ruines it for all.

    Everyone wants to win, but it's alot more fun winning (and even losing) agianst equal odds and sporting play.

    Have fun, stick together and look for me, Jazdon (Cmd), Jason (LC) and Jackson (L) @TexKSAH ground PVP'ing for the Feds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree, sticking together makes all the difference, especially, if one of the players can detect stealth, it can change the tempo of the match to the blue's team liking.

    Not only is the team able to assist each other, but now they can protect each others flanks.

    playing my klingon, early morning, i ran 25/25 (points/defeats), 5 Blues v 1 Red for the longest time. Know what killed me the most, the alien science player built to expose and detect stealth. The ones that died the most were the ones unable to detect stealth, or "a one of the trait given species."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Hpnestly, I've had really good luck with ground teams on my Fed. My Klingon has higher success rates, but I do better than 50/50 either way.

    When I don't see Feds sticking together, it's not exactly because they aren't trying to work together, it's usually an experience issue.

    When a lucky shot vaporizes you and your team mates are left fighting, you can do one of three things: wait for the team to revive you, respawn and run back into the fight, or respawn and avoid the other team while looking for a place to regroup. Each answer is the right one in certain circumstances, but if you choose incorrectly you end up split from your team. Even if you run right back to where the team was fighting, if the rest of the team died while you were running then all you're doing is charging the enemy by yourself.

    When to fight and when to run is also an experience thing. I see a lot of teams get split up because someone ran at the wrong time, or didn't run when they should have. If it's 2 feds versus 2 klinks then we might as well fight and hope the rest of the team catches up (unless we're already close to the rest of the team). But I often get left alone because the rest of my team ran from an even fight. On the other hand, if it's 2 of us versus 5 of them, my partner had better run, because I'm going to -- I might draw fire a bit and maybe try and hold 1 or 2 first, but I will run.

    I see a lot of feds not pressing the attack too. Klingons constantly press toward the enemy, and on the Klingon side if I start chasing down Feds as the run, my whole team comes with me. On the Fed side, the team is likely to just hold their ground.

    I think it's just experience making the difference. I know what Klingon players will do, but they're almost all veteran PvPers. Feds are a mixed bag. There are an awful lot of feds who are brand new to PvP, but a lot of the most serious PvPers on the Fed side mostly play ground because it's easier than space, so the fed ground players are likely to be at either extreme.





    When queues are uneven, I'll either sit out or look for 1-1s if my side has the numbers. If I'm alone, then I'll do 1-1s or 1-2s, but any more than that and I'll just refuse to respawn until there are more players on my team. It's not exactly out of spite that I don't respawn; I just don't want the score to get so badly skewed that we can't win when I get more team-mates in. Even if I lose a lot in 1-1s, we're still only likely to be behind by 3 or 4 points when the rest of the team comes in.
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