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Varous weapon loadouts?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I have a few questions about the weapon load outs. I realize every time you post on a forum you are opening yourself up for some insidious flamer. However bear in mind these are just questions asked as a learning tool. Warning this will probably be a long read. If your attention skills are lacking you probably should move on.

Based on my present knowledge of the game and what i researched before hand about the different ships and weapons load outs I obviously developed a preconceived notion of how each system should work. Then started planning my strategy/build consecutively. However I quickly became frustrated because the information that was introduced seems to be inaccurate. I didn't realize this as much as i did last night when a player informed me that indeed the information i received was incorrect. That I should right click on all the different weapon types themselves and read the info section on them instead of the information that is put out there. I was a little surprised at the difference.

Here is where i am heading with this. I had started my builds around containing weapon systems that combined platforms that focused on both eliminating shields and keeping them down while using the other two attack the hull when the shields are down. So on my Heavy escort I run 3 plasma beam arrays and two disruptor beam arrays with the corresponding bo's and ship console/devices to enhance the output. Obviously my logic was thinking the 3 plasma attack the shields and keep them down while the disruptor beams do their job. I prefer beams on escorts cause they attack from any angle and i don't always have to be facing front or towards my enemy. Plus if i attack from the side i can have as many as 4 beams hitting at once.

However here is the problem. I encountered some klingon ships last night using with all disruptor cannon load outs. Maybe three heavy disruptor cannons on front, disruptor turrets on back, etc. They were ripping through my shields in just one or two hits. I am running shields that have 5% absorbtion and 5% bleed through. Doesn't seem to matter. Even the ships well below my level ripping through using nothing but disruptor load outs like nothing. Ripping through shields faster then my plasma beam arrays that are designed for that very task.

Now this frustrated me because logically thinking disruptors are supposed to be weak against shields how are they ripping through shields in only one or two hits every time. I am not talking about being hit from several ships either. Just one ship, ripping through with disruptors like they were not even there.

So after getting frustrated, taking the persons advice and actually reading the info listed for each weapon i quickly learned disruptors are just every bit as effective taking down shields as phasers and plasma weapons are. Which leads me to my question. Why in the hell do we even need the other weapon systems in the first place?

Why does one even need plasma or phasers that are specifically designed to take out shields since disruptors are supposed to be weak against shields, strong against hulls? Yet they can rip through your shields in just a few short hits? I might as well not even have shields at all..

I ask because this is a learning curve question. What's the point of using tactics I imply where i try to get out of the 45 degree arc of the disruptor cannons and attack from the side, when i'm dead before i can even get there. One to three hits, shields gone, then boom.

I understand respec is coming soon but what is the point of having spent all this time building a certain build to work within the context of the various weapons systems, great against shields, some better against hulls when the one that is supposed to be weak against shields are more effective then the ones that are?

Tetryon weap's are suppose to ignore shields and damage the hull. So i experimented with an all tetron build. 3 dual tet's, two tetryon turrents, 3 +18 to tetryon weapon tactical consoles. I come up behind an enemy ship, open up on them and they maneuver around and blow the hell out of you with disruptor load outs.

So again, what the heck is the point? I feel like i wasted days and weeks of my time on systems that don't really work as intended or a very less effective then all disruptor load outs that are supposed to be the weakest against shields in the first place.. Why even bother with anything else?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Well, for one if you like beams you may be happier in a science ship than an escort. Trust me i've tried a beam escort and ended up paying up to get a new ship because it was so frustrating trying to keep it alive (especially with limited enginering and science skill slots).

    As to your point about weapon types, they're supposed to be largely interchangable. The different types are mostly different damage types, and the secondary effects are meant to be realatively miner. So really you can choose your weapon type based as much on what you have/what you abitrarily like as any practical concideration. Personally i'm mostly a plasma wielder, because i like seeing my enemys burn.

    As to disruptors being weak against shields i'm not sure where you got that. Their debuff effect only applies to hull resistances (so i'm told), but they do as much damage to shields as any other weapon of the same firing arc (with the exception of tetrion which have a chance to do extra shield damage). So plasma and disruptos will drop a shield in the same amount of time, just what they do to the hull differes (dot, vs a debuff).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You seem to have had a very frustrating experience due to putting so much time and effort into your weapon builds and theories and then finding out that your ideas on how things worked weren't how they really were. You have my sympathy for the situation you are in.

    Despite things not working the way you thought they should, please do not think that there aren't a lot of very interesting, strategic, and tactical decisions to be made regarding weapon types chosen. You seem to have jumped on the whole "they all do the same damage, why bother using different ones?" train of thought due to your frustration, but that's completely opposite from how the system really works.

    All energy beam weapons of the same type (beam arrays, dual beam banks, etc) may deal the same damage, but the differences in damage types (phaser, disruptor, etc) determine what special bonus effects the damage does.

    And really, it's not so different from what you were thinking. Here's are some pages with all the info you should read:

    http://stowiki.org/wiki/Starship_weapons

    http://stowiki.org/wiki/Damage_types

    This gives MANY different weapon choices, all of which make a sort of logical sense. Phasers are more accurate, so they have a small chance of hitting subsystems and disabling weapons or engines or whatnot. Tetryon weapons, as you mentioned, were historically very effective against Federation shields before the DS9 crew adapted to them and modified shields to resist so they no longer instantly penetrated. This is represented in game by a chance to deal bonus damage against shields. Plasma beams have a chance to start plasma fires, which deal hull damage. And so on and so forth.

    There are some great debates going on about which weapon types to use, and when, and where. Don't get discouraged. For example, some people like to use Tetryon Turrets in an aft slot due to them constantly firing with a 360-degree firing arc, giving a better chance to activate that extra-shield-damage proc. Some like Polaron and Disruptor beam arrays to weaken enemy power levels and damage resistance for a more controlled fight.

    To be fair, the game didn't tell you any of this. You came to your conclusions on your own. I don't know where you read that in STO the Disruptor weapons are ineffective vs. shields but effective vs. hull, however I know many sources that have said all energy weapons are fully effective vs. shields and hull, and projectiles such as torpedoes and mines only deal 25% damage against shields and 100% against hull. Torpedoes of course also have different types, with different cooldowns and special effects as well, but that's another post.

    Finally, you've cited examples where some Escort vessels were tearing your shields apart. Well, no surprise there. That's what they do. High burst damage, lots of forward firepower, and Bridge Officer abilities that buff them to extreme burst damage levels. But what you need to realize is that you have many ways to counter them. Reverse Shield Polarity will transfer incoming energy weapon damage into shield strength for 15 seconds. So much for THAT alpha strike. Jam/Scramble targeting sensors will make them unable to fire at you at all, so you can wait for their buffs to wear off and be on cooldown. Viral Matrix shuts them down completely for a short time. Feedback Pulse will deal hull damage to them directly based on the damage they do to you. They'd kill themselves with their own powerful attacks.

    Long story short, there are tons of tactics and amazing customization and strategy elements to this game. They weren't the ones you had initially thought, no. But they ARE still a lot of fun. I encourage you to explore them all now that you've put yourself on the right track with the right info.

    That wiki site I linked to should help with that if you need more info.

    Hope this helped!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    TechDragon wrote: »
    You seem to have had a very frustrating experience due to putting so much time and effort into your weapon builds and theories and then finding out that your ideas on how things worked weren't how they really were. You have my sympathy for the situation you are in.

    Despite things not working the way you thought they should, please do not think that there aren't a lot of very interesting, strategic, and tactical decisions to be made regarding weapon types chosen. You seem to have jumped on the whole "they all do the same damage, why bother using different ones?" train of thought due to your frustration, but that's completely opposite from how the system really works.

    All energy beam weapons of the same type (beam arrays, dual beam banks, etc) may deal the same damage, but the differences in damage types (phaser, disruptor, etc) determine what special bonus effects the damage does.

    And really, it's not so different from what you were thinking. Here's are some pages with all the info you should read:

    http://stowiki.org/wiki/Starship_weapons

    http://stowiki.org/wiki/Damage_types

    This gives MANY different weapon choices, all of which make a sort of logical sense. Phasers are more accurate, so they have a small chance of hitting subsystems and disabling weapons or engines or whatnot. Tetryon weapons, as you mentioned, were historically very effective against Federation shields before the DS9 crew adapted to them and modified shields to resist so they no longer instantly penetrated. This is represented in game by a chance to deal bonus damage against shields. Plasma beams have a chance to start plasma fires, which deal hull damage. And so on and so forth.

    There are some great debates going on about which weapon types to use, and when, and where. Don't get discouraged. For example, some people like to use Tetryon Turrets in an aft slot due to them constantly firing with a 360-degree firing arc, giving a better chance to activate that extra-shield-damage proc. Some like Polaron and Disruptor beam arrays to weaken enemy power levels and damage resistance for a more controlled fight.

    To be fair, the game didn't tell you any of this. You came to your conclusions on your own. I don't know where you read that in STO the Disruptor weapons are ineffective vs. shields but effective vs. hull, however I know many sources that have said all energy weapons are fully effective vs. shields and hull, and projectiles such as torpedoes and mines only deal 25% damage against shields and 100% against hull. Torpedoes of course also have different types, with different cooldowns and special effects as well, but that's another post.

    Finally, you've cited examples where some Escort vessels were tearing your shields apart. Well, no surprise there. That's what they do. High burst damage, lots of forward firepower, and Bridge Officer abilities that buff them to extreme burst damage levels. But what you need to realize is that you have many ways to counter them. Reverse Shield Polarity will transfer incoming energy weapon damage into shield strength for 15 seconds. So much for THAT alpha strike. Jam/Scramble targeting sensors will make them unable to fire at you at all, so you can wait for their buffs to wear off and be on cooldown. Viral Matrix shuts them down completely for a short time. Feedback Pulse will deal hull damage to them directly based on the damage they do to you. They'd kill themselves with their own powerful attacks.

    Long story short, there are tons of tactics and amazing customization and strategy elements to this game. They weren't the ones you had initially thought, no. But they ARE still a lot of fun. I encourage you to explore them all now that you've put yourself on the right track with the right info.

    That wiki site I linked to should help with that if you need more info.

    Hope this helped!

    Tech,

    Yes that did help out. I helped out so much that i tossed my fed tac officer to start over now that i have a much better understanding of the game. That wasn't easy, my fed/tac officer kicked major tail in ground pvp. I could have just waited for respec but I like learning things from the ground up.

    So thanks for all your help, insight and information. The only question i have is, where were you two weeks ago.. = P.

    thanks again.

    Kelm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    What exactly is the problem with a "beam" escort?
    I was thinking of trying it on mine.
    Does it suffer from power distribution problems?
    I can't see how the shields can be any worse than they are now to keep up.
    Does it just not have enough DPS without cannons?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    What exactly is the problem with a "beam" escort?
    I was thinking of trying it on mine.
    Does it suffer from power distribution problems?
    I can't see how the shields can be any worse than they are now to keep up.
    Does it just not have enough DPS without cannons?

    Roach,

    The problem with a beam escort is the escort is designed to produce the highest dps with concentrated fire from the front. The problem with that lies in the shields. If you have a tac officer in an escort your frontal shields drop faster than a prom dress. So you can't stop the escort, you always have to keep it moving. I have to use evasive maneuvers in combination with ramming speed to use hit and run tactics and many times it doesn't matter.

    Why? Well when ever klinks see an escort it is automatically targeted first every time. My train of thought to counter this was not to use cannon weapons but use beams and attack from the side instead of the front. From the side you can have up to 4 beams or more depending on your rank all hitting at once.

    The problem resides again in escorts are targeted first. So unless you happen to get lucky and another escort is being targeted you don't live long enough even to make it to the side. The other problem is with cloaking, beams don't seem to have the finishing power to finish off a bird that cloaks. The burst damage just isn't enough. So i find with beams they escape more often then not.

    So unless you have a good team all assisting and targeting the same ship you aren't going to live very long. I have come to think of escorts as just a ship that is there to provide as much dps as possible to a ship being targeted by your entire team just trying to put as much damage to it as possible before you get blown up and your teamats can finish it off.

    Even with esp, rsp, eps, shield batteries, etc, if you have two or more birds all targeting you, your dead in a matter of seconds. So might as just go with it, load the escort with as much burst dps damage as you can muster and go with it. A tac officer in an escort even with the best bo's just can't keep shields up long enough to worrying about surviving very long. Add in the weakest hulls on any ship and you might as just put on a space suit and run around..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kelmvor wrote:
    Roach,

    The problem with a beam escort is the escort is designed to produce the highest dps with concentrated fire from the front. The problem with that lies in the shields. If you have a tac officer in an escort your frontal shields drop faster than a prom dress. So you can't stop the escort, you always have to keep it moving. I have to use evasive maneuvers in combination with ramming speed to use hit and run tactics and many times it doesn't matter.

    Why? Well when ever klinks see an escort it is automatically targeted first every time. My train of thought to counter this was not to use cannon weapons but use beams and attack from the side instead of the front. From the side you can have up to 4 beams or more depending on your rank all hitting at once.

    The problem resides again in escorts are targeted first. So unless you happen to get lucky and another escort is being targeted you don't live long enough even to make it to the side. The other problem is with cloaking, beams don't seem to have the finishing power to finish off a bird that cloaks. The burst damage just isn't enough. So i find with beams they escape more often then not.

    So unless you have a good team all assisting and targeting the same ship you aren't going to live very long. I have come to think of escorts as just a ship that is there to provide as much dps as possible to a ship being targeted by your entire team just trying to put as much damage to it as possible before you get blown up and your teamats can finish it off.

    Even with esp, rsp, eps, shield batteries, etc, if you have two or more birds all targeting you, your dead in a matter of seconds. So might as just go with it, load the escort with as much burst dps damage as you can muster and go with it. A tac officer in an escort even with the best bo's just can't keep shields up long enough to worrying about surviving very long. Add in the weakest hulls on any ship and you might as just put on a space suit and run around..

    Sounds like the "glass cannon" principal is being over-used in relation to escorts. I was under the impression that an escort is designed to take a pounding, replete with redundent sytems and suppossed to be a lot tougher than it is now. These things were designed to fight Borg, right?
    I would like the Dev's to give Escorts a better hull dammage resistance to reflect the tougher nature and design of the vessel.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    Sounds like the "glass cannon" principal is being over-used in relation to escorts. I was under the impression that an escort is designed to take a pounding, replete with redundent sytems and suppossed to be a lot tougher than it is now. These things were designed to fight Borg, right?
    I would like the Dev's to give Escorts a better hull dammage resistance to reflect the tougher nature and design of the vessel.

    I tend to agree, if we take the Deffiant as the iconic escort, they should be the toughest and most heavily armed ship classes in the game, balanced by limited bridge officer versatility. After all we see the Deffiant destroy other races main line warships easily, and several charcters comment about it being a "tough little ship". A deffiant class ship even pulled off a double KO with one of the dominion's largest and most deadly warships. The down side is because they are built only for combat they don't have all the fancy labratories, holodecks, and other "luxuries" that can be mcguivered into lateral-thinking solutions (bridge officer skills).

    In game terms this should mean: escorts have exelent hull and average shields (the level of shields cruiser have now), and are the only cannon-equipable classes, but in exchange their non-tactical BO slots are a level lower than they would be on another class. I also think science ships should have the weekest shields, and cruisers the strongest, but that's another issue.

    I think a lot of the actual stats of escorts are an unfortunate result of heavy handed niche-protection, and the expectation that dps "classes" have to be fragile to balance them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Turtlewing wrote: »

    In game terms this should mean: escorts have exelent hull and average shields (the level of shields cruiser have now), and are the only cannon-equipable classes, but in exchange their non-tactical BO slots are a level lower than they would be on another class. I also think science ships should have the weekest shields, and cruisers the strongest, but that's another issue.

    .

    I like this idea. It makes a lot of sense.
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