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Multi Vector Assault mode, anyone?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I was wondering... I play a tactical, escort captain (RA) and noticed something wrong with the T5 Prometheus escort. Specifically, it seems to be lacking the multi vector assault mode.

From Memory Alpha:

"A unique feature included in the Prometheus design was the multi-vector assault mode, which allowed the ship to split into three semi-independent sections that could each deliver massive force against an enemy target. All three sections were warp-capable. In this mode, the Prometheus could easily disable a Nebula-class at warp, or a D'deridex-class on the field of battle. (VOY: "Message in a Bottle") "

Now, Science officers get photonic fleet - the ability to temporarily create two additional ships to assist them... will we seep-space tactical admirals be able to use the MVA mode in the Prometheus-based ships? Can we and I just haven't noticed it?

And, while we're at it, how about saucer sep for cruisers?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There is a piece in game that explains that the multi vector assault mode for the Prometheus class was removed from the ship design due to some problem with it. If you access the tier database for the ship, it tells you there.

    It would have been cool to see it in game, as well as the saucer separation for the Galaxy class, but I think it would have created a few design problems for the devs so they left it out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    it's basically just that they are lazy and couldn't be bothered adding it because they are incompetant.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    It would not be as easy as you think to implement.

    Not for the implementation itself, but setting it up to be;

    1; Easy and intuitive to control

    2; Properly balanced

    3; Making it work with the current equipment system

    These would be rather difficult.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Errm, not to be one to pee on your fire, but you could easily implement it as a pet system in pretty much every other MMO...

    Just a thought.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    BACONSAH wrote:
    Errm, not to be one to pee on your fire, but you could easily implement it as a pet system in pretty much every other MMO...

    Just a thought.

    Well the trouble again is with how to properly control the ship sections.

    Thats not to say it isn't possible though, it would just require a lot more resources than it (may or may not) be worth.

    The other big issue is equipment.

    This is the one I don't see a way around.

    How do you ensure each section is properly equipped based on the weapons and items you have placed on your original integrated ship?

    And what do you do if one section is destroyed and the others survive?

    You couldn't re-integrate.

    And what if your section is destroyed but the other two aren't?

    Can you imagine making all this work with the PvP mechanic?

    Nightmare. Stuff of nightmares.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WOW, overreaction there..

    Every other PvP MMO has this type of mechanic as a pet, realistically it would work the same.

    Equipment?

    Well, if it located on the 'pet' then it's on the pet for that time, and beams/debuffs/whatever comes from the pet's location.

    if it's a whole ship, then it's joined to the main, it is just one item the skill still remains on the bar, I don't see your issue. Nor the complexity.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ive said it b4 and ill say it again. If carriers can have entire squadrons of ships there is no reason why you could "spawn" a few "segments" of your hull and have them attack somone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    BACONSAH wrote:
    WOW, overreaction there..

    Every other PvP MMO has this type of mechanic as a pet, realistically it would work the same.

    Equipment?

    Well, if it located on the 'pet' then it's on the pet for that time, and beams/debuffs/whatever comes from the pet's location.

    if it's a whole ship, then it's joined to the main, it is just one item the skill still remains on the bar, I don't see your issue. Nor the complexity.

    No, they don't have this type of mechanic as a pet. Name one that has this particular kind of mechanic?

    This is far more complex than just a pet. It's not one character that summons pets... it's one character (your ship is that character) that breaks itself apart into many pieces. And your answer to the equipment problem is woefully lacking.

    There is also the issue of power management. Your ship is now many ships. How do you properly manage all of their power?

    And the question still remains - what happens if part of the ship is destroyed, but not the whole ship?
    Bus_Driver wrote:
    Ive said it b4 and ill say it again. If carriers can have entire squadrons of ships there is no reason why you could "spawn" a few "segments" of your hull and have them attack somone.

    Still does not apply. A carrier is launching separate ships from within itself. The Prometheus is breaking itself apart.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Bus_Driver wrote:
    Ive said it b4 and ill say it again. If carriers can have entire squadrons of ships there is no reason why you could "spawn" a few "segments" of your hull and have them attack somone.

    the best suggestion i've read for this is to do it like this:

    escorts get an innate ability (like where science ships can target subsystems) and these ability is MVAM - Attack Pattern <XYZ>

    player presses button for whatever attack pattern they want, temporarily lose control of their ship, ship splits apart, gains a buff and automatically fires on whatever their target was or the nearest target or a bunch of targets depending on what the attack pattern was. after a few secs the ship goes back together and you regain control.

    simples.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    it's basically just that they are lazy and couldn't be bothered adding it because they are incompetant.

    Hey, that was helpful! Thanks! :rolleyes:

    I realized I double posted this (a similar thread in the Escort Ships thread) but I really want to get dev feedback on it if I can. I appreciate (most of) the feedback so far…

    For me, every T5 ship should have a distinctive advantage as, well, they are classified ship classes, after all.

    And, again, if I can’t have photonic fleet then I want my MVA mode… not enough to rant on and on about it, but I have to agree – it seems the base programming is there but and the database in ship selection DOES mention this capability in some fashion, so perhaps it’s coming down the line… as only Cryptic knows for certain, again, Dev feedback would be very appreciated.
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    the best suggestion i've read for this is to do it like this:

    escorts get an innate ability (like where science ships can target subsystems) and these ability is MVAM - Attack Pattern <XYZ>

    player presses button for whatever attack pattern they want, temporarily lose control of their ship, ship splits apart, gains a buff and automatically fires on whatever their target was or the nearest target or a bunch of targets depending on what the attack pattern was. after a few secs the ship goes back together and you regain control.

    simples.

    THIS, on the other hand, IS helpful... I like that idea. A lot.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    No, they don't have this type of mechanic as a pet. Name one that has this particular kind of mechanic?

    This is far more complex than just a pet. It's not one character that summons pets... it's one character (your ship is that character) that breaks itself apart into many pieces. And your answer to the equipment problem is woefully lacking.

    There is also the issue of power management. Your ship is now many ships. How do you properly manage all of their power?

    And the question still remains - what happens if part of the ship is destroyed, but not the whole ship?



    Still does not apply. A carrier is launching separate ships from within itself. The Prometheus is breaking itself apart.

    You're overcomplicating something simple, as Intrepidox explains, it's basically a pet mechanic, if it has to split then it has to have its own power, else they wouldn't fire, it's a timed assault, if it lasts the duration of a battle then the weapon and power requirements are a specific dependant on the main power system you install. For example, why would you install a major power plant and not upgrade the sub plants to support their firing/subsystems? - stop producing problems where there are none. It's just a pet mechanic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    And the question still remains - what happens if part of the ship is destroyed, but not the whole ship?

    looks like I have to think of everything.

    if 1 or 2 parts are destroyed before re-forming, your ship loses 30% hull for each part lost when it re-forms. all 3 parts destroyed? well, then your ship was destroyed and you respawn.

    simples.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07eyG5l7dVE
    Because it is awesome.
    What i think they could do is just make it a 10 minute cooldown ability that lasts like 20 seconds.
    After the 20 seconds reintegration will be automatic.
    The only problem with this is, what happens when the "pet" sections of the ship get destroyed?

    EDIT: Intrepidox solution above me seems very reasonable
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    It would be more complicated than that. It's not just a simple pet mechanic, while it may follow the same movement and control patterns as a pet would, there is the power and weapon requirements for it.

    You'd have the one ship, the original starting combination would have to supply the power for all three sections, then you'd have to have weapons for all three segments of the ship.
    With the slots available on a ship that the game allows you wouldn't be able to do it. They would have to triple the number of slots to allow you to equip each section. Which still doesn't address the power for each section.

    There would be more to it than just a simple pet mechanic as suggested. It would cause problems to introduce it to the game and makes sense for them to have left it out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    paddoxx wrote: »
    It would be more complicated than that. It's not just a simple pet mechanic, while it may follow the same movement and control patterns as a pet would, there is the power and weapon requirements for it.

    You'd have the one ship, the original starting combination would have to supply the power for all three sections, then you'd have to have weapons for all three segments of the ship.
    With the slots available on a ship that the game allows you wouldn't be able to do it. They would have to triple the number of slots to allow you to equip each section. Which still doesn't address the power for each section.

    There would be more to it than just a simple pet mechanic as suggested. It would cause problems to introduce it to the game and makes sense for them to have left it out.

    why are you over-complicating it? have to supply power for all three sections??? what are you talking about, that's just a line of code in the game, we're not talking about a real world scenario here o_o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    paddoxx wrote: »
    It would be more complicated than that. It's not just a simple pet mechanic, while it may follow the same movement and control patterns as a pet would, there is the power and weapon requirements for it.

    You'd have the one ship, the original starting combination would have to supply the power for all three sections, then you'd have to have weapons for all three segments of the ship.
    With the slots available on a ship that the game allows you wouldn't be able to do it. They would have to triple the number of slots to allow you to equip each section. Which still doesn't address the power for each section.

    There would be more to it than just a simple pet mechanic as suggested. It would cause problems to introduce it to the game and makes sense for them to have left it out.

    Exactly! you nailed it.

    Now a short almost cinematic/power like system as Intrepidox suggested has merit but there are still two issues I can see with it.

    1; Is there a mechanic in place or implementable without causing a migrane whereby each section would fire the proper looking weapon SFX based on the original hull's equipment?

    2; Could it be balanced properly? Essentially the ship would have to be 100% immune for those few seconds, essentially granting you a totally uber-immunity-attack-of-doom for a certain period.
    Can that be balanced in properly?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    why are you over-complicating it? have to supply power for all three sections??? what are you talking about, that's just a line of code in the game, we're not talking about a real world scenario here o_o

    I'm talking about in game. You only have a set amount of power for your ship in game. If your ship splits into three, the power is split between the three. So the point stands. Your weapons wouldn't be as effective, sheilds, engines, none of them would be as strong. So it still presents a problem. You'd be taking the power from one ship and splitting it between three basically.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    paddoxx wrote: »
    It would be more complicated than that. It's not just a simple pet mechanic, while it may follow the same movement and control patterns as a pet would, there is the power and weapon requirements for it.

    You'd have the one ship, the original starting combination would have to supply the power for all three sections, then you'd have to have weapons for all three segments of the ship.
    With the slots available on a ship that the game allows you wouldn't be able to do it. They would have to triple the number of slots to allow you to equip each section. Which still doesn't address the power for each section.

    There would be more to it than just a simple pet mechanic as suggested. It would cause problems to introduce it to the game and makes sense for them to have left it out.

    Why would the original ship have to supply power to all the sections, to be perfectly honest, if I was and yeah I know it's not REAL - to build a ship that had parts that could be independantly run, I certainly wouldn't make it's power relient on the one main power source...

    As I stated previously.

    Again, it's a simple thing, stop overcomplicating it.

    If they have to draw power from the main, then they can't seperate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ok, as a follow up, as they split off, your 'main' power reduces.

    there...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    If this was in the game, I'd buy it again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Exactly! you nailed it.

    Now a short almost cinematic/power like system as Intrepidox suggested has merit but there are still two issues I can see with it.

    1; Is there a mechanic in place or implementable without causing a migrane whereby each section would fire the proper looking weapon SFX based on the original hull's equipment?

    2; Could it be balanced properly? Essentially the ship would have to be 100% immune for those few seconds, essentially granting you a totally uber-immunity-attack-of-doom for a certain period.
    Can that be balanced in properly?
    It would be just as balanced as Photonic fleet imo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Still same problem. In the game your power supply is 100, you have your ship separate you've got to split that power supply between three separate ships really. You couldn't do it.

    If, say, each sections power is reduced down to a third of its maximum, 33, your only going to be able to run for three or four seconds before your ship comes to a stop. Your weapons stop working, engines slow down and your shields become like paper.

    They'd have to introduce something else to allow you to put in three separate power supplies on your ship, so that when it does separate each ship has its own power source. Then they'd have to implement something to stop you using those extra power sources while your ship is whole, otherwise the Prometheus would have an unfair advantage over all other ships in the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Personally I am not for MVA. It might make good story telling but it doesn't make much tactical sense. Sure, you 3 new mini ships to fight with but you make yourself vulnerable to things in game like scramble sensors. PVP wise it wouldn't make sense cause the opponent would just ignore the other ships and target your main.


    From a Star Trek sense, it never really made that much sense either. No matter how you did it the power for the ship whole would out class your power divided. Like I said MVA has a cool factor but it otherwise pointless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    BACONSAH wrote:
    Why would the original ship have to supply power to all the sections, to be perfectly honest, if I was and yeah I know it's not REAL - to build a ship that had parts that could be independantly run, I certainly wouldn't make it's power relient on the one main power source...

    As I stated previously.

    Again, it's a simple thing, stop overcomplicating it.

    If they have to draw power from the main, then they can't seperate.

    Allright, let me try to give you the complications of the full-blown system play by play shall I?

    Imagine for a moment we are trying to program this in as a workable system.

    Your player hits MVAM button. What has to happen?

    1; animation and sound; this part shouldn't be too hard. The original hull model is instantly replaced with the three stacked sections which then break and attack giving the nice illusion of a split.

    2; Equipment/power/hull. What determines how many emitters/torpedoes each section has?
    Even if we assume a, say, 30% drop in power for each section (they all have their own warpcores, but each is smaller than the combined might of the system) and a 20% drop in hull for each over the base number....
    What about the guns? We can even assume somehow that the shield emitter type, deflector type, and engine type are inherited from the parent and that each section gains a maneuverability bonus.

    This still does not answer the weapons question.

    3; If there was a magic solution to the weapons, what happens when one of the 'pet' sections is destroyed?

    4; What happens if your control section is destroyed?

    5; in lieu of the above how does respawn work? how do you get back one or more of the sections if they are destroyed but you survive past the battle?
    What happens if your section is destroyed and you hit respawn but the other two weren't destroyed?

    6; Assuming all sections survive there would also have to be a system made to properly distribute damage to hull and shield remaining across the three sections back into the main unit.

    Lastly, you can't actually assume the mechanics for any of this already exist.
    They may well not.

    Now how much of a headache do you think making this system would be?

    I'm probably not even aware of half a dozen other interactions with other mechanics and systems in STO which would make this 10 times more complex still. :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    it's basically just that they are lazy and couldn't be bothered adding it because they are incompetant.

    Haha. I can assume you know how to do it, then?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07eyG5l7dVE
    Because it is awesome.
    What i think they could do is just make it a 10 minute cooldown ability that lasts like 20 seconds.
    After the 20 seconds reintegration will be automatic.
    The only problem with this is, what happens when the "pet" sections of the ship get destroyed?

    EDIT: Intrepidox solution above me seems very reasonable

    And now I want even more... thank you SO very much....

    I like the idea that each section of the ship consists of roughly 33% total ship hull strnegh and, to be fair, shield strength on each is reduced 33% as well.

    20 seconds is more than enough... but I'd call for a longer cooldown.. perhaps even as much as 180 seconds (3 mins)

    If it's powerful enough to present an actual threat to a Warbird, then it needs a sufficient cooldown.

    Then we run into the "other" issue: we have weapons slots… do these slots separate as well? Will my main hull carry phasers and cannons while the other two carry torpedoes, etc.?

    Ok, too much work… if I were to program it, I’d just use a standard beam attack for the secondary pieces and up the overall damage by say… 60%... that way no messing with individual weapon components.
    Allright, let me try to give you the complications of the full-blown system play by play shall I?

    Imagine for a moment we are trying to program this in as a workable system.

    Your player hits MVAM button. What has to happen?

    1; animation and sound; this part shouldn't be too hard. The original hull model is instantly replaced with the three stacked sections which then break and attack giving the nice illusion of a split.

    2; Equipment/power/hull. What determines how many emitters/torpedoes each section has?
    Even if we assume a, say, 30% drop in power for each section (they all have their own warpcores, but each is smaller than the combined might of the system) and a 20% drop in hull for each over the base number....
    What about the guns? We can even assume somehow that the shield emitter type, deflector type, and engine type are inherited from the parent and that each section gains a maneuverability bonus.

    This still does not answer the weapons question.

    3; If there was a magic solution to the weapons, what happens when one of the 'pet' sections is destroyed?

    4; What happens if your control section is destroyed?

    5; in lieu of the above how does respawn work? how do you get back one or more of the sections if they are destroyed but you survive past the battle?
    What happens if your section is destroyed and you hit respawn but the other two weren't destroyed?

    6; Assuming all sections survive there would also have to be a system made to properly distribute damage to hull and shield remaining across the three sections back into the main unit.

    Lastly, you can't actually assume the mechanics for any of this already exist.
    They may well not.

    Now how much of a headache do you think making this system would be?

    I'm probably not even aware of half a dozen other interactions with other mechanics and systems in STO which would make this 10 times more complex still. :eek:


    Maybe.. but you're overlooking that the MVA mode deals considerable damage to one or more targets. Yes, individually the parts may be more susceptible to attack, but if it can knock a fully armed and healthy warbird out of the stars is it not worth consideration?

    Additionally, and especially in pvp, we have assist ships to keep our shields up, etc. We’d be no tank, but we’d be able to punch a hole in just about any wall…
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    rorako wrote: »
    Haha. I can assume you know how to do it, then?

    i've already explained exactly how it could work flawlessly in about 2 posts, people just don't seem to be able to comprehend things.

    they also seem to enjoy just making up ridiculous scenario's to try and poke holes in the MVAM idea without actually thinking it through and realising there are simple solutions, probably because for some reason they don't want this ingame? though I can't see why. maybe they're just a bit "special"?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Allright, let me try to give you the complications of the full-blown system play by play shall I?

    Imagine for a moment we are trying to program this in as a workable system.

    Your player hits MVAM button. What has to happen?

    1; animation and sound; this part shouldn't be too hard. The original hull model is instantly replaced with the three stacked sections which then break and attack giving the nice illusion of a split.

    2; Equipment/power/hull. What determines how many emitters/torpedoes each section has?
    Even if we assume a, say, 30% drop in power for each section (they all have their own warpcores, but each is smaller than the combined might of the system) and a 20% drop in hull for each over the base number....
    What about the guns? We can even assume somehow that the shield emitter type, deflector type, and engine type are inherited from the parent and that each section gains a maneuverability bonus.

    This still does not answer the weapons question.

    3; If there was a magic solution to the weapons, what happens when one of the 'pet' sections is destroyed?

    4; What happens if your control section is destroyed?

    5; in lieu of the above how does respawn work? how do you get back one or more of the sections if they are destroyed but you survive past the battle?
    What happens if your section is destroyed and you hit respawn but the other two weren't destroyed?

    6; Assuming all sections survive there would also have to be a system made to properly distribute damage to hull and shield remaining across the three sections back into the main unit.

    Lastly, you can't actually assume the mechanics for any of this already exist.
    They may well not.

    Now how much of a headache do you think making this system would be?

    I'm probably not even aware of half a dozen other interactions with other mechanics and systems in STO which would make this 10 times more complex still. :eek:


    Imagine it like this:

    You want to have the ship split up and each section to be independant - now, also imagine this: it's a game... So.. how do you simplyfy it to be easy enough for people to use rather than the spotters that want to introduce all kinds of gizmo items to make it seem somehow real...

    So, no you don't have to introduce new sections for extra warp cores and such, you can assume they have the same level warp (but on a smaller scale) for each section, and portion it out - you can indeed assume specific weapon sections to be included in the 'split off' parts of the ship. And put it on a timer, as a skill such as Intrepidox has mentioned before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Preirin wrote:
    Ok, too much work… if I were to program it, I’d just use a standard beam attack for the secondary pieces and up the overall damage by say… 60%... that way no messing with individual weapon components.

    Now, that is the first possible solution to the weapons splitting I have seen.

    But it still presents its share of complications.

    There has to be a way to both set the beams on the 'pets' to be your main beam choice, and disable a portion of your own beam weapons without disabling them all.

    What happens if you only have one beam emitter?

    Or none?

    Still, a good starting place for ideas anyways.

    Unfortunately it still leaves the sections themselves and re-spawning and that whole nightmare.....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    BACONSAH wrote:
    Imagine it like this:

    You want to have the ship split up and each section to be independant - now, also imagine this: it's a game... So.. how do you simplyfy it to be easy enough for people to use rather than the spotters that want to introduce all kinds of gizmo items to make it seem somehow real...

    So, no you don't have to introduce new sections for extra warp cores and such, you can assume they have the same level warp (but on a smaller scale) for each section, and portion it out - you can indeed assume specific weapon sections to be included in the 'split off' parts of the ship. And put it on a timer, as a skill such as Intrepidox has mentioned before.

    yesssssss finally someone else gets it.
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