test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Um, ground PvP..... not fun.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
First off exploits/exposes need to go, just in ONE match I can't count the number of times on my fingers I've been vaporized or have vaporized someone within 7sec of entering combat. Not only that but it completely renders healing absolutely worthless. If anything remove the big honking "kill me im open" sign so that every freaking person on the map doesn't know to "Hey!! lolol vaporize the one with the bullzeye, free kill looloolollo". Or only the one who exposed can exploit that target. Or be hold immune while exposed so you can at least attempt to take cover.. This "headshot" should be FAR more rare than it is now, not every 10secs.

Second, respawn points seriously need to be looked at, 80% of the time your put on the opposite side of the map from your teammates which basically means free point for the opposing team. And the other 20% you respawn right between 2+ opponents only to be held, exploited, turned into dust.... before you can even move.

Third, the map on multiple floor zones is really TRIBBLE, you think teammates are right in front of you, but turn out to be on the next floor down... You think an enemy is coming around the corner so you blow your CD's ready to jump em, only to realize he's on the next floor up regardless of what your map says.

Fourth, not only do we have to put up with the retardedness of all that, but we get the joy of listening to the opposing team trash talking to us. -_- Which in a star trek theme really twists me.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Science Officers get a heal over time that cures exposes on each tick.

    Tacticals get kits that provide resist buffs to people who stay near them (Overwatch radius should really be increased, but the effect is nice).

    Engineers can repair shields, which helps survive exploit shots and I believe this also gives you resists, which also helps you survive exploit shots.

    If an ally sees that you've been exposed, they can run up to the enemy and try and get off a rifle butt to interrupt their next shot and stun them while some medic hopefully cures you. Stun pistols help buy time for an ally, too.



    I would like to see exploit damage lowered a bit but the bottom line for now is that there ARE things that can be done to keep your PvP group from being wiped out by mass exposes.

    The problem, I guess, is that the biggest ways to cut down expose deaths relies on smart teammates. That can be hard to come by...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You have 1 valid point in your post, regarding the respawn points, everything else is a QQ . Exploit/expose has to be in-game otherwise you will not kill anyone,get to T5 and try to kill a healer or an engineer without using the exploit attack. Maps are fine by me, never had a trouble figuring out who is where. Trash talking, is this your first time PvPing in the mmo ?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There's an interesting item in the Tribble release notes.
    Removed the hold and slow effect from exposes for players. Critters will still be affected.

    This will fix the only problem with expose/exploit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The_Stig wrote: »
    Trash talking, is this your first time PvPing in the mmo ?

    No, coming from WoW I've heard just about everything, from my own teammates, but that game is full of kids, I was hoping that in a star trek game ppl would be far more mature, guess I expect WAY to much from ppl eh?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I dont mind being vaporized. That is Star Trek. I do, however, feel some of the crowd control has way too long a duration. 10 seconds of being frozen, why not just have that a vaporize. All the long duration stuns are very unfun. I have a thick skin and just roll with it. But there isnt a match I play in where the conversation dosent turn to how terrible crowd control is. And no team mate is going to save you if you respawn far away from your team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Trekker88 wrote: »
    No, coming from WoW I've heard just about everything, from my own teammates, but that game is full of kids, I was hoping that in a star trek game ppl would be far more mature, guess I expect WAY to much from ppl eh?

    No, I fully understand you. There are some ****ers out there but you need to find a good group of friendly people and stick with them. You know the people that actually TALK in teamchat, that bother to say hello etc.

    I've had my own fair share of... colorful people out there but I did build up an impressive friends list of people that I do most my PvP/PvE content with.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Slamz wrote:
    Science Officers get a heal over time that cures exposes on each tick.

    Tacticals get kits that provide resist buffs to people who stay near them (Overwatch radius should really be increased, but the effect is nice).

    Engineers can repair shields, which helps survive exploit shots and I believe this also gives you resists, which also helps you survive exploit shots.

    If an ally sees that you've been exposed, they can run up to the enemy and try and get off a rifle butt to interrupt their next shot and stun them while some medic hopefully cures you. Stun pistols help buy time for an ally, too.

    While this is true it still does little to help, even if its an even 5v5 in a hallway, someone will always have a exploit attack off CD ready to hit it the instant the bullseye pops up, and not only that but everyone can see that person is exposed so of course they all gonna hit that target, even by some miracle you survive actual exploit itself your more than likely gonna die from the barrage of the other 4ppl shooting at you.

    One change I see is, It can keep the absurd amount of damage it does or even be a guaranteed kill, but have it so ONLY the person who caused the expose can see the "KILL ME" sign and/or exploit them. And/or lower the chance of exposes.

    I wouldn't mind them but they occur FAR to often, something like this should be a bit more rare and not be 90% cause of death. One could even argue that because they occur so often it looses the "BOOM head shot" feeling, *yawn* we vaporized 32ppl last game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The_Stig wrote: »
    You have 1 valid point in your post, regarding the respawn points, everything else is a QQ . Exploit/expose has to be in-game otherwise you will not kill anyone,get to T5 and try to kill a healer or an engineer without using the exploit attack. Maps are fine by me, never had a trouble figuring out who is where. Trash talking, is this your first time PvPing in the mmo ?

    Not only that, but EVERYONE has the ability to rescucitate.That means resurrect players who are down.Want to know how many times someone used it on me?Once.Stick around instead of respawning so quickly.That is if your team is competant enough to care.Better be prepared to move fast too once your up.Adapt or fall forever!LOL!

    On a side noted being vapourized is hilarious!Extra crispy!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Meynolt wrote: »
    No, I fully understand you. There are some ****ers out there but you need to find a good group of friendly people and stick with them. You know the people that actually TALK in teamchat, that bother to say hello etc.

    I've had my own fair share of... colorful people out there but I did build up an impressive friends list of people that I do most my PvP/PvE content with.

    I'm talking about how the chat isn't faction separated as it should be. I have yet to see trash talk from my own teammates, I have seen "trash talk" role-play style from a klingon, I quote "Haha, see you in Gre'Thor you honorless dogs!!" that kind of trash talk I enjoy, even encourage. But seeing "lol you guys suck #%^" coming from the opposing team really twists me. I can put up with teammate trashtalk, not opposing trashtalk. xD

    If anything they could keep cross faction chat, which they should and will for role-play sake but limit it to a 5-8 m/km distance, rather than zone wide.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    DCMS wrote: »
    Not only that, but EVERYONE has the ability to rescucitate.That means resurrect players who are down.Want to know how many times someone used it on me?Once.Stick around instead of respawning so quickly.That is if your team is competant enough to care.Better be prepared to move fast too once your up.Adapt or fall forever!LOL!

    On a side noted being vapourized is hilarious!Extra crispy!

    Yep, so you can be killed 2 sec later by a stray grenade and give an even free-er point to the enemy. :rolleyes: Needs a slightly longer immune, or a bump up in % of health, or bleed-through immune. Whats that? Heal? LOL no one carries a healing kit in PvP everyone gets one shot'ed. :rolleyes: Again back to my first argument. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You know, I find ground PVP frustrating many times, but not for any of the reasons said in the OP. I find it is frustrating because of the sheer amounts of holds, especially from melee attacks. If those melee holds disappeared entirely, possibly replaced by short snares, I think it would be much more fun.

    I have to say though, my squishy tactical officer is rarely killed by expose/exploits, and I rarely kill with expose/exploits too. It sucks when they happen because I'm stuck there doing nothing, but they aren't nearly as common as claimed. And even then I've lived through exploit attacks as a squishy tactical officer. I also get most of my kills via the old fashioned way, by burning through someone's HP, not expose/exploit.

    Learning the maps is very important, and situational awareness is really much more important than anything else in PVP. They certainly were difficult to learn when I started out too, but after a while, it became second nature to figure out what level someone is on in ghost ship and deserted facility, and that awareness is very important. You have to be able to look at the map and figure out where the enemies are, where they are going, and how that could cause a problem for you and your team, and that's just something that takes time to learn.

    And as for the trash talk, that is what the ignore feature is for. I've ignored plenty of idiots who do that stuff. Honestly its really pretty rare, but if its a problem, just put them on ignore. Those kinds of people aren't the ones I like to play with anyways, so its no loss to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Trekker88 wrote: »
    While this is true it still does little to help, even if its an even 5v5 in a hallway, someone will always have a exploit attack off CD ready to hit it the instant the bullseye pops up, and not only that but everyone can see that person is exposed so of course they all gonna hit that target, even by some miracle you survive actual exploit itself your more than likely gonna die from the barrage of the other 4ppl shooting at you.

    One change I see is, It can keep the absurd amount of damage it does or even be a guaranteed kill, but have it so ONLY the person who caused the expose can see the "KILL ME" sign and/or exploit them. And/or lower the chance of exposes.

    I wouldn't mind them but they occur FAR to often, something like this should be a bit more rare and not be 90% cause of death. One could even argue that because they occur so often it looses the "BOOM head shot" feeling, *yawn* we vaporized 32ppl last game.
    I really like that everyone can see you are exposed, it's the reason Draw Fire works as a PvP taunt. My tactical officer very rarely gets vaporized, but as soon as I poke my head up I get hit by 3 or 4 knockdowns, which says to me that I just put an entire team's exploit attacks on cooldown. Which coincidentally means that no one on my team gets vaporized for the next 5 or 10 seconds.

    My Engineer usually only dies by getting vaporized, but my shields are tough and regenerate quickly, so ordinary attacks don't do much at all and I even survive exploits.

    If you're seeing a *lot* of exposes and Exploits, that means that the other team is hitting you with AOEs, which actually have a bit of balance built in. If I hit you with a plasma stun pistol, then you get both a hold and an expose all rolled into one. If I hit you with any of the AOE expose weapons, then there is no hold on the attack, and I have a longer cooldown on my expose attack. AOE exploits also have a much longer cooldown than the single target ones

    There are a *lot* of ways to maximize your own use of expose/exploit while minimizing the other teams -- you can't vaporize my team-mate when you have a weapon malfunction. On my tactical officer I draw fire all the freaking time because that causes premature exploits, and if I see a team-mate in trouble I'll swap between my stun and knockdown pistols to try and keep the enemy CC'd. On my engineer I heal, buff, stun, and disarm. Other careers and kits have other ways to deal with it.

    The big deal is that unless you got a buff up just before you were exposed, you usually can't protect yourself from exploits, you need team mates to do it for you.




    The thing about respawning is a valid complaint. I'm in the habit of spamming some form of CC as I spawn just in case.

    I do think that CC duration could use a nerf, especially for holds. CC should generally wear off before any associated expose does, so you can protect yourself.

    I also have mixed feelings about the spammable melee exposes. On the one hand, what else are you going to do when you have a weapon malfunction? The expose isn't even likely to help unless you have a team-mate nearby in that case. But there are an awful lot of players who just sprint up and circle while spamming the 3 key until it procs an expose, which I'm pretty sure is not something Cryptic intended.


    EDIT -- I wanted to add that the coolest thing about an Orion woman, is blowing your enemy a kiss before you vaporize him. That's worth the price of admission all by itself (on the rare times that it happens). I'm pretty sure there's something freudian in how much I enjoy that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Slamz wrote:
    The problem, I guess, is that the biggest ways to cut down expose deaths relies on smart teammates. That can be hard to come by...

    Same problem with the Crystaline Entity and Infected.
    The team doesn't even have to be 'good' by the standard definition. As long as they can coordinate, they dominate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Expose/Exploit is a big problem because Ground PvP revolves around it.

    It doesn't matter if it has counters because that just turns the entire Ground game into "Stack against a single mechanic or die instantly". All the strategy revolves around it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Freeport wrote:
    Expose/Exploit is a big problem because Ground PvP revolves around it.

    It doesn't matter if it has counters because that just turns the entire Ground game into "Stack against a single mechanic or die instantly". All the strategy revolves around it.

    If there wasn't any expose/exploit then no-one would ever die. As a full medic based science officer i can easily outheal the damage five people can throw at me indefinitely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I use to run with 2x exploit weapons, snipers/sniper or split beam/ split beam. Now I just run with a stun/hold pistol (expose), and split beam rifle (exploit). I still use the Tact Operative kit, ,to avoid being spawn killed and if outnumbered, I just run and gun.

    A few matches in ground, I have been running into Fed teams, with one member having the trait to see invis/cloak players. That was exciting, because it made for a challenging match, not just to avoid the 5 Feds, but the 1 that can see "me" that was cool. unfortunately those teams still lost, because they ended up splitting or pairing up, only leaving their partners either to far ahead, or behind...which become ez kills. Or the team is focusing on the security NPCs, instead of trying to single me out.

    "game on"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    If there's no expose ability, matches will go on for ever. Not fun either.

    In all reality, I'm starting to like ground pvp after really hating it. The thing Cryptic could improve is the clunky handling of characters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dizzident wrote: »
    If there's no expose ability, matches will go on for ever. Not fun either.

    Then they should bump up regular damage. The expose/exploit system could be a fun mechanic but as it is right now it's just too easy to abuse.

    If you think people who spam rifle butt until they get an expose are bad, wait until you face your first full bioresearcher science officer team. I've seen more and more of those these days and it's just pointless to fight back against five people with multiple AoE expose attacks and holds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dekkameron wrote: »
    If there wasn't any expose/exploit then no-one would ever die. As a full medic based science officer i can easily outheal the damage five people can throw at me indefinitely.
    Dizzident wrote: »
    If there's no expose ability, matches will go on for ever. Not fun either.

    In all reality, I'm starting to like ground pvp after really hating it. The thing Cryptic could improve is the clunky handling of characters.

    Right, so the mechanic is basically just a lazy fix to a broken system. Which is probably why everyone is calling out for a ground overhaul.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The whole exploit damage thing is going to be a non-issue once the patch goes live. People are going to survive these a lot more than they already do, and I already survive about half of the exploits made against my science officer (tacticals are usually the only ones who pull it off).

    Queue issues are the only huge issue with ground PvP, and I rather enjoy maps where I am on the short team or alone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Teamwork is key, especially in pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Akwartz wrote:
    Then they should bump up regular damage. The expose/exploit system could be a fun mechanic but as it is right now it's just too easy to abuse.

    If you think people who spam rifle butt until they get an expose are bad, wait until you face your first full bioresearcher science officer team. I've seen more and more of those these days and it's just pointless to fight back against five people with multiple AoE expose attacks and holds.


    I am a Bioresearcher and have been since Lt. Commander. It is an amazingly effective kit, but it lacks survivability. The Bioresearch kit while powerful, is less annoying than the Geophysicist kit in group settings, which comes with a root instead of the fragile hold of the Bio kit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Check out my ground PvP issues thread here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Fix the fuze armor cooldowns while lwe are at it... I don't know how many times i get spammed with this by the same eng.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Akwartz wrote:
    Then they should bump up regular damage. The expose/exploit system could be a fun mechanic but as it is right now it's just too easy to abuse.

    If you think people who spam rifle butt until they get an expose are bad, wait until you face your first full bioresearcher science officer team. I've seen more and more of those these days and it's just pointless to fight back against five people with multiple AoE expose attacks and holds.
    Those teams are tough, but not instant wins -- you can still fight the exploit side of the equation. My tactical officer generally does decently against them because Draw Fire draws the exploits out prematurely. My engineer makes her opponents weapons malfunction, and throws a cover shield in front of team mates that get exposed or held.

    The holds are a *****, but with the way I can buff shields a hold won't kill, and though the exploits are dangerous, you can deal with them.

    The rifle butt spam annoys me because its harder to defend against and only takes one button. I've done it myself a few times. You're pretty much guaranteed to get an expose within 10 seconds (often less) and the knockdown and stun procs are frequent enough to pretty much lock your opponent down while waiting for the expose. It's not the effects which are broken though, it's the ability to spam an expose.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Expose / Exploits are both a blessing and a curse. TO me, they are too frequent (even more so on Tribble) in Ground PvP.


    But my main concern is when Open PvP becomes more frequent, expose / exploits will make it too easy for 1 on 1s. Just spam exposes and whoever is quickest (and luckiest) will be the winner. And I feel that will detract from the fun of PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    Expose / Exploits are both a blessing and a curse. TO me, they are too frequent (even more so on Tribble) in Ground PvP.

    The problem is that, for most people, the expose/exploit system is the main way to get kills. It's just wrong.

    Buff regular weapon damage, add diminishing returns to CC, make expose visible only to the player who generated the proc, do anything to change the fact that the deciding factor in most ground PvP fights is a 10% chance one-shot proc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    Expose / Exploits are both a blessing and a curse. TO me, they are too frequent (even more so on Tribble) in Ground PvP.


    But my main concern is when Open PvP becomes more frequent, expose / exploits will make it too easy for 1 on 1s. Just spam exposes and whoever is quickest (and luckiest) will be the winner. And I feel that will detract from the fun of PvP.
    That's why nothing with an expose should be spammable.

    I've got a Lt. Commander Orion Engineer. I've got 2 long range exposes (Weapon Malfunction and plasma stun pistol), one short range expose (seduction) and the same melee expose everyone gets (Palm Strike). wepons Malfunction has the most powerful and reliable CC out of the batch, but it has a 15s cooldown, so it's not spammable. The stun pistol has a 5 or 6 second cooldown. Seduction has a cooldown of a couple of minutes. Between those three, I can frontload 3 exposes, but after that there is 5 second gap between stuns and a longer gap between weapon malfunctions. All of those are single target abilities, so in a team vs. team fight it's highly unlikely that I'll be able to focus on one person enough to lock them down.

    Other abilities with expose have similar cooldowns, with the more powerful exposes or exposes that can hit more players having longer cooldowns.

    The broken part is rifle butt, because that has both a CC and an expose, and is spammable. You could juggle cooldowns and pick the best times to use your CC... or you can sprint up, circle-strafe, and spam the "3" key to keep your opponent locked down and proc a reliable expose within a few seconds.

    There's no problems with the expose/exploit mechanic, as long as the cooldowns allow gaps.

    EDIT --
    The problem is that, for most people, the expose/exploit system is the main way to get kills. It's just wrong.

    Buff regular weapon damage, add diminishing returns to CC, make expose visible only to the player who generated the proc, do anything to change the fact that the deciding factor in most ground PvP fights is a 10% chance one-shot proc.
    The thing is that 10% procs aren't quite random. If you plan your attacks you can make the procs fairly controllable. You can't just decide to get an expose on your third attack, but if you both protect yourself and throw in what exposes you are able, then you virtually guarantee an expose in longer fights.

    In a minute's time, my Orion engineer gets 15 chances at an expose (not counting Palm Strike, that would give me like 60 chances at an expose, which is why it's a broken ability). While that doesn't work out to a 100% chance of an expose in a minute, if I survive that long I will probably get at least one expose. So I use my expose abilities and during the cooldowns I take cover and use my defensive abilities.

    At the same time, a good opponent is trying the same thing, so I also need to watch out for his exposes and try to keep some sort of CC on him so he doesn't hit me with an exploit. Since my CCs and exposes are on the same abilities and those abilities have cooldowns, I have to be pretty careful about what I use and when.

    The whole thing is random, but when you repeat a random event over a period of time, it becomes predictable and you can build strategies around it.

    The alternative of buffing regular weapon damage to the point you don't need expose/exploit would just take strategy out of the game. The winner would be whoever shoots first.

    I do think that some expose abilities need adjustment, but the basic system is fine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    My experience, and granted I've only played PvP for 2 days now, is Science owns everyone. It is so one sided I just don't know how Cryptic could have released it like this. (Okay, I do, $$$) Still, it's not even remotely fun, team work or otherwise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    People ***** about science, but it isn't that the class is overpowered, it is just easier to use to great effect for a newer player. Tacticals and Engineers can be far more effective than Science in 1v1, if the proper skills and talents are taken.

    I have had to run from a number of tacticals in 1v1 with the appropriate skills, the ones that buff their base damage. If I don't get an expose on them, things can get quite dirty. Even when I do get an expose on them, if they have the right kit, I won't kill them with my expose/exploit combo...sometimes I only take out their shields (same with engineers). Resists are king in ground matches, just remember that...

    Engineers get a kit with all their greatest abilities: Fuse Armor, Weapon Malfunction, Shield Recharge, and Weapon Diagnostic. This will ensure they are in the fight for a good long time and are INSANELY effective in 1v1. A good engineer with the proper kit and talents is a BRUTE in ground PvP. Shoot, you don't even have to be that good, just use the proper talents...

    Each of the other classes besides Science get chances to expose, which will usually take out a non-healing scientist in one shot if done properly. They also get abilities which greatly add to their longevity or regular combat effectiveness.


    What not to do is go into a PvP map with ground emplacements and expect to be uber awesome. Don't expect to be a close combat tactical and do super well.


    I prefer my science officer because she is the most fun to me, but if she gets nerfed, I will always have "overpowered" engineering builds and tactical builds I can play.

    and you people think a good scientist is a nightmare...try a good tactical :p
Sign In or Register to comment.