test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

FvF and the consequence of FvK

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I just want to air a thought which I can think can be viewed as a protest until FvK PvP is solved.

With the coming changes which will introduce FvF, we can be certain that FvK will be drastically reduced unless its for the dailies. For the Klingon player this is a sad situation and something I hope dearly will be fixed. But there is one thought which has crossed my mind. Why the HELL should Fed players even care or worry about Klingons losing their FvK games? Its no more or less what they deserve. why?

1. Feedback Pulse. Most Klingon players use this ability with a passion in combination with Reverse Shield Polarity, and thats understandable. 2/3 of the fed ships are beam based so its fairly simple to win any match.

2. As a result of Feedback Pulse affecting beams, Klingons are not affected since they can equip cannons, making a game breaking ability one side favoured. This in combination with the cloack which they can dictate when, where and how, puts fed in a major disadvantage. Klingon players argues that fed players have to use turrets. Then i ask who the HELL gave one faction such control and power to determine how players are to fit their ship, undermining their skill choices and virtually making beam weapons obsolete.
This is wrong!

Now considering these two factors, which Fed who wants to pvp would in his/her right mind que up under such conditions? I can safe say very few unless they want a challenge or for the dailies. FvF will be the feds salvation for a balanced and more fair PvP match, where both are affected by the feedback pulse in a fair degree and the fact we can see each other all the time.

Cryptic! FvF is fair but you`re undermining FvK to a huge proportion. Fix this! Start with feedback pulse and change it. When this is adressed, the rest will fall in place.

Klingons! FvF is somehow your punishment. Fed players are now taking away your fun, your enjoyment from seeing that fed ship go bom, because of how game mechanics are. Blame it if you please on fed players unability to pvp, lack of cooperation or them not fitting turrets. It doesnt matter how you twist and turn it, until its realized and hereby argued that something has to change.

I will hereby encourage FvF all the time, until the Klingon outcry is so loud that cryptic will have no choice to do something about it. That or the Klingons themselves change and adapt tactics that will encourage feds to compete on more fair grounds.

Now flame away, qq me if you wish. Just have in mind if you do so without posting constructive post, your only making yourself look like a fool.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FvF will improve FvK, because all the whiners will play FvF, and that will cleanse the FvK queues a bit, hopefuly improving the quailty of pvp engagements. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dalnar wrote:
    FvF will improve FvK, because all the whiners will play FvF, and that will cleanse the FvK queues a bit, hopefuly improving the quailty of pvp engagements. ;)

    That might be so and a well thought argument. But the problems with FBP is still there and still to a huge disadvantage for the fed base.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    because 30 minute qeues are remotely fun? (hint: they're not)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    One solution would be to offer a separate daily quest for FvK PvP or different marks.


    I am not sure how FvF will affect FvK PvP.

    If it was implemented tomorrow there would still be Fed players queuing up for FvK PvP.

    However I doubt anyone would disagree with that fact it would be far less then it is now.


    One side of me is looking forward to FvF because most of the games will be extremely easy wins.

    Borg Hunt experience as well as grouping with most in pugs when your team isn't online can tell you this.....

    The other side of me says that is going to suck because they're all extremely easy wins.


    The other main problem I have is the fact that there is a certain appeal to the "war" aspect of the game that doesn't really exist in FvF combat.


    FBP and BoP Sci spammers are really the two main problems right now with FvK PvP.

    A major adjustment needs to happen to FBP and it looks like that is coming soon.

    Providing a decent CC / Sci immunities after effect could potentially resolve the BoP issue.


    Carriers and cloak are fine for the most part especially with the up and coming Fire on my Target buff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Its no more or less what they deserve. why?

    Please don't pretend to know me, how I play or what I do or do not deserve.
    1. Feedback Pulse. Most Klingon players use this ability with a passion

    That hasn't been my observation as a klingon. Many of us don't use it at all. Some of us, like myself, use it as a deterrent, because we can't pump out much damage with it given our build. I've been in many matches where I've popped the FBP and the feds continued to shoot at me because they could see I wasn't doing much with it.
    2. As a result of Feedback Pulse affecting beams, Klingons are not affected

    Of course we're affected. The Negh'Var and Vo'Quv are both pretty slow ships, so cannons aren't a great choice. I'm currently playing around with a regular cannon on my carrier, but that's limited to the front half of my ship. It's VERY difficult in the heat of everything to ensure that you are in my front arc at all. Beams are a better choice, but because of FBP from the feds I limit this to one so that I can use the beam target subsystem options of the carrier.
    Then i ask who the HELL gave one faction such control and power to determine how players are to fit their ship,

    The short answer: Cryptic.

    The longer answer: it's not one faction controlling the other, it's both factions affecting what the other uses. Like I said, I don't use beams because of FBP on fed ships. I can't really use cannons that much either so I'm stuck with mostly turrets. The feds lately have been spamming VM, so we've started carrying more science teams.

    Both factions affect the strategies of the other. You can't expect to build something that you'd like to play and have it be superbly effective against all enemies. You need to look at what strategies work and use them.
    Now considering these two factors, which Fed who wants to pvp would in his/her right mind que up under such conditions? I can safe say very few unless they want a challenge or for the dailies.

    Are you suggesting that FvF won't be a challenge? Why, because all feds will now take FBP to defend against the other feds?
    Klingons! FvF is somehow your punishment.

    For what, exactly? Playing to our strengths? A friend of mine has had many nights were he can't do anything because the enemy continuously spams SNB and VM keeping him locked out of the fight. Not just once in the fight, but over and over, so he remains VM'd until he's dead each and every time he spawns.

    Isn't that punish-worthy?

    We aren't doing anything that we shouldn't be doing based on the game that Cryptic has made so to suggest that this is our punishment is both ludicrous and extremely insulting. If anyone is to be punished it would be the people who made the game this way, not the people who play it.
    I will hereby encourage FvF all the time, until the Klingon outcry is so loud that cryptic will have no choice to do something about it. That or the Klingons themselves change and adapt tactics that will encourage feds to compete on more fair grounds.

    So, in essence, you're saying that unless we outfit our ships the way you want us to you won't come back to the arena. Can we tell YOU what you can and can't use then? If you want fair, then you'd have to allow that.

    The thing is that any decent player DOES adapt and change according to what they are fighting. What you're talking about here is making it so that the feds don't have to do that at all, and that is just silly.
    Now flame away, qq me if you wish. Just have in mind if you do so without posting constructive post, your only making yourself look like a fool.

    Something you'd be able to recognize quickly, I presume.

    FBP sucks, yeah. It needs to be fixed, no question. That doesn't mean that we all max it out, carry 3 copies and just wait to see you melt from your own beam fire. It doesn't mean that we are doing anything wrong. We've discovered something that makes it easier for us to win, so we're using it. Complain to the devs to change it because they are the only ones who can. In the meantime, try adapting to our tactics instead of just QQing and proclaiming us to be worthy of punishment.

    Don't like using some turrets? Too bad. I've accepted it on my carrier and moved on. That's what a PvPer does.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I also almost forgot - Cryptic needs to buff Klingon XP big time.

    Especially while I'm trying to level mine. lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    To Sam Charette:

    In essence your arguments are towards keeping the situation as status quo because game mechanics allow you. But the question is: Should you?

    All your responses are valid and I wont counter argument them as much. The only problem I have is the fact that FBP is still a one faction favoured ability to a such a huge proportion. Although carriers and neg`vhars are slow moving ships, they can still cloack, maneuver and get into a position, fire off VM, SNB, practically lock down any ship they see fit. As for the FBP as a deternet, aye true. But the thing is that feds cant use it as well as klingons can, due to the fact that most klingons fit turrets and cannons opposed to 2/3 of the feds fitting beams.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    actually carriers can't cloak. it's very much a game-changer in terms of klingon tactics. fed tactics too, if they're smart (and alas, too many are not).

    -ken
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    in a good team vs a good team cloaking doesnt really take much into account (except bop battle cloak) because there really isnt that much downtime between the combat. Most of my premade vs premade have been long drawn out combat cluster****s.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    TIn essence your arguments are towards keeping the situation as status quo because game mechanics allow you. But the question is: Should you?

    That's not what I'm saying at all actually. I'm saying that we are doing nothing wrong by using tactics we have found to work, and dropping ones that don't. Just because we do that and you don't doesn't mean that we should be punished for it.

    And as I said, FBP needs to be fixed, no question, but that's not our fault. I could go on about all of the TRIBBLE that feds pull, but I don't because it's part of the game, and you aren't doing anything wrong with it. At most I'll ask the dev team to look at it for possible imbalance.

    So saying that this is punishment for us for doing exactly what we're supposed to be doing is just wrong. Losing is punishment for people who refuse to adapt. FBP won't be going away when you get FvF, it's just going to exacerbate it.
    All your responses are valid and I wont counter argument them as much. The only problem I have is the fact that FBP is still a one faction favoured ability to a such a huge proportion. Although carriers and neg`vhars are slow moving ships, they can still cloack, maneuver and get into a position, fire off VM, SNB, practically lock down any ship they see fit. As for the FBP as a deternet, aye true. But the thing is that feds cant use it as well as klingons can, due to the fact that most klingons fit turrets and cannons opposed to 2/3 of the feds fitting beams.

    As already said, carriers can't cloak. It takes us forever to get to the combat and ever since I've been a general we've basically given up the majority of the cloak advantage as a result. Most of the ships that I see on my team are carriers and cruisers, so FBP would be effective against us and is the reason why I don't use beams. Even BoPs have beams on them usually (until the next patch that changes cannons). We've learned, we've adapted, and we're waiting for you to do the same.

    Punishment is something reserved for people who do wrong. Playing the game presented to us is not wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Fair enough. Im still eyeing a change, and FvF is for me Godsend as long as FBP in combination with cloacks as it is. And that has nothing to do with adaptions or bad gameplay. It has to do with the current mechanics of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Fair enough. Im still eyeing a change, and FvF is for me Godsend as long as FBP in combination with cloacks as it is. And that has nothing to do with adaptions or bad gameplay. It has to do with the current mechanics of the game.

    And that's absolutely acceptable. FvF won't get you away from FBP, though, nor completely away from cloak. You'll find that a lot of feds, particularly escorts, will use jam targeting sensors to make themselves invisible to you, so will be cloaked AND shooting you, and everyone will sport a FBP.

    Just a tip for when you do get to FvF, the jam targeting sensors is oftentimes a ploy. They use it to bait you into wasting a science team, and then VM you. So be careful for that :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Aye, but im more opt to the fact that beams will be more commenly used in FvF where there is NO exuse that only one faction seldom use them. This will too encourage people to THINK as both fed ships can feel the pain. Escorts are nimble ships and will go down swift.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You know, I believe that FvF will be a very bad thing for FvK, however I AM looking forward to it just so that I can see two FBP heavy fed teams go after each other. A video of that would be glorious :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You know, I believe that FvF will be a very bad thing for FvK, however I AM looking forward to it just so that I can see two FBP heavy fed teams go after each other. A video of that would be glorious :D

    Thats what i mean. It will be so ridiculous that it will be hilarious.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You know, I believe that FvF will be a very bad thing for FvK, however I AM looking forward to it just so that I can see two FBP heavy fed teams go after each other. A video of that would be glorious :D

    this would require 3+ science vessels, considering that only FBP3 hurts significantly, on each team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I just want to air a thought which I can think can be viewed as a protest until FvK PvP is solved.

    With the coming changes which will introduce FvF, we can be certain that FvK will be drastically reduced unless its for the dailies. For the Klingon player this is a sad situation and something I hope dearly will be fixed. But there is one thought which has crossed my mind. Why the HELL should Fed players even care or worry about Klingons losing their FvK games? Its no more or less what they deserve. why?

    1. Feedback Pulse. Most Klingon players use this ability with a passion in combination with Reverse Shield Polarity, and thats understandable. 2/3 of the fed ships are beam based so its fairly simple to win any match.

    2. As a result of Feedback Pulse affecting beams, Klingons are not affected since they can equip cannons, making a game breaking ability one side favoured. This in combination with the cloack which they can dictate when, where and how, puts fed in a major disadvantage. Klingon players argues that fed players have to use turrets. Then i ask who the HELL gave one faction such control and power to determine how players are to fit their ship, undermining their skill choices and virtually making beam weapons obsolete.
    This is wrong!

    Now considering these two factors, which Fed who wants to pvp would in his/her right mind que up under such conditions? I can safe say very few unless they want a challenge or for the dailies. FvF will be the feds salvation for a balanced and more fair PvP match, where both are affected by the feedback pulse in a fair degree and the fact we can see each other all the time.

    Cryptic! FvF is fair but you`re undermining FvK to a huge proportion. Fix this! Start with feedback pulse and change it. When this is adressed, the rest will fall in place.

    Klingons! FvF is somehow your punishment. Fed players are now taking away your fun, your enjoyment from seeing that fed ship go bom, because of how game mechanics are. Blame it if you please on fed players unability to pvp, lack of cooperation or them not fitting turrets. It doesnt matter how you twist and turn it, until its realized and hereby argued that something has to change.

    I will hereby encourage FvF all the time, until the Klingon outcry is so loud that cryptic will have no choice to do something about it. That or the Klingons themselves change and adapt tactics that will encourage feds to compete on more fair grounds.

    Now flame away, qq me if you wish. Just have in mind if you do so without posting constructive post, your only making yourself look like a fool.

    yes but ...
    can somebody explain why Klinks almost always loose on the capture the flag maps while they are almostalwaqys winning on the small arenas.
    Maybe it's only my experience but i experienced this anomaly manys times.
    Any clues?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    BG5, Lost maybe 1 in 10 capture and holds. Not sure what tiers you speak of but it doesn't happen too much. Sometimes we just sit and blow up those that want to fight and not even bother with the resources.

    FVF with the same rewards will damage the game.

    There needs to be meaningful pvp in the game. A real in game reason to do it. Ie taking a cluster or starbase etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Artefaktum wrote: »
    yes but ...
    can somebody explain why Klinks almost always loose on the capture the flag maps while they are almostalwaqys winning on the small arenas.
    Maybe it's only my experience but i experienced this anomaly manys times.
    Any clues?
    Because the capture maps favor ships which can spread out and operate independently, which the Feds tend to have more of. On my Fed cruiser I can go solo cap something and then hold out long enough for reinforcements arrive, or if only one (or sometimes two) come to fight me I can usually beat them.

    On my BoP, soloing usually means death, especially if I have to uncloak and wait for something to cap.

    Capture maps favor teams that can split up and cover several points at once, which means they need a lot of relatively sturdy ships. Klingons go a lot more heavily towards fragile but maneuverable and high-damage vessels, which tend to favor working in larger packs.




    I kind of think that FvF will kill FvK because I already see players choosing the sorts of maps which most favor them. On my fed I love the capture maps and we usually win them, whether in PUGs or teams. I usually queue for 2 ground maps at a time because ground PvP doesn't favor one side or another.

    On my Klink I almost never queue for KvK, because 2 teams both waiting around in cloak for 20 minutes until they literally bump into each other is freaking stupid. KvK space is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. It's slightly better for capture maps because you need to decloak to cap, but being in the BoP decloaked to cap then getting ambushed sucks a lot. Ground queues always pop faster on my Klink, and I think a lot of that may be because the Feds are avoiding the space PvP.

    A lot of players hate ground PvP, so when I'm seeing more frequent pops for that, and when I favor it on my Fed because it's more balanced, it stands to reason that most players will join the queues that offer them better balance.





    Frankly I really like that only one side gets cloaking. But that one mechanic changes the effectiveness of many other mechanics.

    A big part of why Feds favor beams is that they don't get to choose which way they are facing at the start of a fight. Even in an escort, very often the fight starts with the enemy at your flank. Going heavy on beams is the best way to do good DPS to wide firing arcs.

    On the Klingon side, every ship except for carriers can take whatever time they need to maneuvers so that the fight at least starts with their heaviest firepower facing the enemy. If the fight starts at near maximum range, it's relatively easy to keep your enemy even in a cannon's narrow arc.

    There is a gigantic difference between cloak+CC and CC alone as well. Cloaking means that the first CC is going to land, and the best the target can do is react. With two ships fighting without cloak, at least one has the chance to do something before CC lands.

    The Federation can choose to stack FBP or CCs, but it's not going to have the same effect because Klingons don't *need* to use beams and can almost always attack before their targets.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Did someone say FBP? Ya I cannot wait for FvF because:
    http://www.wegame.com/watch/how-to-science-vessel/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    How a Klingon science captain in a BoP wins every duell or combat against ANY fed ship.

    Cloack-->aux to 125-- > de-cloack at the poor feds flank--->SnB-->VM--->Shoot and use every tactical ability until the poor sod is dead.

    Cloack in combination with CC (SnB and VM) means guarenteed win. The fed ship cant do squat for 30 seconds when a SnB is fired at 125 aux, and just to add injury to insult pop a VM for good measure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    How a Klingon science captain in a BoP wins every duell or combat against ANY fed ship.

    Cloack-->aux to 125-- > de-cloack at the poor feds flank--->SnB-->VM--->Shoot and use every tactical ability until the poor sod is dead.

    Cloack in combination with CC (SnB and VM) means guarenteed win. The fed ship cant do squat for 30 seconds when a SnB is fired at 125 aux, and just to add injury to insult pop a VM for good measure.



    Impressive, you know what Klingons can utilize against you, and nothing but QQ from u, not even once you mention a counter. I see you have 2 Fed toons. Tells me you don't know how to play ur 2 toons.

    Rick, on the other hand, knows how to play his Fed toons, he doesn't gripe about one other faction, more about the BO skill itself, utilize by the "universal BO slotted" BoP.


    What some of you players complain about is the faction, that is not where the problem lies, its the skills of your BOs, and what you use them for. There are presently 2 types of each ship for each catergory, i.e. cruiser, science, escort at RA5. compare that to what is available to the Klingons. "most of my losses in space, (c&h) was due to th red team having only 2 types of ships on the field (BoP, and cruiser), my wins were with a mix of ships for the red team." I don't even use the VM, or FBP on BoP, nor can I use Subnuc, because the CPT is a Tact officer. .....whoa...waiit....tact officer...so really the QQ's is about....BO'z skill utilized by a Science CPT, onboard a BoP w/ universal BO slots....wow....



    Anyways, I can't wait till FvF, so i can see all the USS ships covered in glitter shooting each other instead of the opposing Fed team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Rook0024 wrote:
    Impressive, you know what Klingons can utilize against you, and nothing but QQ from u, not even once you mention a counter. I see you have 2 Fed toons. Tells me you don't know how to play ur 2 toons.


    Anyways, I can't wait till FvF, so i can see all the USS ships covered in glitter shooting each other instead of the opposing Fed team.

    Good lord! I wasnt expressing my anguish in any form, and I said in my OP that if you intend to insult or claim im so-called qq`ing then thats not my intent. If you continue to pest me with it, i would ask you to bug off as your flaming is not welcome. I want constructive critisism, pointed at solutions then the ranting.

    Im trying to state the fact on how broken PvP currently is by pointing out that example, and why FvF will be a better course due to game mechanics. FvK at its current state is terrible, so terrible i grieve for it cause i prefer to shoot Klingons then feds. As for counters, there are NO counters, well none I can think of cause that would demand a second ship intervening in. In the typical duel situation fed vs klink, klink is guarenteed to win due to this.

    So again Cryptic. Fix it!
Sign In or Register to comment.