OK, I'm not that big PvPer and it's clear for me that fair PvP balancing is impossible, one side is always a bit better. In beta Feds always won and seems so as if Klingons now more often win (has of course something to do with the fact that Klingons have more PvP practice because of missing PvE content).
But I just read a thing in another thread which gives me the impression this could also be a reason for the PvP imbalance:
(...) BOP- 2x Dual heavy 1xQuant 3x Turret. Full cannon / Disruptor spec. (...) I Viral Matrix. (...)
On Fed side escorts can't have higher tier science BO skills like Viral Matrix, only Sci-Vessels. On the other side only escorts can have the counterpart (Attack Pattern Omega). So it's more or less balanced on Fed side.
But if Klingons can have the advantage of both, escorts and sci-vessels like in the quote then I think it's out of balance. Cloak, high dps and high tier Sci BO skills, isn't that too much?
What do you think? Give me a reason why I should not think that's unfair.
Comments
You will also not get Viral III and omega III, maximum is lvl III of one and lvl I of the other, and lvl I is usually a waste of time for any skill.
The BoP is also the only science vessel for Klingons until tier5, without innate subsystem targeting and extra shield boosts. Imagine you would fly your FED science vessel, but will be tied to sub-escort shipshields and hull, how long do you think would you survive or be any useful at all?
I know a lot of BoP pilots and shared some builds, and in the end 90% end up with 2 BOs main class, 1 BO for each sideclass. The only difference is that 1 sideclass BO might be Ltd.Cmdr and the 2nd main class a Ltd.
You end up like this because there are a lot of extremely useful abilities out there you would else miss (rapid fire, RSP, science team, ...). And if you specialize too much you run into global cooldowns quite fast.
The universal slots are of course a benefit. And without them I think we would have like 20% Klingon population left (from the current left population). It's also the only way to balance PvP T2-4 a little bit, because we get scie vessels and cruisers later.
Btw switching skills is without respec options not so extremely easy as everyone thinks.
They have all the advantages of an Escort and Science ship (except target beam I for free OOhhh) and none of the disadvantages.
I'll get to the ridiculous argument about "survivability" in a moment.
#1. Cloak - I like this in the game. Don't really want it nerf'd. I think Fire on my Target is a good change though.
#2. Massive Firepower - Similar to an Escort who can't cloak or have high level Science stations.
#3. Universal BOs - This is an idea popped into the head of one of the developers on Monday morning after spending all weekend binge drinking at one of the local clubs. Giving an ESCORT ship this option with no limitations is insane. The Sci spam abuse from BO's alone have created the single most problematic issue with the game in PvP atm. FBP, Jam Sensors, VMx2. Really stupid. No Escort ship should have this especially one that can do major damage.
#4. Maneuverability
#5. BATTLE Cloak + the above - This is why the argument of "WELL THEY HAVE NO HULL!" doesn't matter.
How many times have you seen 3 or 4 BoP's come in and spam sci only to have one of them flake out (effortlessly) at the very moment their in trouble? Part of that was a joke. BoPs will have everything dead if 4 of them come out of cloak spamming Sci. lolol.....
BoP Captains can get away and cloak at the first sight of trouble with shocking ease.
Most of them usually save a RSP for just that moment.
I know I have one and I really only die in PvP when I CHOSE to die.
Furthermore watching BoP's spam sci and lock up a 3 or 4 Cruisers back to back who just popped sci.
It's hysterical and a sad state of PvP atm.
Especially considering most of the PvP atm is pug vs. pug, pug vs. premade, or 1v1.
There needs to be some adjustments made somewhere.
Unfortunately most of the adjustments that would work would also nerf Federation Science ships which are fairly balanced atm.
A more aggressive immunity granted to the ship that protects against a multitude of CC effects after a VM is removed is one option.
Possibly a more aggressive Sci Team that continues to have a high chance to remove other CC effects as intended.
Or quite simply you can limit BoP Sci stations.
Some of thi spost is pretty misleading. Firstly, BoPs will never do the dps that a raptor will, period. A raptor has 1 more tactical console upgrade slot and an extra rear weapon for another turret.
Secondly, You do realize that it's not so much the weapons that allow an escort to do the damage, it's the myriad of tactical BO abilities right? Lets see, attack pattern Omega 3, rapid fire 1 and 2, high yield 1-3, attack pattern beta (this one is huge, it literally doubles to triples my damage over 8 or so seconds.). Without a BO set up similar to what I have in my raptor, IE one with both Commander and Lt Commander slots as tactical, BoPs WILL NOT DO AMAZING DAMAGE. You have to give up a lot of damage in order to spam lame science abilites for 1 v 1s and all of them barring feedback pulse can be countered.
Maneuverability is superior, true, which is nice, but it's not the be all and end all, I get along just fine with my raptor which has the same turn rate as fed escorts.
Lastly though, battle cloak is not a get out of jail free card. If you acctuallly have played with a BoP with battle cloak through 3-4 full tiers of pvp as I have, you'd realise that it's only useful against bad players, but then again everything is incredibly useful against bad players. Good players will not allow you to battlecloak and escpae via tractor beam, and if you're being focused fired because you're fighting a fed premade (rare as they are) then battlecloaking is a death sentence as surely as if you de-equipped your shields. So yea, battlecloak does not invalidate the fact that BoPs have fragile hulls.
That being said battlecloak has its uses, mainly when you can evasive maunvers + full engine power out of line of sight behing an asteroid or something THEN cloak.
How many raptors have you seen in Tier 5 PvP?
I can tell you how many I've seen in Tier 5 PvP vs. BoPs.
I'll give you a hint. I can count them on ONE hand.
To be honest you're being a little misleading yourself here.
Your BoP team really doesn't need THAT many "Tactical" Officer BO abilities to blow up 3 or 4 ships that have been effectively locked down completely.
What you are suggesting is a bit overkill especially with the changes on Tribble coming up.
BoPs have escort LIKE firepower although slightly less if they decide to Sci spam.
But hey that don't need it if they Sci spam? Everyone can't move, target them, or respond. LOL
Is that why BoPs outnumber Raptors 1000:1 in PvP games?
You're not honestly putting a Raptor on the same level as a BoP in PvP are you?
You really want to take that position?
Yes it is especially if you save a RSP.
If you can't do it then you're the only one I've seen not be able to thus far.
It is a Swiss Army knife to fill in the gaps.
It receives NO DAMAGE BONUS, unlike an Escort
It doesn't get the SCI bonus skills
It has a paper thin Hull
It's shields are pathetic.
It has 1 less ensign BO slot...which is a LT slot later
ALL THIS has been traded for customizability (yes, I made that word up).
Unlike Fed side, none of the Klingon ships build on one another, so most do not put any points into the ship type until BG. On the fed side, each level builds a bit on the previous hull. You also get bonuses to each ship class.
The RAPTOR is the Escort.
It sounds to me like you are against the CC in the game. Feds spam VM/SNB/FBP as much, if not more than their Klingon counterparts.
Stay focused on the real problem.
"Is a BOP with a high science slot better than an Escort with a high tactical slot?"
Answer that and we can decide if the problem is with universal slots or simply a balance issue between the different types of BOFFs and their powers. Ideally, the choice of science boff vs tactical boff should be a question of style rather than power.
RSP? You realize that when the shields drop 3 seconds before fully cloaked that RSP is worthless, right? No shield, nothing to reverse.
Your rant is based on never having played a BoP captain.
so you have no idea how cloak works....you have no shields...
battlecloak is most of the time a selfkill....why?
Because you still get all dmg sequences AND torpedos fired at you....this makes it a 50/50 chance to survive a battlecloak.
Did you read anything I wrote?
I never mentioned once that you had shields with cloak?
Maybe if you're a bad player? Sounds like you don't know how to time your cloak or evasive maneuvers ability.
Apparently you don't understand how to use a BoP with RSP to escape.
Of course you don't press RSP then IMMEDIATELY cloak. lol
I didn't even think that needed to be EXPLAINED. Especially considering that EVERY BoP in Tier 5 knows what I'm talking about....
You pop RSP, evasive manuvers, full power to engines, once you're out of range and safely away from the tugboats THEN you cloak.
Good grief......It's like I have to run BoP PvP clinic for all the bad players so they can post effective comments on the forums (or avoid posting bad ones).
You need to re-read my post.
Your reply doesn't even make sense base on what I wrote.
Maybe you should take some of your own advice and stay focused yourself.
The main point obviously when right over your head.
Also are you suggesting that there are more Federation Science ships then BoPs in PvP matches?
I sure hope not.
so you have a dedicated sci vessel, the top slot goes to sci, so what for cmdr/ltcmdr and lt? chances are it will be exaclty what any sci officer uses atm for bo's. so it wouldn't really change much. even a tac officer can make use of a 4 slot sci boff in a bop for cc. it would need an increase in science consols to justify its dedicated role it has less guns but that would remain so most likely. it should gain the free target systems of sci vessels.
given the bops phyiscal weakness compaired to other ships comes in part from its versitility what lvl of bonuses should it be given to compensate for the loss, 5%, 10% shield/hull bonus?.
In all honesty i do not see that making the bop a dedicated ship, which would almost certainly have to be sci given the deficiency in the kdf navy would make the ship any less dangerous in the hands of a decent player.
Unless it is your plan of course that no kdf ship is able to use higher lvl sci abilities at all until the carrier, which turns so slow no ship would ever get caught in its 45 deg arc to ever be effected by cc. if that is so i suppose you want us to have two escorts, which becomes one escort and the raptor is retired from service. Thus only ur mighty federation can use any cc at all and the kdf become easier to fight than the npc's that have innate sci skills.
Very good point.
It leaves us with a few limited options.
#1. You can introduce another ship on the Klink side that is more sci oriented. - Not likely to happen.
#2. You can limit CC in general which also affects Fed Sci ships. Not exactly what most would deem as "fair"
#3. You can buff Sci Team and immunities.
#4. You can do 2 or 3 or a combination while buffing other Sci abilities. You then could have the same issue you started with....
#5. You could limit the Sci options available on BoP to Lt or LtC level. Potential issues with this as well as you already explained with the ship selection on Klink side.
Probably the most viable option is to do some adjustments to immunities when being affected by certain Science abilities.
Tweak it so that they're still viable but can't be abused endlessly.
Possibly give Federation Sci ships an additional ability to compensate.
Ah, like any bad poster, you immediately move into being insulting.
You obviously never flew a BoP at Tier 5.
You OP is equates to another Fed complaining about Klingons being overpowered because they lost. You assertions are self-serving and lack a complete understanding of the mechanics of PvP balance. In short, you are asking for a nerf because you refuse to see the distict advantages that the Federation side has.
The entire Klingon side has sacrificed to give the Bird of Prey a niche to be flexible and adaptable. Why? Because the Federation side has obvious advantages in all their ships.
The ONLY unbalanced aspect to pvp is this: Communication. Federation captains are the worst communicators in the game, by and large. The KDF side have been pvping together for so long that communication is less of a factor, since they already understand their roles and how to maintain support range and assistance. The Federation side, especially at Tier 5, has very little experience, by comparison, in tactical communication. This is due to their being 10 feds to 1 kdf.
You are whining about Universal slots, but you don't see that they have been bought and paid for by the nerfing of all other ships. You realize that Fed Escorts get damage bonuses that NO KLINGON SHIP GETS. You realize that ALL KLINGON SHIPS HAVE LESS HULL.
I am sorry that you feel that you are disadvantaged, but the reality is that you are not. Federation players are VM/FBP/SNB happy and anyone that denies this is delusional. I have yet to enter any capture and hold instance where I didn't get hit 3, 5 or even 8 times in a row get hit with SNB and VM. Couple this with the sci ships being about to target my shields without taking up an additional BO skill, and you will understand the problem.
If you are willing to sacrifice your Escort and Sci Ship imbalances, you can then talk about nerfing the KDF.
There is so much irony here I had to laugh out loud.
You need to re-read my post and try to make an intelligent reply next time that counters any of my points.
Your broad sweeping generalizations makes your statements completely unfounded and rather absurd.
You also have no idea how many matches vs. Klinks I've won and lost.
Nice way to get off topic there.
You boast that others don't have an understanding of PvP mechanics while you can't even make an intelligible reply that covers any of the points made in the previous post.
I find this especially funny considering your opening statement about me "move to be insulting" ? lol
You decided to get personal instead of countering any of my points.
You do so while being a hypocrite. Well done.
You sound like one of those guys who is desperately trying to hold on to an OP ability while changing the topic to avoid countering any of the points made in the previous post.
Whining? You accuse me of being insulting while posting this?
Especially after this tearful post of yours I'm replying to.....
Irony x10
There is only one ship that has the ability to Sci spam CC like most BoPs do at Tier 5.
That's a Science Vessel.
Guess what? It's damage isn't even remotely close to a BoP nor can it cloak evade.
Again are you trying to say that there are MORE Science Vessel or as many as BoPs in PvP matches?
Your entire post sounds like a little kid throwing a tantrum because you know the fix is coming at some point.
I genuinely hope you read this now and realize that your post is as embarrassing to you as it was funny for me to read lol.
What you are not seeing is this:
A science ship can disable my shields without taking up an extra BO skill. They can then, once shields drop, fire torpedoes that instantly explode my paper thin hull.
Fed escorts flown by sci officers can snb and vm a BoP and then deliver a devastating attack since they get damage bonuses to weapons.
Do you deny any of this?
In the past week, I have faced mostly sci officers on science ships. I would venture to guess that 70% of the feds I fight are science in either escorts or sci ships. Several of these matches have been a whole sci team .
Dude I apologize in advance if this comes off wrong but if your shields are going down when you're hit by a Subsystem Shields I then you really need to work on your PvP.
When comparing a Sci vessel to a BoP - Target Subsystem I does not equal out to the cloak evade capabilities or burst damage of a BoP.
Yes I do?
Escorts do NOT have BO Sci stations that are able to access to VM.
Weren't you just attacking me about not understanding the "basic mechanics" behind PvP?
Subnuc beam is another topic altogether. No one disagrees that it's a tad bit on the OP side atm.
However you don't need to be a Science officer to use a BoP with Sci spamming CC abilities.
You can be a tac officer and do a Jam Sensors + VM move for example that you CANNOT do on an escort.
Simply put, BoPs are "SUPER Sci" Escorts at the moment.
#1. They can Sci spam.
#2. Do Escort "like" damage
#3. Easily evade out of range using RSP then cloak.
Toss in the fact that most PvP fights are pug vs pug, pug vs premade, or 1v1 and it makes those characteristics even more potent.
edit: response after the fact
I would like to know where they're all hiding then when we're looking to fill our last infected spot. lol
No, actually Sci is the least played class on Federation at this time.
In my many many hours in Fed PvP at T5 you would be fortunate to see one Sci officer in a regular pug 5v5 match.
There are countless Tac and Engineers however.
But then again even if there were more Sci officers on Fed side it doesn't get around the issues surrounding BoPs.
It's a ship any captain type can jump into and Sci spam while enjoying all the PvP benefits I mentioned above....
Battle Cloaking/Evade is countered by tractor beam or scan. You know this. Also, when you pop that BoP out of cloak, they don't always get their shields up. So you get to do phaser (if you are using anything other than phasers, you really should consider switching.
The sci spam? Well, I personally hate that build, but even so, it is a weak build because it lacks both damage and defenses...especially with the upcoming nerf to cannons.
All in all, I feel that the advantages of the BoP are balanced with it's weaknesses. I am not saying that there aren't problems with pvp, but that you are focusing on the wrong aspects.
You make a good point, not denying this, however I think the issue is more subtle.
the solution in my opinion should not be to Nerf the Ship but rather to revise the ability/power.
For all intents and purposes, BOP's are the equivalent of a Science Ship from a Warrior society perspective. Within the premise of a War a science focus, takes on the Role of Scouting, intelligence gathering, infiltration, Sabotage, and the BOP is a perfect ship to this, it is supposed to be versatile.
Therefore in my opinion the Ship and its capabilities is not the issue causing imbalance, but rather the nature of the Abilities/powers combined with the capabilities of a versatile ship.
If we wish to really correct the imbalance it would be more effective to do it by eliminating the Overpowered Element, in this case, certain abilities and powers, that would need to be revised so that when combined with a versatile ship it does not result in an Overpowered mechanic.
In my opinion.
Ok first off, the popularity of the bird of prey versus the raptor in tier 5 has no basis on the discussion other than it hints at the PERCEPTION people have about strength, and not about the actual strength of the ship. If you want to try to argue that having 1 more turret with rapid fire going and 1 more disruptor console for even more damage doesn't equate to more dps than go ahead and try.
Also, if you want to kill someone in sub 5 seconds, you need to have at least: attack pattern beta 2, high yield 1, rapid fire 1, and ideally attack pattern alpha if you're a tac officer. If I loaded up a BoP with lets see. Feedback pulse 3, 2, VM 2, hazard emitters 1, science team 2, polarize hull and some other LT science ability for my Com and LT Com slots which would leave 2 LT BO slots for 1 engineer (for 1 RSP and engy team 1) and 1 Tac (for high yield 1 and rapid fire 1) I would do soooo much less burst damage than with my current build, I also would not have 2 ways to get out of VM as I do now (omega 3 and science team 2).
So why would I need someone to not being moving because of VM when I can sneak up to within 5 km and instagib people with my raptor?
This next point is basically the same as the first, you're using your own anecodatal evidence that points to the popularity of the bird of prey versus the raptor and therefor the BoP is better. This is a fallacy, just because something is popular DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BETTER or correct. And yes my position is precisely this: The raptor is on par with the bird of prey in pvp as the premier damage dealing platform available to klingons. Why do I need to fly a bird of prey when my Sci officer friends are already providing all the wonderful benefits you love to wag around like some banner. The Sci officers line up the ducks, the Engies keep me and the Sci officers alive, and I make the feddies dead.
I'd like to point out that evasive manuevers with high engine power against most people is get out of jail free by itself as most people choose not to pursue. Rsp won't help you however if they do pursue, you'll still need to drop shields at some point to battlecloak. I'm not saying battlecloak is useless, it has it's uses, but I don't agree with your stance on it. Also, did you really need to resort to calling into to question my ability to play the game simply because I don't agree with your position and provided my rationale for it?
IMO i think all fed ships should have atleast 1 LT CDR, or LT universal slot
Same goes for Klingons. (Exception the BoP, which is a multi purpose, jack of all trades, master of none type vessel)
What does the "K" on Klin(K) come from....I remember Klingon...where does this K develop from? Is this some sort of racial slur? Something we are not "suppose" tolerate IRL, but we tolerate in game? I can draw comparisons, but, I prefer not to.
No.
this line used to fill 10 chars.
These folks are only concerned about their own fun and could care less about anyone else.
They make blanket statements about our ships and combat and have never even bother to roll a Toon up to cap to really find out if their perceptions are correct.
It will be great when the 3rd faction is brought in and that faction stomps them too. Ohh the river that QQ will create....
I can't wait till the update when spacebar mashing will result in less damage because of the new changes. More rivers of QQ in the future.
Yeah, 3rd faction will be great. Klingons will go from 6 total players to 3.
Actually the popularity DOES have a direct relationship to it's usefulness in PvP.
Especially on a side that is mainly geared towards PvP functionality.
I'm not sure why you would think that someone is going to just randomly pick a specific ship type on a PvP faction "just because".
There is no logic in that, it doesn't make any sense, and it would be 100% wrong.
Just ask the Klink players in the OrganizedPvP channel.
Players are going to lean towards the more "OP" ship for obvious reason. lol
A few things.
#1. Sci spamming lasts longer then 5 seconds.
#2. Again loading up with primarily Tac Slots is unnecessary when Sci spamming.
Because VM does more then not make someone move.
It disables all their abilities (except team abilities) until they are hit with Sci team again or it's extremely long duration is completed.
No offense but I feel like I'm running a PvP Clinic here where you don't understand the full functionality of certain abilities.
A few things here -
#1. Because more Sci spamming atm is always best. It disables people from being able to help another person who was just Sci spammed.
#2. Because the only other ship with that type of Sci slot capability on Klink side is a Carrier and their Sci effectiveness is much less due to their turn rate.
This is the point of the conversation that gives me doubt you have ever done any T4-T5 PvP.
You seem to completely not understand how these abilities work and how they're used in normal PvP.
Allow me to reiterate - It is EFFORTLESS to distance yourself 15-20km away from your enemy using a Evasive Maneuver + RSP move then cloak.
This maneuver can be done in split seconds and is highly effective for survivability on a BoP.
Especially when the majority of players are still using Efficient engines and are CRUISERS.
Honestly I think a lot of this is a l2p on the side of the Klink players desperately trying to hold on to Sci Spamming BoPs that can Battle Cloak, have high survivability, and Fed escort "like" damage.
I really thought about this a little bit when I posted because of the fun factor that exists when I'm on my BoP PvPing.
However that fun factor is slowly fading because of the amount of ease that ship is to use in FvK PvP.
I really don't mind if someone here has a valid argument against my points.
But please at least have a basic understanding of PvP, don't try to fool PvP savvy players with silly comments based on fiction, and by all means counter the point with a fact or at least an opinion that can be based on some form of logic.
Saying that players choose a BoP over a Raptor not because of it's functionality and abilities in PvP but "just cuz" is a good example of a failed argument.
It ruins your credibility, wastes time on the forums, and most importantly wastes my time in replying if I choose to do so....
If the bop was turned into a sci ship, like the fed sci ship would you be happy? If not explain why.