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Crowd Control is out of Control, in this game.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
The CC in this game, in space and on the ground is just nuts. I've never seen a game with more CC in it than this one, and I've played nearly every major mmo that isn't native to Korea or Japan.

The sad thing is, the truly sad thing, is that somehow Cryptic seems to think that having the game based on Crowd Control is the way it should be, with the battles on the ground or in space being dictated by who has CC and who uses it faster. This is exactly what happens, is it not? Isn't it a fact that there are more sci officers every single day to the point where I would bet they are the most prevalent? (I refuse to level the one I made in Head Start, just in hopes that somehow they'll get toned way down). The old adage of "if you can't beat'em join'em" has been liberally applied here by the player base, which is why I have been in pvp battles in space in which the Federation side was ALL sci vessels with sci officers (I'm sure it is now happening on the Klingon side too).

Cryptic has heard it in these forums over and over about SNB, VM, and all the various holds on the ground.

SNB has no defense against it at all. VM is literally spammed (I've had one guy hit me with 3 VM) even while we're supposed to have "near immunity" after the first one. On the ground, there are probably a dozen ways a sci officer can hold you (engineers too but not as much), and since there is no difference between a root, hold or stun, it's the same thing. We still can't fight, there is no way to break it or clear it, and he who gets it to stick first wins.

Why the Devs think this is fun or takes skill is beyond me. When a Klingon BoP pops out of cloak, hits you with SNB and then VM, you are dead, period. There is nothing you can do about it, there is no defense against it, period. The Devs know about it, and yet they do NOTHING. The only difference with a Fed sci ship doing the same thing is that they aren't cloaked. (And yes, I primarily play Klingons)

I'm not privy to the priorities the Devs have as far as what they are going to put out, create, or fix. I have hopes that somebody at Cryptic will see that they have overdone Crowd Control abilities in space and on the ground by a country mile. I'm still working on the promise I made to myself with this game, that I would be patient and wait to see what will be fixed (whereas in past mmos I got sick of broken things fast). However, everybody including Gandhi and Buddha has a limit to their patience.

Cryptic, it's not fun being cc'd to death with no means to fight it. There's too much of it. I left my favorite game of all time, Dark Age of Camelot (and so did many others) for about a year and a half until Mythic got the point and put in diminishing returns and further adjusted the CC. And the CC at that time in DAOC was nowhere NEAR as bad as it is in this game. Please tone it way down and fix it.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WAR had more Crowd Control. Still has afaik. But yes they need to tone down subnucleonic beam and Viral Matrix.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Gotta agree, aside from the lack of Klingon opponents at Admiral level for PVP, there's really not much motivation to wait in line for an hour or two just to get held and vaporized in a few seconds every time I run into a Science officer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'd love to see a game that has no Crowd Contol or limited to things like snares, blind, daze..etc - basically abilities that remove control of the character are simply not fun.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WAR changed its crowd control so that stuns break when you take damage.

    not like this game, where you get stunned and never regain control of your character before dying.

    -ken
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    It sure is. Crowd control abilities, especially holding, need some balancing or diminishing returns.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Oh man, I remember the bad old days of AE Stun/Mez spam in DAOC. Pac healers were the worst. It made PvP a pain for a long time, and I LOVED PvP in that game. I was in a relic raid one time where the entire raid on auto-follow got nuked down by three Pac healers spamming AE stun with two Sup SMs spamming PBAE. It's not nearly as bad now, but that game is slowly dying now. It's sad because it still has some of the best PvP around.

    You're right that CC is getting pretty out of control in this game. It's not quite to the level of old school DAOC, but it's pretty close. If they simply added a counter to SNB and fixed the immunity timers it would really help. I have three T5 Captains, Tactical and Engineering on Fed side, and Science on Klingon. I usually reserve my SNB pwnage for Science ships that do it to me first, but it really shouldn't be happening at all. Here's hoping they don't take years to fix it like Mythic did.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Pirates of the Burning Sea pvp/game mechanics are what the devs should have looked at instead of these other fantasy games, I mean in POTBS the mechanics are simple, pvp fights are drawn out, strategic navel battles just like Star Trek should be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Cryptic really ruined STO with all these high level abilities and trying to pass this off as Star Trek. Well Cryptic, hate to tell you, but it's not!

    Everyone agrees that the best PvP in both Space and Ground is Tier 2. And why? Because it's not dependant on Special Abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    pvp fights are drawn out, strategic navel battles just like Star Trek should be.

    No they shouldn't, ship engagements in star trek are very very quick. Look at the mass battles during the Dominion war in DS9 ships getting one shotted etc etc. Or perhaps Borg cutting a ship in half with a energy weapon in one go.

    What about everyone dying from a single max setting phaser hit?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think the real answer is that Cryptic designed the skills with PvE in mind, not PvP.

    Any PvP game designer should know better than to include a lot of crowd control. Players always hate that stuff. But Cryptic designed a lot of them in because hey, CC is a classic RPG skill archetype and NPCs don't complain when you chain stun them.


    They just need to tone the stuff down.

    Having SNB put all your systems on timers is bad. Pick a few random systems or maybe just "all officers of a random type" and put them on timers rather than the entire ship. Same for Viral Matrix. Let it infect some random systems rather than the entire ship.


    People are reasonably content about dying if they can still at least act.

    The really hate it when they die without being able to act, though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dekkameron wrote: »
    No they shouldn't, ship engagements in star trek are very very quick. Look at the mass battles during the Dominion war in DS9 ships getting one shotted etc etc. Or perhaps Borg cutting a ship in half with a energy weapon in one go.

    What about everyone dying from a single max setting phaser hit?

    You shouldn't use TV as a justification - the ships have plot armor and weapons that everyone knows it's very OP.

    Ground Combat - is more like killing the guy with multiple stuns - or using the 2 shot exploit - which is nothing like TV.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    That's the Truth, Slamz. Reminds me of an old saying back in the early MMOs, "Never let players lose control over themselves". It's not too late for Cryptic to alter these abilities and make them PvE only.

    If we reduce the ammount of dependance on abilities, PvP might be fun again like it was back in Teir 2.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Slamz wrote:
    People are reasonably content about dying if they can still at least act.

    The really hate it when they die without being able to act, though.

    I agree with all of your post, but this last part strikes me a certain way (not a bad way). If more developers would adhere to this basic fact of life then I think all mmos would be better off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    No they shouldn't, ship engagements in star trek are very very quick. Look at the mass battles during the Dominion war in DS9 ships getting one shotted etc etc. Or perhaps Borg cutting a ship in half with a energy weapon in one go.

    Everyone knows that the defiant was op, and should have been nerfed. In TNG, the bridge officers were ridiculous op. Data, for instance, should never have been in the show. It was totally imbalanced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    CC is only powerful when used in conjunction with damage.

    In other words, there are two options when considering 'balance' for CC:

    1) Buff defensive abilities. The problem with this suggestion is that there are already problems with defensive chains (e.g., RSP chains). Unless the intention is to make combat last longer than it currently does, in which case healing would need to be reduced in order to allow combat to end at all.

    2) Add counters to the CC. In my opinion, Viral Matrix is fine now that Science Team works, and Attack Pattern Omega has always worked. (Sure, it might require 3x Science Teams, because of the debuff stack, but PVP is team-oriented after all.) All we need is Science Team to work during (and as a counter to) Subnucleonic Beam.

    ===

    I would also propose a completely separate option that would require time to develop: diminishing returns on target buff/debuff. (Others had already suggested caps and cooldowns on target buff/debuff stacks.) But this is not limited to CC abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    CC is only powerful when used in conjunction with damage.

    In other words, there are two options when considering 'balance' for CC:

    1) Buff defensive abilities. The problem with this suggestion is that there are already problems with defensive chains (e.g., RSP chains). Unless the intention is to make combat last longer than it currently does, in which case healing would need to be reduced in order to allow combat to end at all.

    2) Add counters to the CC. In my opinion, Viral Matrix is fine now that Science Team works, and Attack Pattern Omega has always worked. (Sure, it might require 3x Science Teams, because of the debuff stack, but PVP is team-oriented after all.) All we need is Science Team to work during (and as a counter to) Subnucleonic Beam.

    ===

    I would also propose a completely separate option that would require time to develop: diminishing returns on target buff/debuff. (Others had already suggested caps and cooldowns on target buff/debuff stacks.) But this is not limited to CC abilities.

    interestingly enough, when there are 2+ science debuffs on a target a self applied science team can "freak out" and not remove anything. It doesn't always happen, but thats what the preliminary testing showed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    interestingly enough, when there are 2+ science debuffs on a target a self applied science team can "freak out" and not remove anything. It doesn't always happen, but thats what the preliminary testing showed.
    If you can replicate it, this should really be reported in a ticket. Some QA folks pay close attention to the Tribble forums, so it might be worthwhile to replicate it on Tribble, ticket it, and then post a report in the Tribble Bug Forum.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    IMHO, some Science abilities like SNB and VM should be PvE only. If Cryptic did that, then that alone would remove a ton of headaches in the PvP community, enough that we all would be playing more on level ground. The only abuse would be limited to Jamming techniques.

    Other options include:

    1) Making Science Team more potent in being able to debuff multiple effects with a longer duration. So the more Sci Team techniques used on you, the shorter your Sci Team cooldown.

    2) Giving Engineering Teams cancelling abilities like Science Team. (After all, the Engineers are in charge of the computers, not the Scientists).

    3) Add a Sci Team Console that gives a Computer Anti-Hacking resistance. For instance: At Tier 2, a Sci Console has a 10% chance to counter the Jamming of a BoP. And at Tier 5, a Mk X Console has a %50 chance to counter Viral Matrix.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    Cryptic really ruined STO with all these high level abilities and trying to pass this off as Star Trek. Well Cryptic, hate to tell you, but it's not!

    Everyone agrees that the best PvP in both Space and Ground is Tier 2. And why? Because it's not dependant on Special Abilities.

    Actually it is...but it isn't conceded one way or the other on who has more CC and anti CC...

    ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The best solution imho would be this:

    Jam Sensors: Half duration vs players

    Viral Matrix: Breaks after X amount of damage done to you

    Subnucleonic Beam: Memory Alpha Description: This ability should work as in canon. It should snare you/reduce turnrate like warp plasma, disable weapons, but leave shields and at least defensive abilities intact.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    LordTareq wrote: »
    The best solution imho would be this:

    Jam Sensors: Half duration vs players

    Viral Matrix: Breaks after X amount of damage done to you

    Subnucleonic Beam: Memory Alpha Description: This ability should work as in canon. It should snare you/reduce turnrate like warp plasma, disable weapons, but leave shields and at least defensive abilities intact.

    Subnuc disabling ship systems. So Engineering skills should not remove the effect?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Just wanted to put my two cents in after 3 weeks of play.

    Seems most of my points have been metioned previously:

    PvP went from fun to tiresome the minute I hit RA. Part of is that irritating SNB, which I really wish they'd invent some kind of countermeasure for.

    The other issue of course, is the queues, which suddenly grew about 1000% in length (for Feds) when I leveled to RA. Are Klingon RAs that rare? I justed waited 20 minutes for a game with 3 Klingons in it.

    Bummed out 'cause I was really kind of loving PvP from Lt. through Commander.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Well, in the games defense, it's only been out a little over a month. I'm sure there will be a lot more people hitting Rear Admiral over the course of this month. I'm sure pvp queues will get better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    ReynoldsCK wrote:
    Well, in the games defense, it's only been out a little over a month. I'm sure there will be a lot more people hitting Rear Admiral over the course of this month. I'm sure pvp queues will get better.

    no not really, since we all know that more feds play than klinks, and most klinks either reroll a different character or quit once they hit t5. Qeues are only going to get worse unless something is done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The standard argument is "this is not a 1v1 game join a team". These players are called Klingons. They refuse to roll a Federation character and try to counter SNB + VM + CRF + HYT because they know deep down that it's impossible to survive if all of the Klingons have that combo. There is no way to survive 5 BoP's spamming SNB + VMx2. PvP right now is just a matter of how many Science Officers each side brings to the fight, nothing more to it at all.

    Toss up some resist buffs before they attack you say? How exactly can Federation players do that when you're cloaked? There's no way to tell when the attack will come until it's too late. PvP most of the time is all about who has more VM's and which team brought more Science Teams to cure the VM's. That's it.


    Nothing more can be said about this games pvp than that. Which is sad. Not sure I'm gonna pay for another month because it's not fun getting killed and not being able to push a SINGLE button to save myself. 5 BoP's can burst through whatever healing my 1-2 team mates who can move could ever do. PvP is broken and I'd rather play Bad Company 2 than this game. That's the truth.

    Granted my Science ship is outfitted for supreme heals and tanking. I've played in Borg Hunt for 30+ minutes just flying around killing people through long drawn out fights that required smart use of cooldowns. Then comes along this BoP who SNB's and VM's me and I die. A ship that is 100% dedicated to defense is completely helpless against this. Bad game design.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dealing with CC requires skill. Demanding to nerf CC means to have no skill. Lame.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Druuna wrote:
    Dealing with CC requires skill. Demanding to nerf CC means to have no skill. Lame.

    Dealing with CC requires belief in pagan gods. Demanding to nerf CC means to have no belief in pagan gods. Lame.

    See, I can write complete nonsensical rubbish too.:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    ReynoldsCK wrote:
    Well, in the games defense, it's only been out a little over a month. I'm sure there will be a lot more people hitting Rear Admiral over the course of this month. I'm sure pvp queues will get better.

    To expand upon what faithborn said, at T5 those who are still playing fed are playing it for PvP. In all other tiers the majority of fed players don't play PvP, but as it's all that's left when you get RA5, then every fed who is online is trying to PvP.

    Add this to the fact that, as faithborn said, there's not much to do as a Klingon at BG5 and many leave. Klingons are rare to begin with compared to feds, so it's really exacerbated in T5. Also, the typical fed player at RA5 hasn't leveled mostly with PvP, whereas every klink has. After 500+ games a lot of us get bored (not me, though, I'm still loving it)

    So really, it's hard to imagine that the queue will get better without FvF, which would likely be detrimental to klingons, or some massive PvE klingon content that will attract lots of players, but then they may not PvP.


    As for the original topic, some tweaks are definitely needed. I've been hit with SNB + VM + CRF + HYT from fed cruisers before and yeah, it sucks. Personally I just sit there, tell my teammates not to bother helping and that I'll be back in the fight shortly. :) I've never encountered a team, fed or klingon, that chain VM's, though of course YMMV.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I am a fed sci.. capt

    Nerfing a class core abilities, that affect their offensive and defensive capabilities, (both innate and core) where it will not allow a particular class to get stronger when they invest points into their core skills to access tier III, while other classes still get the increase power and use of their tier III abilities to the fullest, without making adjustment to them, does not seems right or fair.

    Are any of you who is calling to nerf science abilities, are willing to give science class back more DPS capabilities or better power in other areas - are all the people who cry nerf, before where Cryptic, had nerf the science shield and hull strength because people was complaining it was too tough, or give and reroll MES back to the state it was in CB/OB which really open up PVP, instead of what it is now.. are you willing to give this class more burst damage capabilities, that allow them to use other certain abilities with shorter CD in their key area to allows them to compete?

    Science ship and classes, have the weakest hull and DPS of any other class and most of science abilities are DOT with long CD on shared or global timer, are you willing to make adjustments on these,? and in other core area, like better cloaking abilities, better shield strength in return for nerfing a key class core abilities? especially SNB - since this is an innate skill for science class, are you willing to nerf your innate abilities?


    I know "attack omega counter VM "

    So here a question..Since SNB main focus is to "shut down the system" - Have anyone put enough skill points in all subs system " aux, repair, efficiency, performance" like (5 to 9 points in each and every area) and test it out, using the key BO abilities, ET, ST, Miracle, and others key system skills to determine the impact or see if these if enough skill points are invested have any effects and are the counter?

    Is seems me, these will be the systems that will determine the defensive and effectiveness how well SNB will work on you and how long SNB affect will last and are the counter to it.

    Crowd Control is the core of the science class abilities, this been stated from day 1 by Cryptic, and when you create your class and pick your ship. This is not new or something people did not understand, CC is the science class/ship core offensive and defensive system, we suppose to control the battlefield field, the ships, the movements, we doing what we suppose to do, and people want to penalty a class, because players are smart enough to figure out how to stack certain abilities.. The issues is not the abilities, the issue is the core design and allowing everyone (all classes) to have access to them and use it collectively, where perhaps, what is needed is either restriction or efficiency/damage cap modifier on using certain non-core abilities outside your specific class.

    Before crying nerf.. let take the time to understand everything first and how its impacts all classes, abilities, fractions and ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    blkjag wrote: »
    I am a fed sci.. capt

    Nerfing a class core abilities, that affect their offensive and defensive capabilities, (both innate and core) where it will not allow a particular class to get stronger when they invest points into their core skills to access tier III, while other classes still get the increase power and use of their tier III abilities to the fullest, without making adjustment to them, does not seems right or fair.

    Are any of you who is calling to nerf science abilities, are willing to give science class back more DPS capabilities or better power in other areas - are all the people who cry nerf, before where Cryptic, had nerf the science shield and hull strength because people was complaining it was too tough, or give and reroll MES back to the state it was in CB/OB which really open up PVP, instead of what it is now.. are you willing to give this class more burst damage capabilities, that allow them to use other certain abilities with shorter CD in their key area to allows them to compete?

    Science ship and classes, have the weakest hull and DPS of any other class and most of science abilities are DOT with long CD on shared or global timer, are you willing to make adjustments on these,? and in other core area, like better cloaking abilities, better shield strength in return for nerfing a key class core abilities? especially SNB - since this is an innate skill for science class, are you willing to nerf your innate abilities?


    I know "attack omega counter VM "

    So here a question..Since SNB main focus is to "shut down the system" - Have anyone put enough skill points in all subs system " aux, repair, efficiency, performance" like (5 to 9 points in each and every area) and test it out, using the key BO abilities, ET, ST, Miracle, and others key system skills to determine the impact or see if these if enough skill points are invested have any effects and are the counter?

    Is seems me, these will be the systems that will determine the defensive and effectiveness how well SNB will work on you and how long SNB affect will last and are the counter to it.

    Crowd Control is the core of the science class abilities, this been stated from day 1 by Cryptic, and when you create your class and pick your ship. This is not new or something people did not understand, CC is the science class/ship core offensive and defensive system, we suppose to control the battlefield field, the ships, the movements, we doing what we suppose to do, and people want to penalty a class, because players are smart enough to figure out how to stack certain abilities.. The issues is not the abilities, the issue is the core design and allowing everyone (all classes) to have access to them and use it collectively, where perhaps, what is needed is either restriction or efficiency/damage cap modifier on using certain non-core abilities outside your specific class.

    Before crying nerf.. let take the time to understand everything first and how its impacts all classes, abilities, fractions and ships.

    Dampening Field and Photonic Fleet are good enough for my Science Officer. SNB is not needed in this game at all.
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