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Ground pvp Holds, stuns, roots etc

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Do people really like this stutf?

If enough people don't maybe we can get Cryptic to look at the dynamic and remove/modify it.

There is nothing fun about being chain held and vaporized being able to do nothing.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Mike111 wrote:
    Do people really like this stutf?

    If enough people don't maybe we can get Cryptic to look at the dynamic and remove/modify it.

    There is nothing fun about being chain held and vaporized being able to do nothing.

    i have to say they are a bit over"kill" for lack of a better term.
    the amount of them being used is not showing a true skill set for a pvp match. when a person can chian spam thses skills it shows lack of tactical ability personally.
    on the flip side though, if the tactics are there to use, then by all means use them. if it makes a kill and/or win, then it will be used until nerfed or a new uber skill is brought forth.
    until then, you have to get a good grp of peeps with varied skills to offset them.
    i have played many pvp ground battles where it was an issue to a degree, but when you apply tactics that force the team using those holds as primary, you get the upper hand since THEY are forced to change gameplay.

    but yeah, there are too many of these around in my opinion as well. but i still play... :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    My dislike of hold spam is pretty well documented.

    Hold abilities such as stasis field are not so bad taken in isolation; nor is the % chance to hold on normal phaser attacks high enough to be that big a deal (again, taken in isolation).

    Of course, these things can't be taken in isolation; because right now they are just blending into the very aggravating problem that is expose and melee holds.

    Decouple stuns from exposes and melee attacks (maybe replace them with knockbacks, if there absolutely must be side effects), and I believe the game will be much improved.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Mike111 wrote:
    Do people really like this stutf?

    If enough people don't maybe we can get Cryptic to look at the dynamic and remove/modify it.

    There is nothing fun about being chain held and vaporized being able to do nothing.

    Yeah, now that sci is completly and utterly useless in space its time to get to work on nerfing the sci ground abilities to death.

    The sci guy uses holds to stop people shooting him? Nerf it. Ignore the increased dps of the tac or the huge shield buff of the engineer. Just nerf the sci abilites.

    In fact, why not just have sci just instantly die as soon as they spawn? That would save the time it takes to shoot them.

    I dont know why I care. I just switched to engineer after a night of trying to fight ships with better dps and more tank that are all able to instantly counter top tier sci spells with at 1 noob spell. Oh and their spells all still work and cant be countered.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I am a science officer and I rather enjoy the kits with a hold...we don't get nearly as many holds as you might think. In fact, Stasis Field is the only full disable we have. Things like Gravometric shift will root you, which I am also fine with, but not act as a full on stun. Tachyon Harmonic has a nice chance to knock you back/down.

    We can only get a max of two of those abilities on a kit, and that would be Stasis Field/Tachyon Harmonic. The kits that has that does not include a heal, nor does the kit with Gravometric Shift, so we give up on a class defining ability to take these kits.

    The stuns that need to be changed a bit are the stuns from exposes, which need to be lowered to about 2-3 seconds. The stun from the melee option on weapons also needs to be removed and turned into a knockback. I am also not keen on it exposing since the ability is spamable.

    Overall, I rather enjoy the mechanic from kit abilities and think it should stay.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I may have agreed with this post at T2 or T3 but at T5 it is very difficult to one shot someone that is fully shielded.

    If you are pvping as you should be a fully shielded character can no longer be one shotted. The hit points out gain the damage of the weopons by T5.

    As a Klingon if your engineers are doing there jobs and keeping there mates shields up exploit shots on exposed people can easily do there job.

    If you are keeping Shield/Heal pots on you then you should be fine. With out exploit/expose weopons the ground pvp would have to be totally revamped since getting 40 kills would take forever. I do enjoy the game as is but then again I play with pre-mades that play the game the way it was set up to be played.

    Some Pugs may not be as good but in general the Klingons do very well in this area to reduce full blown expose shots.

    I suppose an argument could be made that this combat system is not PUG friendly but over all I am happy with it.


    Vllad
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Personally, I love it. That's why I play science.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Some of these ground abilities seems to detract from Star Trek. After all how many times did we ever see Picard order Geordi or Crusher to root a person, so they wouldn't escape?

    Cryptic really needs to go back to the drawing board with PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think there are three main problems:

    1) Melee holds are too long. It should be 1 second, not 6, from a palm strike or rifle butt.
    2) Expose should NOT cause a 10 second integrated stun,
    3) Being hit with a stun should immediately give you an immunity timer to other stuns for at least double the duration of the stun that hit you. e.g., if a 2-second hand phaser stun hits you, you should be immune to other stuns for 4 seconds.


    There is some kind of immunity timer for holds but there's something wrong with it. I think maybe it's a timer for each type of hold -- e.g., after being hit by a melee hold you can't get hit by another melee hold for a short time, but you can still get hit by an Expose hold or a science hold, thus allowing for "chain holding".



    Really, a good team can deal with these issues but they are still bad for enjoyment and need to be addressed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    1) 1 agree. If you get hit by a palm strike, you're going to be flat on your rear, not standing up in a daze. So perhaps they change it from a stun to a knockback?

    2) Exposes need to be reduced to a 3 second timer, and the chance to expose be reduced so it's a rare occurance in PvP. And if in a root or stasis field, you can't be exposed.

    3) Too easy for chain stuns. Someone get stuned with a pistol and then a science tech throws on statis field, then spamms you with exposes until you are exposed and finish you off with an exploit kill.



    Also, it occured to me, that Engineers should have a limit on the number of fabrications they can have up. Because it's a trend where some engineers stack a ton of fabrications and use them to block doorways. So in PvP arenas, the more fabrications you have up, the shorter their lifetime.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There is something seriously wrong with the holds in this game.

    You can be held for like forever with different abilities, it's not fun.

    I'm really sick of snakedancing for half a minute without being able to do anything.

    After you have been held, you should get an immunity timer for a reasonable amount of time.

    Expose stuns are reaaaaaally annoying, it's bad enough that you can get killed by one shot. Not being able to do ANYTHING is just too much.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    ikenstein wrote:

    I dont know why I care. I just switched to engineer after a night of trying to fight ships with better dps and more tank that are all able to instantly counter top tier sci spells with at 1 noob spell. Oh and their spells all still work and cant be countered.

    If you're using spells you're not sci, you're a wizard. Repeat after me..space ships don't cast spells..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    1) 1 agree. If you get hit by a palm strike, you're going to be flat on your rear, not standing up in a daze. So perhaps they change it from a stun to a knockback?

    2) Exposes need to be reduced to a 3 second timer, and the chance to expose be reduced so it's a rare occurance in PvP. And if in a root or stasis field, you can't be exposed.

    3) Too easy for chain stuns. Someone get stuned with a pistol and then a science tech throws on statis field, then spamms you with exposes until you are exposed and finish you off with an exploit kill.



    Also, it occured to me, that Engineers should have a limit on the number of fabrications they can have up. Because it's a trend where some engineers stack a ton of fabrications and use them to block doorways. So in PvP arenas, the more fabrications you have up, the shorter their lifetime.

    1/ I knockback people with riflebutt all the time so Im guessing its a "chance to X" with knockback/knockdown/stun/expose... something I quite like.
    2/ Its tough enough to kill a competent medic as it is without this... 3 ppl pounding rifle butts, exploits and exposes still takes at least a minute. Plus If you nerf exposes you make it impossible for those of us who enjoy being outnumbered 2v5 from getting anywhere.
    3/ I would be against complete immunity based on 1 stun / KB / whatever. How about a buff stacking upto 5 times each time gives 20% resist chance (5 stack count and you are immune so need to make sure it scales downwards if someone has a trait based immunity as we dont want them being immune every 3 times for instance) but make it remove itself in the event of an actual resist (and also perhaps still apply the hold chance).

    In all though while I dont particularly mind the hold spam I dont like that the science abilities seems to be instant cast (while my weapon malfunction takes a few seconds to cast / activate once applied). I would be happy with a button (maybe replacing one of the middle / late tier ground skills which removed 1 stun/root etc - though not the related expose.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I actually am quite a fan of the system as it is right now.

    As a Tactical officer I admit I spam that rifle-butt like a Monty Python sketch as it is one of only two ways I have to expose, but I wouldn't mind if they eliminated the expose. And perhaps some of the hold times are excessive, but honestly I have the most fun when both teams seem to know what the hell they are doing and there is a 5v5 shoot out between doorways. I have been a part of fights between groups that have lasted 5 mintues without ANY kills on eithr side, and that is WITH the exploits, just amazing skill on both sides. Everybody knows their class and are busting their TRIBBLE to stay alive and wait for that one chance to tip the scales. To me, THAT feels like the most Trek like experience, or at least the most action movie experience.

    As someone mentioned previously, at T4, and I would imagine the situation would be exacerbated in T5, even an exploit shot does not always garuntee an insta-kill. Without expose/exploits, some characters would be almost impossible to kill. I ran into a fed last night named Jade who was esentially unkillable if it werent for holds/exposes. By the end of the match, I had 22K dmg, and I am guessing more than half of that was from chasing her and her 23K HEALING down all round. (GG btw, Jade.)

    I honestly think people just haven't hit their stride yet. Only been a month and not everyone has the time to learn the ins and outs and not everyone is amazing at PvP, but I have ben seeing more and more fun matches lately, and I love it.

    The pending changes in the patch that I have read about actually worry me. Global cool down on expose/exploit attacks I feel will actually make exposes more prevailant. Myself, I run with two exploit weapons to do the dps and rely on allies to do the exposing. Well if I'm going to get the cool down and not be able to swap exploits, I may as well start exposing people too. And on the flip side, all the folks running full expose waiting for guys like me to take the exploit will likely have to equip an exploit weapon themselves, so now the chances for insta-kill seem like they will be higher in my book.

    I wish they would leave things like they are for another month or so, so enough people can really sink their teeth into PvP at the higher levels.

    PS: I submit that Smoke Grenade is the most under appriciated/utilized skill from the Tactical side.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Darkstahr wrote: »
    If you're using spells you're not sci, you're a wizard. Repeat after me..space ships don't cast spells..

    I do Force Choke from my TIE fighter in the Quonos system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shaun421 wrote: »

    The pending changes in the patch that I have read about actually worry me. Global cool down on expose/exploit attacks I feel will actually make exposes more prevailant. Myself, I run with two exploit weapons to do the dps and rely on allies to do the exposing. Well if I'm going to get the cool down and not be able to swap exploits, I may as well start exposing people too. And on the flip side, all the folks running full expose waiting for guys like me to take the exploit will likely have to equip an exploit weapon themselves, so now the chances for insta-kill seem like they will be higher in my book.

    I wish they would leave things like they are for another month or so, so enough people can really sink their teeth into PvP at the higher levels.

    PS: I submit that Smoke Grenade is the most under appriciated/utilized skill from the Tactical side.

    I want to see what things are like with he cool down and expose changes. I've been doing alot of ground pvp lately. I'm far from an expert..but the number of people I see who've figured out how to chain expose is growing. An expose/exploit every now an then is a fun suprise. But it shouldn't be something that regularly happens in PvP IMHO. From what I can see a few Science players have figured out how to reliably expose/exploit...and that really takes the fun out of it.

    Now if we can just get rid of melee hold spam..pvp would be perfect....:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Darkstahr wrote: »
    From what I can see a few Science players have figured out how to reliably expose/exploit...and that really takes the fun out of it.

    Surely its just use of skills, I find it hard believe there is some magic button or combination of skills which procs exposes on more than a 10% chance or whatever the documented chance is, it's just that science get more expose abilities and AoE exposes at that, they are also the only class capable of removing the exposes so if fighting a competent medic it will always appear as if they are exposing more than you. A combination of bad luck and competent players is not "reliably".

    Oh and smoke grenade is far from underused all I get after I weapon malfunction a tact is grenade spam (nothing wrong with that of course if its the only thing they can do)...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    ikenstein wrote:
    In fact, why not just have sci just instantly die as soon as they spawn? That would save the time it takes to shoot them.


    FINALLY, an idea we can all get behind and support.... "Ikenstein Maneuver" FTW
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