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PVP.. Sticking it out when you are losing

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Due to some wierd quirks the game sometimes creates uneven teams, sometimes the Klingons outnumber the Feds and sometimes reversed, seldom have I seen a true even teams.

But as the only saying goes, when playing in a ground PVP match and it is you against the masses, or your team is outnumbered; stay and fight!

Nothing is more irritating than having a ground PVP match that starts with one of one side and 5 of the other, then after being killed the first time the one stays dead for 5 minutes, then respawns and leaves.

Many times I have been in a ground PVP match with just me against 5 Klingons... what do I do? I make them earn thier kills, sure they will win but they will earn everyone of my deaths and if I am lucky I will kill a couple of them. If I am really lucky I will be joined by other feds who will turn the tide of the battle.

In the end, I get a reward and the opposing faction gets a reward; if I just leave or lay there dead I will get nothing except a loss of time.

So if you are in a losing situtaion, remember... "Today is a good day to die... over and over and over and (etc...)... :D
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The reason that uneven teams would occure, was due to people Queueing into multiple types of maps. If you Queue into 3 different maps, and one "pops" your still in the other two.

    I'm hoping the devs fix it so that when you/your team enters a Queue, and then goes into a PVP Match, it'll remove everyone else from their Queues. Still might not keep the problem from happening how ever.


    And I do agree, if you get stuck in a situation where you can't win because it's 5v1 (ESPECIALLY in ground) just stick with it. It's still Exp. Still credit towards your missions.. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'm going to go out on a stretch and guess that you are/were a WoW player... they seem to have this "farming/clubbing" mentality regarding pvp.

    Where you might see the whole endeavor as a process of amassing points or easy leveling, there are other types of player out there who are looking at the match itself.. the competition, testing game skill against other people, the pride associated with a hard fought win/loss. To a player like this, staying down and waiting for more people to show up and balance out the teams is far more logical then mindless zerging and putting their side into a point hole that cannot be dug out of if/when other people arrive.

    In my experience, the guys ranting "stay and fight" are usually sitting on the stacked team. Don't expect everyone to play the game the way you want it just because you see it in a certain way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I've been manually removing myself from queues when one pops. I see which one popped, leave the other two, then join. It's a workaround players can do to prevent the uneven teams, if they care enough about it to make the effort.

    When I'm outnumbered on ground, I do hit and run. Try to get an expose, run away, if I got the expose, do a quick exploit and keep running. I've maintained a lead being outnumbered 4 or 5 to 1 several times. If the opposing team is too good, I might slow down my respawning to not build too many points, but I don't think it's nice to leave the other team waiting there without any point opportunity at all (maybe no one else will join).

    I PVP for fun and points (since that's the only way my klingon can advance), but fun is my driving force. Outnumbered is a challenge, and losing points at the beginning and making them up at the end is part of that challenge.

    And yeah, just cause a match starts horribly unbalanced doesn't mean you can't win it. Given the odds of competent and idiots on both sides, you can probably turn it around when more join (which they probably will). At the least, staying and finishing it gives everyone rewards and keeps people PVPing, which is what any of us that want to PVP should want.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'm going to go out on a stretch and guess that you are/were a WoW player... they seem to have this "farming/clubbing" mentality regarding pvp.

    Where you might see the whole endeavor as a process of amassing points or easy leveling, there are other types of player out there who are looking at the match itself.. the competition, testing game skill against other people, the pride associated with a hard fought win/loss. To a player like this, staying down and waiting for more people to show up and balance out the teams is far more logical then mindless zerging and putting their side into a point hole that cannot be dug out of if/when other people arrive.

    In my experience, the guys ranting "stay and fight" are usually sitting on the stacked team. Don't expect everyone to play the game the way you want it just because you see it in a certain way.

    Your assumption and prognosis are both incorrect.

    The problem with your statement is you don't know me and you attempt to claim knowledge and concepts that are far beyond your reasoning.

    My purpose for putting this post on is to request people to just stick it out rather than waste everyone's time.

    While there may be a few who seek the challenge of balanced combat seldom in combat is there balance, ask any former Iraqi soldier. I have found in many cases that these people leave and then the other teams starts to leave and more people show up.

    With the new system (Kudos Cryptic) of not having opposing players displayed on the map, a game of hide and snipe actually becomes more viable. A true challenge is when you have a group against a single opponent who proves to be capable of taking them all on with some measurable chance of victory.

    But even in a no win situation, every battle can be a learning experiance.

    Please never associate my name with WoW again, I told the child molesting lead developer what I felt about his game at Blizzcon after they unveiled what I considered the total loss of viability for intelligent players.

    Back to the topic hand...

    There is no reason to leave a game, even if you are outnumbered; if anything it gives a good player a chance to try new tactics or at least hone old ones. When I am outnumbered I stay and my goal is to ensure that the enemy earns each and every kill of me. Sometimes the kill is easy for them, like when I respawn 3 feet from the group, other times they have to hunt me down. If I can take one of them out so much the better.

    Numbers does not always predict a win, if you have a group and one straggler; that one straggler can cost you the game; as a singleton; that one straggler is my primary target because while I may not be able to take on 4 players working together, I can probably take one player soloing away from the group.

    My only intent is to ask people to not waste other peoples time, especially when the greatest challenge and most rewarding challenge may be what is given you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but

    I dont PvP to get XP/monies/shinies or even to win.
    I PvP for the thrill of fighting an opponent on even terms, I have no interest in 1v5 or 5v1 fights.

    As such, Ill leave the match if it doesnt happen to be 2 equally sized teams, anything else is a waste of my time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but

    I dont PvP to get XP/monies/shinies or even to win.
    I PvP for the thrill of fighting an opponent on even terms, I have no interest in 1v5 or 5v1 fights.

    As such, Ill leave the match if it doesnt happen to be 2 equally sized teams.

    Which just exasperates the problem..

    *sigh*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Lugh wrote: »
    Which just exasperates the problem..

    *sigh*

    Maybe so, can you give me just one reason why I should do something I dislike? (besides "let the other team gank you to their tokens/xp/whatever")

    *edit*

    Also, can you tell me the point of PvP, if the teams isnt equal size.. Would a soccermatch 7vs11 people make sense?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Maybe so, can you give me just one reason why I should do something I dislike? (besides "let the other team gank you to their tokens/xp/whatever")

    *edit*

    Also, can you tell me the point of PvP, if the teams isnt equal size.. Would a soccermatch 7vs11 people make sense?

    Make sense no...but competing well being down a man or more and perhaps even winning.. is a true test of skill.

    You never know precisely what you can do if you never push yourself..

    As a for instance. Intramural flag football first game of the season our team was down one guy and we played anyway... we lost that game,by a single score no less...and went 15-1 for the season. Beating that same team again regular and play game wise.

    We learned to play better as a team doing things with less people..

    And sometimes equal numbers turns ooooo Goood game outnumbered dudes..into a ROFLstomp on the weaker team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Lugh wrote: »
    Make sense no...but competing well being down a man or more and perhaps even winning.. is a true test of skill.

    You never know precisely what you can do if you never push yourself..

    As a for instance. Intramural flag football first game of the season our team was down one guy and we played anyway... we lost that game,by a single score no less...and went 15-1 for the season. Beating that same team again regular and play game wise.

    We learned to play better as a team doing things with less people..

    And sometimes equal numbers turns ooooo Goood game outnumbered dudes..into a ROFLstomp on the weaker team.

    True, and if I feel that I can get additional teammembers Ill wait on the map a minute or two, and usually if my team have the numbers Ill stay cloaked (I play Klingon atm) until numbers are even, Ill even say it in zonechat. If however my team proceeds to massgank a lone opponent sitting at his/her spawn, Ill hyper out.. As I said, I have no interest in anything but "fair" fight.

    I can and have gone 1v2 and 1v3 and either won, or been close to winning. But the problem is still that it isnt a "even" fight. I also avoid excessive stacking of skills (only skill Ive ever used two of is RSP, and that was only in my Galaxy) simply because stacking 3+ VMs for example are OPd in my mind.)

    All this because I have some twisted sense of fairness I guess..

    As for the "weaker" team you mention, if they are so bad that they get ROFL stomped in a 5v5 fight, its not my fault right..

    I would 100 times rather lose a 5v5 match 14/15 than win a 5v1 15/0
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There is no better way to quickly learn your ship/class inside out than to PVP, and there's no better way to learn how to face a true and seemingly impossible situation than by facing it in PVP.

    Yeah, when I've got 5 Ks beating on me with their front cannons all at once I know I'm not getting out alive, but the lessons I very quickly learned about shield facings and defensive powers when those 5 ships were battering me sure came in handy the countless times I've had 2 Ks beating on me and I needed to buy my team some time to come to my rescue. Thanks to sticking it out when I know victory is impossible, I have the skills to keep myself alive and help my team win when things are even and close.

    Oh, and there's also the issue of people proving themselves to be cowards by running out on a fight, but that's self-evident.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I had this problem last night.

    Usually the first PvP to pop is the ground combat. Granted as a new and fresh klingon player i am only using what I was given when I started the game.

    I spawned into the match and there at the spawn point was one other person, so we grouped up. 10 sec later we are both dead as 6 fed officers show up. My partner gives up and leaves after dieing twice because of the unbalance. To be honest I was about to do the same, except there is no Honor in running from a fight when your a Klingon. Ill leave that to the Romulans.

    I am however no fool enough to engage multiple enemies at the same time. So I kited them away from each other taking pop shots at the closest when i could. After a bit more comrades decide to join the fun and now the teams were more evenly matched. Our side was down in points by 5 however by the end of the match we brought it back up to being 2 points down.


    I understand the frustration of fighting a losing battle, but I will not deny my enemy or myself the privilage of dieing in battle.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    To me space and ground are different for this...

    In space, if I'm the only one on my team I'll still give it my best. I know that I'm going to lose in a 5v1 against me unless the 5 are REALLY bad, but that's ok. I try my best.

    On the ground, however, I don't. Why? In space it's up to 15 kills. On the ground it's 40.

    If it were 15 then no problem. I'll stay around for that. But since it's 40, it just takes way too long, especially if I'm actually trying. That's just no fun and, since this is a game, I'll leave. I always say so in zone chat, though. I hate it when people leave without telling anyone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree with the OP. People should stick it out and fight. Whenever I am outnumbered I go out there and give it my all.

    I had a ground match last night on my science officer, Valera. It was 5v1, I get instantly killed when I enter the match since the Feds were sitting on the spawn in. No worries, I even thanked them for the warm greeting (energy weapons are quite warm, you know).

    I then proceeded to kite them around the map and kill anyone that I happened to expose. I had a pretty good lead and more than half the match over with by the time another player showed up. I still didn't really team up with them but for a few times that we happened to run into eachother. We won that match with two and I would have won it solo if no one else had shown up.

    You have to give it your best no matter what, you never know what you will be capable of.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    For Ground, there is no reason to stay in a 5-on-1 situation. None.

    If they stay grouped, and have half a brain, then its just a waste of your time.

    If anything, just run in and fall on their swords.

    For one thing, unless you have damage buffs/skills, people are surviving Exposes/Exploits more and more, so even lucky hit and run shots may not get you much.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ignoring the OP, but since it's an interesting topic -- twice I have been the solo man against 5 enemies. Both times (as one of those annoying turret spamming, tons of heals and shield recharges and mines Engineers) I was able to put up at least a decent fight rather than die instantly. Both times the Klingons actually RP'd it and challenged me to one-on-one unarmed combat after a bit.

    I died, but I had a ton of fun. IF you get in that situation, try chatting and letting them know the situation. Sometimes they may be jerks and shoot you full of holes....but sometimes it can be fun even if it's not very productive for you. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I do my best to stick it out even under the worst odds.

    Korthos
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    imo, if the player is not having fun, that player should leave. Who wants an emotional distress player to kill over and over and over...not me, I want players who enjoy the game, not whine, QQ or cry, complain, and accuse others of hacking or cheating. (unless, of I am playing me Fed I would do all that, to instigate....uh..yeh.)


    5 v 1, bye bye

    1 v 5, bye bye

    players screaming hacks, cheats, whining....added to my list of ignored TRIBBLE. they should be honored to be on such a list. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nothing wrong with waiting while dead, and if players aren't joining within 5-10 minutes you probably won't be seeing more. Just leave, requeue, have some fun. If a team of 5v1 can't propose duels or even wait for a fair balance, then they can stick it out in a prolonged cycle of spawnkilling someone, their leaving, more waiting ad nauseum. It'll take them far longer to complete a game than if they just waited for teams.

    You shouldn't claim rewards and time already invested as a reason to suicide yourself, or thinly disguise it as an experience opportunity. You should know how to defend yourself, you can learn that even if you don't have a stove under your TRIBBLE. You also don't learn anything as the group of 5 against the 1--why it would be implied that the group of 5 is doing the lesser team a favor by attacking them all at once is just inane. At T5 there's no reason to sit around in imbalanced games, you max out on everything points can get you very quickly. Stick around for a bit, wait it out, leave if it doesn't improve. Never be afraid to walk away from an ante.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    For Ground, there is no reason to stay in a 5-on-1 situation. None.

    If they stay grouped, and have half a brain, then its just a waste of your time.

    If anything, just run in and fall on their swords.

    For one thing, unless you have damage buffs/skills, people are surviving Exposes/Exploits more and more, so even lucky hit and run shots may not get you much.

    For ground there is no reason to play. Expose Exploit win. BORING.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    MAK0 wrote: »
    Your assumption and prognosis are both incorrect.

    The problem with your statement is you don't know me and you attempt to claim knowledge and concepts that are far beyond your reasoning.

    My purpose for putting this post on is to request people to just stick it out rather than waste everyone's time.

    While there may be a few who seek the challenge of balanced combat seldom in combat is there balance, ask any former Iraqi soldier. I have found in many cases that these people leave and then the other teams starts to leave and more people show up.

    With the new system (Kudos Cryptic) of not having opposing players displayed on the map, a game of hide and snipe actually becomes more viable. A true challenge is when you have a group against a single opponent who proves to be capable of taking them all on with some measurable chance of victory.

    But even in a no win situation, every battle can be a learning experiance.

    Please never associate my name with WoW again, I told the child molesting lead developer what I felt about his game at Blizzcon after they unveiled what I considered the total loss of viability for intelligent players.

    Back to the topic hand...

    There is no reason to leave a game, even if you are outnumbered; if anything it gives a good player a chance to try new tactics or at least hone old ones. When I am outnumbered I stay and my goal is to ensure that the enemy earns each and every kill of me. Sometimes the kill is easy for them, like when I respawn 3 feet from the group, other times they have to hunt me down. If I can take one of them out so much the better.

    Numbers does not always predict a win, if you have a group and one straggler; that one straggler can cost you the game; as a singleton; that one straggler is my primary target because while I may not be able to take on 4 players working together, I can probably take one player soloing away from the group.

    My only intent is to ask people to not waste other peoples time, especially when the greatest challenge and most rewarding challenge may be what is given you.

    You lost as soon as you tried to compare PVP to real life warfare.

    I can argue that when you are on a team of 5 and going against 1 you could just hold back and wait. You could take turns sending one of your team against the sole guy. There are so many options for this but the only one you seem to choose and see is the "take a death" one. Myself, depends on my mood, sometimes I stay and fight, sometimes I "toy" with the team of 5 and tease them, and sometimes I just leave to find a better game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There is absolutely nothing fun about being someone punching bag, especially when someone is spamming emotes like a jerk, celebrating his five on one victory. F-that, I'm not giving them the satisfaction of finishing the game and giving them easy xp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'll generally stick it out, even if I'm vastly out-numbered. With a little luck, I can pull off some expose/exploit kills on the ground, and sometimes can even come out on top against a couple less experienced players attacking at the same time. I know I won't win ever match, and that I'm pretty much guaranteed to loose if I'm on the less populated side of a 5v1, but there's no sense in making everyone else in the match suffer because of the problems with the queues. I WILL, however, leave a match if the other side decides to be poor sports and sling insults because a vastly outnumbered team cannot overcome them -- you folks can get your kills from someone else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Space battles. to 15 points, I won't quit. Ground is another matter. I have no interest in staying through 40 kills in a vastly uneven game.

    Reduce the silly 40 point condition! 15 was maybe too low, but 40 is way too high.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I've always hung around to the bitter end myself. :)

    And I never, ever, making mocking emotes in PVP. I consider it rude and hardly a good way to build the PVP community.

    /e Salute
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Igax wrote: »
    You lost as soon as you tried to compare PVP to real life warfare.

    I can argue that when you are on a team of 5 and going against 1 you could just hold back and wait. You could take turns sending one of your team against the sole guy. There are so many options for this but the only one you seem to choose and see is the "take a death" one. Myself, depends on my mood, sometimes I stay and fight, sometimes I "toy" with the team of 5 and tease them, and sometimes I just leave to find a better game.

    Had something like that myself this morning...one guy fed side was content to stand off and let me take on one of his 4 buddies...sadly the 4 decided it wasn't fair I was still winning when that happened so they dogpiled me to an epic 8 deaths before anyone else joined the match...it was 2 to 8

    Klingons won the match 15 to 11 once the sides even'd ...:eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Niblik wrote: »
    I've always hung around to the bitter end myself. :)

    And I never, ever, making mocking emotes in PVP. I consider it rude and hardly a good way to build the PVP community.

    /e Salute

    I am the same way.. there been a few times where I was either the only Fed or end being the one left, because people quit earlier against 4 or 5 klinks,.. I still stay to end and fought them out of respect, even though I try to tell them on the other side it just me.. which some of them do not care.

    However, there a few times, where I was alone against a group of 4 or 5 klings, where we agree to take turn one vs one, or two vs one..and we share comments and notes on tactics. These kind of groups with these type of pvp players who does this have my greatest respect, because they believe in fair play.

    I stay regardless, how many are against me.. no matter how many times I died.. because each encounter is teaching me and I am trying to learn using different tactic/setup/abilities, so when I do get into 3 or 5 against 1, I may survive and last longer and longer. I consider it a testbed to learn and gain experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    And I do agree, if you get stuck in a situation where you can't win because it's 5v1 (ESPECIALLY in ground) just stick with it. It's still Exp. Still credit towards your missions.. :rolleyes:

    My first few PVP experiences were like that. Ground combat. Really outnumbered. Once I got past that, and realized that I still get EXP, still get mission credit, I stopped being so flustered by it. And started having a bit more fun. Yes, it's way more fun when both sides are more evenly matched so everyone can have a challenge and engaging experience.

    But when it's lopsided, oh well. Even losing gets me one step closer to that reward I'm collecting medals for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    meh feds no longer stick around to finish the current battle, they have started disconnecting to avoid death and reconnecting only to start nice and fresh at the spawn point.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I really enjoyed ground PvP for a long time. I have multiple characters that only did ground PvP, and I would play for hours on end.

    Then the crowd control started to take over.

    Now you have people who build to take as much crowd control as possible, and teams who turn up with so much of it that you almost never get a chance to do anything before you're held, held, held, rooted, weapon malfunctioned, exposed, dead.

    This is not fun.

    On top of that, some people then mash button 3 attacks to keep you held until exposed after holding you with some other ability.

    This is even less fun.

    So, no, I am not going to go 1 vs 5 against teams who do this to me - I'd rather quit out and go find another fight that is more even. I'm not here to give five people their 40 kills, I'm here to have fun and interesting fights.

    If the queue system is fixed and crowd control toned down a lot, I'd have no reason to ever quit a ground PvP match - win or lose, I'd at least be playing even sides and able to do something most of the time.

    Currently though, I'll quit games that are not fun for me, and I will not fault the players on either side who do the same, or choose to wait for more team members before respawning.

    Edit for poor typing :D
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