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A question ot the klinks

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
So after being kicked out of the "organizedpvp" channel which is just a klink bar room for crying about feds whether winning or losing I asked this question.
How does a fed team (premade or PUG) stop this situation.
1 - klinks all sci officers in BOP's built with VM and maxed out weapons and consoles to go for DPS.
2 - All stealth up and buff up with various abilities to make them even deadlier
3 - stay at max range so not even a science fed with maxed out AUX can bring them out with Sensor scan, or the klinks are smart enough to wait for a sensor scans to wear off then move in closer ( but no need to)
4 - Each select a different target on the fed team
5 - All at once each hit subnuc on their targets followed by VM
6 - ASAP all move to one klink's target (prolly the science vessels if they were smart) and focus firing killing that fed off in a matter of 3-5 seconds (less for escorts and more for cruisers obviously)
7 - switching targets and repeating it till they get 3-4 feds dead then simply killing the left overs
8 - restealthing up and waiting for CD's to repeat that pattern to victory
9(optional) - if for some god forsaken reason more than 2 feds are alive after the Subnuc wears off and the VM wears off and they are worried (for what i am not sure about) they can pop EM and engine battery and combat cloak out to wait for CD's

Now this question is what got me kicked out of the channel when klink "champions" like @hivewasp and the genius Havok couldn't answer the question so they turned the conversation into "ohh feds are crying" "feds can't play" and other typical expected klink vicitm talking points.
My point, when I entered the channel and saw someone talk about a BOP class ship was "They need to give feds a BOP archtype ship and not escort becasue they do not match up". I will admit the escort is the closest thing feds have to a BOP but by no means is it a BOP.
Now rather than turning this into another klink flame fest or them complaining feds are "qq-ing" I would love to hear a klink player give a way out of this situation, or at least say what my last words were in the "organizedpvp" channel "it's not possible they for sure need to balance that out"
Now there are many ways to balance it with either the ship / ability restrictions, or with cloak (on both sides)
with subnuc or VM (which I pray to god they actually do tweek, and this is coming from a science officer player)
So any klinks, especially @hivewasp or Havok@kamoi care to answer the riddle as how feds are to counter / deal with that situation efficiently and effectively?
i will say that there were some klinks int he channel that saw the problem and even said that there is no way to counter it or even survive it. but I seriously would love to see other klinks answer to it.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    akumarev wrote:
    So after being kicked out of the "organizedpvp" channel which is just a klink bar room for crying about feds whether winning or losing I asked this question.
    How does a fed team (premade or PUG) stop this situation.
    1 - klinks all sci officers in BOP's built with VM and maxed out weapons and consoles to go for DPS.
    2 - All stealth up and buff up with various abilities to make them even deadlier
    3 - stay at max range so not even a science fed with maxed out AUX can bring them out with Sensor scan, or the klinks are smart enough to wait for a sensor scans to wear off then move in closer ( but no need to)
    4 - Each select a different target on the fed team
    5 - All at once each hit subnuc on their targets followed by VM
    6 - ASAP all move to one klink's target (prolly the science vessels if they were smart) and focus firing killing that fed off in a matter of 3-5 seconds (less for escorts and more for cruisers obviously)
    7 - switching targets and repeating it till they get 3-4 feds dead then simply killing the left overs
    8 - restealthing up and waiting for CD's to repeat that pattern to victory
    9(optional) - if for some god forsaken reason more than 2 feds are alive after the Subnuc wears off and the VM wears off and they are worried (for what i am not sure about) they can pop EM and engine battery and combat cloak out to wait for CD's

    great now you are in the forums, the organizepvp isn't for QQ'rs. Must be a reason for you being kicked. Your question was valid, but the way you asked and kept egging it on those players to answer ur question, but they can't they are not the devs, and most likely they never ran with such a set up for pre made teams.

    Most likely even skilled klingon players utilizing ur 1-9 list will not kill the entire fed/kling team in one pass.

    Hmm, I don't pay attention to my klingon space abilities, but we get subnuc?

    oh we do? as science. question runs down to what class is the player also playing as.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Rook0024 wrote:
    akumarev wrote:
    Most likely even skilled klingon players utilizing ur 1-9 list will not kill the entire fed/kling team in one pass.

    Hmm, I don't pay attention to my klingon space abilities, but we get subnuc?
    Please reread the post and pay attention to the details I laid out, the details if you know what you are talking about explain it all. Like those players in the channel that did not actually read what I typed and rather chose to simply take parts of it and use it as what was said you miss the details and the facts.
    And you are correct I did egg on 2 players to answer it, after I was personally attacked like alot of klinks do the second a fed proposes a solid question to which klinks must finally realize "hey maybe the feds have a point when they say that klinks have some serious balance issues that need to be addressed".

    Booting me out of the channel was great it showed that the people in charge of that BS channel are klinks looking for a forum in game to shove the BS around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The OrganizedPVP channel has far more Feds in it than Klinks.

    Are you really looking for an answer or is this just another nerf the Klingons thread because __________________ .

    I think this post is more about trolling than about learning. Have a nice evening.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I guess whern I asked for an answer from a klink player I wasn't clear on that, so to clarify for the "hard of reading"....
    ME WANT KLINK POINT OF VIEW ON QUESTION.
    As far as the "nerf klinks" I could have swore I even said myself that there tweeks needed on both sides...Yup there it is "Now there are many ways to balance it with either the ship / ability restrictions, or with cloak (on both sides)
    with subnuc or VM (which I pray to god they actually do tweek, and this is coming from a science officer player)"
    again I am sorry for not being clear on my words, again let me clarify for you Mike111
    ME WANT BALANCE FOR ALL SIDES OF GAME C ABUV 4 XAMPELS.
    I hope that I clarified my post for you Mike111 and any other players that might have questioned the validity of my post and my intent.
    thanks again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I have yet to see anything resembling an answer to his question...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    there is no answer , its uneven on both sides, all these ******** powers for weapons should be dumbed way the hell down or removed, it makes pvp no fun for anyone.the bickering back and forth is never going to stop unless tthis happens, and its on both sides not just one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    there is no answer.

    Friend, I think that IS the answer he was looking for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shadowrising - good answer, Ide like to hear from more klinks but really feds CAN NOT do that since they CAN NOT cloak in or out of combat and klinks can. Some balance to cloak / anti cloak would be good.
    But really thanks for being real about it.
    other klinks care to solve the riddle?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Yeah we can do it in Battle. I can't tell you the last time I did though. It is usually better just to die and come back. It takes forever to heal.

    Not a science guy but working on one. No clue how the sci skill works SNB I am sure I have been hit with it on the other side. I get hit will all sorts of nasty things I don't like. Most times I live but not always.

    Is the real issue not being able to initiate the battle? We pretty much dictate when and where the fight will take place. It is hard to take it to a force you can't see. I can empathize. It is different playing my Fed toon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I dont really have an issue with not starting the fight. We wait for the klinks to hit us then game on. What I take issue with is going from 100% hull to dead, 5 seconds into the fight, all while unable to use a single ability. That isnt fun, and it happens often enough to make me dislike T5 pvp. Getting hit with the "LTP noob" stick every time it gets brought up doesnt help much.

    personally, the long queue times dont help either but there isnt much anyone can do about that. let say you get into three matches a night. When match 1 is vs 5 carriers and their 50 pets per carrier, match 2 you spend either respawning or under the effects of VM+SNB, and in match 3 everyone has multiple FBP?

    I'm here to have fun, if its not fun...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I will agree with not being able to do anything. This is a common complaint across many MMO's.

    I don't much care for ground combat because of the 5 percent holds that hit everytime.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    CasusX wrote: »
    I have yet to see anything resembling an answer to his question...

    The simple answer is this. Its the same thing that happens when a team of Sci based feds do the same deal with sci ships + escorts...the escorts may not sport VM but they do have SNB ....

    And yes its an unbeatable combo...either side
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Lugh wrote: »
    And yes its an unbeatable combo...either side
    Yep.

    SNB is frankly overpowered. Klingons may have some advantage in that they can sit cloaked and spend time making sure they all have different targets but the bottom line is that it's far too powerful and has no counter, regardless of who uses it.

    It's certainly more powerful than the abilities that Tacticals and Engineers get.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Balance is not likely to ever happen. They can tweak one thing, wich will cause something else to be considered over powerd.

    Feds need to stick together at all times. As a Klingon I can tell you once the fed ball is broken and they start to trickle in one at a time, I lol my butt off. If you die maybe set a place on the map to meet up and re group, somewhere off the beaten path.

    Stick with 100 to shields unitl the battle begins, maybe an eps console to quickly boost your power to weapons or whatever settings you use. RSP is a must, wait to use it unitl youre being focused on by more that 2 people. Hmm what else, photonic officer is something Ive just started using, so far seems to be good.

    Your 1-9 thing. IDK. Having gotten to Captian 2 as a Klingon I can tell you Ive only come across a handfull of Sci officers. A hole team of Sci's will most likely be a fleet, if thats the case youre at a disadvatage in the first place. I also dont see many people cloaking while in battle, if they do 9 times outa 10 they're dead by torps.

    And everyone should be focus firing in the first place. If you or they arent then IDK what youre trying to do.

    And as far as the BoP/ cloak. I have no clue why they made the Boffs, universal. And cloak is something the Klingons have had for ever. I highly doubt its going anywhere.

    Personaly I think you should be able to track a cloaked ship at 10km and in. In many episodes of TNG they tracked cloaked Romulans. So I say if im moving around inside 10km and you have enough power to AUX, then you should be able to track me, maybe not out right see me, but have a general idea of where I am, or at very least see that Im there. That seems pretty canon to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There is a very very simple balance mechanism they can use which is x% of damage to a ships hull breaks whichever CC is on it.

    Its what was done in Age of Conan

    the immunities also need to be placed and be longer...at least 30 seconds of immunity..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    If you have a problem with SNB, go look in the plethora of faction indiscriminate threads dealing with the issue and proposing solutions. Your argument rests on cloak being overpowered indirectly because of first strike control with SNB. This makes it a class balance problem, not a faction one.

    I don't know what made you think arguing in an unrelated IRC is the best medium for distributing your complaints. Wait, I do know. You're wrapped up in a simple discrimination (us/them) complex and it's destroying your ability to make a cogent argument or attempt at discussion. You're really deluding yourself if you think the Klingon cheers won't be just as loud as Federation ones when SNB is fixed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Well sheepishone since you love to flame and flame as much as you can look and reread what I posted.
    Answer the statement, Facts are facts No fed groups use all science vessels at Ad5 level No feds can cloak, no feds have a BOP archtype, I myself said that SNB needs tweeking (read my psot before you try to E-bully others) Buffing wihtout loosing cloaks, DPS output on a ship with unrestrcited assigned BO's the Insane escapability of BOP. I could have sworn I laid out multiple problems here and asked for a "all knowing" klink players as yourself to answer the question. Facts are facts If you do not have one or can even muster the courage to give the correct answer that klinks with honor actually attack then sit back with the protection of the keyboard to shadow the E-bully on the otherside of the game.
    Your suggestion to voice a complaint in one of the hundreds of other threads regarding peoples opinions on the many many various issues I adressed in one single post is simply ignorant, Why would i post in a thread that is filled with drivvle and spite by players like you that hate to see anyone elses point of view other than the one that you see fit to see.
    Sheepish one You are a short sighted ignorant fool (IMO) to not see that the facts and scenario I laid out in the OP are framed in a way to hopefully show that the things that feds are saying out there are valid and not just the "feds are bad at pvp". I am not trying to change the skills nor the factions but rather lay out a situation that happens everyday to hopefully draw attention to the over abuse of skills and ship setups.
    I know its hard for you to see that a BOP being able to VM and SNB and cloak and have the DPs of a escort on fed side is broken. I get that, I also get that you are just another forum troll as I have seen you troll and flame many posts made by many people that do not see the game through your narrow and ignorantly shortsighted eyes.
    answer the question or GTFO, E-bullies like you ruin the games atmosphere where people can start threads and express their opinions freely without watching time and time again stains like you trying to impose a restrictive and censoring environment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    sorry but YOU try to understand, if a bop goes sci and get vm ect then it missis out on all the attak patterns and attack boosting skills so your average fed escort will pump out more dps than it, unless they suck
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    RCF and HYT is all they need when feds can not move or use ANY skills.
    Ide get it if the DPS was way less like a science vessel on average but the BOP doesnt need a large atc buff to output good damage. luit skills will do fine when feds just sit there and take it from 5 BOP's
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You won't beat any team stacking dps and utilizing VM/SNB in an organized fashion, regardless of their faction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    To the OP, did you read my post, Or just the flames? Also to the Op, you must be really unlucky to be going against all BoPs. As a Klingon I see more all Crusier. And the BoP is the weakest ship, shield and hull wise, in the game. Have you ever played as a Klingon for more than 2 tiers? Im guessing you havent, just a wild guess, but please correct me if Im wrong.

    And one other thing that every fed player has to remember when talking about anything Klingon being Over powerd. You have a hole game to play. You can spend hours and hours doing missions, exploring the "galaxy". We Klingons have nebulas and PvP. So Im sorry if anything we can do is over powerd. But honestly how much do you want to take from us???


    Also, to the OP. A few questions to try and see where youre coming from. What ship do you use? What type of officer are you? What are youre Boff layouts. Are you part of a fleet?

    If you tell me you tell me youre a tac officer in an escort. Im sorry but I will have to lol at you. Mainly because an escort is what you want for PvE, but ironicly PvP youre a big target. regardless, simple things like RSP, sci team, high yield torp, a few EM power to shields, a viral matrix of your own, jam sensors not scramble. Are a few things I can think of off the top of my head youll want to use if you can.

    Thier are ways to beat anything. Oh and giving up in a PvP match is a big no no. Ive seen many 14 to 1 comebacks as a Klingon. Im sure feds can do it too..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    In PvP, an attack that totally disables a target for a bit of time isn't the problem. The problem is that when the target suffers under such a state, and can be hit with massive damage and STILL be disabled is a major issue.

    Usually MMOs will have the good 'ol "State Breaks on Damage" to prevent such an issue, and the disable of such magnitutde will not be that long.

    But someway, somehow, Cryptic missed that memo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I would be willing to bet that most of these posts by fed players about teh power of sub/vm are from cruiser users. It is the one thing that will spoil their day. If a dps only bop or a raptor decloak, hell even another cruiser they can spam all their defensive abilities and feel comfortable that as long as the whole kdf armarda doesn't show up and pick them that they will probably survive. Hell even if 3 or more focus on them it will still take a while.

    Some bop turns up with vm and suddenly they realise they are going to get blown up and all that defence spamming is going to fail them and they don't feel immortal at that moment and they don't like it. solo with 80/80 in wpns aux it will often take me two vm's to sit there and burn through the shields and hull. with just one often they can get there powers back just before they go boom and hey presto all the work is undone. If a ship so much as looks at my bop my shields vanish. i have even been vm'd could not believe it tho, what a waste i am going to die if a couple of players shoot at me, the vm was wasted it could have been used on the cruiser that was taking forever.

    Sorry that your fed cruiser has an achillies heel but there it is, as for the whole team being vm'd thing never have i seen that happen, even in premades. It could happen if you had nothing but science filled bops but then upto t5 ( i am only t4) if you carry vm you can only get hy1 and rf1 for dps.

    As i have mentioned in a previous post, vm et al are not OP, what makes it difficult for you is unlike us, you have no idea which, if any, bop is carrying it. When we see a science vessel, there is a good chance it has it and if someone gets vm'd that ship will become a priority. If you get vm'd it could have been from any bop unless you scroll through the combat log to find out
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    akumarev wrote:
    So after being kicked out of the "organizedpvp" channel which is just a klink bar room for crying about feds whether winning or losing I asked this question.

    You were kicked because of your attitude. The same one you display on forums apparently.

    Besides I think there might be more people in the channel than in the whole klingon empire. And you were really starting to annoy both feds and klingons. You kept griping about the same thing over and over again; with no real solution to offer other than make feds and klingons identical.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The day klinks get sci ships who have higher shield benefit and hull and more BO utility and sci console slots, that day feds can have a BoP type universal gimp ship.
    The BoP isnt the mirror of the escort. The raptor is.
    The BoP is a gimped jack of all trades. It can be a sci ship, a tanker or an escort.
    But it excells at none of em compared to true escorts/sci/cruisers.
    Now stop QQ'ing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Koopa27 wrote: »
    We Klingons have nebulas and PvP. So Im sorry if anything we can do is over powerd. But honestly how much do you want to take from us???

    Lack of contents shouldnt be a valid reason mate. As far as I remember; we have accounts; with several chars, we are not stuck with one side or the other. We can all enjoy exactly the same contents. If we want PVE contents; there's the federation side, if we enjoy PvP; well we can play both sides.

    But the main issue you'll encounter when talking with people about PVP. They play a character they like; they do well in PVE; and think it should work well in PvP. PvPers know it's not gonna work that way. Klingons, past tier 2 have quite a lot of PvP experience already being forced to PVP to level.

    The people you'll see complain about the lack of balance; don't really understand the klingon side. They see cloak; they don't have cloak. They think klingons just materialize in another dimension and are not taking damage when cloaking... or maybe they tried to play a klingon; after all at level 6 everyone can make one. And tier 1 is the most stupidly imbalanced part of PvP in this game: 1) characters barely have any skills, 2) klingons start at level 5 with decent gear. 3) the ships have very low shields and structure. Under those conditions; yes klingon ships are really overpowered; because in the few seconds after uncloaking, they already crippled the opponent so seriously that they cant win the battle from the lack of options available: 3 BO skills and nothing before level 8 to balance things out a bit?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    as no feds want to listen to my often repeated advice, i am left to just levelling myown fed and showing them personally what i know to be true. message me in game bro and u can coem to the opvp vent (loosely associated with the chanel) and we can flesh out the problems. if you geninely want to get some organized pvp im sure we can smooth out op diffs. <S>
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Have atleast 2 feds cycling sci team on themselves, this will counter the VM (havn't tested to see if it breaks a sub nuc cooldown, probably doesn't , but should), this way they will be free to do dps/ vm the klings etc etc. (sci team cen be overlapped)

    The situatiuon you describe with 5 sci players i think is a rarity, granted yes premade can be done but then its just a boring 1 trick pony.

    However for this to work the kling team do need perfect timing, good positioning and probably a bit of luck so like everythign in life, its not guaranteed.

    I would say the feds if they have some orgnaisation would probably get owned by this once (score being 5-0 to klings) and then try the sci team tactic once they know they are comig up against 5 Sci klings.

    There is a counter to everything you just have to look hard and start thinking about pre-empting and cycling skills to ensure your safety as a fed.

    Yes this seems like the only counter to this, but since this is only 1 tactic, there is your 1 counter.

    Can i take a bow? do i get a cookie? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I just got my new fed SCI officer up to RA. I leveled up from Lcom to RA in a premade PVP group. With proper group setup and constant communication, the feds have the upperhand. RSP negates any advantage that klingons have. Once out of cloak, the klingons are at a major disadvantage vs a proper fedball. People are crying for a Klingon nerf, but I really feel that it is the feds that are slightly overpowered. Most feds in an unorganized group are going to get annihilated. It's when teamwork and cross healing/curing comes into play that the feds really jump ahead of the klingons.

    I can count the numbers of times our premade lost a game on 2 hands from the hundreds we played to level up. Granted, we're using voice communication and overpowered 3x cru 2x sci combos.

    The only issue we ran into was against a premade klingon science team. The full AUX SNB alphastrike on multiple targets is really devastating. We found no counter to this at all.

    However, facing a team like this occurred so rarely that it really isn't an issue overall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    So my OP was an attempt to draw out the bovious, I am not calling out for a nerf to klinks.
    \So to everyone that may think this is an attempt to call for the nerf bat it is not
    I will clarify for all
    Fact is the situation i laid out is NOT possible for feds to do VS klinks since feds can not cloak and MES does not work.
    There is a few options feds can do to try and hope that they can survive VS the alpha striek but I have to laugh so hard at these option, the "cycle science team" doesnt stop subnuc from preventing that ship from being crippled from helping teammates, which are all SNB and VM-ed to death.
    The Pray you time the use of an ability like FBP and the klinks do not notice it is on or the do not simply focus fire on a different target instead.
    The situation is a No win for feds, they can do Nothing to stop this scenario from happening.
    I realize that some klinks still do not want to see the balance arguement feds are asking for, and I agree feds need some balance as well but the point of this topic was after getting booted out of the bullsh@t organized pvp channel for asking about pvp situations and getting personally attacled first by diehard victim klink players I took the situation that those very same klinks did not wanty to look at and show them the point of my question.
    Flames aside I do not feel it bountiful to chime in on one of the hundreds of others threads all giving their opinions on what to do with the game since truely after my years of EXP I have learned that devs will do what they want despite what the community recommends (SWG NGE - WOW 1.3.2, LOTRO MOM expac - and many other expamples.). So I took the chance to hopefully draw attention of the players to the fact that klinks have the real "I WIN" button that they say feds cry for. I am not saying that all klinks do it but I have fought against it enough to say it is in serious need of fixing before enough feds see it and say to hell with this.
    Love me or hate me for my posts but the facts are simple feds have strategies like fedball heavy cruiser teams ect...but they do not have an "I WIN" button and klinks do (with some other shield cloaking exploits I am seeing abused more and more now).
    The differences between feds and klinks with shields and hull and BO spots VS the racial abilities of klinks like cloak, and BOP and carriers is the spice of the game, giving one side a very easy and obtainable "I WIN" button like i posted in my OP 1-9 steps is there, it is used and when more klink players focus on the obvious and see ok balance is needed then hopefully more real PVP can happen.
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