Okay this one I'm going to start pretty general. I'm going to vent a problem I see with PVP in pretty much every mmo and then I'll get to specific STO pvp areas that need improvement.
The biggest problem with MMO PVP is the CCs. I don't have a problem with roots or slows per se, but essentially any power that all but unplugs my keyboard is not fun. It is not a test of your skill vs mine, it's me sitting there helpless while you pound on me. It's not fun. And every single MMO does this. It's no surprise that those classes/skills tend to dominate the pvp arena to the point that you're either playing a super cc character or you've had to make your build specifically to counter cc. Players who don't want to play this way quickly get frustrated and move on and a huge divide between the PVE crowd and the PVP crowd develops. Now, I can already hear those of you who love your CC. "Learn to Play" is usually your first line of defense by which you mean "learn to play my way". Since the CC powers are usually so OP there is usually little other viable option. "If you don't like it don't play" is the general follow up. I don't like it, but I'd like to play. I'd like to measure your skill against mine, your build against mine. But my build isn't really the build I want it to be, it's the build you force me to make to counter all of the skills you have that make me helpless. One wonders about the mentality of someone who only likes to fight someone who can't fight back, but that's a discussion for another time. In short MMO devs around the world stop with the holds. As I said I don't really have a problem with slows, or roots or similar powers, it's the powers that for all intents and purposes unplug your keyboard that need to be put away forever.
Now on to STO specific issues, no surprise many are related to the above. First let's talk about VM. Allowing your various "teams" to still function is a step in the right direction, but (and really this goes for all holds in the game) many times you get chain VMd. The countdowns both actual and global are too long too counter this even if you have multiple science teams. Perhaps an immunity could be added after the first one hits or science teams could give you an immunity to prevent the chaining. Related to this is the fact that all of the hold powers are instant auto hit powers with no resistances whatsoever. How about a miss chance like other weapons. How about a little natural immunity or consoles that add resistances to CCs. If I have a straight DPS build I have a miss chance, if you have a straight CC build you don't. The other issue I have with vm is it's duration. It lasts so long that you are all but required to have science teams in your build if you want to pvp. And it's duration makes it almost impossible to not be instantly re hit with it when it wears off.
Feedback pulse needs some tweaking. Here's the deal. Turning my weapon power against me is clever. It's somewhat unique, and I like the general idea. However; when it can do more damage than the weapon that initiated the feedback that's going too far. Also, could we have it go against shields rather than hull? I was in a match the other day in an assault cruiser and within a few shots against a bird of prey my hull was in single digit territory. If my shields could have taken some of that for me that would have been better. When we also consider that it's useless against cannons it becomes clear that it's all but useless against Klingons. So what we have with feedback pulse is a massive damage weapon that provides a significant advantage for one side over the other that can also hit multiple targets without diminishing dps. I have heard people brag that with the right consoles/power settings/skills you can get over 2k damage per pulse. Directly to someone's hull without a chance to miss or defend against it. It sort of goes back to the problem with VM where my only defense is to not shoot the person shooting me. Since the cool-downs and durations make it possible for some players to have an almost constant feedback pulse going those players are untouchable to anyone not flying an escort.
Klingons do a lot more damage than feds. That's as it should be. But balance demands that maybe they have a lesser ability to soak up damage on par with their ability to dish it out. They do more damage, they are far more maneuverable, they can use cannons on pretty much every ship, feedback pulse is one sided and they can take every bit as much fire as a fed ship. Something has got to give here. There is no way any objective source can consider this balanced, and that's before we even get into the carriers. A single carrier is a doable encounter for a fed ship. But multiple carriers increase the difficulty exponentially. If I face a Bird of Prey and his friend shows up I'm now facing two ships. If I face a carrier and his friend shows up I'm facing upwards of 20 ships. The targeting system doesn't do any favors here either. Meaning I have to cycle through a very long list of targets, or get lucky enough to click on the carrier in the swarm.
Ground based PVP has all the above issues +1. My biggest gripe with ground game-play is that the controls get all crazy when you crouch. There's no reason for this. I hate hitting backwards and going left, or trying to move forward and end up going backward. Controls shouldn't significantly change just because I want to pick up a little more dps and defense by crouching. Don't get me wrong I still don't like all the various holds, and maybe the expose exploit mechanic (which I actually really like) could use some tweaking in pvp (namely that certain classes/kits/skills guarantee an expose) but by far the biggest problem is ground controls.
So there you have it my laundry list of things that need tweaking STO's pvp. For the record I play both fed and Klingon. I am loving the PVE game, and still enjoy PVP. Not threatening to quit (the game or PVP) just voicing my concerns. Feedback is welcome.
Just as you say it is natural for Klingon ships to do more damage, I think it is perfectly natural for Federation ships to have more and better science abilities. That's just the way it is. A Klingon warrior does not tinker with deflector dishes (edit: and in fact, Klingon ships do not even have deflector dishes). All this complaining about Viral Matrix and Feedback Pulse and other science abilities seems a little lacking in perspective, considering how absurdly unbalanced the PVP currently is, on the whole, in favor of the Klingon side.
Just as you say it is natural for Klingon ships to do more damage, I think it is perfectly natural for Federation ships to have more and better science abilities. That's just the way it is. A Klingon warrior does not tinker with deflector dishes (edit: and in fact, Klingon ships do not even have deflector dishes). All this complaining about Viral Matrix and Feedback Pulse and other science abilities seems a little lacking in perspective, considering how absurdly unbalanced the PVP currently is, on the whole, in favor of the Klingon side.
Sure, and I think I address some of the causes for that here. It's one thing to just say pvp is "absurdly unbalanced" but with out reasons or potential fixes the statement means nothing.
Okay this one I'm going to start pretty general. I'm going to vent a problem I see with PVP in pretty much every mmo and then I'll get to specific STO pvp areas that need improvement.
The biggest problem with MMO PVP is the CCs. I don't have a problem with roots or slows per se, but essentially any power that all but unplugs my keyboard is not fun. It is not a test of your skill vs mine, it's me sitting there helpless while you pound on me. It's not fun. And every single MMO does this. It's no surprise that those classes/skills tend to dominate the pvp arena to the point that you're either playing a super cc character or you've had to make your build specifically to counter cc. Players who don't want to play this way quickly get frustrated and move on and a huge divide between the PVE crowd and the PVP crowd develops. Now, I can already hear those of you who love your CC. "Learn to Play" is usually your first line of defense by which you mean "learn to play my way". Since the CC powers are usually so OP there is usually little other viable option. "If you don't like it don't play" is the general follow up. I don't like it, but I'd like to play. I'd like to measure your skill against mine, your build against mine. But my build isn't really the build I want it to be, it's the build you force me to make to counter all of the skills you have that make me helpless. One wonders about the mentality of someone who only likes to fight someone who can't fight back, but that's a discussion for another time. In short MMO devs around the world stop with the holds. As I said I don't really have a problem with slows, or roots or similar powers, it's the powers that for all intents and purposes unplug your keyboard that need to be put away forever.
Now on to STO specific issues, no surprise many are related to the above. First let's talk about VM. Allowing your various "teams" to still function is a step in the right direction, but (and really this goes for all holds in the game) many times you get chain VMd. The countdowns both actual and global are too long too counter this even if you have multiple science teams. Perhaps an immunity could be added after the first one hits or science teams could give you an immunity to prevent the chaining. Related to this is the fact that all of the hold powers are instant auto hit powers with no resistances whatsoever. How about a miss chance like other weapons. How about a little natural immunity or consoles that add resistances to CCs. If I have a straight DPS build I have a miss chance, if you have a straight CC build you don't. The other issue I have with vm is it's duration. It lasts so long that you are all but required to have science teams in your build if you want to pvp. And it's duration makes it almost impossible to not be instantly re hit with it when it wears off.
Feedback pulse needs some tweaking. Here's the deal. Turning my weapon power against me is clever. It's somewhat unique, and I like the general idea. However; when it can do more damage than the weapon that initiated the feedback that's going too far. Also, could we have it go against shields rather than hull? I was in a match the other day in an assault cruiser and within a few shots against a bird of prey my hull was in single digit territory. If my shields could have taken some of that for me that would have been better. When we also consider that it's useless against cannons it becomes clear that it's all but useless against Klingons. So what we have with feedback pulse is a massive damage weapon that provides a significant advantage for one side over the other that can also hit multiple targets without diminishing dps. I have heard people brag that with the right consoles/power settings/skills you can get over 2k damage per pulse. Directly to someone's hull without a chance to miss or defend against it. It sort of goes back to the problem with VM where my only defense is to not shoot the person shooting me. Since the cool-downs and durations make it possible for some players to have an almost constant feedback pulse going those players are untouchable to anyone not flying an escort.
Klingons do a lot more damage than feds. That's as it should be. But balance demands that maybe they have a lesser ability to soak up damage on par with their ability to dish it out. They do more damage, they are far more maneuverable, they can use cannons on pretty much every ship, feedback pulse is one sided and they can take every bit as much fire as a fed ship. Something has got to give here. There is no way any objective source can consider this balanced, and that's before we even get into the carriers. A single carrier is a doable encounter for a fed ship. But multiple carriers increase the difficulty exponentially. If I face a Bird of Prey and his friend shows up I'm now facing two ships. If I face a carrier and his friend shows up I'm facing upwards of 20 ships. The targeting system doesn't do any favors here either. Meaning I have to cycle through a very long list of targets, or get lucky enough to click on the carrier in the swarm.
Ground based PVP has all the above issues +1. My biggest gripe with ground game-play is that the controls get all crazy when you crouch. There's no reason for this. I hate hitting backwards and going left, or trying to move forward and end up going backward. Controls shouldn't significantly change just because I want to pick up a little more dps and defense by crouching. Don't get me wrong I still don't like all the various holds, and maybe the expose exploit mechanic (which I actually really like) could use some tweaking in pvp (namely that certain classes/kits/skills guarantee an expose) but by far the biggest problem is ground controls.
So there you have it my laundry list of things that need tweaking STO's pvp. For the record I play both fed and Klingon. I am loving the PVE game, and still enjoy PVP. Not threatening to quit (the game or PVP) just voicing my concerns. Feedback is welcome.
You will really hate the ultimate I win combo then which is SNB followed by VM. An all science premade picking separate targets, using SNB followed by VM and a weapon battery disables and kills the entire opposing team everythime.
You will really hate the ultimate I win combo then which is SNB followed by VM. An all science premade picking separate targets, using SNB followed by VM and a weapon battery disables and kills the entire opposing team everythime.
For sure. Still falls under the "unplugs your keyboard" classification.
For sure. Still falls under the "unplugs your keyboard" classification.
I absolutely agree with you, and I am a science officer calling for that nerf on myself. Since this is soo effective, I cannot use it without feeling cheesy.
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Klingons have access to the same Alternative ways the feds are supposed to use on TOP of their enhanced damage?
And please do not tell me we have more hull etc, I just moved to galaxy Class a couple of days ago and while I am still on all mk VI gear I was expecting that an enemy (NPC mind you) would not do one shot 35% off my hull...still..I can only immagine how it will be in the PvP if the PVE is like that...
At least in PVE it manageable, I can use my BO abilities tweak power etc, in PvP you do not have that luxury, it is often over within 30 seconds, that alone shows that there are caveats somewhere.
And I agree with the CC being a turn down in many games as of late. It has been since DAoC that people have been asking No MEZ! Seems like someone thinks that Pure Damage and Tactics Maneuvering plus Power management and Defensive abilities is not enough, but the truth is people would like to have more protracted combat. At least I know I and my Fleet mates and Friends would. (so I am extending that to include "the people" based on observation of a sample audience).
I still laugh when I see Klingons playing Stationary Turrets Shooting eevrything on sight. They have the maneuverability but they do not need to use it because there is simply no incentive to do so.
beams consume more power than cannons yet beams do less damage, And while 2/3 of the feds are invited to use broadside tactics then we take away their capacity to at least do sustained low DPS damage and we give the High DPS weapons the capacity to sustain it plus the maneuverability...something does not sound good in that mechanic no?
Wouldn't it be better if cannons consumed more power as to incite the more maneuverable ships to actually maneuver and come for another pass with full frontal assault having recharged weapons energy? While the fed cruisers forming a screen of sustained Low DPS beam broadsides, the escorts can navigate around for another pass at the enemy? And reduce the CC abilities?
Add some dynamic here that is balanced? maybe it would make the game more Fun ?
We move when we need too. when you sit still there is no need to move as we pile our cannons into your shields until they are down and then the torps are unleashed. Why move when you sit in our gun arcs.
When you change Tiers you are going to get owned in pvp for a while I don't care what gear you have. PVE is PVE and is not relevant.
You people do realize that when KDF gets owned and it happens we don't run to the forums and demand change and nerfs.
The biggest issue with FED PVP is the complete lack of teamwork. KDF pugs are uncanny at teaming up and focus firing and never speaking a word in chat. We know our ships we know what we can and can't do and we pvp all the time.
The biggest reason you lose so much is that the spawn are messed up. The team that usually takes out the first ship will wipe the other side. KDF will reconstitute and attack while most Fed groups continue to stream back in get picked off.
Target selection is also an issue. The Feds see the big carrier or cruisers and run off after it while leaving the Damage dealer BOPS alone to quickly eliminate the Fed escorts.
Sure there probably needs to be some tweaking of skills but that will impact both sides equally.
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Klingons have access to the same Alternative ways the feds are supposed to use on TOP of their enhanced damage?
And please do not tell me we have more hull etc, I just moved to galaxy Class a couple of days ago and while I am still on all mk VI gear I was expecting that an enemy (NPC mind you) would not do one shot 35% off my hull...still..I can only immagine how it will be in the PvP if the PVE is like that...
At least in PVE it manageable, I can use my BO abilities tweak power etc, in PvP you do not have that luxury, it is often over within 30 seconds, that alone shows that there are caveats somewhere.
And I agree with the CC being a turn down in many games as of late. It has been since DAoC that people have been asking No MEZ! Seems like someone thinks that Pure Damage and Tactics Maneuvering plus Power management and Defensive abilities is not enough, but the truth is people would like to have more protracted combat. At least I know I and my Fleet mates and Friends would. (so I am extending that to include "the people" based on observation of a sample audience).
I still laugh when I see Klingons playing Stationary Turrets Shooting eevrything on sight. They have the maneuverability but they do not need to use it because there is simply no incentive to do so.
beams consume more power than cannons yet beams do less damage, And while 2/3 of the feds are invited to use broadside tactics then we take away their capacity to at least do sustained low DPS damage and we give the High DPS weapons the capacity to sustain it plus the maneuverability...something does not sound good in that mechanic no?
Wouldn't it be better if cannons consumed more power as to incite the more maneuverable ships to actually maneuver and come for another pass with full frontal assault having recharged weapons energy? While the fed cruisers forming a screen of sustained Low DPS beam broadsides, the escorts can navigate around for another pass at the enemy? And reduce the CC abilities?
Add some dynamic here that is balanced? maybe it would make the game more Fun ?
Beams do more damage than cannons at longer ranges...its important to keep a cannon user at longer ranges for more time to limit their damage to you...
I see plenty of people I play on both sides that have little to no issue with the amounts of CC in the game and we engage in some wonderous swirling dogfights that only end when one of us makes a mistake.
We move when we need too. when you sit still there is no need to move as we pile our cannons into your shields until they are down and then the torps are unleashed. Why move when you sit in our gun arcs.
When you change Tiers you are going to get owned in pvp for a while I don't care what gear you have. PVE is PVE and is not relevant.
You people do realize that when KDF gets owned and it happens we don't run to the forums and demand change and nerfs.
The biggest issue with FED PVP is the complete lack of teamwork. KDF pugs are uncanny at teaming up and focus firing and never speaking a word in chat. We know our ships we know what we can and can't do and we pvp all the time.
The biggest reason you lose so much is that the spawn are messed up. The team that usually takes out the first ship will wipe the other side. KDF will reconstitute and attack while most Fed groups continue to stream back in get picked off.
Target selection is also an issue. The Feds see the big carrier or cruisers and run off after it while leaving the Damage dealer BOPS alone to quickly eliminate the Fed escorts.
Sure there probably needs to be some tweaking of skills but that will impact both sides equally.
There still remains only one skill that needs adjustment its SNB...and all it needs is the ability to be removed by engineering team, sci team, tac team and attack pattern omega...:cool:
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Klingons have access to the same Alternative ways the feds are supposed to use on TOP of their enhanced damage?
And please do not tell me we have more hull etc, I just moved to galaxy Class a couple of days ago and while I am still on all mk VI gear I was expecting that an enemy (NPC mind you) would not do one shot 35% off my hull...still..I can only immagine how it will be in the PvP if the PVE is like that...
At least in PVE it manageable, I can use my BO abilities tweak power etc, in PvP you do not have that luxury, it is often over within 30 seconds, that alone shows that there are caveats somewhere.
And I agree with the CC being a turn down in many games as of late. It has been since DAoC that people have been asking No MEZ! Seems like someone thinks that Pure Damage and Tactics Maneuvering plus Power management and Defensive abilities is not enough, but the truth is people would like to have more protracted combat. At least I know I and my Fleet mates and Friends would. (so I am extending that to include "the people" based on observation of a sample audience).
I still laugh when I see Klingons playing Stationary Turrets Shooting eevrything on sight. They have the maneuverability but they do not need to use it because there is simply no incentive to do so.
beams consume more power than cannons yet beams do less damage, And while 2/3 of the feds are invited to use broadside tactics then we take away their capacity to at least do sustained low DPS damage and we give the High DPS weapons the capacity to sustain it plus the maneuverability...something does not sound good in that mechanic no?
Wouldn't it be better if cannons consumed more power as to incite the more maneuverable ships to actually maneuver and come for another pass with full frontal assault having recharged weapons energy? While the fed cruisers forming a screen of sustained Low DPS beam broadsides, the escorts can navigate around for another pass at the enemy? And reduce the CC abilities?
Add some dynamic here that is balanced? maybe it would make the game more Fun ?
I guess they figure that the dps of cannons falls off faster than the DPS of beams at range is the balance.
We move when we need too. when you sit still there is no need to move as we pile our cannons into your shields until they are down and then the torps are unleashed. Why move when you sit in our gun arcs.
When you change Tiers you are going to get owned in pvp for a while I don't care what gear you have. PVE is PVE and is not relevant.
You people do realize that when KDF gets owned and it happens we don't run to the forums and demand change and nerfs.
The biggest issue with FED PVP is the complete lack of teamwork. KDF pugs are uncanny at teaming up and focus firing and never speaking a word in chat. We know our ships we know what we can and can't do and we pvp all the time.
The biggest reason you lose so much is that the spawn are messed up. The team that usually takes out the first ship will wipe the other side. KDF will reconstitute and attack while most Fed groups continue to stream back in get picked off.
Target selection is also an issue. The Feds see the big carrier or cruisers and run off after it while leaving the Damage dealer BOPS alone to quickly eliminate the Fed escorts.
Sure there probably needs to be some tweaking of skills but that will impact both sides equally.
Yet how many times do we hear Klingons say "fed ball" so they do complain about feds when they do group up. One tactic I'm getting sick of seeing lately is a bird of prey burying it's nose in my side and plugging away. Cruisers just do not accelerate or turn fast enough to counter this. Sure we can broadside, but as has been pointed out our power levels fall off faster than the Klingon doing higher dps with his cannons and roughly equivalent shields. Still, not something I want to see nerfed or even enhance the turning rate of cruisers over. I know several ways out of it.
You do bring up an interesting point though, and I think it stems from the fact that Klingons have no other choice but pvp. For the feds it's something they do as a lark, something to fill the time. While I'm sure there are dedicated fed pvp players it's just significantly faster fed side to level up doing pve. Klingons do level slower so they spend more time getting to know their ships, they also spend more time pvping so they learn to team and whatnot. At tier 5 you'll find several feds who this is their first pvp match. That's not an issue with Klingons. None of this though is the point of the thread. I'm okay with losing to bad tactics(my side), a superior team(the other side) or better overall skill. What I'm not okay with is the "I win button"
Beams do more damage than cannons at longer ranges...its important to keep a cannon user at longer ranges for more time to limit their damage to you...
I see plenty of people I play on both sides that have little to no issue with the amounts of CC in the game and we engage in some wonderous swirling dogfights that only end when one of us makes a mistake.
:cool:
Fabulous if you're in an escort. No "swirling dogfights" in cruisers. Also, escorts(BoPs) have access to an anti CC skill that no one else does. And since, in general, cannon users are faster than beam users it's harder than you imply to keep them at longer ranges.
Fabulous if you're in an escort. No "swirling dogfights" in cruisers. Also, escorts(BoPs) have access to an anti CC skill that no one else does. And since, in general, cannon users are faster than beam users it's harder than you imply to keep them at longer ranges.
Solution is a rear mounted plasma torpedo overloaded ...
solution two is repulse tractor beam..
solution three is a tractor beam
solution 4 is emergency power to engines to jet away and keep the range up..
Fabulous if you're in an escort. No "swirling dogfights" in cruisers. Also, escorts(BoPs) have access to an anti CC skill that no one else does. And since, in general, cannon users are faster than beam users it's harder than you imply to keep them at longer ranges.
Sorry what? All cruisers have at least a sci stattion going to two dots...which is at least sci team I and sci team II...
So no...and attack pattern omega is available to all the federation escorts as well...so that is hardly no one....
Solution is a rear mounted plasma torpedo overloaded ...
solution two is repulse tractor beam..
solution three is a tractor beam
solution 4 is emergency power to engines to jet away and keep the range up..
Solution 1. Is easily worked around by the slow moving torpedo. Someone with cannons/turrets can easily shoot down that torpedo before it hits them.
Solution 2. Works only for a few seconds and the speedy escort is back on you in no time. Also in the next post you mention I have 2 science slots repulsiors would remove science team II since it's not available as an ensign level BO skill, so if I take this solution it prevents me from a solution for CCs. And I'd rather deal with an escort at range than CCs
Soltuion 3. Doesn't work at less than 5km so were still at pretty close range.
Solution 4. Works unless and escort just switches to the their speed power setting or pops evasive.
Sorry what? All cruisers have at least a sci stattion going to two dots...which is at least sci team I and sci team II...
So no...and attack pattern omega is available to all the federation escorts as well...so that is hardly no one....
So I have to use one or both of my science slots to counter something that's OP instead of using those powers to improve my performance. So we all play your way or not at all? I hope you're not one of those people complaining about the lack of variety in the game because your strategy seems to be cookie cuter builds.
And I didn't specify Klingon or feds here. Yes ALL escorts can take that power. But science ships, Cruisers, carriers and what not cannot. Hence it's a workaround that only escorts can use.
Solution 1. Is easily worked around by the slow moving torpedo. Someone with cannons/turrets can easily shoot down that torpedo before it hits them.
---And that makes a difference if they are nose in on you at less than 1km how????
Solution 2. Works only for a few seconds and the speedy escort is back on you in no time. Also in the next post you mention I have 2 science slots repulsiors would remove science team II since it's not available as an ensign level BO skill, so if I take this solution it prevents me from a solution for CCs. And I'd rather deal with an escort at range than CCs
----woot you made a choice to be anti CC instead of fighting at range..aren't choices great?
Soltuion 3. Doesn't work at less than 5km so were still at pretty close range.
---but used at a proper moment traps him in your 90 in front of you to optimize your firepower on him..
Solution 4. Works unless and escort just switches to the their speed power setting or pops evasive.
---at which point he should be reaching you somewhat drained of weapons power...hopefully you've bought yourself the time you need to heal, and or HYT him when he gets there...
And yes point 1 is made better by auto target going away....
So I have to use one or both of my science slots to counter something that's OP instead of using those powers to improve my performance. So we all play your way or not at all? I hope you're not one of those people complaining about the lack of variety in the game because your strategy seems to be cookie cuter builds.
And I didn't specify Klingon or feds here. Yes ALL escorts can take that power. But science ships, Cruisers, carriers and what not cannot. Hence it's a workaround that only escorts can use.
I have in all likely hood used more builds than 75% of the people here...preferring the BoP and universal slots since it was available in CB...
It helps me tailor my play style around how I feel like playing at any given engagement..
So I have no problem with the 'lack of variety' as my ship is a cornucopia of variety. Though I do see the problem in normal ships with static station assignments.
I have in all likely hood used more builds than 75% of the people here...preferring the BoP and universal slots since it was available in CB...
It helps me tailor my play style around how I feel like playing at any given engagement..
So I have no problem with the 'lack of variety' as my ship is a cornucopia of variety. Though I do see the problem in normal ships with static station assignments.
Then at least we have some common ground we can work from.
Some good points made by some, some not so good one made by others. I do not wish to start quoting people here in this reply.
Yet, please put the Player factor out of the Equation here. Just because many Federation players do not PvP or do so sparingly does not mean that there aren't mechanical issues with the game.
I am not talking about player Skill here, I am talking about Game mechanics, player skill is another issue all together that should not be used to deflect or misdirect comments made on the actual mechanics.
I do reckon that someone with more experience of the game is in a better position to make comments on the game mechanics than someone with no experience of the game, yet I think by Tier IV people have enough experience with the mechanics of the game to be able to make comments based on their execution and how these play out in various situations in PvP or PvE.
I understand this is controversial, and I have a hunch Cryptic would like to let us players decide in the end through the Test Server before acting upon some of the concerns here.
And remember, you play the game the game does not play you, whatever changes people will always adapt and take advantage of opportunities, the whole "balance" issue is to insure that the mechanics of the game have it, it has not much to do with people's knowledge of the game.
And example here:
There are some things that simply are not playing out as intended. Like for instance, Disruptors, All feds can use them too if they wanted, true, but in reality most feds would not use them because disruptors are not associated with Federation Ships in Star Trek...but if Disruptors are Overpowered...then you cannot argue against calls for balance by saying "use Disruptors"..you are alienating the perception of Star Trek to your audiance, and some people will simply say, "this game does not have the Star Trek feel", because in their perception Federation ships do not use disruptors, never have had in any series or movies.
If Disruptor are overpowered then Disruptors need to be balanced. End of story.
I do not believe the klingons have a dps advantage over the feds ship class by ship class, if a cruiser stacks high dps cannons with a 45 deg arc he might have an initial burst but that damage will tail off very quickly once the mark moves and as they cannot recloak once combat starts their contibution beyond the inital assault will be very limited.
Bops do not have a dps advantage numbers wise over escorts, and given auto targeting/firing of wpns even with cloak comming out of cloak a bop can find itself under fire before it fires back, so there is not really an element of surprise. If the bop comes out behind you while your focused on another target, well the cloack probably wouldn't have made much odds as once players have aquired a target very few seem willing to let go. A bop uncloaking behind a lone escort is one of only two situations where someone gets 'jumped' by a cloaked ship. the second being that lone player that finds itself in the middle of a swarm.
The true imbalance, if that is what your looking to show, is not even with the skills of subnuc / vm. It is not such a big issue for klingons, why, because we know who is going to have it and can focus on them first, if we want to win. I have been sub'd half a dozen times and vm's less and i am now half way through captain. The imbalance comes from the fact a bop looks like a bop looks like a bop. You might know one of them vm'd you but it is not always easy to discover who. this results in less focus being applied to klingon science pilots which gives them greater freedom to use those skills tactically as opposed to using them mearly to survive an assault by players determined to see you dead. you don't always get time to click and examine info during a fight to scout them out. This and tbh only this is why these powers seem OP to some players.
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Klingons have access to the same Alternative ways the feds are supposed to use on TOP of their enhanced damage?
Let me help you here,
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Feds have access to the same damage output Klingons get?
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Feds have access to the same damage output Klingons get?
You mean...Feds using Disruptors? That is not an obvious choice for many...specially fans of Star Trek...this is not WoW...there is history behind Star Trek, there have been years of Series and Movies, Conventions Technical manuals, tabletop games, databases...a lore that has been established.
Federation Ships do not use Disruptors or "green beams" if you will...so...yes, the choice is open in the game but at the cost of destroying the immersion of the setting.
yeas of associating certain gear to certain Factions, this was the first thing that poped in my eyes when I first played this Game...creating a continuation of Trek with a new story line new Dynamics that is fine...trying to change the roots of Trek...that is not fine.
But we are now at war so people that think out of the box might want to do something different like running disruptors.
If each side ran the same setup it would be easy to build a resist setup.
Do you what you feel best. If you want to keep with the lore and RP and not use something, great, but understand that you may well be putting yourself at a disadvantage.
But we are now at war so people that think out of the box might want to do something different like running disruptors.
If each side ran the same setup it would be easy to build a resist setup.
Do you what you feel best. If you want to keep with the lore and RP and not use something, great, but understand that you may well be putting yourself at a disadvantage.
Oh I understand, but that is where the issue stems from, why should the player be conflicted about this?
And this is not only about RP..this is about established parameters that define the Star Trek Universe...if you alter these to many people the game won't "Feel Star Trek".
Every side has its established technologies, maybe the Devs chose to do this the way they did due to time and resource constraints but reactions to this should have been expected...I only hope that post launch Development will slowly address these important details.
Be creative, invent some funky Suffix for Phaser X, where X gets replaced, and Disruptor X, have some nice graphix Effects but base them on the appropriate technology as per the Lore of the setting you are trying to recreate.
Learning from enemies and adapting technologies from enemies to improve one's own is fine, there could be a "Tertyonic Phaser" Model for instance that would do extra Damage to shields compared with the "Standard Phasers" which do Subsystem Interruption.
And these Tetryonic Phasers, could have a different graphic FX when they fire like a standard orangy Phaser beam with a swirl of bluish energy around it, as to be a bit distinct compared to a Standard Phaser.
It does not even have to be the same for all factions, or it could be a set of special effects per faction, to add some flavor to it.
And like that in the eyes of many this would have been an innovating way of presenting various different effects and still be within the realm of "canon" since these are Phasers, the weapons associated with the federation.
Just giving some examples...that could be in due time... (and in my opinion should have been).
If each side ran the same setup it would be easy to build a resist setup.
Not if there was no resistances...I mean, all you need really is Kinetic and Energy plus a set of effects...you do not need to complicate things for specific types of weapons resistances etc etc etc...it is redundant it is not adding anything to my game play...it may even become a hassle if it occupies an important role in the gameplay too.
Of course, I am not a Min maxer, my fun does not come from searching various gear and creating the ultimate build...my fun comes from divising tactics in combat...in the field...move and counter move.
I do not try to stack the game's dice rolls to my advantage and then throw my ship in to combat...I roll the dice while in combat...so farming for items and gear without end trying to maximise DPS, maximise mitigation etc...is not me...and it is not fun to me either to do that, and nor do I think this should be the focus of a game revolving around Star Trek.
Then again, I am not reward Driven when it comes to games, I do what I do for the fun of the experience and the Adventure, not for the final reward.
As a final note, you do not know how grateful I am that STO has a Tactical Combat model, I love it because of that. I have followed it since the begining (actually even before its beginning when perpetual was supposed to be making it)...and always hoped that it would not end up having a combat model like EVE that is very Strategic as opposed to Tactical and success in combat is determined before the engagement rather than during the engagement.
In that regard, i feel the Devs hit the nail on the head, and it perfectly matches Star trek, that is when I decided that I will be playing this game for a long time to come.
You mean...Feds using Disruptors? That is not an obvious choice for many...specially fans of Star Trek...this is not WoW...there is history behind Star Trek, there have been years of Series and Movies, Conventions Technical manuals, tabletop games, databases...a lore that has been established.
Federation Ships do not use Disruptors or "green beams" if you will...so...yes, the choice is open in the game but at the cost of destroying the immersion of the setting.
yeas of associating certain gear to certain Factions, this was the first thing that poped in my eyes when I first played this Game...creating a continuation of Trek with a new story line new Dynamics that is fine...trying to change the roots of Trek...that is not fine.
Nope.Read you'r original post,it's one sided.You say basically klings should be damage and feds alternate so why do klings have access to the same skills feds do.
I simply wrote it the other way arround, why do feds have access to damage klingons do.
Comments
The devs would be wize to look into these matters and deal with them accordingly.
Sure, and I think I address some of the causes for that here. It's one thing to just say pvp is "absurdly unbalanced" but with out reasons or potential fixes the statement means nothing.
You will really hate the ultimate I win combo then which is SNB followed by VM. An all science premade picking separate targets, using SNB followed by VM and a weapon battery disables and kills the entire opposing team everythime.
For sure. Still falls under the "unplugs your keyboard" classification.
I absolutely agree with you, and I am a science officer calling for that nerf on myself. Since this is soo effective, I cannot use it without feeling cheesy.
And please do not tell me we have more hull etc, I just moved to galaxy Class a couple of days ago and while I am still on all mk VI gear I was expecting that an enemy (NPC mind you) would not do one shot 35% off my hull...still..I can only immagine how it will be in the PvP if the PVE is like that...
At least in PVE it manageable, I can use my BO abilities tweak power etc, in PvP you do not have that luxury, it is often over within 30 seconds, that alone shows that there are caveats somewhere.
And I agree with the CC being a turn down in many games as of late. It has been since DAoC that people have been asking No MEZ! Seems like someone thinks that Pure Damage and Tactics Maneuvering plus Power management and Defensive abilities is not enough, but the truth is people would like to have more protracted combat. At least I know I and my Fleet mates and Friends would. (so I am extending that to include "the people" based on observation of a sample audience).
I still laugh when I see Klingons playing Stationary Turrets Shooting eevrything on sight. They have the maneuverability but they do not need to use it because there is simply no incentive to do so.
beams consume more power than cannons yet beams do less damage, And while 2/3 of the feds are invited to use broadside tactics then we take away their capacity to at least do sustained low DPS damage and we give the High DPS weapons the capacity to sustain it plus the maneuverability...something does not sound good in that mechanic no?
Wouldn't it be better if cannons consumed more power as to incite the more maneuverable ships to actually maneuver and come for another pass with full frontal assault having recharged weapons energy? While the fed cruisers forming a screen of sustained Low DPS beam broadsides, the escorts can navigate around for another pass at the enemy? And reduce the CC abilities?
Add some dynamic here that is balanced? maybe it would make the game more Fun ?
When you change Tiers you are going to get owned in pvp for a while I don't care what gear you have. PVE is PVE and is not relevant.
You people do realize that when KDF gets owned and it happens we don't run to the forums and demand change and nerfs.
The biggest issue with FED PVP is the complete lack of teamwork. KDF pugs are uncanny at teaming up and focus firing and never speaking a word in chat. We know our ships we know what we can and can't do and we pvp all the time.
The biggest reason you lose so much is that the spawn are messed up. The team that usually takes out the first ship will wipe the other side. KDF will reconstitute and attack while most Fed groups continue to stream back in get picked off.
Target selection is also an issue. The Feds see the big carrier or cruisers and run off after it while leaving the Damage dealer BOPS alone to quickly eliminate the Fed escorts.
Sure there probably needs to be some tweaking of skills but that will impact both sides equally.
Beams do more damage than cannons at longer ranges...its important to keep a cannon user at longer ranges for more time to limit their damage to you...
I see plenty of people I play on both sides that have little to no issue with the amounts of CC in the game and we engage in some wonderous swirling dogfights that only end when one of us makes a mistake.
:cool:
There still remains only one skill that needs adjustment its SNB...and all it needs is the ability to be removed by engineering team, sci team, tac team and attack pattern omega...:cool:
I guess they figure that the dps of cannons falls off faster than the DPS of beams at range is the balance.
Yet how many times do we hear Klingons say "fed ball" so they do complain about feds when they do group up. One tactic I'm getting sick of seeing lately is a bird of prey burying it's nose in my side and plugging away. Cruisers just do not accelerate or turn fast enough to counter this. Sure we can broadside, but as has been pointed out our power levels fall off faster than the Klingon doing higher dps with his cannons and roughly equivalent shields. Still, not something I want to see nerfed or even enhance the turning rate of cruisers over. I know several ways out of it.
You do bring up an interesting point though, and I think it stems from the fact that Klingons have no other choice but pvp. For the feds it's something they do as a lark, something to fill the time. While I'm sure there are dedicated fed pvp players it's just significantly faster fed side to level up doing pve. Klingons do level slower so they spend more time getting to know their ships, they also spend more time pvping so they learn to team and whatnot. At tier 5 you'll find several feds who this is their first pvp match. That's not an issue with Klingons. None of this though is the point of the thread. I'm okay with losing to bad tactics(my side), a superior team(the other side) or better overall skill. What I'm not okay with is the "I win button"
Fabulous if you're in an escort. No "swirling dogfights" in cruisers. Also, escorts(BoPs) have access to an anti CC skill that no one else does. And since, in general, cannon users are faster than beam users it's harder than you imply to keep them at longer ranges.
Solution is a rear mounted plasma torpedo overloaded ...
solution two is repulse tractor beam..
solution three is a tractor beam
solution 4 is emergency power to engines to jet away and keep the range up..
Sorry what? All cruisers have at least a sci stattion going to two dots...which is at least sci team I and sci team II...
So no...and attack pattern omega is available to all the federation escorts as well...so that is hardly no one....
Solution 1. Is easily worked around by the slow moving torpedo. Someone with cannons/turrets can easily shoot down that torpedo before it hits them.
Solution 2. Works only for a few seconds and the speedy escort is back on you in no time. Also in the next post you mention I have 2 science slots repulsiors would remove science team II since it's not available as an ensign level BO skill, so if I take this solution it prevents me from a solution for CCs. And I'd rather deal with an escort at range than CCs
Soltuion 3. Doesn't work at less than 5km so were still at pretty close range.
Solution 4. Works unless and escort just switches to the their speed power setting or pops evasive.
So I have to use one or both of my science slots to counter something that's OP instead of using those powers to improve my performance. So we all play your way or not at all? I hope you're not one of those people complaining about the lack of variety in the game because your strategy seems to be cookie cuter builds.
And I didn't specify Klingon or feds here. Yes ALL escorts can take that power. But science ships, Cruisers, carriers and what not cannot. Hence it's a workaround that only escorts can use.
And yes point 1 is made better by auto target going away....
:eek:
I have in all likely hood used more builds than 75% of the people here...preferring the BoP and universal slots since it was available in CB...
It helps me tailor my play style around how I feel like playing at any given engagement..
So I have no problem with the 'lack of variety' as my ship is a cornucopia of variety. Though I do see the problem in normal ships with static station assignments.
Then at least we have some common ground we can work from.
Yet, please put the Player factor out of the Equation here. Just because many Federation players do not PvP or do so sparingly does not mean that there aren't mechanical issues with the game.
I am not talking about player Skill here, I am talking about Game mechanics, player skill is another issue all together that should not be used to deflect or misdirect comments made on the actual mechanics.
I do reckon that someone with more experience of the game is in a better position to make comments on the game mechanics than someone with no experience of the game, yet I think by Tier IV people have enough experience with the mechanics of the game to be able to make comments based on their execution and how these play out in various situations in PvP or PvE.
I understand this is controversial, and I have a hunch Cryptic would like to let us players decide in the end through the Test Server before acting upon some of the concerns here.
And remember, you play the game the game does not play you, whatever changes people will always adapt and take advantage of opportunities, the whole "balance" issue is to insure that the mechanics of the game have it, it has not much to do with people's knowledge of the game.
And example here:
There are some things that simply are not playing out as intended. Like for instance, Disruptors, All feds can use them too if they wanted, true, but in reality most feds would not use them because disruptors are not associated with Federation Ships in Star Trek...but if Disruptors are Overpowered...then you cannot argue against calls for balance by saying "use Disruptors"..you are alienating the perception of Star Trek to your audiance, and some people will simply say, "this game does not have the Star Trek feel", because in their perception Federation ships do not use disruptors, never have had in any series or movies.
If Disruptor are overpowered then Disruptors need to be balanced. End of story.
Bops do not have a dps advantage numbers wise over escorts, and given auto targeting/firing of wpns even with cloak comming out of cloak a bop can find itself under fire before it fires back, so there is not really an element of surprise. If the bop comes out behind you while your focused on another target, well the cloack probably wouldn't have made much odds as once players have aquired a target very few seem willing to let go. A bop uncloaking behind a lone escort is one of only two situations where someone gets 'jumped' by a cloaked ship. the second being that lone player that finds itself in the middle of a swarm.
The true imbalance, if that is what your looking to show, is not even with the skills of subnuc / vm. It is not such a big issue for klingons, why, because we know who is going to have it and can focus on them first, if we want to win. I have been sub'd half a dozen times and vm's less and i am now half way through captain. The imbalance comes from the fact a bop looks like a bop looks like a bop. You might know one of them vm'd you but it is not always easy to discover who. this results in less focus being applied to klingon science pilots which gives them greater freedom to use those skills tactically as opposed to using them mearly to survive an assault by players determined to see you dead. you don't always get time to click and examine info during a fight to scout them out. This and tbh only this is why these powers seem OP to some players.
Let me help you here,
If Klingons are meant to do more damage, and feds meant to have more alternative ways to do things than damage, then why do Feds have access to the same damage output Klingons get?
QFT !!!11!1!!1
You mean...Feds using Disruptors? That is not an obvious choice for many...specially fans of Star Trek...this is not WoW...there is history behind Star Trek, there have been years of Series and Movies, Conventions Technical manuals, tabletop games, databases...a lore that has been established.
Federation Ships do not use Disruptors or "green beams" if you will...so...yes, the choice is open in the game but at the cost of destroying the immersion of the setting.
yeas of associating certain gear to certain Factions, this was the first thing that poped in my eyes when I first played this Game...creating a continuation of Trek with a new story line new Dynamics that is fine...trying to change the roots of Trek...that is not fine.
If each side ran the same setup it would be easy to build a resist setup.
Do you what you feel best. If you want to keep with the lore and RP and not use something, great, but understand that you may well be putting yourself at a disadvantage.
Oh I understand, but that is where the issue stems from, why should the player be conflicted about this?
And this is not only about RP..this is about established parameters that define the Star Trek Universe...if you alter these to many people the game won't "Feel Star Trek".
Every side has its established technologies, maybe the Devs chose to do this the way they did due to time and resource constraints but reactions to this should have been expected...I only hope that post launch Development will slowly address these important details.
Be creative, invent some funky Suffix for Phaser X, where X gets replaced, and Disruptor X, have some nice graphix Effects but base them on the appropriate technology as per the Lore of the setting you are trying to recreate.
Learning from enemies and adapting technologies from enemies to improve one's own is fine, there could be a "Tertyonic Phaser" Model for instance that would do extra Damage to shields compared with the "Standard Phasers" which do Subsystem Interruption.
And these Tetryonic Phasers, could have a different graphic FX when they fire like a standard orangy Phaser beam with a swirl of bluish energy around it, as to be a bit distinct compared to a Standard Phaser.
It does not even have to be the same for all factions, or it could be a set of special effects per faction, to add some flavor to it.
And like that in the eyes of many this would have been an innovating way of presenting various different effects and still be within the realm of "canon" since these are Phasers, the weapons associated with the federation.
Just giving some examples...that could be in due time... (and in my opinion should have been).
Not if there was no resistances...I mean, all you need really is Kinetic and Energy plus a set of effects...you do not need to complicate things for specific types of weapons resistances etc etc etc...it is redundant it is not adding anything to my game play...it may even become a hassle if it occupies an important role in the gameplay too.
Of course, I am not a Min maxer, my fun does not come from searching various gear and creating the ultimate build...my fun comes from divising tactics in combat...in the field...move and counter move.
I do not try to stack the game's dice rolls to my advantage and then throw my ship in to combat...I roll the dice while in combat...so farming for items and gear without end trying to maximise DPS, maximise mitigation etc...is not me...and it is not fun to me either to do that, and nor do I think this should be the focus of a game revolving around Star Trek.
Then again, I am not reward Driven when it comes to games, I do what I do for the fun of the experience and the Adventure, not for the final reward.
As a final note, you do not know how grateful I am that STO has a Tactical Combat model, I love it because of that. I have followed it since the begining (actually even before its beginning when perpetual was supposed to be making it)...and always hoped that it would not end up having a combat model like EVE that is very Strategic as opposed to Tactical and success in combat is determined before the engagement rather than during the engagement.
In that regard, i feel the Devs hit the nail on the head, and it perfectly matches Star trek, that is when I decided that I will be playing this game for a long time to come.
Nope.Read you'r original post,it's one sided.You say basically klings should be damage and feds alternate so why do klings have access to the same skills feds do.
I simply wrote it the other way arround, why do feds have access to damage klingons do.