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Devs - Which Consoles are stackable?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in The Academy
I think it's a important question on which consoles are stackable and which ones are not. So we don't waste EC or badges buying 4 of the same type then finding out that it does nothing.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    *bump* I'd like a devs response on this too, I've heard yes, I've heard no & i've heard yes with diminishing results. so which is it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Everything I've looked at so far stacks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BigBadB wrote:
    Everything I've looked at so far stacks.

    Stacks but for lower effect. Example neutronium alloy gives me 13% energy and kinetic resistance. Equiping two of these wont give 26 % resistance though, but about 23 %.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    Stacks but for lower effect. Example neutronium alloy gives me 13% energy and kinetic resistance. Equiping two of these wont give 26 % resistance though, but about 23 %.

    it sucks how those armor consoles don't even give the right amount of resistence with just 1. I equip a console that says it should give me +15% to all energy damage resist, but in actual fact it's only 13%. 15% is low enough as it is!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I assume it stacks, but a definitive answer would be nice :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    Stacks but for lower effect. Example neutronium alloy gives me 13% energy and kinetic resistance. Equiping two of these wont give 26 % resistance though, but about 23 %.
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    it sucks how those armor consoles don't even give the right amount of resistence with just 1. I equip a console that says it should give me +15% to all energy damage resist, but in actual fact it's only 13%. 15% is low enough as it is!
    Resistance bonuses are converted into resistance percentages via a 1 - (1 / (1 + bonus)) formula. However, this isn't a diminishing return.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BigBadB wrote:
    Resistance bonuses are converted into resistance percentages via a 1 - (1 / (1 + bonus)) formula. However, this isn't a diminishing return.

    why do I need to care about these crazy formulae? the item says +15% resistence, but I get only 13%. this is wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    why do I need to care about these crazy formulae? the item says +15% resistence, but I get only 13%. this is wrong.

    ...Because understanding how the formula works will help you to figure out that you are getting the proper amount of resistance, but your perception of that situation is incorrect due to how it is calculated, and why it is applied in that specific fashion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    why do I need to care about these crazy formulae? the item says +15% resistence, but I get only 13%. this is wrong.

    The percentage listed on the item is how much extra damage it will let you take. A +15% phaser resistance bonus, for example, will increase the amount of phaser damage it takes to destroy your hull by 15%. Two of them will increase the phaser damage required to destroy your hull by 30%, and so on.

    The formula converts an exponential return into a linear return. Again, it's not a diminishing return.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Don't go off-topic guys. But I do think the whole 15% -> 13% is screwy even if there is a formula. Because what it says should be what it applies. It's like if you went to McDonalds, Order 4 chicken sandwitches. Then the person hands you 4 chicken patties, 4 sets of buns, and the rest. Then tells you to figure it out yourself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    WarUnit wrote: »
    Don't go off-topic guys. But I do think the whole 15% -> 13% is screwy even if there is a formula. Because what it says should be what it applies. It's like if you went to McDonalds, Order 4 chicken sandwitches. Then the person hands you 4 chicken patties, 4 sets of buns, and the rest. Then tells you to figure it out yourself.

    What it says is what it applies, it just doesn't say what you think it says. ;)

    Once again, resist bonuses (ie, +15% phaser resist) increase the amount of damage of the appropriate type you can take by the percentage listed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    why do I need to care about these crazy formulae? the item says +15% resistence, but I get only 13%. this is wrong.

    It's not a crazy formula. It's just Cryptic's bad tooltip and documention that doesn't describes how things actually work. Cryptic has ALWAYS use the X * ( 1 + <bonus total> ) and X / ( 1 + <bonus total> ) formulas for determining magnitudes.

    So yes, all of the consoles stack. If you can can somehow stack 10 consoles that give +20% Phaser and Disruptor damage resistance. You would get a net +200% bonus to Phaser and Disruptor damage resistance. But the +200% is a buff it's not a net damage reduction modifier. It doesn't means that you are twice over invulnerability to damage.

    If you could stack enough consoles for a +100% damage resistance bonus, It doesn't mean you take no damage to that damage type. It's means you take X / ( 1 + 1.00 ) = X / 2 damage. In other words a +100% damage resistance bonus nets to a 50% reduction of damage taken. Similar is you could reach +200% in bonuses, your net damage resistance would be X / ( 1 + 2.00 ) == X / 3. (A net 66% reduction in damage).

    The formlula is basic to Cryptic's game designs as they've been using it for 6+ years. I should know. I've been playing they games ever since the City of Heroes closed beta. Once you take a few minutes to understand how the formulas work, then a huge amount of game mechanics will make sense. Take a +15% damage resistance console. Plug it into the formula using 1 on a base: 1 / ( 1 + 0.15 ) == 1 / 1.15 == .8695 which is is about a 13.5% reduction in damage that you will take. Exactly as the ships stats will show you.

    Edit: And I call Crytpic to task for not explaining how the mechanics work. This would be plastered all over their documentation, forums and web site. The player should not have to explain how the game works at this basic level. And you can't use the game bing dynamic as an excuse. This game mechanic will not change as you've been using it for a decade now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    Stacks but for lower effect. Example neutronium alloy gives me 13% energy and kinetic resistance. Equiping two of these wont give 26 % resistance though, but about 23 %.
    sort of like 50% + 50% = 75% not 100% percent.

    say you have 100 resistance 13% lets 87% though then the second is 13% for the 87% = 75.56% (which should be 24% my guess the 13% is actually like 12.5% rounded which would be 23.43%
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    But back on subject for Dev reply about console stackable or what the hell is going on.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    WarUnit wrote: »
    But back on subject for Dev reply about console stackable or what the hell is going on.

    As I already said, everything I've looked at so far stacks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    fuzun wrote: »
    It's not a crazy formula. It's just Cryptic's bad tooltip and documention that doesn't describes how things actually work. Cryptic has ALWAYS use the X * ( 1 + <bonus total> ) and X / ( 1 + <bonus total> ) formulas for determining magnitudes.

    So yes, all of the consoles stack. If you can can somehow stack 10 consoles that give +20% Phaser and Disruptor damage resistance. You would get a net +200% bonus to Phaser and Disruptor damage resistance. But the +200% is a buff it's not a net damage reduction modifier. It doesn't means that you are twice over invulnerability to damage.

    If you could stack enough consoles for a +100% damage resistance bonus, It doesn't mean you take no damage to that damage type. It's means you take X / ( 1 + 1.00 ) = X / 2 damage. In other words a +100% damage resistance bonus nets to a 50% reduction of damage taken. Similar is you could reach +200% in bonuses, your net damage resistance would be X / ( 1 + 2.00 ) == X / 3. (A net 66% reduction in damage).

    The formlula is basic to Cryptic's game designs as they've been using it for 6+ years. I should know. I've been playing they games ever since the City of Heroes closed beta. Once you take a few minutes to understand how the formulas work, then a huge amount of game mechanics will make sense. Take a +15% damage resistance console. Plug it into the formula using 1 on a base: 1 / ( 1 + 0.15 ) == 1 / 1.15 == .8695 which is is about a 13.5% reduction in damage that you will take. Exactly as the ships stats will show you.

    Edit: And I call Crytpic to task for not explaining how the mechanics work. This would be plastered all over their documentation, forums and web site. The player should not have to explain how the game works at this basic level. And you can't use the game bing dynamic as an excuse. This game mechanic will not change as you've been using it for a decade now.

    Thank you for this, but I gotta say that even with the explanation I still don't understand it.

    :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Philnblanc wrote:
    Thank you for this, but I gotta say that even with the explanation I still don't understand it.

    :confused:

    Not sure if this will help make it any clearer, but it may be worth a try.

    The only thing you really need to understand about resistance consoles is that the percentage bonus listed on the item is how much extra damage of the appropriate type it will let you take.

    Say you have a ship with 1000 hull points. It'll take 1000 damage to destroy it. If you fit that ship with three +20% phaser resistance consoles, it'll take 60% more phaser damage to destroy it (1600 damage).

    You don't really need to worry about the math behind it unless you're a game design geek like me. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I seen some resistance that offered 25% to plasma, if I stacked 4 of these I should be resistant to it 100%

    So yeah, it would be good to hear how this works from the powers that be. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    ALL consoles stack, it just depends on what type of bonus it gives. It doesn't need a dev response.

    Any consoles that give a % bonus use the formula already listed above. This includes consoles such as resist, turn rate and shield regeneration consoles. It also affects crit chance from weapons/armor.

    Consoles that give a flat bonus (such as +30 to phaser weapons) add a flat value. Two +30 phaser consoles will add +60% damage to phasers.

    With a base 50 crit severity stat, adding +40 armor and a +20 weapon will give you 110% crit severity.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'm sorry, the formula above doesn't make much sense to me. Here we go then...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    HotT wrote:
    I seen some resistance that offered 25% to plasma, if I stacked 4 of these I should be resistant to it 100%

    So yeah, it would be good to hear how this works from the powers that be. :D


    Easy. ;) You would take twice (100%) as much damage to be destroyed (= 50% damage reduction). In other word that % number is how much more effective hitpoints you get.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    HotT wrote:
    I seen some resistance that offered 25% to plasma, if I stacked 4 of these I should be resistant to it 100%

    So yeah, it would be good to hear how this works from the powers that be. :D

    Check BigBadB's article.

    Think of the 25% not as the reduction in the amount of damage you will take, but as the amount of additional damage the enemy will have to inflict to destroy your ship. If it would have taken 1000 points of plasma damage to destroy your vessel, with a single 25% plasma resistance console it will now take 1250 points of damage or 25% more points of damage to destroy your vessel.

    If you stack all four, it will now take 2000 points of damage to destroy your ship. In other words it will take 100% more plasma damage to destroy your ship than it would have without your four 25% consoles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dejin wrote:
    Check BigBadB's article.

    Think of the 25% not as the reduction in the amount of damage you will take, but as the amount of additional damage the enemy will have to inflict to destroy your ship. If it would have taken 1000 points of plasma damage to destroy your vessel, with a single 25% plasma resistance console it will now take 1250 points of damage or 25% more points of damage to destroy your vessel.

    If you stack all four, it will now take 2000 points of damage to destroy your ship. In other words it will take 100% more plasma damage to destroy your ship than it would have without your four 25% consoles.

    Great example and good article.

    So while it would take 2000 damage to kill you, each hit taken is reduced by 50% to equal the 2x as many hit points you had before. Since you have 100% more hit points, it takes twice as much to kill you which is where the 50% reduction comes from.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    HotT wrote:
    I seen some resistance that offered 25% to plasma, if I stacked 4 of these I should be resistant to it 100%

    So yeah, it would be good to hear how this works from the powers that be. :D

    no it would be only

    2 > (1 - .25) *(1-.25) = .5625 or 44%
    3> above * (1- .25) = .42 or 58%
    4> above * (1-.25) = .32 or 68%

    each console block 25% of whats left of prior console.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    See http://tinyurl.com/storesists for a chart of how consoles stack for resistances.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    no it would be only

    2 > (1 - .25) *(1-.25) = .5625 or 44%
    3> above * (1- .25) = .42 or 58%
    4> above * (1-.25) = .32 or 68%

    each console block 25% of whats left of prior console.
    Nope, the formula is Resist = 1 - (1 / (1 + Resist Bonus)), where Resist Bonus is the total bonus from all sources expressed as a fraction.

    So four +25% consoles give you a resist bonus of 100%, which is 1 when expressed as a fraction. So you'd get 1 - (1 / (1 +1)) = 0.5, or 50% actual resistance.

    This would reduce all incoming damage by 50%, meaning it would take twice as much damage (+100%, the total bonus) to kill you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    stararmy wrote: »
    See http://tinyurl.com/storesists for a chart of how consoles stack for resistances.

    The reference to a 'sweet spot' on that chart is misleading, as there's not actually any diminishing return, and hence no 'sweet spot'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Philnblanc wrote:
    Thank you for this, but I gotta say that even with the explanation I still don't understand it.

    :confused:

    The bottom line is that like Consoles do stack. You get full benefit when you stack 2 or more. The diminishing returns is in the math. Basically it means the more Consoles (and buffs) you stack, you get smaller net gains.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    fuzun wrote: »
    Basically it means the more Consoles (and buffs) you stack, you get smaller net gains.
    This is not the case, at least not with anything I've looked at.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree there are no 'diminishing returns' in one sense, but it looks odd that if you throw 1 console with +25% resistance on, you actually get +20% resistance. On the other hand, 1 +20% console and 1 +5% console give you the same result.
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