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cant fly straight down or up

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
yes its annoying, is there any particular reason as to why we cant fly straight up and down. you know like you would be able to in space. Anytime there are enemies below you , you have to turn into a slow corkscrew dive and tilt your camera above you to get any sort of perspective on you moving downover. It is, in a nutshell stupid.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I hate it, one of the most annoying aspects of the game not sure with it was ever even allowed to be like it is. Should have been prevented but i assume it has something to do with firing arcs and shield damage
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ive read so many complaints about this since OB but I never really had an opinion until I started warping into systems with anomalies directly below me. BAh. I agree with you now haha.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I agree... but (and there is allways a but) did ships ever apear not in a horizontal plane in the shows? I'm actually curious. Liek why was one ship never upside down compared to another.

    instead they were allways at the same level, facing each other. Even in some of the big epic battles in the movies there was less 3d action than you'd expect.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    Ive read so many complaints about this since OB but I never really had an opinion until I started warping into systems with anomalies directly below me. BAh. I agree with you now haha.

    Yea I never thought it was a big deal either. But as I play it often becomes one.

    So yea.....

    If they dont want us to fly DIRECTLY down, which I think they wont for some sort of tactical reason, at least allow us to pitch down or up a little more. As it is, its a bit too limiting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    obic wrote:
    I agree... but (and there is allways a but) did ships ever apear not in a horizontal plane in the shows? I'm actually curious. Liek why was one ship never upside down compared to another.

    instead they were allways at the same level, facing each other. Even in some of the big epic battles in the movies there was less 3d action than you'd expect.

    indeed yes, because of the firing arcs they didnt need to really. but, imagine if in star trek films if the enemies they killed dropped loot, but it was 10 kms directly below them, it would take them ages to get to it as they could not simply move the ship on its axis to point down, just like here :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    In Star Trek Online, you only move via impulse forward or slow reverse (via maneuvering thrusters?).

    In The Wrath of Khan you could also move the ship with maneuvering thrusters up and down without facing up and down.

    Seems like that would be one way to help, but I agree that the rotation limit should be removed somehow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    sigh.. there IS NO UP OR DOWN IN SPACE.

    it is all relative depending on what angle you view the object from.

    also, inbefore the fallacy "the engine doesn't support it" because it obviously does.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    obic wrote:
    I agree... but (and there is allways a but) did ships ever apear not in a horizontal plane in the shows? I'm actually curious. Liek why was one ship never upside down compared to another.

    actually in if i remeber correctly there were a few shows in TNG that they did a manuver that would do a complete back flip over the enemy and shot at him from behind and also in an episode of enterprise they had to send Cm Tucker from one ship to another while in warp but one of the ships had to be upside down with a cable linking both ships together so that he could shimmy up/down the cable to the other ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    sigh.. there IS NO UP OR DOWN IN SPACE.

    it is all relative depending on what angle you view the object from.

    also, inbefore the fallacy "the engine doesn't support it" because it obviously does.

    yes, well .uh uh. Anyway, what i am trying to say is.. you cant get to a target if its directly below you. As i said actually.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Lawsie wrote: »
    yes, well .uh uh. Anyway, what i am trying to say is.. you cant get to a target if its directly below you. As i said actually.

    I wasn't responding to you.

    I agree with how dumb it is not being able to fly in full 3D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    heh sorry, sometimes posts look really sarcastic when you type them, i was actually typing out the beginning bit as an apology because i know there is no up and down in space, then i noticed i had actually typed (targets below you) but instead of deleting the post and starting again i just typed it as i thought it. i think im going crazy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    obic wrote:
    I agree... but (and there is allways a but) did ships ever apear not in a horizontal plane in the shows? I'm actually curious. Liek why was one ship never upside down compared to another.

    instead they were allways at the same level, facing each other. Even in some of the big epic battles in the movies there was less 3d action than you'd expect.

    The last TNG episode "All Good Things" the Future Enterprise flies "up" (relative to the camera) perpendicular to a Neg'var and pokes a few holes in it with the giant saucer cannon.

    Straying away from topic sort of: In space which way is up? Is Earth right side up? These are questions that cannot be definitely answered without something else to relate it to. hehe

    For example: in relation to the solar system is the Earth right side up? How about in relation to the galaxy?

    Back toward topic: Why you can only fly 45 degrees up and down is something only the developers can answer. I would assume they could allow 360 degrees on the x and y axis, but chose not to. Maybe for PvP reasons, I dunno.

    I'd guess PvP that way fighting is a little more organized. I'm good at combat flight sims and have a descent situational awareness (knowing who's around me and where), but perhaps this is a way to aid those who aren't as quick to pick up on SA. Lots of people get tunnel vision which I imagine is terrible in 3d space combat. I usually get shot down if I don't keep my "head" on a swivel in combat flight sims.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    so there's this game called EvE...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JT26thES wrote:
    The last TNG episode "All Good Things" the Future Enterprise flies "up" (relative to the camera) perpendicular to a Neg'var and pokes a few holes in it with the giant saucer cannon.

    Straying away from topic sort of: In space which way is up? Is Earth right side up? These are questions that cannot be definitely answered without something else to relate it to. hehe

    For example: in relation to the solar system is the Earth right side up? How about in relation to the galaxy?

    Back toward topic: Why you can only fly 45 degrees up and down is something only the developers can answer. I would assume they could allow 360 degrees on the x and y axis, but chose not to. Maybe for PvP reasons, I dunno.

    I'd guess PvP that way fighting is a little more organized. I'm good at combat flight sims and have a descent situational awareness (knowing who's around me and where), but perhaps this is a way to aid those who aren't as quick to pick up on SA. Lots of people get tunnel vision which I imagine is terrible in 3d space combat. I usually get shot down if I don't keep my "head" on a swivel in combat flight sims.

    The problem in PvP though (and less frequently in PvE) is that if an enemy is above you / sufficently below you, it's darned impossible to get a lock on with cannons or torpedoes. This is especially rough on escorts, who get pounded by cruiser and science vessel beam weapons as they circle and circle and circle in an attempt to get on level and line up a shot. I don't see any way that this is "helpful" to people with poor situational awareness :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I'm wondering if there's any reason this question needs to be asked about a million times a day, when devs have reported that they'll be increasing the angle soon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I'm wondering if there's any reason this question needs to be asked about a million times a day, when devs have reported that they'll be increasing the angle soon.

    Wait, where? I'm not questioning you because I doubt you, I just want to see it. Excellent news!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Lawsie wrote: »
    yes its annoying, is there any particular reason as to why we cant fly straight up and down. you know like you would be able to in space. Anytime there are enemies below you , you have to turn into a slow corkscrew dive and tilt your camera above you to get any sort of perspective on you moving downover. It is, in a nutshell stupid.

    This is an good question, ive found myself needing it when i come up to an battle or something we need an axis that allows for such things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well, the bounds of a free 3D environment would most likely be a sphere or ovoid of some sort, and doing collision calculations (to prevent you from getting lost in open space) would be at least slightly more computationally intensive in a sphere.

    In the vast, vast majority of situations, ships in Star Trek either occupied the same relative Z axis or stayed within a somewhat cubical subset of space.

    It's usually common for them to remain "upright" relative to each other unless one ship is disabled. This is "less" common later in the show, when banking and rolling maneuvers were at least witnessed, though not commonplace. This is relatively important to UI simplicity, because coupled with the above fact, a flat map can be used to approximate the entire space relative to every observer just by moving the point of origin, and not by rotating the space surrounding an observer. In the case of the game, you can generate a space map just by projecting everything in negative Z direction onto a plane parallel with the bottom(or top, however you wanna do it...) of the map.

    It also prevents other problems with full 3D interaction, like complicated world maps and coordinate systems (because 3D Cartesian coordinates and spherical/cylindrical coordinates are HARD for most people, really!). I would love to be able to move in full 3D, but I think we're trying to make the game easy to use (because the interface already looks and feels like 1980 :( ). A better solution would be allowing pitch to +/- 90 degrees from the horizontal and then auto-roll ships that are not "right-side up." This keeps the system just as easy as it is now map-wise, but lets us move wherever we want.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CptBrahms wrote:
    Wait, where? I'm not questioning you because I doubt you, I just want to see it. Excellent news!

    It's in the last link in the first post in this thread.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ships need rag doll mechanics too when they die in combat... I want to see them spin helplessly out of control before blowing up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CptBrahms wrote:
    The problem in PvP though (and less frequently in PvE) is that if an enemy is above you / sufficently below you, it's darned impossible to get a lock on with cannons or torpedoes. This is especially rough on escorts, who get pounded by cruiser and science vessel beam weapons as they circle and circle and circle in an attempt to get on level and line up a shot. I don't see any way that this is "helpful" to people with poor situational awareness :(

    Yes and no. If they are that high up or down it's not usually a tactical advantage for them. Most of the maps I've been on have other objectives than just killing the opponent. If they are not near those objectives, they're just gonna loose the match anyways. If the objective is to kill the opponent, all they are doing is delaying the match for no good reason, outside of the example you provided.

    I'm just guessing that they chose this way to try to help prevent players from being blindsided (from directly above or below), and mostly to be on the same level of combat (in space, not skill).
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