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Too much freedom too quickly

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Some people have complained that there's not enough freedom to do stuff in STO.

I wonder if the problem is that you get too much freedom too quickly.

I know in the recent movie, Kirk got his first command straight out of the academy. But Kirk was supposed to be an incredible exception, and that's why he was famous in starfleet. The idea that everyone is commanding their own ship straight out of the academy is rediculous even if it is war time. And more importantly, it means that there's nothing to work towards.

Until you're a Commander or Captain in rank, you shouldn't have the freedom to roam the galaxy freely. You should be assigned to a certain starbase or ship, and you have to impress your superiors to gain more responsibility and freedom.

Low level players could still practice flying ships or commanding away teams in the holodeck. The holodeck is the perfect game mechanic for a Star Trek MMO.

Starfleet is a hierachical organisation. It's not Trek for everyone to be autonomous until they've earned it.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    thats not fun for a game.



    Okay I'm Ensign, gotta go guard thios door for 6 hours to impress my captain.


    Okay Im a lieuteneant now, Gotta escort this guy to the Brig to impress my Captain.




    THis isnt the show ro the movies, the entire senior staff was killed so you were given a combat promotion to command the ship.


    The Ensign, Lieutenant LC COmmander are just Star Trek names for your level in the game...doesnt actually mean anything.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    then people wud have quite even sooner
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    TOO much freedom CAN be a bad thing. I dunno if its changed, but when I played EVE, you essentially got dropped in space and told to have fun. THATS a HARD thing to get over lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wheels00 wrote: »
    Some people have complained that there's not enough freedom to do stuff in STO.

    I wonder if the problem is that you get too much freedom too quickly.

    I know in the recent movie, Kirk got his first command straight out of the academy. But Kirk was supposed to be an incredible exception, and that's why he was famous in starfleet. The idea that everyone is commanding their own ship straight out of the academy is rediculous even if it is war time. And more importantly, it means that there's nothing to work towards.

    Until you're a Commander or Captain in rank, you shouldn't have the freedom to roam the galaxy freely. You should be assigned to a certain starbase or ship, and you have to impress your superiors to gain more responsibility and freedom.

    Low level players could still practice flying ships or commanding away teams in the holodeck. The holodeck is the perfect game mechanic for a Star Trek MMO.

    Starfleet is a hierachical organisation. It's not Trek for everyone to be autonomous until they've earned it.

    First of all, I believe the real Kirk had to work his way up through the ranks like anyone else. The Abrams Kirk... well, I'm sure there are people with strong opinions here who could tell you what they think of him. :rolleyes:

    Second, I just can't imagine a game as you describe being very successful. Gamers are impatient people, and I don't think that many who weren't complete die-hard Trekkers would stick around if they had to level up nearly halfway to max level before they could even get their own ship.

    I honestly don't have a problem with the way it is now. Sure, it's a little far fetched, but it is a time of war. As for me, I just pretend that my character was the only one to be given her ship so quickly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wheels00 wrote: »
    Some people have complained that there's not enough freedom to do stuff in STO.

    I wonder if the problem is that you get too much freedom too quickly.

    I know in the recent movie, Kirk got his first command straight out of the academy. But Kirk was supposed to be an incredible exception, and that's why he was famous in starfleet. The idea that everyone is commanding their own ship straight out of the academy is rediculous even if it is war time. And more importantly, it means that there's nothing to work towards.

    Until you're a Commander or Captain in rank, you shouldn't have the freedom to roam the galaxy freely. You should be assigned to a certain starbase or ship, and you have to impress your superiors to gain more responsibility and freedom.

    Low level players could still practice flying ships or commanding away teams in the holodeck. The holodeck is the perfect game mechanic for a Star Trek MMO.

    Starfleet is a hierachical organisation. It's not Trek for everyone to be autonomous until they've earned it.


    Well, you're not alone. A lot of people felt this way before the release, and probably still do. So again, there are many who would absolutely agree with you.

    I dont. Sure, what you're suggesting is more realistic, but what shines most in STO is the space combat. Also, these ships you are seeing right off the bat are OLD ships. Outdated. With old equipment. They certainly arent state of the art.

    Starfleet during this time probably feels they need to field as many ships as they can. Even older inferior models of yesterday. That either means promoting thousands of officers to Captain, which they havent had the experience or merit to earn that rank, or instead, let lesser ranked officers command these vessels.

    Also, like Kirk, YOU are an exception. You've proven yourself able to lead and command a ship in a very bad situation when you were outnumbered and should never have been given a command at all. Every player is a hero due to the events in the tutorial. Its something to consider.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    thats not fun for a game.



    Okay I'm Ensign, gotta go guard thios door for 6 hours to impress my captain.


    Okay Im a lieuteneant now, Gotta escort this guy to the Brig to impress my Captain.




    THis isnt the show ro the movies, the entire senior staff was killed so you were given a combat promotion to command the ship.


    The Ensign, Lieutenant LC COmmander are just Star Trek names for your level in the game...doesnt actually mean anything.

    It's an MMO. It's not meant to be as fun as it can be straight from the start. That defeats the entire purpose. Or, in other words, there's nothing to work towards. MMO's try to emulate the cycle of real life. You have to work and earn towards a better life, that's what makes it worthwhile, that's what you strive for. I'm not saying it should be boring at first, merely that the OP is correct in every semblance of it, both in terms of an MMO, and the IP it's based on. We should not ALL be captains of a starship, and it should be a GREAT deal harder to reach those legendary titles..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Your Just TRIBBLE And Have Never Played An Mmo
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think this kind of complaint is coming from the same sentiment that a majority of players feel when doing PVE: lack of sense of accomplishment.

    And I agree with this sentiment, but I disagree with the reasoning. It is not that we have too much freedom of choice. Far from it. If we had more freedom of choice, or alternative ways to accomplish our missions (instead of step-by-step enforced linear progression), we might feel more accomplished.

    The core of the problem is the lack of difficulty in general. If PVE were difficult, and if we required grouping up to accomplish certain required progression points, then we would feel a sense of accomplishment and pride in our ranks.

    The upcoming end-game content is one step toward that. Another step is increasing the base difficulty of lower tier PVP, and adding more Fleet Actions. Lastly, I would also suggest increasing the reward gain at lower tiers, but lowering it at higher tiers.


    EDIT: Furthermore, if we felt consequences for our actions, that would also encourage a sense of accomplishment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    hmanny wrote: »
    Your Just TRIBBLE And Have Never Played An Mmo

    That was uncalled for and offensive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    hmanny wrote: »
    Your Just TRIBBLE And Have Never Played An Mmo

    and its based on a klingon war so they need prople to have ships and be flying to random plces killing sruff
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    RedSunBird wrote: »
    That was uncalled for and offensive.

    it was reported too... whyd you change yer pic? I liked the old one :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    RedSunBird wrote: »
    That was uncalled for and offensive.

    k im sorry i didnt mean it so harsh mmo's have very free enviroments
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    hmanny wrote: »
    Your Just TRIBBLE And Have Never Played An Mmo

    I dont agree with the OP, but I can respect his post. However, you've managed to offend even me. I'd highly suggest straightening up your attitude if you care to post here at all.

    Because this kind of TRIBBLE gets you banned pretty darn fast around here. If you dont have the intelligence to post in a reasonable way, dont bother.

    The adults are trying to talk here. Kiddy table is over yonder.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I dont agree with the OP, but I can respect his post. However, you've managed to offend even me. I'd highly suggest straightening up your attitude if you care to post here at all.

    Because this kind of TRIBBLE gets you banned pretty darn fast around here. If you dont have the intelligence to post in a reasonable way, dont bother.

    The adults are trying to talk here. Kiddy table is over yonder.

    look above ur post lol and i do appoligize for my fast thinking
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    it was reported too... whyd you change yer pic? I liked the old one :p

    Same here... I changed it because someone informed me that my old icon wasn't of Data, but of Lore. I don't love Lore, I love Data. :D
    hmanny wrote: »
    k im sorry i didnt mean it so harsh mmo's have very free enviroments

    Thanks for apologizing, many people would have instantly jumped to being on the defensive. I'm a little sensitive about the use of the word "TRIBBLE" when it's not being used in the medical sense.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    RedSunBird wrote: »
    Same here... I changed it because someone informed me that my old icon wasn't of Data, but of Lore. I don't love Lore, I love Data. :D



    Thanks for apologizing, many people would have instantly jumped to being on the defensive. I'm a little sensitive about the use of the word "TRIBBLE" when it's not being used in the medical sense.

    I love the new one because RedSunBird IS a gurl. Hehehehehe. So it fits. Nice job there. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I love the new one because RedSunBird IS a gurl. Hehehehehe. So it fits. Nice job there. :D

    I saw it and it made me laugh, so it won the coveted "RedSunBird's new icon" spot!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    hmanny wrote: »
    look above ur post lol and i do appoligize for my fast thinking

    Well thats good in itself. Most people wouldnt own up and say they were wrong and then apologize. So -1 karma then +1 karma for being a man about it. Bravo. You're good now. Way to be and I respect that.

    ALSO, and this is very important, you NEED to go back and EDIT that post and just remove it. Or say something different. If its seen by a mod you will get an infraction for that. Please do. Infractions suck. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Obviously it has got to be a balance. So maybe having to wait till Commander is too long. I'm just saying that you need something to work towards.

    In WoW, you can't get mounts until you get to a certain level, and you can't enter (or survive in) certain areas until you've sufficiently leveled up.

    Maybe players could face a dillema when they reach Lieutenant Commander. They're offered command of a small ship in some distant sector, which they can either take, or they can stay at your current assignment and hold out for a better command opportunity.

    As for lower level quests, obviously you're not going to want to guard a door for 6 hours. But there's plenty of other possibilities, i'm sure. Find the chief medical officers missing tricorder. Investigate a fellow officer who you see stealing weapons from the weapons locker. Escourt a scientist to a planet and protect them against an unexpected ambush.

    Just some ideas.

    Maybe i'm in a minority in terms of the type of gaming experience I enjoy. If so, that's fine. But if Cryptic find in the next few months that subscriptions are dropping off, then this issue is just something they may want to think about.

    I hope STO is successful and continues to grow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Gameplay and Story Segregation

    Yes, it's unrealistic for us to be doing all the stuff we do in the game, but if they made it true to the story then we'd be spending 3 years cataloging gaseous planetary anomalies before we got to do anything interesting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wheels00 wrote: »
    Obviously it has got to be a balance. So maybe having to wait till Commander is too long. I'm just saying that you need something to work towards.

    In WoW, you can't get mounts until you get to a certain level, and you can't enter (or survive in) certain areas until you've sufficiently leveled up.

    Maybe players could face a dillema when they reach Lieutenant Commander. They're offered command of a small ship in some distant sector, which they can either take, or they can stay at your current assignment and hold out for a better command opportunity.

    As for lower level quests, obviously you're not going to want to guard a door for 6 hours. But there's plenty of other possibilities, i'm sure. Find the chief medical officers missing tricorder. Investigate a fellow officer who you see stealing weapons from the weapons locker. Escourt a scientist to a planet and protect them against an unexpected ambush.

    Just some ideas.

    Maybe i'm in a minority in terms of the type of gaming experience I enjoy. If so, that's fine. But if Cryptic find in the next few months that subscriptions are dropping off, then this issue is just something they may want to think about.

    I hope STO is successful and continues to grow.


    Well before the game released for some reason, I expected to spend some serious time in Starfleet Academy. Doing the same sort of stuff you just mentioned.

    But alas it did not come to be. It would have been cool though. And it would have added four whole ranks to the game. 1st year cadet, 2nd, 3rd, 4rth.

    And there would have been holographic scenarios, maybe an academy mystery to solve, different things like that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think this kind of complaint is coming from the same sentiment that a majority of players feel when doing PVE: lack of sense of accomplishment.

    And I agree with this sentiment, but I disagree with the reasoning. It is not that we have too much freedom of choice. Far from it. If we had more freedom of choice, or alternative ways to accomplish our missions (instead of step-by-step enforced linear progression), we might feel more accomplished.

    The core of the problem is the lack of difficulty in general. If PVE were difficult, and if we required grouping up to accomplish certain required progression points, then we would feel a sense of accomplishment and pride in our ranks.

    The upcoming end-game content is one step toward that. Another step is increasing the base difficulty of lower tier PVP, and adding more Fleet Actions. Lastly, I would also suggest increasing the reward gain at lower tiers, but lowering it at higher tiers.


    EDIT: Furthermore, if we felt consequences for our actions, that would also encourage a sense of accomplishment.

    Yes, I agree that's quite possible. I think you're right. What I feel like I am personally missing may well be a sense of accomplishment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    hmanny wrote: »
    look above ur post lol and i do appoligize for my fast thinking

    Appology accepted. Thanks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Starfleet can churn out ships nearly as fast as it pleases. Think about it, it's a world almost completly devoid of scarcity. With replicator technology and automation there is no shortage of equipment. What tjhere is a shortage of, is captains. Those are the things starfleet can't replicate.

    Also i thinkof it as a sort of "grade inflation" 50 years ago a "C" was average, now an "A" is average. 100 years ago a "Captain" was in charge, now a "LT"*.

    But really it's a suspension of disbeleif thing. Like tachyon particles or "redshirts" or the choice of an away team. (really the doctor, helmsman, and Counselor need to come explore this anomoly?) Some thinsg you just can't think too hard about.


    *because i can't spell the word right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well before the game released for some reason, I expected to spend some serious time in Starfleet Academy. Doing the same sort of stuff you just mentioned.

    But alas it did not come to be. It would have been cool though. And it would have added four whole ranks to the game. 1st year cadet, 2nd, 3rd, 4rth.

    And there would have been holographic scenarios, maybe an academy mystery to solve, different things like that.

    Yeah, exactly.

    Quest: Get in 3 bar fights
    Quest: Sleep with 2 Orions

    ;-)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well, some of us had ideas about how to improve Ensign and Lieutenant to give the player a greater sense of accomplishment.

    One idea was having Ensigns go through a holographic Kobyashi Maru scenario, graduate the Academy upon completion (similar to the 'ceremony' in the Stateroom for advancing in rank), and gain the Runabout. They would be in the Runabout until Lt 5, and upon hitting Lt 6 they would be promoted to the T1 light cruiser.

    EDIT: This transition could easily be marked as promotion from Lieutenant (Junior Grade) to Lieutenant (Senior Grade). We already have rank pips for this in-game.

    KDF players, on the other hand, should be experiencing the trial-by-fire that new Starfleet players currently experience. In fact, the current tutorial could simply be re-skinned for them, and then players would not be forced to start as Federation. (At present, the reason for the Klingon 'unlock' at Lt 6 is due to the lack of a KDF tutorial.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well, some of us had ideas about how to improve Ensign and Lieutenant to give the player a greater sense of accomplishment.

    One idea was having Ensigns go through a holographic Kobyashi Maru scenario, graduate the Academy upon completion (similar to the 'ceremony' in the Stateroom for advancing in rank), and gain the Runabout. They would be in the Runabout until Lt 5, and upon hitting Lt 6 they would be promoted to the T1 light cruiser.

    KDF players, on the other hand, should be experiencing the trial-by-fire that new Starfleet players currently experience. In fact, the current tutorial could simply be re-skinned for them, and then players would not be forced to start as Federation. (At present, the reason for the Klingon 'unlock' at Lt 6 is due to the lack of a KDF tutorial.)

    I like the sound of that quite a lot.

    What would you think about not being able to have NPCs under your command until the same point (Lt 6 in your scheme?)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wheels00 wrote: »
    I like the sound of that quite a lot.

    What would you think about not being able to have NPCs under your command until the same point (Lt 6 in your scheme?)
    I would still say to have 1 officer (and unlimited Red Shirts for Away Teams) from Lt 1 to Lt 5. I also think it would be fine if you wanted to collect more, but the Runabout has a limited loadout anyway.

    Remember that the player still needs to learn how to use them, since the entire game revolves around them. (In my opinion, this is the best gameplay aspect about STO, something I find extremely compelling and different from other games.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    obic wrote:
    Starfleet can churn out ships nearly as fast as it pleases. Think about it, it's a world almost completly devoid of scarcity. With replicator technology and automation there is no shortage of equipment. What tjhere is a shortage of, is captains. Those are the things starfleet can't replicate.

    Also i thinkof it as a sort of "grade inflation" 50 years ago a "C" was average, now an "A" is average. 100 years ago a "Captain" was in charge, now a "LT"*.

    But really it's a suspension of disbeleif thing. Like tachyon particles or "redshirts" or the choice of an away team. (really the doctor, helmsman, and Counselor need to come explore this anomoly?) Some thinsg you just can't think too hard about.


    *because i can't spell the word right.


    I guess you could explain it that way.

    I don't mind if things are different from canonical Trek if it serves game play.
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