From what I have noticed on these forums, their are some problems with the way debate is carried out. I have a few suggestions to ANYONE that posts on these forums.
For those that have an issue with the game, it will help all involved to follow these guidelines:
When presenting Criticism, try to keep it CONSTRUCTIVE. After giving a review of a negative aspect of the game, it helps to add in some thoughts and ideas on how to improve the game; this allows the community to take your entire idea into account and therefore ponder how such a change would affect them. This allows an open discussion of your ideas and criticism, which helps to speed the process of other ideas and other Constructive Criticism.
For those that wholeheartedly support all aspects of the game:
Please, try not to dispel criticism; remember that without criticism there is no drive to improve aspects of the concept. If you do have an opposing idea with a criticism; present your response in the same manner as above: Present a criticism of the said critisicm, but also give ways in which the said criticism can be improved.
Remember that this game is in the early stages of development, so both Input AND Being Calm in the forums can truly help speed the process of development.
Even at 14 Years Old, I can Plainly See How Following These Steps Can Help All Aspects Of This Game.
To Be Very Honest, I doubt anyone will act on my words; but at least I hope they will read this thread and UNKNOWINGLY take these ideas into account lol
You still haven't figured it out? The forums ARE the game. We're paying $15 per month to test our diplomatic skills against each other. The virtual 3D world that we have access to is only meant to be a distraction, similar to the holodeck.
To Be Very Honest, I doubt anyone will act on my words; but at least I hope they will read this thread and UNKNOWINGLY take these ideas into account lol
I'm going to tell you the truth. it will not work, because people have tried, even me. what we need is people to report and pressure the MODs to stop the trolls, when they are gone then there can be discussion. the best thing you can do is report trolls, and keep waiting for the game's garbage day.
stay the course fellow captain, and don't let the ignorant trolls get to you.
I'm going to tell you the truth. it will not work, because people have tried, even me. what we need is people to report and pressure the MODs to stop the trolls, when they are gone then there can be discussion. the best thing you can do is report trolls, and keep waiting for the game's garbage day.
stay the course fellow captain, and don't let the ignorant trolls get to you.
Well the problem is, I would like to avoid the limiting of "Trolls" at all costs. People need to remember that "Trolls" are merely people that have problems presenting criticism in a manner that is constructive.
Well the problem is, I would like to avoid the limiting of "Trolls" at all costs. People need to remember that "Trolls" are merely people that have problems presenting criticism in a manner that is constructive.
No Trolls are people who have nothing constructive to say. People who hate the game or are negative do so by giving genuine feedback devoid of any name calling, insults and doom.
Well the problem is, I would like to avoid the limiting of "Trolls" at all costs. People need to remember that "Trolls" are merely people that have problems presenting criticism in a manner that is constructive.
What? How dare you humanize these animals? I suppose next you'll be telling me that the world isn't flat or that there is no such thing as Santa!
Well the problem is, I would like to avoid the limiting of "Trolls" at all costs. People need to remember that "Trolls" are merely people that have problems presenting criticism in a manner that is constructive.
that is not fully true, I agree with you some bit, but on the other hand there are trolls who are here to hate, disrupt, and harass the community. they do it for their own enjoyment. that is the type of troll I'm talking about.
Remember that this game is in the early stages of development, so both Input AND Being Calm in the forums can truly help speed the process of development.
The game isn't in the early stages of development, it has launched. That is the reality of the situation.
MMO's seldom change radically after launch. What you see is what you're getting. The gameplay mechanics in WoW, EQ2, and many others have largely gone unchanged since their launch. I'm not referring to expansions, bug fixes or performance. I'm talking about actual gameplay addtions that modify the game to be more in-depth, challenging and above all else more "fun". And so, if an MMO's gameplay is considered poor at launch, it is not likely to change radically enough in order to claw back the subs it lost.
This game has a foundation, that is true, but its a foundation built around a particular design model. One that doesn't seem to be able to live up to its customers expectations. Now, expectations have to be managed, that is correct. But standards have been established in the industry and lets face it, STO doesn't meet those standards. Neither do a lot of the more recently released MMO's. But STO seems to be pushing the boundary on what an MMO can get away with, a little too much.
Also, so far the devs are unwilling to acknowledge the "hot topic" issues in these forums. Which is neither instilling faith into, or encouraging subscriptions from, their customers.
Whilst I agree that debates should always be conducted in a civilised and mature manner. They don't necessarily speed up the process of development. Simply because, history has shown that regardless of the customers wishes, devs have their own plans which are not necessarily the same.
Maybe It Would Even Help If We Stop Using The Term Troll In Such A Manner; You(Maybe not me) Are Grown and therefore should act as though you don't have to resort to name-calling(Using "troll" is name-calling) in the same manner as the people you Despise.
Maybe It Would Even Help If We Stop Using The Term Troll In Such A Manner; You(Maybe not me) Are Grown and therefore should act as though you don't have to resort to name-calling(Using "troll" is name-calling) in the same manner as the people you Despise.
You brought up the term TROLL, we just explained what it means since you are confusing negative or unhappy people with being trolls.
The game isn't in the early stages of development, it has launched. That is the reality of the situation.
Games seldom change radically enough after launch. What you see is what you're getting. The gameplay mechanics in WoW, EQ2, and many others have largely gone unchanged since their launch. I'm not referring to expansions, bug fixes or performance. I'm talking about actual gameplay addtions that modify the game to be more in-depth, challenging and above all else more "fun".
This game has a foundation, that is true, but its a foundation built around a particular design model. One that doesn't seem to be able to live up to its customers expectations. Now, expectations have to be managed, that is correct. But standards have been established in the industry and lets face it, STO doesn't meet those standards. Neither do a lot of the more recently released MMO's. But STO seems to be pushing the boundary on what an MMO can get away with, a little too much.
Also, so far the devs are unwilling to acknowledge the "hot topic" issues in these forums. Which is neither instilling faith into, or encouraging subscriptions from, their customers.
Whilst I agree that debates should always be conducted in a civilised and mature manner. They don't necessarily speed up the process of development. Simply because, history has shown that regardless of the customers wishes, devs have their own plans which are not necessarily the same.
NGE was a poor example on how to implement change in order to encourage a larger subscription base.
And it is not the only way to do it. Here's some reasons why I feel NGE failed on that score:
1) NGE implemented changes that the customers didn't want.
2) NGE was implemented too fast and thus its customerbase cancelled their subs, out of shock regarding the extent of the changes.
You cannot just introduce anything new without first "selling" it to your customer. You provide them with the justications and reasoning and LISTEN to the feedback before you implement anything.
When the decision has been made on WHAT to implement, you do it in stages in order to allow your customers to become accustomed to the changes. This can be done over the course of a few patches. Listening to the feedback as you do so. The duration of the implementation should neither be too short (i.e. 1 big patch that took 12 months to design) or too long.
Well, debate would be much more interesting if developers actually gave input in threads like this.
NOW you're getting closer to the truth. Devs often have their own design documents, but I think they often don't want to discuss the details for fear of causing more damage than they want, because such designs don't mimick what the customer base actually wants.. So they keep quiet.
Now, I'm not talking about ALL changes and modifications, just the extensive ones. I.E. the devs are happy (finally) to acknowledge and do something about the "auto-fire" issues. Mainly because the system is already in the game and therefore the modifications required are relatively small and don't affect the changes in the devs design document.
However, some of the "larger" issues e.g. Sector Space are not being acknowledged, which is probably because the devs would feel that an admittance that its not going to change would probably have a more negative effect than leaving the customerbase "believing" that some day it may change. So which is worse? Being honest and losing your customers or keeping them in the dark and eventually losing the customers anyway? The outcome is the same, however people respect honesty.
Now, many people have fallen for this "mushroom method" (kept in the dark and fed on ****) trick before. It has been tried a few times. But now people are spotting the warning signs much quicker due to their experiences with other MMOs. In other words, as time progresses, MMO devs are finding that they can get away with less and less. However, that isn't stopping them from trying to do so anyway.
In the end, failure to meet your customers needs or industry standards will ultimately bite you in the TRIBBLE.
Maybe It Would Even Help If We Stop Using The Term Troll In Such A Manner; You(Maybe not me) Are Grown and therefore should act as though you don't have to resort to name-calling(Using "troll" is name-calling) in the same manner as the people you Despise.
oh my poor young uninformed friend.
the term troll come from a forum of fishing called trolling. if were out fishing, you could say that we are out trolling. well Internet trolling is much the same, except for the fact that they are fishing for people, and not in the good biblical way. you seem my young friend they are here to cause trouble. they are fishing for negative energy so to speak. you see when they troll you or anyone else the one thing they want to see is you getting mad, and posting back at them. they normally use the same argument, or run around the topic until you get tired, and leave the thread. at that point they feel that they had won. so really calling someone a troll isn't really name calling but instead calling out their post style.
one last thing, look we know you're young so you see the internet as a good place, but it is not. the internet is filled with the scum of the earth. fact is you are going to get troll some day, and if you got a little bit mad at my first sentence then you have already been trolled. which I'm sorry for that, but I thought that would be the best way to give an example.
anyway I got to go because my next stop is up. also sorry for any misspells, posting on a blackberry is not the best way to go.
I agree with you. While 'trolls' can be annoying at times, limiting free speech is the path to ruin. Let them express themselves as best as they can and then respond to them differently. Perhaps they will catch on and change their manner of presentation.
Even if they don't, trolls should be allowed to speak.
This forum is no different from any other MMO forum. Furthermore, asking people to change simply doesnt work. If it did, dont you think the world would be a very different place? I commend you for your good intentions, but there are some things you can change in the world, and there are some you cant. The way people act on an MMO forum is one of the latter
that is not fully true, I agree with you some bit, but on the other hand there are trolls who are here to hate, disrupt, and harass the community. they do it for their own enjoyment. that is the type of troll I'm talking about.
I can think of a fair few "fanbois" that fall into the troll catagory. It goes both ways.
From what I have noticed on these forums, their are some problems with the way debate is carried out. I have a few suggestions to ANYONE that posts on these forums.
For those that have an issue with the game, it will help all involved to follow these guidelines:
When presenting Criticism, try to keep it CONSTRUCTIVE. After giving a review of a negative aspect of the game, it helps to add in some thoughts and ideas on how to improve the game; this allows the community to take your entire idea into account and therefore ponder how such a change would affect them. This allows an open discussion of your ideas and criticism, which helps to speed the process of other ideas and other Constructive Criticism.
For those that wholeheartedly support all aspects of the game:
Please, try not to dispel criticism; remember that without criticism there is no drive to improve aspects of the concept. If you do have an opposing idea with a criticism; present your response in the same manner as above: Present a criticism of the said critisicm, but also give ways in which the said criticism can be improved.
Remember that this game is in the early stages of development, so both Input AND Being Calm in the forums can truly help speed the process of development.
Even at 14 Years Old, I can Plainly See How Following These Steps Can Help All Aspects Of This Game.
- Barret_Beck
at 14 years of age I commend you, but your age shows. Not because you have said anything wrong, but you assume the people who post negative things dont(already) know everything that you have written. I can understand that you are using logic to dictate that some people are unaware of how to approach the/a subject and thus need some guidance.
The truith is some do need guidance but not he sort you'd find here! :P
but seriously your arguemnt precludes the idea that people a: dont care for constructive comments b: actually enjoy the drama etc c: love inciting rage in others d: are insecure and feel the need for attention..not to post anything of worth. e: feel they are better than all others and thus thier opinion is foremeost important.
im sure there is an f,g ,h & I etc...i am just being vague. the reason I say your age shows is not because you are doing anything wrong..it's the innocence of the post. IF ONLY a good talking to like the post you have made was all it took to make forums run fun and friendly beleive me it would already be happening.
Also dont forget hiding behind a computer gives people with certian "dispositions" the ability to say stuff they would never dare say normally as they have anonimoty to protect them.
on a forum as large as this it's always going to be a problem. The only answer is (IMHO) to ignore post's with those pretty obvious provocative titles..just ignore them and they dont get thier "attention" and it would take away the reactions alot of people are hoping for.
So at 14 you may feel you are more mature than many here.....in some ways you most definatley are..but a little niave too....dont get me wrong it's a healthy niave....it's how i still feell now it's the "why cant we all just get along " attitude which i support but have been dissapointed to find ..in the real world..we cant all just get along. But we can dull down the drama we get invloved in and we can pick when and where we spend our time better
I hope my post makes sense and doesn't offend you in any way
EDIT: The irony HERE is that star trek represents something to many of us..a better world a better way of thinking..and EVEN HERE it is not possible. People themselves have a LONG way to come. I have seen 48 year old bankers on here LOSING it big time.....we have a long long way to go before people as a whole are ready for the ideals set in star trek..thats why i find it crazy when people say the ideas in the show are dated! To this day we dont even know if utopia or altruism can even exist....so dated no.
I agree with you. While 'trolls' can be annoying at times, limiting free speech is the path to ruin. Let them express themselves as best as they can and then respond to them differently. Perhaps they will catch on and change their manner of presentation.
Even if they don't, trolls should be allowed to speak.
Comments
.
Progress not only takes time, but action that builds.
Whoops.... Grammar Error hehe
I'm going to tell you the truth. it will not work, because people have tried, even me. what we need is people to report and pressure the MODs to stop the trolls, when they are gone then there can be discussion. the best thing you can do is report trolls, and keep waiting for the game's garbage day.
stay the course fellow captain, and don't let the ignorant trolls get to you.
Well the problem is, I would like to avoid the limiting of "Trolls" at all costs. People need to remember that "Trolls" are merely people that have problems presenting criticism in a manner that is constructive.
No Trolls are people who have nothing constructive to say. People who hate the game or are negative do so by giving genuine feedback devoid of any name calling, insults and doom.
What? How dare you humanize these animals? I suppose next you'll be telling me that the world isn't flat or that there is no such thing as Santa!
that is not fully true, I agree with you some bit, but on the other hand there are trolls who are here to hate, disrupt, and harass the community. they do it for their own enjoyment. that is the type of troll I'm talking about.
The game isn't in the early stages of development, it has launched. That is the reality of the situation.
MMO's seldom change radically after launch. What you see is what you're getting. The gameplay mechanics in WoW, EQ2, and many others have largely gone unchanged since their launch. I'm not referring to expansions, bug fixes or performance. I'm talking about actual gameplay addtions that modify the game to be more in-depth, challenging and above all else more "fun". And so, if an MMO's gameplay is considered poor at launch, it is not likely to change radically enough in order to claw back the subs it lost.
This game has a foundation, that is true, but its a foundation built around a particular design model. One that doesn't seem to be able to live up to its customers expectations. Now, expectations have to be managed, that is correct. But standards have been established in the industry and lets face it, STO doesn't meet those standards. Neither do a lot of the more recently released MMO's. But STO seems to be pushing the boundary on what an MMO can get away with, a little too much.
Also, so far the devs are unwilling to acknowledge the "hot topic" issues in these forums. Which is neither instilling faith into, or encouraging subscriptions from, their customers.
Whilst I agree that debates should always be conducted in a civilised and mature manner. They don't necessarily speed up the process of development. Simply because, history has shown that regardless of the customers wishes, devs have their own plans which are not necessarily the same.
You brought up the term TROLL, we just explained what it means since you are confusing negative or unhappy people with being trolls.
One Word: NGE
This Is a good presentation of an Idea, Well Done
NGE was a poor example on how to implement change in order to encourage a larger subscription base.
And it is not the only way to do it. Here's some reasons why I feel NGE failed on that score:
1) NGE implemented changes that the customers didn't want.
2) NGE was implemented too fast and thus its customerbase cancelled their subs, out of shock regarding the extent of the changes.
You cannot just introduce anything new without first "selling" it to your customer. You provide them with the justications and reasoning and LISTEN to the feedback before you implement anything.
When the decision has been made on WHAT to implement, you do it in stages in order to allow your customers to become accustomed to the changes. This can be done over the course of a few patches. Listening to the feedback as you do so. The duration of the implementation should neither be too short (i.e. 1 big patch that took 12 months to design) or too long.
NOW you're getting closer to the truth. Devs often have their own design documents, but I think they often don't want to discuss the details for fear of causing more damage than they want, because such designs don't mimick what the customer base actually wants.. So they keep quiet.
Now, I'm not talking about ALL changes and modifications, just the extensive ones. I.E. the devs are happy (finally) to acknowledge and do something about the "auto-fire" issues. Mainly because the system is already in the game and therefore the modifications required are relatively small and don't affect the changes in the devs design document.
However, some of the "larger" issues e.g. Sector Space are not being acknowledged, which is probably because the devs would feel that an admittance that its not going to change would probably have a more negative effect than leaving the customerbase "believing" that some day it may change. So which is worse? Being honest and losing your customers or keeping them in the dark and eventually losing the customers anyway? The outcome is the same, however people respect honesty.
Now, many people have fallen for this "mushroom method" (kept in the dark and fed on ****) trick before. It has been tried a few times. But now people are spotting the warning signs much quicker due to their experiences with other MMOs. In other words, as time progresses, MMO devs are finding that they can get away with less and less. However, that isn't stopping them from trying to do so anyway.
In the end, failure to meet your customers needs or industry standards will ultimately bite you in the TRIBBLE.
LOL! :eek:
oh my poor young uninformed friend.
the term troll come from a forum of fishing called trolling. if were out fishing, you could say that we are out trolling. well Internet trolling is much the same, except for the fact that they are fishing for people, and not in the good biblical way. you seem my young friend they are here to cause trouble. they are fishing for negative energy so to speak. you see when they troll you or anyone else the one thing they want to see is you getting mad, and posting back at them. they normally use the same argument, or run around the topic until you get tired, and leave the thread. at that point they feel that they had won. so really calling someone a troll isn't really name calling but instead calling out their post style.
one last thing, look we know you're young so you see the internet as a good place, but it is not. the internet is filled with the scum of the earth. fact is you are going to get troll some day, and if you got a little bit mad at my first sentence then you have already been trolled. which I'm sorry for that, but I thought that would be the best way to give an example.
anyway I got to go because my next stop is up. also sorry for any misspells, posting on a blackberry is not the best way to go.
OUCH! That has to really hurt a large number of posters within this community at the moment - deeply. :cool:
Awesome post! You are a credit to yourself as well as your parents and teachers!
Even if they don't, trolls should be allowed to speak.
I can think of a fair few "fanbois" that fall into the troll catagory. It goes both ways.
at 14 years of age I commend you, but your age shows. Not because you have said anything wrong, but you assume the people who post negative things dont(already) know everything that you have written. I can understand that you are using logic to dictate that some people are unaware of how to approach the/a subject and thus need some guidance.
The truith is some do need guidance but not he sort you'd find here! :P
but seriously your arguemnt precludes the idea that people a: dont care for constructive comments b: actually enjoy the drama etc c: love inciting rage in others d: are insecure and feel the need for attention..not to post anything of worth. e: feel they are better than all others and thus thier opinion is foremeost important.
im sure there is an f,g ,h & I etc...i am just being vague. the reason I say your age shows is not because you are doing anything wrong..it's the innocence of the post. IF ONLY a good talking to like the post you have made was all it took to make forums run fun and friendly beleive me it would already be happening.
Also dont forget hiding behind a computer gives people with certian "dispositions" the ability to say stuff they would never dare say normally as they have anonimoty to protect them.
on a forum as large as this it's always going to be a problem. The only answer is (IMHO) to ignore post's with those pretty obvious provocative titles..just ignore them and they dont get thier "attention" and it would take away the reactions alot of people are hoping for.
So at 14 you may feel you are more mature than many here.....in some ways you most definatley are..but a little niave too....dont get me wrong it's a healthy niave....it's how i still feell now it's the "why cant we all just get along " attitude which i support but have been dissapointed to find ..in the real world..we cant all just get along. But we can dull down the drama we get invloved in and we can pick when and where we spend our time better
I hope my post makes sense and doesn't offend you in any way
EDIT: The irony HERE is that star trek represents something to many of us..a better world a better way of thinking..and EVEN HERE it is not possible. People themselves have a LONG way to come. I have seen 48 year old bankers on here LOSING it big time.....we have a long long way to go before people as a whole are ready for the ideals set in star trek..thats why i find it crazy when people say the ideas in the show are dated! To this day we dont even know if utopia or altruism can even exist....so dated no.
well said indeed