First off lemme say I'm a casual gamer and I dont play WoW, but I have played it and it didn't suit me. But I am a LT LoTRO member. STO is UNLIKE either, despite what many say. I don't see the resemblence.
Lots of pple complaining that players can reach cap really fast. Content and xp scaling aside, I think one of the biggest reasons that players can cap STO faster is the nature of travel and exploration.
WoW and Lotro start you off on foot, in a MASSIVE world that takes a LONG LONG time to get anywhere. Not only that, you don't even know all the map locations so you end up wandering around half the time just figuring where things are. If it wasn't for scenery (and I loved passing by lakes and mountains and seeing new areas) the travel would have been BORRRRING!!!! Having other players around MAY make it better, but at least half the play time is done just going from point A to B and save for random mobs on the way, there really isn't anything else to do.
Now, what STO is, may have been, and could possibly be.
- Having us NOT have all the locations available would just be silly. Starfleet knows them and so should you.
- Space is, dare I say, EMPTY. Not much to see except,well Space.
- If STO was an open world, that SPACE would be annoying.
BUT
- Sector Space, is WAY TOO small
- WARP travel (If you can even call it that) seems REALLY fast because of Sector Space
- Because you're limited to seeing the outside of your ship while traveling, it can get pretty boring if you had to wait too long to get from A to B.
Im not bashing this method nor am I supporting this, but I think the reason players are leveling fast, aside from the mission aspect, is because travel allows them to cross the ENTIRE map in just a little over an hour. It would take 4 times that much time to cross the LOTRO map, not to mention that if you're far under leveled you will be spanked hard.
I didn't play EVE or SWG so I don't know how their system works, but the way Cryptic designed their travel makes it easier to level faster.
Honestly, if they made it an open world Id be thrilled but I don't think it would've been possible with their engine. But I do believe that if they addressed the issues listed above AND worked on content/xp scaling AND ship interiors during travel, it would take players longer to level up.
The reason people can level that fast is because of the Defense missions, which i don't really understand since your skipping content in order to get a place that still has none.
It's fast for some people and not fast for others, just like WoW is fast for some people and not fast for others. If anything the leveling speed needs to be increased. People who push for the cap will hit it quick no matter what you do; that doesn't mean the rest of us have to suffer with a long grind.
WoW takes under a week 1-80. Probably around 48 hours of playtime, being modest.
Currently after 5 years yes. What was the time to get to 60 at launch? 3 months is about right.
To the point though. Its the poor design of repeatable content that makes leveling easy. Poor design and lack of content is the problem here. It doesn't help that they are trying to "fix" this after launch by breaking the game.
Currently after 5 years yes. What was the time to get to 60 at launch? 3 months is about right.
To the point though. Its the poor design of repeatable content that makes leveling easy. Poor design and lack of content is the problem here. It doesn't help that they are trying to "fix" this after launch by breaking the game.
Well, one thing fans and players need to decide is... To what extent STO competes with WoW or looks to it for inspiration, is it competing with old school WoW or modern WoW.
Personally, as someone who played WoW for years, I think every single patch marked an improvement and there is literally NOTHING about WoW that was better 4 years ago compared against the WoW of today. Every change was an improvement. Very little about the initial game was very good aside from potential and WotLK is not inferior to Vanilla WoW and is actually a masterpiece of improvements in every possible respect.
If I could erase the world's memory of Everquest and Vanilla WoW or at least any fond recollection or esteem held for those games, I think the MMO industry would be a MUCH better place.
To the OP, I think you have some good points. The MMO I just came from (Entropia Universe), the planet Calypso had a landmass that would take you about 10-12 hours to cross on foot. Of course once you had been to a certain teleporter, you could then use that teleporter to get to other TPs you'd found.
But even "teleport runs" just so people could move around were a big part of the game, and of course lots of beasties on the way.
This should be a lot different, as you're correct, we should know the positions of stars and systems already. It's a very tricky situation STO finds itself in, that will need to be managed over time.
Well, one thing fans and players need to decide is... To what extent STO competes with WoW or looks to it for inspiration, is it competing with old school WoW or modern WoW.
Personally, as someone who played WoW for years, I think every single patch marked an improvement and there is literally NOTHING about WoW that was better 4 years ago compared against the WoW of today. Every change was an improvement. Very little about the initial game was very good aside from potential and WotLK is not inferior to Vanilla WoW and is actually a masterpiece of improvements in every possible respect.
If I could erase the world's memory of Everquest and Vanilla WoW or at least any fond recollection or esteem held for those games, I think the MMO industry would be a MUCH better place.
I agree that my $15 can at this time be used for a recently release 80hr game or a 5 year old game with thousands of hours of gameplay. But you will never get a newly released MMO to compete with WoW as is now. I'm not looking it up but an article said for a new MMO to compete with WoW you need to spend either $100 million to a billion dollars. No reason to compare STO to WoW cause obviously they didn't dump the required money to compete.
I agree that my $15 can at this time be used for a recently release 80hr game or a 5 year old game with thousands of hours of gameplay. But you will never get a newly released MMO to compete with WoW as is now. I'm not looking it up but an article said for a new MMO to compete with WoW you need to spend either $100 million to a billion dollars. No reason to compare STO to WoW cause obviously they didn't dump the required money to compete.
I agree with this. I'm saying if you use WoW as a standard for comparison or a target to hit or an inspiration, you should be shooting for WoW of today in terms of things like length of time spent leveling, not aim to be like 5 year old WoW.
I agree that my $15 can at this time be used for a recently release 80hr game or a 5 year old game with thousands of hours of gameplay. But you will never get a newly released MMO to compete with WoW as is now. I'm not looking it up but an article said for a new MMO to compete with WoW you need to spend either $100 million to a billion dollars. No reason to compare STO to WoW cause obviously they didn't dump the required money to compete.
It's not really fair to compare any new MMO to WoW anyway since WoW has had 5 years to grow and mature into the juggernaut that it is now. No MMO 3 weeks into launch will ever be able to compete with it in terms of sheer content. However, if you compare it to vanilla WoW at it's release 5 years ago, that's a bit more fair as STO has launched in about the same state WoW did.
WoW was a pretty shallow game with little to no end game and any dedicated hardcore player could get from 1-60 in about two weeks. There was very little character customization, the talent (skills) system was unbalanced and narrow and the only reason to interact with other characters was to say, "LFG Maraudon" over and over again.
But it grew and matured and so will STO. Hopefully STO will grow in a different way though that doesn't rely on time sinks, massive raids that are a headache to organize, and the feeling that you're clocking in for your shift at work as opposed to playing a game.
WoW takes under a week 1-80. Probably around 48 hours of playtime, being modest.
if you use a strategy guide, follow it to the letter, never do ANYTHING besides what the guide
tells you to...for maximum advancement...and only with certain classes.
It's not really fair to compare any new MMO to WoW anyway since WoW has had 5 years to grow and mature into the juggernaut that it is now. No MMO 3 weeks into launch will ever be able to compete with it in terms of sheer content. However, if you compare it to vanilla WoW at it's release 5 years ago, that's a bit more fair as STO has launched in about the same state WoW did.
WoW was a pretty shallow game with little to no end game and any dedicated hardcore player could get from 1-60 in about two weeks. There was very little character customization, the talent (skills) system was unbalanced and narrow and the only reason to interact with other characters was to say, "LFG Maraudon" over and over again.
But it grew and matured and so will STO. Hopefully STO will grow in a different way though that doesn't rely on time sinks, massive raids that are a headache to organize, and the feeling that you're clocking in for your shift at work as opposed to playing a game.
Actually its perfectly fair to compare any MMO to WoW, because as was mentioned earlier, excluding the additional content in the expansions and bug fixes, the gameplay of WoW has gone largely unchanged since launch. WoW was already recognised by the industry as a potential juggernaut at launch. It was only the playerbase that grew further.
Yes WoW had server issues and bugs, but ALL of the necessary content to keep an *average player amused through the levels for a REASONABLE amount of time was in at launch. Molten Core was in at launch but Onyxia was introduced a month or two later. If you don't believe me, check their patch notes.
Yes, there will be players who blow through content faster than the *average player, just like there will be players who are slower, but so long as devs aim for implementing a volume of gameplay at is sufficient for the average players gameplay time and encourages them to subscribe, then you are likely to appease the majority audience. Devs will never appease everyone, but they SHOULD try to appease enough of a majority to keep the population at a healthy level. Unfortunately at this time, STO doesn't have enough gameplay to promote a subscription from an average player.
* When I use the term "average" player I'm referring to what the industry itself has established as average: one that plays on average 21-22 hours per week, just after launch (3 hours per day). STO doesn't fulfill these requirements because they claim it has 80 hours of gameplay and yet those of us whos gameplay time comes close to the average find we've hit max level in 2 weeks. Is that rushing? No. That's a lack of content covered over by massive xp boosts per mission.
The problem with the industry today is that things have changed since WoWs launch. WoW had far less competition to deal with and standards were much lower. Unfortunately for those that came after it, WoW reset that standard. However, many fail to meet those standards.
In short
Its not a case of how quickly content can be blown through in the fastest time possible that matters.
What DOES matter is how quickly the AVERAGE player will blow through that content.
And the simple fact is that the amount of content currently in STO isn't sufficient to encourage the average player to continue subscribing after the first "free" month. The reasons for this can largely be attributed to the combinations of large chunks of xp gained per mission (due to insufficient quantity of missions) coupled with a lack of depth and variety in the missions which could slow progression down.
After what the OP wrote got me thinking , other than sector defence ships wandering round , which you can for the most part avoid if you want to, there are no random battles ie a BoP decloaking right in your path for a small battle , not a fleet action, this would slow down travel time a bit
After what the OP wrote got me thinking , other than sector defence ships wandering round , which you can for the most part avoid if you want to, there are no random battles ie a BoP decloaking right in your path for a small battle , not a fleet action, this would slow down travel time a bit
Theres a lot of different things that could help slow the rate of progression down. Here's some crude examples:
Increase Sector Space size / travel time by 50%. Spread things out a bit more to remove the feeling that you're in a tiny box.
Reduce the xp obtained per mission, and insert more missions to cover the "gaps" that are caused by the xp reduction.
Increase the amount that needs to be killed / scanned in each mission. Instead of 5, have 10 but decrease the xp gain / kill so that the total remains the same.
Increase the depth of gameplay in each mission ("minigames") thus increasing the time to complete each mission.
Include "courier" missions in the game which involve more travelling. Remember when the Enterprise had to ferry refugees in the series and Generations film?
These are just a few. Each one on its own may seem boring and excessive, but a little of each can have a dramatic effect on the overall rate of progression.
Well, one thing fans and players need to decide is... To what extent STO competes with WoW or looks to it for inspiration, is it competing with old school WoW or modern WoW.
Personally, as someone who played WoW for years, I think every single patch marked an improvement and there is literally NOTHING about WoW that was better 4 years ago compared against the WoW of today. Every change was an improvement. Very little about the initial game was very good aside from potential and WotLK is not inferior to Vanilla WoW and is actually a masterpiece of improvements in every possible respect.
If I could erase the world's memory of Everquest and Vanilla WoW or at least any fond recollection or esteem held for those games, I think the MMO industry would be a MUCH better place.
You might not think Vanilla WoW was best due to your lack of or poor experiences back then, but for people like me who had a kinda set clique of people whom I've played many games before with, it couldn't of been more fun in a new environment like that. I remember some of the ridiculously stupid/nasty conversations we'd have on vent while farming MC and BWL on Agamaggan while being #1 guild horde side, the hilarious mistakes people would make, and the verbal bashing that would go on afterward. I remember my entire guild hazing new recruits with the most ****ed up ****, just to see how bad they really want in. Never ceased to amaze how much people will go through just to be able to ride your coattails.
I remember how my guild being #1 horde on Agamaggan, became friends with the #1 alliance guild, and their main dwarf priest would randomly roll up to our guild while we're mid world boss, and just chill with us, or come in our vent. There was respect back then, no one dared attack him since they knew our best players liked him. I remember helping that guild open the gates to AQ, and the #2 Horde guild trying to stop them, only to find that same Dwarf priest mind controlling them, and my guild beating the living **** out of them. The tears and cries of "Traitors!" made me laugh a whole lot. Rofl. Good times.
I remember the shame when after terrorizing that #2 horde guild's Ysondre kill, by having one of our officers expose armor the boss (so the tank can't sunder to build threat,) I challenged one of their warlocks on my warrior in an open duel for both my guild and theirs to watch, and lost by RNG. Basically he conflagged me the exact moment I executed him, and even though I saw the damage pop first, he got ruled the winner by the game. Try to explain that **** to a crowd of 40 people around you. All I got was "WHAAAAA? YOU DON'T CHALLENGE THEM AND LOSE, WTF?! YOU MADE US LOOK BAD! GOD DAMN"
I remember this one TRIBBLE on Emerald Dream alliance side who put himself in the hospital once my guild came to the server and dominated the Grand Marshal line from 1-14. He couldn't keep up with our people so he started popping caffeine pills like crazy. Lol. So sad. There's just way too many pleasant memories back then. I'd have to actually recollect it all for the entire remainder of the day to get it all on here.
Hey, guess what? This game will never have any memorable moments like that...EVER *GASP*
Comments
Currently after 5 years yes. What was the time to get to 60 at launch? 3 months is about right.
To the point though. Its the poor design of repeatable content that makes leveling easy. Poor design and lack of content is the problem here. It doesn't help that they are trying to "fix" this after launch by breaking the game.
Well, one thing fans and players need to decide is... To what extent STO competes with WoW or looks to it for inspiration, is it competing with old school WoW or modern WoW.
Personally, as someone who played WoW for years, I think every single patch marked an improvement and there is literally NOTHING about WoW that was better 4 years ago compared against the WoW of today. Every change was an improvement. Very little about the initial game was very good aside from potential and WotLK is not inferior to Vanilla WoW and is actually a masterpiece of improvements in every possible respect.
If I could erase the world's memory of Everquest and Vanilla WoW or at least any fond recollection or esteem held for those games, I think the MMO industry would be a MUCH better place.
But even "teleport runs" just so people could move around were a big part of the game, and of course lots of beasties on the way.
This should be a lot different, as you're correct, we should know the positions of stars and systems already. It's a very tricky situation STO finds itself in, that will need to be managed over time.
I agree that my $15 can at this time be used for a recently release 80hr game or a 5 year old game with thousands of hours of gameplay. But you will never get a newly released MMO to compete with WoW as is now. I'm not looking it up but an article said for a new MMO to compete with WoW you need to spend either $100 million to a billion dollars. No reason to compare STO to WoW cause obviously they didn't dump the required money to compete.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169679
I agree with this. I'm saying if you use WoW as a standard for comparison or a target to hit or an inspiration, you should be shooting for WoW of today in terms of things like length of time spent leveling, not aim to be like 5 year old WoW.
And competition is the key to inovation. STO doesn't need to compete directly with STO but the standards should at least be on par.
I loved WoW. I axed my membership last November after 4 years.
But they need to make STO more difficult.
It's not really fair to compare any new MMO to WoW anyway since WoW has had 5 years to grow and mature into the juggernaut that it is now. No MMO 3 weeks into launch will ever be able to compete with it in terms of sheer content. However, if you compare it to vanilla WoW at it's release 5 years ago, that's a bit more fair as STO has launched in about the same state WoW did.
WoW was a pretty shallow game with little to no end game and any dedicated hardcore player could get from 1-60 in about two weeks. There was very little character customization, the talent (skills) system was unbalanced and narrow and the only reason to interact with other characters was to say, "LFG Maraudon" over and over again.
But it grew and matured and so will STO. Hopefully STO will grow in a different way though that doesn't rely on time sinks, massive raids that are a headache to organize, and the feeling that you're clocking in for your shift at work as opposed to playing a game.
So true. Regards STO I have just got Captain but tbh I have only put in a hour a day or so.
if you use a strategy guide, follow it to the letter, never do ANYTHING besides what the guide
tells you to...for maximum advancement...and only with certain classes.
hardly being modest
Actually its perfectly fair to compare any MMO to WoW, because as was mentioned earlier, excluding the additional content in the expansions and bug fixes, the gameplay of WoW has gone largely unchanged since launch. WoW was already recognised by the industry as a potential juggernaut at launch. It was only the playerbase that grew further.
Yes WoW had server issues and bugs, but ALL of the necessary content to keep an *average player amused through the levels for a REASONABLE amount of time was in at launch. Molten Core was in at launch but Onyxia was introduced a month or two later. If you don't believe me, check their patch notes.
Yes, there will be players who blow through content faster than the *average player, just like there will be players who are slower, but so long as devs aim for implementing a volume of gameplay at is sufficient for the average players gameplay time and encourages them to subscribe, then you are likely to appease the majority audience. Devs will never appease everyone, but they SHOULD try to appease enough of a majority to keep the population at a healthy level. Unfortunately at this time, STO doesn't have enough gameplay to promote a subscription from an average player.
* When I use the term "average" player I'm referring to what the industry itself has established as average: one that plays on average 21-22 hours per week, just after launch (3 hours per day). STO doesn't fulfill these requirements because they claim it has 80 hours of gameplay and yet those of us whos gameplay time comes close to the average find we've hit max level in 2 weeks. Is that rushing? No. That's a lack of content covered over by massive xp boosts per mission.
The problem with the industry today is that things have changed since WoWs launch. WoW had far less competition to deal with and standards were much lower. Unfortunately for those that came after it, WoW reset that standard. However, many fail to meet those standards.
In short
Its not a case of how quickly content can be blown through in the fastest time possible that matters.
What DOES matter is how quickly the AVERAGE player will blow through that content.
And the simple fact is that the amount of content currently in STO isn't sufficient to encourage the average player to continue subscribing after the first "free" month. The reasons for this can largely be attributed to the combinations of large chunks of xp gained per mission (due to insufficient quantity of missions) coupled with a lack of depth and variety in the missions which could slow progression down.
Theres a lot of different things that could help slow the rate of progression down. Here's some crude examples:
- Increase Sector Space size / travel time by 50%. Spread things out a bit more to remove the feeling that you're in a tiny box.
- Reduce the xp obtained per mission, and insert more missions to cover the "gaps" that are caused by the xp reduction.
- Increase the amount that needs to be killed / scanned in each mission. Instead of 5, have 10 but decrease the xp gain / kill so that the total remains the same.
- Increase the depth of gameplay in each mission ("minigames") thus increasing the time to complete each mission.
- Include "courier" missions in the game which involve more travelling. Remember when the Enterprise had to ferry refugees in the series and Generations film?
These are just a few. Each one on its own may seem boring and excessive, but a little of each can have a dramatic effect on the overall rate of progression.You might not think Vanilla WoW was best due to your lack of or poor experiences back then, but for people like me who had a kinda set clique of people whom I've played many games before with, it couldn't of been more fun in a new environment like that. I remember some of the ridiculously stupid/nasty conversations we'd have on vent while farming MC and BWL on Agamaggan while being #1 guild horde side, the hilarious mistakes people would make, and the verbal bashing that would go on afterward. I remember my entire guild hazing new recruits with the most ****ed up ****, just to see how bad they really want in. Never ceased to amaze how much people will go through just to be able to ride your coattails.
I remember how my guild being #1 horde on Agamaggan, became friends with the #1 alliance guild, and their main dwarf priest would randomly roll up to our guild while we're mid world boss, and just chill with us, or come in our vent. There was respect back then, no one dared attack him since they knew our best players liked him. I remember helping that guild open the gates to AQ, and the #2 Horde guild trying to stop them, only to find that same Dwarf priest mind controlling them, and my guild beating the living **** out of them. The tears and cries of "Traitors!" made me laugh a whole lot. Rofl. Good times.
I remember the shame when after terrorizing that #2 horde guild's Ysondre kill, by having one of our officers expose armor the boss (so the tank can't sunder to build threat,) I challenged one of their warlocks on my warrior in an open duel for both my guild and theirs to watch, and lost by RNG. Basically he conflagged me the exact moment I executed him, and even though I saw the damage pop first, he got ruled the winner by the game. Try to explain that **** to a crowd of 40 people around you. All I got was "WHAAAAA? YOU DON'T CHALLENGE THEM AND LOSE, WTF?! YOU MADE US LOOK BAD! GOD DAMN"
I remember this one TRIBBLE on Emerald Dream alliance side who put himself in the hospital once my guild came to the server and dominated the Grand Marshal line from 1-14. He couldn't keep up with our people so he started popping caffeine pills like crazy. Lol. So sad. There's just way too many pleasant memories back then. I'd have to actually recollect it all for the entire remainder of the day to get it all on here.
Hey, guess what? This game will never have any memorable moments like that...EVER *GASP*