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STO and its faults

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
This isn't another STO bashing thread, it's an attempt at constructive feedback with the hopes of engaging others to reply with their own perspective on things so that Cryptic can take pointers of where to improve things to make STO the game we all know it has the potential to be. Since Klingon's are all about PvP a lot of what I'm going to say doesn't apply to them.

Leveling:

It's ridiculous that inside a month you can reach the end-game of an MMO. I don't have expereince with other MMOs, other than Eve Online (which has no end-game) so I can't really draw direct comparisons, all I can say is that from a logical standpoint, it doesn't incentivise long term subscription which to me seems a flawed business plan.

Here's how I think this could be improved:
  • Longer story missions. They're currently too short, too generic and too short. As an example, I am Admiral level and just did Cage of Fire in a Star Cruiser. Despite the terrible path finding being unable to find its way accross the catwalks, the entire mission took me fifteen minutes. If I'd done it in my Fleet Escort and the pathfinder wasn't broken, I'd have done it in under ten. My reward for this was 508 skill points. This mission is available at Captain levels.
  • Increase the skill points needed between grades. Increase the amount needed for each subsequent Rank. Afterall, if it was this easy, there'd be no Ensigns and all Admirals in Starfleet.
  • Reduce the skill points awarded by X each time you die. This not only slows down rank progression but also implements a reasonable death penalty.
  • Increase the mission's difficulty. Increase the number of enemies and/or increase their ranking. Make the AI act like a player (yes, this can be done).

Ground Missions:

As they stand now, ground missions are fundementally broken. Your AI away team members' pathfinder is shocking, AI tactics are non existant with enemies just standing there and being shot. Sure they shoot at you but most of them, unlike you and your team, don't have personal shields or body armour. In addition, the use of cover is non existant since you can shoot through solid objects. Worst of all, it's just boring and repetative.

Here's how to improve them:
  • Increase the ranking/difficulty of enemies on the ground.
  • Increase the size of the maps and introduce more varied terrain types.
  • AI enemy use of tactics. The idea of a squad of enemies not four meters away from the squad you're engaging not getting involved is patently ridiculous.
  • Allow all AI enemies to wear personal shields and body armour ranked against your own.
  • Allow the use of cover for both sides, i.e. cover protects you from weapon fire but still allows for grenades to be lobbed over.
  • Implement way point ability for AI Team members which will allow you to use more tactics such as basic flanking.
  • Get rid of a timed Pause and allow for these orders to be given in paused system. Many games have been using this for years now.
  • Please stop characters from bouncing off the walls and doing 8 meter jumps. This is Star Trek, not a Jackie Chan movie.
  • This is purely asthetic but please can you make civilians wear civilian clothing and not military uniforms.

Ships:

Currently, I see the ship classes as being wholly skewed. If Escorts have the fire power and Science have the shields, what exactly does a Cruiser have? Their description says they generate lots of excess power which can be used for weapons but this is untrue since they need EPS consoles to keep weapon power high enough to do any reasonable damage. They can't turn fast enough (buffs, consoles and tractor beams aside) to bring torps to bear so you're reliant on beams. Also, who's idea was it to make Science ships the tanks? Have you never watched a Star Trek episode? Science ships don't tank, Cruisers do.

Here's my suggestions:
  • I've been flying a Star Cruiser lately and with two turn Consoles, it turns quite reasonably but this allows me only to use two EPS consoles which isn't enough to keep my weapon power up (I'm a Tactical Officer). Give Cruiers the ability to keep weapn power high without the need for mulitiple EPS. which will allow those of us who think they turn like a Sloth swimming in a Molasses fit the turn rate consoles (I forget their name) which solves that particular problem. Increase their shields from 100% currently, to 125% so they become the tanks.
  • Science ships shouldn't be tankers, they should be on the edge of weapons range applying buffs and de-buffs to Allies and Enemies. Give them natural bonuses to Science ability cool downs but decrease their shields from 125% currently, to 100% as a trade off.

Misc:
  • Many descriptions are misleading and/or confusing. They need clarifying as to what exactly they do.
  • Ground Weapons: Phasers are common weapons, Plasma are uncommon weapons, Disrupters and Tetryon are rare and Poloron are very rare. Why? Again, let's have some variety here and have uncommon, rare and very rare of all weapon types.

I know this is long but for those of you who are too lazy to read it and will ask for a TL;DR version, here it is:

Dear Cryptic, please fix STO because it's currently broken. Thank you.

Seriously though, I hope Cyrptic will look at this and I also hope others will contribute to the debate. I await your replies with a flame proof suit :p
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    In before the fanboys :p


    I wouldn't change the exp gain yet, the missions are so frustratingly unoriginal and samey that making people do them for longer would cause more people to walk out. If you had to see the same message telling you to clear the Klingons from orbit and beam down to the station 20 times before you gained a promotion would anyone really stick with it?

    A selection of different missions would help. Something to differentiate between a Sci/Eng/Tac officer for a start. Maybe I need to go to Starbase 24 and carry out some urgent repairs (Eng), or analyse a poentially dangerous new phenomenon before a native population gets killed (sci). Maybe as a tac officer I'll be sent to infiltrate and destroy a Klingon base wihtout being detected.
    Different types of missions on the different fronts, set up around the fighting styles and cultires of the enemies I'm fighting. Klingons and Romulans have a different outlook on war, so why do the missions always start and end the same? Some missions where I don't need to hammer the space bar as fast as I can. There's so much that can be done with the Star Trek IP.


    I'm not expecting a single player RPG quest experience with multiple choices for quests, the fact that it's MMO limits things somewhat in that respect. But right now things so far seem to be:

    SPACE
    Fight X squadrons of [enemy]
    Fight X squadrons of [enemy] plus a battleship

    GROUND
    Scan 5 things.
    Kill all of the [enemy] on the surface. Might be combined with hitting F a few times.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I've covered some of my thoughts in various places on these forums but I want to say I appreciate the thought and consideration put into your post.

    If I could sum up my biggest "want" it would be sidegames. Reputation. Alternate playstyles. Creating holodeck missions. Mini-games. Alternate ways to play. (Ie. I'd honestly do 10 levels just on the ground, the faults of ground combat aside, just to try something different. Put in a duckblind like the one in "Insurrection" and put me to work leveling on a Pre-Warp planet without ever setting foot on a starship. I'd dig seeing some world mobs and what amounts to a fleet action loaded with questgivers, emulating the feel of a zone in most fantasy MMOs.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    SirDixie wrote: »
    I wouldn't change the exp gain yet, the missions are so frustratingly unoriginal and samey that making people do them for longer would cause more people to walk out.

    I completely agree which is why the two should go hand in hand. I'd also suggest more twists, turns and morale quandaries in the story plots as well as multiple paths to completion with potential consequences and follow ons further down the line.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I wouldn't mind lowering the leveling speed, but only if that comes with a corresponding amount of new episode content. Otherwise I'm going to have to do a lot more exploration missions to fill in the gaps.

    One of the big reasons I passed up on Champions Online was because there simply wasn't enough content for me. Although there is theoretically just enough content to get by, that includes styles of missions I don't want to do. In STO, I can easily skip the mission styles I don't like (PvP, fleet actions). Stretch the leveling out without adding equivalent episodes, and my enjoyment would drop quite a bit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Mirai wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind lowering the leveling speed, but only if that comes with a corresponding amount of new episode content. Otherwise I'm going to have to do a lot more exploration missions to fill in the gaps..
    I'd like this as well, at a little longer to level and more choice of episodes along the way, I'd have loved a 2nd ongoing story-arc specific to each career as well. Not likely to happen I know but it'd make leveling alts more attractive (not that i need much encouragement to make alts) I'd like more varied missions as well but mmo's always seem to draw on the same short list of missions types just with different dressing
    SirDixie wrote: »
    In before the fanboys :p
    I assume the poster meant this as a joke because of the :P, but this term and it's mirror "hater" seem to be thrown around a lot and often used to troll or flame. While not directly part of the game the forum community is a key part for many people, and it's atmosphere can carry over into the game as well. Personally i think both sides of the name calling, fanboi and hater etc need to be clearly stated as not welcome
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    There seems to be some confusion around my points on leveling so allow me to clarify.

    Currenrly, all missions follow the same pattern: Go to system and engage orbiting ships. Beam down to planet and work your way through several rooms (including when outside) and kill groups of enemy then beam up to ship and leave. Sometimes there's variety by the way of scanning a particular thing whilst killing the enemies and engaging more ships before leaving the system. In these cases, variety certainly isn't the spice of life and longer missions of this sort would be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of people.

    What I'm suggesting is longer missions that are more varied, involve puzzel solving, more dialog with multiple paths to success each involving different endings with potential consequences further down the line. Here's an example:

    Missio A:

    Captain Proton warps into a system to investigate reports of a hidden Klingon base and is immediately attacked by decloaking Bird's of Prey. He destroys these and beams down to the planet which contains a pre-warp civilisation. He's presented with a choice.

    1. Does he go straight to the base?
    2. Does he roam off piste and talk to the locals?

    Route 1

    He choses option 1. and encounters very heavy resistance. Wondering why this is he finds the base has a new kind of Ship Torpoedo capable of severally damaging Federation ships. Our hero defeats the Klingon guards, plants spaital charges on the Torps and beams out where he's attacked by Klingon reinforcements which are duely defeated before he warps out of the system. He recieves his reward of 300 SP and a nice rare personal sheild.

    In a later mission, he finds out that the base was actually developing a new Super Weapon and he is to engage in fleet action to stop the Klingons from using it on Planet X for which you'll recieve 100 SP.

    Route 2:

    He choses option 2 and Captain Proton, being the cunning hero he is, beams down and decides to roam off piste, finding a villiage of locals to talk to, who tell him about a super secret back enterence into the hidden underground part of the base. Going this route he finds it lightly guarded and quickly dispatches the sentries and enters. Now he has to access various computers but to do so, he has to draw away the Scientists/Guards in each room so they don't lock him out of the computer. So he's presented with two choices.

    Option 1: He engages the Scientest/Guards where upon doing so, he's immediately presented with a 60 second countdown which is how long he has to clear the room before the data is wiped.

    Option 2: He locates an unguarded room that has another computer which sets off Anastezine gas that renders all the guards unconcious. He enteres each, accesses the information but then an alarm goes off and is told in the dialogue that they've found the dead guards at the rear enterence and scans now show a force field blocking that exit point meaning you've got to fight your way out. So you set your charges, you inplant your virus to wipe the research and you fight your way out. You beam up to the ship which is engaged with Klingon reinforcements which you defeat and you leave and you're rewarded with 400 SP and a Stealth module. As a result of your destroying the Super Weapon research, you never recieve the fleet action mission in the future.

    But wait, there was even a third option:

    Route 3:

    You beam down alone, talk to the locals, find the back door, and see it's lightly guarded.

    Option 1: You're a Tactical Officer so you activate the Stealth kit you just so happened to fit before you left and you sneak in.
    Option 2: You're a Science Officer so you trap the guards in a Temporal distortion so time passes slowly for them, allowing you to sneak in.
    Option 3: You're an Engineering Officer so you set up a Holographic projector which creates an image to draw the guards away leaving you free to sneak in.

    You follow the same path progression as route 2 but because you sneaked in rather than killing the guards, you're free to sneak out again. Base goes boom, Super Weapon research goes BSOD and you're awarded 400 sp and a nice Very Rare Weapon. As a result of your destroying the Super Weapon research, you never recieve the fleet action mission in the future.

    One mission, multiple routes to success, choice of how you play the game (do I choose a Shooter or do I go with a Stealth 'em up?), with the total amount of skill points being equal regardless of which route you take and if you chose to go off piste, the mission is actualy longer than normal, which slows down player progression (you might be able to fit one or two of these in an evening session). Best of all, this can be achieved with the current engine. It just requies a little more creative story telling and that is what STO has the potential for from a Federation Character perspective.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Saladinbob wrote: »
    There seems to be some confusion around my points on leveling so allow me to clarify.

    Currenrly, all missions follow the same pattern: Go to system and engage orbiting ships. Beam down to planet and work your way through several rooms (including when outside) and kill groups of enemy then beam up to ship and leave. Sometimes there's variety by the way of scanning a particular thing whilst killing the enemies and engaging more ships before leaving the system. In these cases, variety certainly isn't the spice of life and longer missions of this sort would be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of people.

    What I'm suggesting is longer missions that are more varied, involve puzzel solving, more dialog with multiple paths to success each involving different endings with potential consequences further down the line. Here's an example:

    Missio A:

    Captain Proton warps into a system to investigate reports of a hidden Klingon base and is immediately attacked by decloaking Bird's of Prey. He destroys these and beams down to the planet which contains a pre-warp civilisation. He's presented with a choice.

    1. Does he go straight to the base?
    2. Does he roam off piste and talk to the locals?

    Route 1

    He choses option 1. and encounters very heavy resistance. Wondering why this is he finds the base has a new kind of Ship Torpoedo capable of severally damaging Federation ships. Our hero defeats the Klingon guards, plants spaital charges on the Torps and beams out where he's attacked by Klingon reinforcements which are duely defeated before he warps out of the system. He recieves his reward of 300 SP and a nice rare personal sheild.

    In a later mission, he finds out that the base was actually developing a new Super Weapon and he is to engage in fleet action to stop the Klingons from using it on Planet X for which you'll recieve 100 SP.

    Route 2:

    He choses option 2 and Captain Proton, being the cunning hero he is, beams down and decides to roam off piste, finding a villiage of locals to talk to, who tell him about a super secret back enterence into the hidden underground part of the base. Going this route he finds it lightly guarded and quickly dispatches the sentries and enters. Now he has to access various computers but to do so, he has to draw away the Scientists/Guards in each room so they don't lock him out of the computer. So he's presented with two choices.

    Option 1: He engages the Scientest/Guards where upon doing so, he's immediately presented with a 60 second countdown which is how long he has to clear the room before the data is wiped.

    Option 2: He locates an unguarded room that has another computer which sets off Anastezine gas that renders all the guards unconcious. He enteres each, accesses the information but then an alarm goes off and is told in the dialogue that they've found the dead guards at the rear enterence and scans now show a force field blocking that exit point meaning you've got to fight your way out. So you set your charges, you inplant your virus to wipe the research and you fight your way out. You beam up to the ship which is engaged with Klingon reinforcements which you defeat and you leave and you're rewarded with 400 SP and a Stealth module. As a result of your destroying the Super Weapon research, you never recieve the fleet action mission in the future.

    But wait, there was even a third option:

    Route 3:

    You beam down alone, talk to the locals, find the back door, and see it's lightly guarded.

    Option 1: You're a Tactical Officer so you activate the Stealth kit you just so happened to fit before you left and you sneak in.
    Option 2: You're a Science Officer so you trap the guards in a Temporal distortion so time passes slowly for them, allowing you to sneak in.
    Option 3: You're an Engineering Officer so you set up a Holographic projector which creates an image to draw the guards away leaving you free to sneak in.

    You follow the same path progression as route 2 but because you sneaked in rather than killing the guards, you're free to sneak out again. Base goes boom, Super Weapon research goes BSOD and you're awarded 400 sp and a nice Very Rare Weapon. As a result of your destroying the Super Weapon research, you never recieve the fleet action mission in the future.

    One mission, multiple routes to success, choice of how you play the game (do I choose a Shooter or do I go with a Stealth 'em up?), with the total amount of skill points being equal regardless of which route you take and if you chose to go off piste, the mission is actualy longer than normal, which slows down player progression (you might be able to fit one or two of these in an evening session). Best of all, this can be achieved with the current engine. It just requies a little more creative story telling and that is what STO has the potential for from a Federation Character perspective.


    That's what I'd love to see. I realise that it would be a lot of work for the devs, but if they really want the game to stand out in today's marketplace then they need (IMO) stuff like that. Something that the devs, and players, can point to and state that it's a major selling point compared to all the other games out there.

    As an eng officer I should have a different way to do the same mission as a tac officer, as well as missions geared towards my career choice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    EVE is a real bad example to use. I'm a three year vet from EVE, so I know of which I speak.

    I've also played a lot of other MMOs, and STO is no worse then their current iterations.

    My current list, for those curious:
    SWG from one month after launch through the NGE
    WoW from Patch 10 through Burning Crusade.
    EQ2 for about six months after launch
    Matrix Online: after the move to SOE
    Pirates of the Burning Sea: about two months a year ago.
    Entropia Universe: Off and on for about a year.
    EVE Online: Revelations 2 through my accounts lapsing last night.

    NGE Star Wars Galaxies is very similar to STO, except that it has five years of legacy content to revamp into its one track advancement for its two factions to build on. In fact, the only difference between NGE SWG and STO is that STO is about half as long (level 1 to 45 as opposed to level 1 to 90) and actually has some of the elements that old school SWG had that people liked about character leveling (customizable skill tree advancement).

    STO compared to WoW is like comparing the favored son (WoW) to the ******* step-child. WoW is very much in the same vein of linear advancement, with the advantage of having multiple tracks of linear advancement to follow. It would be the STO equivalent of Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and the other races having their own individual quest lines to progress through. Maybe an idea to look into a couple years down the line, but for now, rather unweildy right now. And in WoW, the polished 800 pound gorilla, STO's advancement to endgame is nearly identical. You can max out a WoW toon in about three weeks, if you put your mind to it, then its onto the rat race and the Gear Grind.

    If there's a game that's truly STOs spiritual ancestor, its PotBS. It shares a LOT of similar elements in gameplay, both strengths and weaknesses. As for advancement, STO is a lot quicker than POTBS, but a lot less repetitive. Personally, I think STO could do with a little repetitiveness. I liked Patrol Missions, and wouldn't mind seeing repeatable versions of them added at some point.


    For those raising issues of Pet AI Pathfinding....I was a Creature Handler in SWG for a LONG time, and despite YEARS of work, and dozens of patches, AI pathing was always a major bugaboo. This is nothing unique to STO by a long shot, so give them a little slack here. Even if it improves, you can bet it will never be perfect.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Saladinbob wrote: »
    I completely agree which is why the two should go hand in hand. I'd also suggest more twists, turns and morale quandaries in the story plots as well as multiple paths to completion with potential consequences and follow ons further down the line.

    THIS is what is missing ". I'd also suggest more twists, turns and morale quandaries in the story plots as well as multiple paths to completion with potential consequences and follow ons further down the line"

    that was put really nicely and it struck a chord with me....hehe where is the annoying prime directive t complicate things when ya need it :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JanuHull wrote: »
    EVE is a real bad example to use. I'm a three year vet from EVE, so I know of which I speak.

    Congratulations. I'm a seven year vet myself but had you read what I said correctly, you'd realise I haven't compared Eve to STO in any way, shape or form.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Saladinbob wrote: »
    Congratulations. I'm a seven year vet myself but had you read what I said correctly, you'd realise I haven't compared Eve to STO in any way, shape or form.

    nice, not to mention "i know of which I speak" ?? we gone shakespear here now? :P
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    QE2 wrote:
    nice, not to mention "i know of which I speak" ?? we gone shakespear here now? :P

    Yes, well, let's concentrate on STO, please :)

    I can't believe there's so many posts complaining of this, that and the other being broke not to mention a lack of content and only three people have an opinion on my ideas? This post is designed to help Cryptic so come on, let's help them get the game right.
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