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The Unsolvable Problem of Star Trek Online

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
When you get down to it, every single MMO out there is a repetitive grind. STO included. The trick is disguising that grind. How do other MMO's do this? I'll use WoW as an example. You start as a level 1 human in a bright, beautiful forest. You encounter various mob types such as bandits, murlocks, gnolls, kobolds, wolves & bears. Around level 10 you move onto the next zone. A barren, almost desert like farmland. The enviroment changes & the mobs your fighting change. This continues on all the way up to the level cap.

In STO & perhaps all Space MMO's the enviroments don't change. Sure, you might have a nebula in the distance or an asteroid field but do you even notice it? If I showed you screens of the first zone you entered as a Lt, then Lt. Cmdr & then Cmdr could you tell the difference? And how many times did the mobs you were fighting change. Klingons, Romulans, Remans? Fighters, birds of prey, medium sized, warbirds & big TRIBBLE dreadnaughts.

Five models per the faction your fighting and your fighting that faction over and over and over before moving onto the next. Perhaps I've forgotten a type but still, that's not very many. Especially when each time your fighting them your fighting them in the same enviroment.

So I've just cancelled my subscription. Odd that this happened the moment I hit Cmdr and unlocked my latest Science ship/ball... This game just feels like pure grinding to me and I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Odd, OP, as this is the first MMO that DOESN'T feel like a grind to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Personally I'm going to wait until the 45 day patch. After investing the last year looking forward to this game, I think its abit early to be writing it off!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Odd, OP, as this is the first MMO that DOESN'T feel like a grind to me.

    /agreed

    No grind here. I find the story lines a lot of fun and the working to included many of the shows story elements or legacies in the missions extremely enjoyable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Odd, OP, as this is the first MMO that DOESN'T feel like a grind to me.

    Really? Your doing similiar missions repeatedly to get levels to get a bigger ship to do missions against a different faction to get levels to get a bigger ship.
    saint100 wrote: »
    Personally I'm going to wait until the 45 day patch. After investing the last year looking forward to this game, I think its abit early to be writing it off!

    That's fair enough, I've only been interested in this game since Bioware announced TOR wouldn't be along until 2011.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The stories are pretty good but for me the key will be Exploration. If they can really pack it with the variety it deserves, mission types, graphic and audio world creation elements, and mini-games then we've totally sidestepped the whole "grind" as grind and gotten into something singleplayer games have known for a long time - randomization, when done well, keeps a game young.

    There's a reason folks out there still play X-Com and Civilization or why The Sims is so huge.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    This is another one of those 1000 post forum crashes that has a single answer that makes all other answers moot. All MMOs do what you say.

    However, there is a point where you are wrong. In addition to 120 ships with unique characteristics, there are 60 different ground models with unique characteristics. And although a person who thinks gaming begins and ends with button mashing may not recognize it, each faction has a unique way of fighting it, and each ship if you are fighting at 0 or +1 and do not have a total twink ship, has a challenge. Mogai Escorts fly like mad things, if they get to your 6 you are done for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Really? Your doing similiar missions repeatedly to get levels to get a bigger ship to do missions against a different faction to get levels to get a bigger ship.

    It can be argued that it is, in actuality, a grind. However, IMO, it doesn't feel like it at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The best quote for Star Trek Online is :

    "In addition to being terrific entertainment, STAR TREK may attribute its longevity and popularity to its optimistic vision of a future in which humankind not only prospers, but has also fostered a world of peace and equality for all -- certainly a desirable and uplifting outlook."

    or :

    "Kill Them All... God Will Recognize His Own" ?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The problem isn't that mmos have endgames that feel like grinds.
    The problem is with players who play non-stop had hit endgame in an insane amount of time, then expect companies to cater to their needs. TRIBBLE that. Cater to those of use who play at reasonable rates (a couple evenings a week).

    Good riddance to those of you who burn out in 2 weeks. You are the type of customers that mmo developers should NOT care about IMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Really? Your doing similiar missions repeatedly to get levels to get a bigger ship to do missions against a different faction to get levels to get a bigger ship.


    Please... There is no real grinding in STO if you wanna see a real grind try Aion out...I don't call grinding getting a quarter of your level per mission...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Really? Your doing similiar missions repeatedly to get levels to get a bigger ship to do missions against a different faction to get levels to get a bigger ship.

    Merely explaining HOW it's a grind does nothing. Since even you agree that all MMOs are grinds. Your original post was talking about if it FELT like a grind. And it doesn't for him.
    And not as much for me either.'

    Maybe you should have done more pvp in between missions. Or not tried to do all 3 DSE back to back.
    It's all in how a person plays the game, not what the game is.

    Hell, people used to play with a tin can and a stick all day. Aren't you glad we now have computer games to entertain us?
    You seem to be intent with making the game entertain you, rather than entertaining yourself with the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    When you get down to it, every single MMO out there is a repetitive grind. STO included. The trick is disguising that grind. How do other MMO's do this? I'll use WoW as an example. You start as a level 1 human in a bright, beautiful forest. You encounter various mob types such as bandits, murlocks, gnolls, kobolds, wolves & bears. Around level 10 you move onto the next zone. A barren, almost desert like farmland. The enviroment changes & the mobs your fighting change. This continues on all the way up to the level cap.

    In STO & perhaps all Space MMO's the enviroments don't change. Sure, you might have a nebula in the distance or an asteroid field but do you even notice it? If I showed you screens of the first zone you entered as a Lt, then Lt. Cmdr & then Cmdr could you tell the difference? And how many times did the mobs you were fighting change. Klingons, Romulans, Remans? Fighters, birds of prey, medium sized, warbirds & big TRIBBLE dreadnaughts.

    Five models per the faction your fighting and your fighting that faction over and over and over before moving onto the next. Perhaps I've forgotten a type but still, that's not very many. Especially when each time your fighting them your fighting them in the same enviroment.

    So I've just cancelled my subscription. Odd that this happened the moment I hit Cmdr and unlocked my latest Science ship/ball... This game just feels like pure grinding to me and I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

    I had this same thought myself.

    I bet if you have worlds to explore instead of mini maps and creatures instead of all humanoids, that might help with the ground fighting a lot. Did i say ground fighting, i meant "ground adventuring".

    As for space, that is where we seem to have most of the fun, but it does seem all the same, so you need epic adventures that you can CHOOSE what to do.

    Lastly, how about letting us visit earth, or mars. Put some depth in the non combat area of the game. Let us duel. Let us fly off into unknown space and get lost.

    Anyway... back to grinding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Check here for some light at the end of the tunnel. This thread by Leviathian99 has some dev response and is actually supported by players with opposing points of view. A rarity in this day and age.

    Not to mention its one of the most fabulous ideas to improve gameplay anyone has posted to date.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Battleunit wrote: »
    This is another one of those 1000 post forum crashes that has a single answer that makes all other answers moot. All MMOs do what you say.

    However, there is a point where you are wrong. In addition to 120 ships with unique characteristics, there are 60 different ground models with unique characteristics. And although a person who thinks gaming begins and ends with button mashing may not recognize it, each faction has a unique way of fighting it, and each ship if you are fighting at 0 or +1 and do not have a total twink ship, has a challenge. Mogai Escorts fly like mad things, if they get to your 6 you are done for.

    I didn't mention the ground side of things because I find everything about the ground combat a complete failure, unlike the space combat which I have enjoyed very much. I find 120 ships with unique characteristics a surprising number but I'll take your word for it. I have only just hit Cmdr afterall but the problem for me was of those 120 ship types, I was fighting the same 5 for a rather long time. Except for perhaps a random faction in a mission every now and then.

    I'll give you that about Mogai Escorts though. I was pleasently surprised to see the mobs actually doing something different. Though I've not often seen them take advantage of their speed except when you jump into a deep space encounter surrounded by them and a flag ship. :p
    It can be argued that it is, in actuality, a grind. However, IMO, it doesn't feel like it at all.

    Fair enough.
    Thradar wrote: »
    The problem isn't that mmos have endgames that feel like grinds.
    The problem is with players who play non-stop had hit endgame in an insane amount of time, then expect companies to cater to their needs. TRIBBLE that. Cater to those of use who play at reasonable rates (a couple evenings a week).

    Good riddance to those of you who burn out in 2 weeks. You are the type of customers that mmo developers should NOT care about IMO.

    I played WoW for 5 years off an on and will probably return for Cataclysm. I think I am the type of customer MMO devs should care about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Like once a very intelligent guy said 'its not grind if you are having fun'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wow disguises the grind?

    :eek: :Rofl:

    Don't feel any grind here. Never have.. unless you count the "one more bar until I can get my defiant... please please go fast"

    Wow is grindtasticly grindy. Its grind has a grind. If they're disguising a grind, it is meerly by placing a sign written in crayon on it saying "There is no grind, move along"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    "Grind" is a massively subjective thing that varies from individual to individual. What one person will find to be too grindy isn't grindy enough for someone else. There's no such thing as the right amount of grind for everyone; just the right amount for someone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Battleunit wrote: »
    This is another one of those 1000 post forum crashes that has a single answer that makes all other answers moot. All MMOs do what you say.

    However, there is a point where you are wrong. In addition to 120 ships with unique characteristics, there are 60 different ground models with unique characteristics. And although a person who thinks gaming begins and ends with button mashing may not recognize it, each faction has a unique way of fighting it, and each ship if you are fighting at 0 or +1 and do not have a total twink ship, has a challenge. Mogai Escorts fly like mad things, if they get to your 6 you are done for.

    I disagree on the challenge part. I have fought +3 enemies in a non twink ship with pathetic random placed skills and found it simple.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    So I've just cancelled my subscription. Odd that this happened the moment I hit Cmdr and unlocked my latest Science ship/ball... This game just feels like pure grinding to me and I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

    You could look at life the same way. It's nothing but the same thing day in and day out. Get up, go to work, come home, go to bed. Your work at the same thing day in and day out. You read the same words over and over. Think the same thoughts. Breathe the same air.

    I guess it all boils down to how you view your experience and how much you allow your own mind to involve yourself in the experience. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    It can be argued that it is, in actuality, a grind. However, IMO, it doesn't feel like it at all.

    That could be because

    a. the leveling is quick
    b. there are really no timesinks other then sector space that isnt that bad
    c. you pretty much are always jumped right into the action
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thradar wrote: »
    The problem isn't that mmos have endgames that feel like grinds.
    The problem is with players who play non-stop had hit endgame in an insane amount of time, then expect companies to cater to their needs. TRIBBLE that. Cater to those of use who play at reasonable rates (a couple evenings a week).

    Good riddance to those of you who burn out in 2 weeks. You are the type of customers that mmo developers should NOT care about IMO.

    You should read this: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=1850970&postcount=46
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Battleunit wrote: »
    This is another one of those 1000 post forum crashes that has a single answer that makes all other answers moot. All MMOs do what you say.

    However, there is a point where you are wrong. In addition to 120 ships with unique characteristics, there are 60 different ground models with unique characteristics. And although a person who thinks gaming begins and ends with button mashing may not recognize it, each faction has a unique way of fighting it, and each ship if you are fighting at 0 or +1 and do not have a total twink ship, has a challenge. Mogai Escorts fly like mad things, if they get to your 6 you are done for.

    If you hit them with viral matrix, tractor beam, or even jam sensors (the AI controlled ships don't seem to know what to do when you use jam sensors so they just sit and do nothing, it's like a hold on them), then they stop. I run with all of these skills so killing them is never a problem. In fact, I'm usually able to kill most single ships without them attacking me for more than a couple seconds. Maybe this is why when I read people saying the game gets harder I cannot see how. Are you guys running with tachyon beam as a science skill or something? Two of these three skills or level 1 skills, so they're not hard to come by.

    Oh, and props to the OP for disguising his I quit post until the end. He probably got more people to read it that way lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Please... There is no real grinding in STO if you wanna see a real grind try Aion out...I don't call grinding getting a quarter of your level per mission...

    I don't consider the 'levels' to be worthy of the name. Where's the reward factor at the end of each one? A new ability? Not often. The only real reward I ever got was at the end of one rank and the start of another. A brand new ship, new abilties, more weapons. That's another problem I think, although this one is solvable. The sense of progression and reward is really only tuned for once every 10 or 11 levels which is a pretty long time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think some players have been conditioned to feel that way but I'm okay with it really. My rewards are incremental but they're there every time I buy up my character skills, or improve a BO, trade in exploration points for some gear I want. I really don't feel like I need a huge pat on the back and a gigantic present under the Christmas tree all the time. Once every Rank is good enough for me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Odd, OP, as this is the first MMO that DOESN'T feel like a grind to me.

    Please stop posting? I've been looking at the forums recently because I have reached the level cap and completed all the content in the game. I for one am in these posts because these people have legitimate problems with the game and ALL you do is rebuttal them with fanboy remarks. everyone has their opinions but these people do not share the same views as you, and I'm sure are not looking to change their minds. I for one thought this was a huge grind, changing only scenery; every mission was the same - kill, collect... and also since the subject has been brought up here, one thing for sure is that i had a lot more variety in WoW's launch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Odd, OP, as this is the first MMO that DOESN'T feel like a grind to me.

    I am not much of an MMO layer outside STO and have never been....
    But I don't really feel the 'grind' either, its all exciting and different for me.

    Each battle is unique, each environment is different....

    And for the record... I hate those **** mogai class ships.
    Especially in groups. *shudders*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thradar wrote: »
    The problem isn't that mmos have endgames that feel like grinds.
    The problem is with players who play non-stop had hit endgame in an insane amount of time, then expect companies to cater to their needs. TRIBBLE that. Cater to those of use who play at reasonable rates (a couple evenings a week).

    Good riddance to those of you who burn out in 2 weeks. You are the type of customers that mmo developers should NOT care about IMO.


    I have to agree because they just end up stop playing. I also think trying to go through the game in a week or two takes all the fun out of it and means you have no life. I love gaming, but their is more to life then gaming 24/7.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I don't consider the 'levels' to be worthy of the name. Where's the reward factor at the end of each one? A new ability? Not often. The only real reward I ever got was at the end of one rank and the start of another. A brand new ship, new abilties, more weapons. That's another problem I think, although this one is solvable. The sense of progression and reward is really only tuned for once every 10 or 11 levels which is a pretty long time.

    If you want to be rewarded for doing nothing more than what you're supposed to be doing over the course of the game, I suggest you stop playing MMO's and play Mario Party.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I don't particularly feel this is a grind yet, but I can see myself growing tired more quickly than I did with WoW. As the OP said, reaching new zones and fighting new enemies was one of the best incentives to advance in WoW...but I suppose we have ships here which achieve a similar thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ill post what I think about it. For me its not that its a grind. Its that it is repetitive. Yes I know "all MMO's are". This game has a major difference though. There is nothing to do in between to break up the monotony. In example another MMO is... I could go craft for hours.... I could go harvest for hours... I could go decorate my house... i could go visit other houses to see how they decorated... I could dungeon hop... etc etc... here it never changes. There is nothing else to do.

    I dont care if you want to flame and pick this apart but this is how I feel.
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