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SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Killing babies...
Bar Massacres...
Holographic Prostitution...
Shapeshifter making me kill an entire research facility?
Shoot first ask questions later... (Kirk-ish I suppose, but every officer in Starfleet?)

I feel this content would be appropriate in a GTA title; no, I have no problem with it in any other game... save Cooking Mama and Mario -- but Star Trek was not this dark (with the exception of mind-TRIBBLE in Nemesis).

I cancelled my lifetime sub for other reasons (mostly how Cryptic is handling the game, more than the game itself); however, my plan is to check back during the 45 day patch and monitor how the game changes via forum feedback until then (at least someone does, eh?). It would be nice to see World War III Online become STO with the new content.

I understand this is a time of war.

I understand action is needed in gaming.

It's just way out of the Star Trek context, back when the most intense moments in the series could be done without action.

Here's an idea...

Describe this game without mentioning the following:

1. The IP itself.
2. Any names.
3. Any faction names.
4. Any ship names/classes.
5,Any location names.

Does it still feel like Star Trek?

Just something to consider.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well personally... I understand that the stories veer away from what might typically be presumed to be Star Trek stories. But frankly, yes it does feel like Star Trek.

    If you were a fan of the later series, such as DS9 and Enterprise, you'd know that there was a secret organization within or outside of Starfleet, that was called Section 31.

    People in this outfit did things that were not usually acceptable by Starfleet terms, but then again so did Starfleet itself.

    Remember Starfleet planning to kidnap 600 people and steal their planet from them? Remember Starfleet once again forcing descendants of Native Americans to move from their chosen homeworld? How about Starfleet nearly forcing Data to submit for deconstruction and "death"? Or maybe allowing sentient holograms to be forced into slave labor?

    Groups like the Maquis specifically formed to counter acts by the Federation that they felt were intolerable.

    Not sure about the killing babies part, haven't been there, can't help you. (EDIT: They're Jem Ha'dar, they attain life and serve through death. You fulfilled thier destiny.)

    But in the bar, I recall a bunch of bar patrons hauling out rifles and starting to shoot me and my crew. They also appeared to be crazed, because it wasn't like I was dropping them in one shot. I was taking quite a few shots to incapacitate each one. Yet they kept firing. It isn't like they offered to surrender, and started calling for help, and I kept shooting.

    They kept firing at me and my crew until they stopped moving.

    Did I kill them? Well, the story didn't say so either way. The assumption might be that I killed them, but is it so hard for you to imagine that you stunned them, in much the same way that we disable some of the ships in the missions without being able to destroy them?

    Should Cryptic change them a bit so that when those NPCs in the bar are incapacitated, they lie there on the floor permanently with a zero indicator like the disabled ships do in the missions? I think I would agree with that.

    But those are easy tweaks, and attention to VERY fine details, and it's obvious Cryptic had to triage this to get it out according to Atari's terms.

    That being said, yes there are some crazy things being done, but the Undine aren't exactly a common threat, and aren't necessarily playing by the rules.

    And remember, they have already said they are working on diplomacy options and ways to complete these missions without shooting.

    Yes, it's Star Trek. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    TeeDge wrote: »
    Here's an idea...

    Describe this game without mentioning the following:

    1. The IP itself.
    2. Any names.
    3. Any faction names.
    4. Any ship names/classes.
    5,Any location names.

    Does it still feel like Star Trek?

    Just something to consider.

    Here's another idea. Try describing the 2009 Star Trek movie without using 1-5 above. Does it sound like Star Trek? This game is more Star Trek than "J.J. Trek" is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Here's another idea. Try describing the 2009 Star Trek movie without using 1-5 above. Does it sound like Star Trek? This game is more Star Trek than "J.J. Trek" is.

    Yep, that movie was trash. It was pretty much like every other action flick.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Here's another idea. Try describing the 2009 Star Trek movie without using 1-5 above. Does it sound like Star Trek? This game is more Star Trek than "J.J. Trek" is.

    Very good point.


    after seeing that crappy movie, I was afraid this game was going to be way too influenced by it.

    luckily, this game feels more like real trek than that, although it still has some things to overcome for sure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    i love the missions. i dont see a problem at all
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    it is as "star treky" as any other star trek game...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I signed on to do missions that would make me feel like a Starfleet Officer, but I spend all my time in the sonic shower trying to get the blood off my hands...
    ...but it just... won't... come... off.

    I'm still monthly. Haven't been in in a bit though. Kinda half scared as to what I'll find. My wife doesn't like it when I start scolding my computer... (she thinks I'm craaaazy)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Star Trek stopped being all lovey-dovey with the Dominion War.

    Actually, things started to become a lot more grim when they began fleshing out the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship.

    A scene that got to me the most was when Riker was forced to vaporize a woman who's only mission in life was completing the annihilation of a rival faction. Another rough one was Archer having to choose to steal warp engine components from another ship in The Expanse (leaving that ship stranded) so his crew could have a hope of completing their mission and preventing genocide.


    There are missions where you have to mediate a conflict or you're performing humanitarian tasks and are forced to defend yourself, but no one mentions those. Heck, everyone just drops the "Aid Planet" quests because in Starfleet, we can't be bothered to carry emergency supplies in our holds.

    I just don't understand why people are still hung up on this. Our culture has changed from Roddenberry's time and our entertainment has changed accordingly.

    If you think they could sell a game where you fly around in heavily armed and armored ships waving a white flag while all the aliens you meet want to conquer you, assimilate you, seek vengeance on you, hunt you, use your ships and/or bodies for decoration, you should probably think again.

    If it helps you sleep, just imagine that the time it takes for you to get in range is spent hailing the enemy ship and imploring them to seek a peaceful resolution. Or an enemy's HP bar is actually your stun setting and they won't back off after being shot a few dozen times.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    TeeDge wrote: »
    Killing babies...
    Bar Massacres...
    Holographic Prostitution...
    Shapeshifter making me kill an entire research facility?
    Shoot first ask questions later... (Kirk-ish I suppose, but every officer in Starfleet?)

    1. Jem'Hadar are not people, and you didn't have to fight them. when you and you're best friend are in the same squad, and you're assigned to the front to fight the jem'hadar. now when you see you're friend get's his head blow off, then you come back to me and tell me how you fell about the jem'hadar. I think they all need to be wiped out, every last one of them

    2. my phasers were set on stun, and they were beamed to my ship to be held, and charged.

    3. vulcan love slave enough said.

    4. I was following orders, and they were shooting back.

    5. good enough for kirk good enough for me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    S.Bowser wrote:
    If you think they could sell a game where you fly around in heavily armed and armored ships waving a white flag while all the aliens you meet want to conquer you, assimilate you, seek vengeance on you, hunt you, use your ships and/or bodies for decoration, you should probably think again.


    I think the LEAST they could do would be to give you a skill called "Diplomacy" or "Offer forgiveness" that allows you to get other ships to stop firing at you. Maybe it would deaggro them. (not sure how this could be applied to missions though, with stories and all)



    They could do a few other not-TOO-hard to implement fixes that would help give the gamer the CHOICE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Kuber wrote:
    Well personally... I understand that the stories veer away from what might typically be presumed to be Star Trek stories. But frankly, yes it does feel like Star Trek.

    If you were a fan of the later series, such as DS9 and Enterprise, you'd know that there was a secret organization within or outside of Starfleet, that was called Section 31.

    People in this outfit did things that were not usually acceptable by Starfleet terms, but then again so did Starfleet itself.

    Remember Starfleet planning to kidnap 600 people and steal their planet from them? Remember Starfleet once again forcing descendants of Native Americans to move from their chosen homeworld? How about Starfleet nearly forcing Data to submit for deconstruction and "death"? Or maybe allowing sentient holograms to be forced into slave labor?

    Groups like the Maquis specifically formed to counter acts by the Federation that they felt were intolerable.

    Not sure about the killing babies part, haven't been there, can't help you. (EDIT: They're Jem Ha'dar, they attain life and serve through death. You fulfilled thier destiny.)

    But in the bar, I recall a bunch of bar patrons hauling out rifles and starting to shoot me and my crew. They also appeared to be crazed, because it wasn't like I was dropping them in one shot. I was taking quite a few shots to incapacitate each one. Yet they kept firing. It isn't like they offered to surrender, and started calling for help, and I kept shooting.

    They kept firing at me and my crew until they stopped moving.

    Did I kill them? Well, the story didn't say so either way. The assumption might be that I killed them, but is it so hard for you to imagine that you stunned them, in much the same way that we disable some of the ships in the missions without being able to destroy them?

    Should Cryptic change them a bit so that when those NPCs in the bar are incapacitated, they lie there on the floor permanently with a zero indicator like the disabled ships do in the missions? I think I would agree with that.

    But those are easy tweaks, and attention to VERY fine details, and it's obvious Cryptic had to triage this to get it out according to Atari's terms.

    That being said, yes there are some crazy things being done, but the Undine aren't exactly a common threat, and aren't necessarily playing by the rules.

    And remember, they have already said they are working on diplomacy options and ways to complete these missions without shooting.

    Yes, it's Star Trek. :)

    Oh I don't know, some of those patrons that I vaporized are almost certainly dead :p

    It was my choice to vaporize them though, but apparently I'm a blood thirsty Jem'hadar baby killer too :p (ok, ok, lets not bring that discussion up again. the last one got locked)

    I think the "feel" of trek is just fine for me. I'm not (usually) a hardcore dress-in-a-fed-uniform-with-spock-ears kind of fan. I understand that the enterprise, in all it's iterations, as well as DS9 and voyager and the like are "Vehicles" only in the sense that they are vehicles for a story. The trek mythos is constantly evolving, through those stories. If EVERY day of EVERY year of EVERY century in the trek universe is the same diplomatic drudgery, the IP wouldn't have stretched across as many series as it did. The trek universe has good people and bad, sometimes those bad people are in the federation. Sometimes those good people are klingons. the trek universe has times of war, times of peace, times of tentative adherence to shaky treaties. It's dynamic, but more importantly, it's not there to be our reality so much as it is there to be a vision of what could be. A setting for our stories and for all the federation's goodness, it has a dark seamy underbelly full of dirty grungy shady characters that are as much a part of the story as the good morally upstanding guys.

    The story, as it is, is set in 2409. well past anything in TV canon. You find the barfight morally reprehensible? Then avoid using exploit attacks on exposed enemies and add a supplemental log after the mission saying you had to stun a bar full of angry patrons. Point being, make your own story. it's what the universe is there for. Me? I'll vaporize everyone I can :) but in trek, my characters morality is a little more open to interpretation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    S.Bowser wrote:
    I just don't understand why people are still hung up on this.

    It's because some people aren't happy unless they have something to b**** about. Of course when you point out that the flaws in their arguments they dismiss you as a fanboy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    1. Jem'Hadar are not people, and you didn't have to fight them. when you and you're best friend are in the same squad, and you're assigned to the front to fight the jem'hadar. now when you see you're friend get's his head blow off, then you come back to me and tell me how you fell about the jem'hadar. I think they all need to be wiped out, every last one of them

    Genocide is like, not cool man...
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    2. my phasers were set on stun, and they were beamed to my ship to be held, and charged.

    But why were they attacking me and not the Ferengi... I wasn't the one with the rigged dabo table and the leaky radiation pipes.

    Also, my phasers tend to vaporize people.
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    3. vulcan love slave enough said.

    Yeah that's um... that was his point.
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    4. I was following orders, and they were shooting back.

    Of course they were shooting, 5 heavily armed starfleet officers invaded their space and beemed into their station...
    ...also, weren't you a little conscerned when you found no weapons and your search of the enemy base's computer showed that they were researching ways to detect Udine infiltrators??

    I was. because I wasn't spamming fffff like it was my space bar.
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    5. good enough for kirk good enough for me.

    Even Kirk had an "Open Hailing Frequencies" button. He even used it sometimes...
    ...I wish I had an "Open Hailing Frequencies" button. I'd play with it every day and call him sparky.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think, ever since Wolf 359, when the Borg wiped out over 39 ships of Star Fleet, they changed their tune with combat. Now they arn't taking chances anymore!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    darmak wrote:
    Genocide is like, not cool man...



    But why were they attacking me and not the Ferengi... I wasn't the one with the rigged dabo table and the leaky radiation pipes.

    Also, my phasers tend to vaporize people.



    Yeah that's um... that was his point.



    Of course they were shooting, 5 heavily armed starfleet officers invaded their space and beemed into their station...
    ...also, weren't you a little conscerned when you found no weapons and your search of the enemy base's computer showed that they were researching ways to detect Udine infiltrators??

    I was. because I wasn't spamming fffff like it was my space bar.



    Even Kirk had an "Open Hailing Frequencies" button. He even used it sometimes...
    ...I wish I had an "Open Hailing Frequencies" button. I'd play with it every day and call him sparky.

    1. did you fight them? if you did then you would know what I'm talking about. they wanted to kill us all. if it was you're friend or child they would have kill them in a heart beat. ( I'm RPing )

    2. some of the smugglers had items on then that didn't react well with phaser fire. it's sad, but they had it coming for smuggling that junk.

    3. Vulcan Love Slave is Canon

    4. romie hide stuff well. they would have no problem hiding weapons of mass destruction with medical supply's, and weapon research can be research along medical research. most medical research comes from the horrors of war. example Dr. Crell Moset

    5. and I never fire until fired on. ( really that is what I do in game )
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well at least the holodeck prostitutes are pretty canon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think Jackelope posted on the forums a while ago saying "We hear you! We're working on adding a diplomacy system into the game right now but it's going to take a while to develop and implement!"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    S.Bowser wrote:
    Star Trek stopped being all lovey-dovey with the Dominion War.

    Actually, things started to become a lot more grim when they began fleshing out the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship.

    A scene that got to me the most was when Riker was forced to vaporize a woman who's only mission in life was completing the annihilation of a rival faction. Another rough one was Archer having to choose to steal warp engine components from another ship in The Expanse (leaving that ship stranded) so his crew could have a hope of completing their mission and preventing genocide.


    There are missions where you have to mediate a conflict or you're performing humanitarian tasks and are forced to defend yourself, but no one mentions those. Heck, everyone just drops the "Aid Planet" quests because in Starfleet, we can't be bothered to carry emergency supplies in our holds.

    I just don't understand why people are still hung up on this. Our culture has changed from Roddenberry's time and our entertainment has changed accordingly.

    If you think they could sell a game where you fly around in heavily armed and armored ships waving a white flag while all the aliens you meet want to conquer you, assimilate you, seek vengeance on you, hunt you, use your ships and/or bodies for decoration, you should probably think again.

    If it helps you sleep, just imagine that the time it takes for you to get in range is spent hailing the enemy ship and imploring them to seek a peaceful resolution. Or an enemy's HP bar is actually your stun setting and they won't back off after being shot a few dozen times.

    I wanna marry this post. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:

    Dammit it's canon, not cannon! It's a holonovel, not a big freakin gun
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dammit it's canon, not cannon! It's a holonovel, not a big freakin gun

    lol my bad. sorry for that. canon. I will double my efforts to check next time. and vulcan love slaves is what I call my phasers, and those are cannons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Its an MMO, killing is what you do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits here too.

    First, STO is a combat game first and foremost. Although the DEVs have promised to add a diplomacy system down the line, right now all we have is combat and breaks from combat (point-and-click scan missions).

    This was a design decision, because the current gaming market -- particularly the MMO industry -- revolves around combat. With that said, the DEVs needed a way to justify combat in the Star Trek universe.

    I agree that some of the in-game justifications for combat are thinner than the plots/dialogue for TRIBBLE films. (Such as, 'the enemy is violating OUR Prime Directive so we must stop them!')

    I agree that, within the context of -all- of Star Trek, this game feels like it is in the minority of the trend toward peace.

    What I disagree with is the statement that it is not Star Trek at all. STO feels very much like TOS to me, which was based on action in a time of war (both cold and hot).

    STO seems to return Star Trek to its origins, and I expect it will also show its players the development of Star Trek toward peace as new player factions and a diplomacy system are introduced further into the development cycle.

    I have been a Star Trek fan for many years, and I am massively enjoying STO because it is new. Every new Star Trek TV series that aired found similar difficulties with attracting the fan base because they each did what the previous series had not done, and fans can be very resistant to change. I did enjoy them all, although some I liked less than others.

    That said, when I want something more like what was already done in Star Trek, I turn to a game based on the shows, like 'Star Trek 25th Anniversary', 'Judgment Rites', or 'A Final Unity'.

    I do hope and expect that Cryptic will make their in-game plots -- and justifications for actions -- more believable. I'll stick around to see if it happens.

    Hope to see you around the galaxy. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I agree whole-heartedly with the first two responses in this thread.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Here's another idea. Try describing the 2009 Star Trek movie without using 1-5 above. Does it sound like Star Trek? This game is more Star Trek than "J.J. Trek" is.

    I don't remember JJ Trek characters murdering babies and doctors, but I watched it only once.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    nevermind, double post
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Is STO Star Trek-ish? Yes.

    Is it Gene Roddenbery-ish? No.

    The only trek that the Great Bird of the Galaxy really approved of was ‘the Cage,’ TMP, and the first 2 seasons of TNG.

    The rest of Trek was not so much about a quasi-utopian future with no money, no individuality, and everyone is happy.

    If GR had his way, TOS, the films other than TMP, and everything post season 2 of TNG would never have happened, and if that were the case, Trek would have sucked big time, and would have no more relevance today than ‘Lost in Space.’

    Is STO perfect? No not by a long shot… but neither was TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, or the films… all had there moments of excellence, and all sucked at times. Yet they were all Trek… yes even JJ’s Trek was Trek…

    So if you want a game set in a ‘perfect’ utopian world… get over it… that game would really really suck.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    mjcrawford wrote: »
    So if you want a game set in a ‘perfect’ utopian world… get over it… that game would really really suck.

    All I ask is the right to choose. I can see two ways to do it easily.

    1) The simple way

    We just need two skills : "disable ship" and "stun for good", I don't care if the opponent just vanishes instead of staying down. Also, give an accolade to those who kill a lot, it is war, each playstyle should be rewarded.

    Advantages :

    * This would stop the "Federation is evil" threads
    * This would help the immersion for the diplomat / Picard players
    * A new perk is always good for those who plays hours and hours
    * This would give the option to the more warlike federation officers to get rewarded too, this is woooar after all
    * It takes almost no dev time, THINK OF THAT CRYPTIC, almost no dev time to please MANY players !

    2) A much more powerful and complex system suggested by Leviathan99

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=110953
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    When I can slag a planet surface with quantums then people can get uppity about genocide. Until then, it's all academic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Delazure wrote: »

    2) A much more powerful and complex system suggested by Leviathan99

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=110953

    I have a bone to pick with you.

    so I clicked you're link in you're sig, and that song has been stuck in my head playing non stop. it's a good song.:D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Delazure wrote: »
    All I ask is the right to choose...


    I agree with you...

    I have said on multiple occasions that the game lacks any real choice, I posted in the thread in my signature (the first one) the following:
    Mjcrawford wrote:

    What might be more interesting, might be just a simple sit-rep (for those that don’t get it, that is a situation report) like, “Captain, there is a freighter under attack by what appears to be a Klingon Bird of Prey… orders?”

    Now you have a couple of choices… you could simply charge in Phasers-a-blazing and take out the BoP or you could hail the enemy ship and attempt to convince them to leave, you could simply move your ship into a position between the enemy and the freighter to see if the enemy is willing to engage you or let the freighter go, you could engage the BoP and when the freighter warps out, you could disengage to try to foster peace, you could extend your shields around the freighter until it warps out, You could attempt to capture the BoP buy attacking until it’s shields are down and beaming over security forces. Now all of the sudden, instead of one, I just came up with 6 possible endings to the encounter… all of which could have different results, and earn you different bonuses. And that is just one kind of encounter… do this for each type of encounter already in the game and you exponentially increase the depth of the game.

    My issue is with those that say that this game is not ST... not that this game is perfect as is...
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