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Easy Respec and Why it Shouldn't Exist in STO

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
First off I'd like to start this post asking those that do post to do so in a debate style, if you want respec state your reasoning why, if you don't also state why. If you agree with someone else's views that is great and it can save some typing.

The reason I believe repsec didn't exist at launch:

STO uses a skills spent system to assign your rank, if you respec and reset all those skill points you would change rank, and that doesn't make sense. In the last section I list solutions and address this current issue.

Why I don't want to see repsec's in STO:

1) In every MMO game imbalances are serious issues, and are further complicated when there is a PvP portion to the game. Allowing easy repsec makes it vastly more difficult to balance anything. Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill. This is counterproductive, the dev team needs data logs and performance info to tweak said skill but when everyone gets rid of it they can't get reliable info. As a result of the flawed data they devs make changes that will most likely be too much or still not enough, which of course results in a still unused skill or everyone changes to the new version thus starting a spiral of consist and unnecessary changes.

2) Min/Maxing, another area that will always exist, and has always existed, but a few things have changed from years past. With the advent of easy respec, class paths/professions that were powerful for certain tasks were typically much harder to level. As a result the number that showed up in PvP, PvE, etc. was skewed as such. This created an environment (especially in PvP) where the number of min/maxers present at any one time was manageable, there were exception to the rule, but for the most part it didn't significantly alter the play field. Fast forward to today and the only way to survive in PvP is to play their game, the ease to which it is to level, and the easy respec has allowed everyone to effectively min/max at their leisure, (ie. take spec1 to lvl fastest, switch to spec2 at max lvl).

3) Lore reasoning, depended on your immersion into the game worlds, this could be a weak or a strong argument. Again in the old school sandbox games, after spending countless hours 'training' in said profession it didn't make sense to switch in an instant to something else. When it was allowed it usually came with serve penalties. Even when they added respec stones to DAoC, they were not easy to get when 1st released, you had to really want to respec, and an argument could have been made that they were magic and allowed a person to change their destiny etc. etc., but the same can't be said about other games, its typically lore breaking.

I have a few other minor issues but they are more personal and affect me as an individual as opposed to the above argument which IMHO affects everyone playing.

Now any good debater will have a few solutions/suggestion to the issue at hand and I have a few of those myself.

I understand mistakes, especially when the game doesn't explain the affects of 90% of the skills. So you put one point into X skill and now you want it back. I have no issue with this, and even if its lore breaking its fair. I am not against correcting mistakes, when you are molding your toon into what you want and you make a small mistake you don't want to have to restart.

I see it like this, if you had 9 points into 'Starship Engineering Training' and you realize late in the game is doesn't do anything for your Tactical Captain, then you should have a means to correct it. BUT if you wanted to respec all your points it should take you longer then restarting (this would discourage players from FOTM, and other silly repsec reasons).


Solution and Possible Methods to add respecing.

You need to address the rank structure before anything can be done. This to me can be done many ways but to the untrained eye the easiest appears be to have another database entry called 'EffectiveRank' for every character. When you spend points the 1st time, this numerical value is increased by X skillpoints. When you reach max lvl, and then reset some skill points, the 'EffectiveRank' value wouldn't change and thus your rank wouldn't change only the available skill points would.

Solution 1) Bridge Office progression
What happens to your bridge officers when they reach max rank? Wouldn't they want to captain a starship? Just like we can change ships, allow your character account to have a 2nd Captain slot, at any time you can choose a bridge officer and promote them to be a captain (at their current rank). They would lose all BO abilities and become just like your main character (but their profession), you could visit a personnel person that allows your current captain to 'go on extended leave.' You would be able to switch back and forth. At any time you can only have 1 extra captain.

Lets play this out, your RA5, and you highest BO is a Cmdr you promote him/her to fill your 'captain' role. You lose them as a BO, they lose all BO skill points (this is debatable). They start with 0 skill points, but their 'EffectiveRank' is Cmdr5. This allows you to buy them a ship at T3, and complete Cmdr lvl missions thus they will earn skill points very fast and catch up.

Solution 2) No Skill Cap
You don't need repsecs if you can master everything. All they need to do is figure out a progression formula. This is fair to even occasional players since atm it doesn't give huge advantages by knowing R9 in everything (diminishing returns is already in place). This also provides a great time sink, while waiting for new content.

ie. next 10k of skills cost 2x, next 10k after that 3x, next 10k after that 4x, etc.

Solution 3) STO Academy
Even Rear Admiral's need to go to school. Designed to fix small mistakes (not entire characters), you go to the STO training academy where you undertake studies (quests) to relearn some skills. This allows for a (hopefully) enjoyable way to fix mistakes on your character, without introducing all the problems associated with full repecs. The reason it would be for small mistakes is because while possible it would take you longer to reset everything then start fresh.

I tried to think of some solutions that would also work together, if you implemented all three solutions you would have:

1) a way to fix small mistakes
2) a way to start a 2nd 'captain' type without restarting from the beginning
3) a way to continually progress

These are of course just my thoughts, and I can be persuaded by good argument, so lets open the floor...

Cheers

Note: edited for content not grammar and spelling
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    and it provides instant content when you have to repeat all the garbage again when you've screwed up your character. I wouldn't hold your breath for respecs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Given the history of the skill system in STO and the shameful lack of reliable/useful information necessary for making an informed choice in skills, respecs are required.

    As for your 3 points...

    1) This can be summed up with "Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill." *IF* this is the case, it is due to a poor design for said skill, and on the developers to address/correct. It is NOT a valid reason for no providing a respec mechanism.

    2) It's a game, min/maxing is part of that. For some, min/maxing IS the game.

    3) Irrelevant, it's a game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Solution 2) No Skill Cap
    You don't need repsecs if you can master everything. All they need to do is figure out a progression formula. This is fair to even occasional players since atm it doesn't give huge advantages by knowing R9 in everything (diminishing returns is already in place). This also provides a great time sink, while waiting for new content.

    ie. next 10k of skills cost 2x, next 10k after that 3x, next 10k after that 4x, etc.


    Unless I'm mistaken or they've since stated things have changed, Cryptic did state there would be no skill cap, as far as I can tell the current RA5 skill cap is purely temporary while they finish and implement the content for RA5+ otherwise all those people would be massively overpowered when that content is introduced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Until they fully document the skills so we know what the hell they do we will need respecs to fix choices made with incorrect information. Absolutely nothing the OP posted changes this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I personally believe they are dragging their feet on adding in respecs to the game. I'll give some of my faulty reasons below:

    1. This game is built on the same engine that CO runs on and many of the devs on STO worked on CO so they know the engine and the code up one side and down the other. I don't think it would be that 'hard' to get these in game. They were also a part of CO when it launched so it isn't like the designers weren't aware of a respec system while the game was in development.

    2. I understand that there was no skill cap initially when the game was being designed etc. so they may not have thought a respec system was necessary. However, I would imagine that some internal discussions took place about implementing a skill cap long before that information was released. In said discussions, nobody mentioned the idea of respecs? I don't buy it but maybe I'm giving Cryptic too much credit.

    3. There is a serious lack of content both at end game and for the Klingons. This is well known and Cryptic has already said they are working on it. Here's the thing, if we have full respecs already in game then there would be no reason for me to try out the other characters. I could just respec my current toon and BAM, I'm a science officer where once I was a Tactical. It eliminates any need/desire to create and try different characters. This in turn vastly reduces the "replay" ability of the game. I'll be honest, I tried an Engineering officer all the way to Captain and then decided I wanted to try Science. That kept me in game a long time having to redo my toon. In that vein, Cryptic is successful in delaying my realization that there isn't *hit to do once you level cap. By the time I've played around with all 3 character types there's a good chance that Cryptic will have had time to add end game content and add stuff for Klingons.


    In the end I personally feel that this is nothing more than a delay tactic to give players something to spend their time on until more content is added. Once the content is added the respecs will be added too. I find it all too convenient that the Devs are saying respecs are coming in game right when they are saying they are adding a major content dump to the game. Unfortunately I'm not sticking around to find out. I went through this with Cryptic already with Champions Online and I don't intend on doing another rodeo with them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    what about respecing due to all the nerfs or bugs that make some skills completely useless.

    I played in beta and certain skills are now completely different to what they are in retail.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The reason why there's no respec in game is this: until about 1 week and something from the launch, this game had no skill cap. It was promised long way ago in beta and up until the last days it was how the game went. Thus, no need to fret over a respec.

    Then they remembered they were short on content (and money) so they brought the skill cap, so as to limit player progression to keep them all on par with the release of new content (which may make sense). But also gives them the chance to offer respecs for micro transactions, like they did for champions. I bet though, that respec will be available in game as well (though if it is like it was in champions, it'll be quite expensive to do).

    Respec makes sense in pretty much ANY game, few games don't allow respec. The reason is simple: punishing customers for their mistakes (even more when the mistakes are caused by bad/non existant documentation, changing situations and so on) is a bad commerce pratice, which makes a game very suddenly not that fun anymore. Tabula rasa failed mostly for that reason: a few months in retail they completely changed the games difficulty and how some classes worked, completely breaking gaming styles. People, like me, fled the sinking boat.

    Fortunately respec here is not quite as important since there are a lot of skill and you would have to mess the distribution REALLY badly to make the game suddenly unplayable (or at least not fun).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    You make a good point... Interesting argument...

    I'd still like them, but I admit at least a little personal bias ...'cause I'd like to use one on my main character =)


    Perhaps just making them difficult to get ,or earned over time...or just partial? or a combination of all of those?

    I want one... but I'm willing to consider the good of the game over that...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    All very good points, but I want respecs. Simple as that.

    how costly they are or detrimental they are is for cryptic to decide, but I want them. I want my Gekiganger doll back and I want my respec(s).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    1) In every MMO game imbalances are serious issues, and are further complicated when there is a PvP portion to the game. Allowing easy repsec makes it vastly more difficult to balance anything. Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill. This is counterproductive, the dev team needs data logs and performance info to tweak said skill but when everyone gets rid of it they can't get reliable info. As a result of the flawed data they devs make changes that will most likely be too much or still not enough, which of course results in a still unused skill or everyone changes to the new version thus starting a spiral of consist and unnecessary changes.

    2) Min/Maxing, another area that will always exist, and has always existed, but a few things have changed from years past. With the advent of easy respec, class paths/professions that were powerful for certain tasks were typically much harder to level. As a result the number that showed up in PvP, PvE, etc. was skewed as such. This created an environment (especially in PvP) where the number of min/maxers present at any one time was manageable, there were exception to the rule, but for the most part it didn't significantly alter the play field. Fast forward to today and the only way to survive in PvP is to play their game, the ease to which it is to level, and the easy respec has allowed everyone to effectively min/max at their leisure, (ie. take spec1 to lvl fastest, switch to spec2 at max lvl).

    3) Lore reasoning, depended on your immersion into the game worlds, this could be a weak or a strong argument. Again in the old school sandbox games, after spending countless hours 'training' in said profession it didn't make sense to switch in an instant to something else. When it was allowed it usually came with serve penalties. Even when they added respec stones to DAoC, they were not easy to get when 1st released, you had to really want to respec, and an argument could have been made that they were magic and allowed a person to change their destiny etc. etc., but the same can't be said about other games, its typically lore breaking.

    1)allowing respecs does not affect balance. balance in mmo's is fluid, wether balance patches come every couple of weeks or take several months. wow allows easy respecs and it is one of the most balanced mmo's ever, though it's not by any means perfect. GW is also an example of a mmo liek game that has constant balance changes, and yet respeccing is just a matter of switching out skills to fill your 8 skill slots.

    2) in games that are easy to respec, there are usually specs for easier leveling, then it is easy to respec at a specific level or endgame for a sepcific task spec, which would not necessarily be effective for leveling. in older mmo's there were always alpha classes which were the best at everything, wether it was pvp or pve, and less powerful classes which were often good at nothing. examples of this are l2 which had no respec, SWG which had easy respecs with some penalties, and more recently aion, which claims to have robust customization options, and yet has clearly best specs for all areas of customization per class, as well the best pvp classes in aion are the fastest leveling classes as well.

    3) although game mechanics and lore should have a relationship, lore should never dictate mechanics over playability. the best games sacrifice lore for play. furthermore there is nothing in ST which says a captain cannot learn new things, or relearn things. captain picard wasn't the same man in season 1 as he was in season 7. janeway had her fair share of battles and her initial mission was nto a science mission, sisko went from engineering at utopia planetia to commanding a starbase, then later commanding a starship. you could say along the way they respecced their skill sets.

    it's best when repsec are easy. yes there are going to be cookie cutter specs, but these will be much more common with respecs which take more time and effort to do, since people will be more unwilling to experiment or try what is percieved to be a weaker spec.

    for example in wow, i had a cookie cutter spec for most of the time i played. and yet every few weeks or months i would get an idea for a new spec which was unusual, and try it out for a couple weeks. it added more play time and sub time for that game, because i had the freedom to try something different with less commitment to a specific spec. no matter how long it took to respec i had to have a specific spec most of the time to be competitive in my area of play, but when i wanted to do something different there wasn't a huge penalty locking me into a single spec.

    with easier repsecs in STO, we will see more people trying out different types of ships, or trying ground based specs for things such as ground pvp. we will see more of a variety of weapons being used, since right now you are forced to plan ahead and either gimp yourself out at captain rank or w/e and wait til adm for a specific weapon type, or choose a specific weapon type early and gimp yourself out at admiral.


    now i agree there needs to be changes made to the skill tree, but even when and if those changes are made, easy respecs are preferable imho, to both avoid forcing players into using cookie cutter specs all the time, and to ease the balance issues which may arise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Airwren wrote:
    I personally believe they are dragging their feet on adding in respecs to the game. I'll give some of my faulty reasons below:

    1. This game is built on the same engine that CO runs on and many of the devs on STO worked on CO so they know the engine and the code up one side and down the other. I don't think it would be that 'hard' to get these in game. They were also a part of CO when it launched so it isn't like the designers weren't aware of a respec system while the game was in development.

    Except in CO, your level was NOT tied to how many skill points you had spent.

    That make this far more complicated as your rank is, in turn, tied to just about everything else (the ship you fly, the items you have equipped, your BO ranks/skills, everything).

    Resetting all skill points suddenly screws up pretty much every single aspect of character progression.

    Tying skill points spent to rank was just as short sighted as adding a skill point cap (if not more so). They really painted themselves into a corner with that one, and I honestly cant fathom why they chose to do so. As an engineer, designing something so restrictive/limited is just shows an utter lack of forethought. I would have loved to be in on that meeting…
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    If your defense for not having a respec is anecdotal evidence and lore, you should just stop posting.

    1) The ability descriptions are horribly worded, thus you can easily make a terrible choice and be stuck with it.

    2) There is no scalability as they add content. How you like them anti-proton weapons? Bet you love having spent a couple thousand points on phaser spec, to only see that phasers are obsolete at rear-admiral.

    3) Talents are HORRENDOUSLY laid out. There must have been little to no thought put into the talents. The top tier abilities becoming increasingly specialized forces me to plan for content I dont even know about. Otherwise I spend points on photon torpedos only to find out they suck at rear admiral (something I wouldnt know without a friend already at rear-admiral). Another fine example are the T3 ship specs. I can spend points on a ship that will become obsolete in 10 levels, and then have no way to recover those points? AWESOME!?!

    4) Customization. I am forced to pick out my niche at level 11 under the current system (some may even argue that you choose at the char select screen). If I roll cruiser, im stuck cruiser forever. I wont have points or the ability to respec into escort or science. Also, lack or respecs prevents me from even trying other abilities. How do I know whats good, if I have no idea whats out there? My best bet will be to follow someone's cookie cutter spec, and pray that it fits my playstyle.


    Above all else, there is a reason the most successful MMO ever has respecs and even dual specs now. If Cryptic thinks they are smarter than Blizzard when it comes to MMO design, they are sadly mistaken and will drive this game into the ground without respec. Unless you all think its a strong business move to force players to use their limited player slots on going down a new talent tree (or deleting the old one to try a new one)? That is without factoring in the weeks to get back to rear-admiral.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    2) Min/Maxing, another area that will always exist, and has always existed, but a few things have changed from years past. With the advent of easy respec, class paths/professions that were powerful for certain tasks were typically much harder to level. As a result the number that showed up in PvP, PvE, etc. was skewed as such. This created an environment (especially in PvP) where the number of min/maxers present at any one time was manageable, there were exception to the rule, but for the most part it didn't significantly alter the play field. Fast forward to today and the only way to survive in PvP is to play their game, the ease to which it is to level, and the easy respec has allowed everyone to effectively min/max at their leisure, (ie. take spec1 to lvl fastest, switch to spec2 at max lvl).

    As much as I hate to admit it, you actually are making a good point here. I hate to admit it, simply because I like being able to easily respec if I want, and the thought of the game being more difficult for everyone as a result is rather eye-opening.
    3) Lore reasoning, depended on your immersion into the game worlds, this could be a weak or a strong argument. Again in the old school sandbox games, after spending countless hours 'training' in said profession it didn't make sense to switch in an instant to something else. When it was allowed it usually came with serve penalties. Even when they added respec stones to DAoC, they were not easy to get when 1st released, you had to really want to respec, and an argument could have been made that they were magic and allowed a person to change their destiny etc. etc., but the same can't be said about other games, its typically lore breaking.

    This is true. However, this is one area where I think SWG's method of changing professions (pre-NGE) worked really well for this sort of game. That is, you had to earn the XP to gain the new skills in the new profession, starting from the bottom up. In the meantime, you could drop older skills at any time, but you would not reclaim the XP that went into them (just room towards this skill cap), and you'd have to lose them from the top down. That meant you'd spend a long period of time in a transitional state, being a hybrid of two professions and not able to do either one of them well. I think this is a good thing, and made the game more interesting. My character underwent two or three such transitions, and they made good gameplay goals in themselves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    1) In every MMO game imbalances are serious issues, and are further complicated when there is a PvP portion to the game. Allowing easy repsec makes it vastly more difficult to balance anything. Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill. This is counterproductive, the dev team needs data logs and performance info to tweak said skill but when everyone gets rid of it they can't get reliable info. As a result of the flawed data they devs make changes that will most likely be too much or still not enough, which of course results in a still unused skill or everyone changes to the new version thus starting a spiral of consist and unnecessary changes.

    2) Min/Maxing, another area that will always exist, and has always existed, but a few things have changed from years past. With the advent of easy respec, class paths/professions that were powerful for certain tasks were typically much harder to level. As a result the number that showed up in PvP, PvE, etc. was skewed as such. This created an environment (especially in PvP) where the number of min/maxers present at any one time was manageable, there were exception to the rule, but for the most part it didn't significantly alter the play field. Fast forward to today and the only way to survive in PvP is to play their game, the ease to which it is to level, and the easy respec has allowed everyone to effectively min/max at their leisure, (ie. take spec1 to lvl fastest, switch to spec2 at max lvl).

    3) Lore reasoning, depended on your immersion into the game worlds, this could be a weak or a strong argument. Again in the old school sandbox games, after spending countless hours 'training' in said profession it didn't make sense to switch in an instant to something else. When it was allowed it usually came with serve penalties. Even when they added respec stones to DAoC, they were not easy to get when 1st released, you had to really want to respec, and an argument could have been made that they were magic and allowed a person to change their destiny etc. etc., but the same can't be said about other games, its typically lore breaking.

    1. Having a better description of what skills did would have been really helpful when I was ranking, especially because we NEED to spend skillpoints to rank. Several times I wanted to just hold on to them because of how unsure I was of the options available. As far as the reason for respec goes, I would prefer for your stated classroom-style limited retraining and not for a blanket "Retrain button". I'll tell why in a sec.

    2. Contrary to what others in this thread have said, WoW is NOT balanced, and its precisely because its so dam easy to respec in all classes. It is too easy to just change to the spec that will give your char the best performance, which defeats basic enjoyment of the game because you are then expected to adapt in radical ways to what others have proven is somehow superior.

    Most obvious example: I preferred to run Blood spec for my DK on WoW. It felt more natural for me to do so, and I didn't like being expected to run Unholy just so I could compete in Raid dps. Balance in WoW should allow me, being more comfortable in Blood spec, to at least be competitive in dps to Unholy spec using the same gear, if only for single targets and not for AoE, idc which. In a nutshell, being forced to use a particular spec, in a certain way, is NOT balance. This ensures that the game will degenerate into FOTM, and I can quickly see STO begin sinking to the same lvl where someone "'must' use science with a certain skill tree to compete in dps," for example, if ease of respec is in play. RPG elements demand that there must be multiple right ways to achieve the same result, because everyone is different, even within classes and ranks. So far, STO has been rewarding in that factor, though pvp arenas are rapidly dropping into it :(

    3. Agreed, lore should not come above gameplay, as another has said. However, RP is important to some players and especially to the Trekkie franchise, and the moniker of it should not be compromised to the point it becomes indistinct.

    As it stands now, as i learn more about my skills I find that my previous choices were good or bad. I mistakenly put points in cannons early on with my main, and then decided I did not like cannons and regretted putting points into it. Then, later on, I found out those cannon points were helping turret dps and I didn't mind so much lol

    The point is, we should expect our pilots to adapt, and it shouldn't necessarily effect the top performance of STO pilots in a game breaking way for each pilot, forcing them to respec in the first place.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I'd agree with you. They definitely should be difficult to obtain. I liked the DAoC approach, to be honest.

    However, at this point of development, I don't think they should cost much, if anything. Especially given the lack of documentation, or incorrect documentation within the game, as well as on the STO website.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One free respec for everyone, a one time shot, is needed.

    The powers were not very clear how they worked.

    The way your BO's get promoted and which ones use certain skills based on ship selection and available consoles was not clear.

    The knowledge of the endless string of more rare BO's that we get was not made obvious.

    People would have made very different choices in the way they spent their points if this information and more was actually provided.

    There is nothing wrong with providing everyone with a one time respec.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    RolandThorne, despite your complaints, WoW is a pretty well balanced game. Realize to put it in perspective, you are complaining about being marginally less able than another spec to fulfill 1 specific role (out of 3 that would apply: tank, dps, pvp) with 1 specific spec (of 3) out of 1 specific class (of 10). That's 1 thing out of somewhere around 100 that you might have a couple of percent less effectiveness than a theoretical perfect person who was specced differently. In practice your personal skill is more important in any fight than that difference in game mechanics, unless your group plays so perfectly that the couple of percent would be gravy.

    My guess is that you're just playing with lunkheads who want to be hardcore but suck at it.

    But obfuscation is not balance--without the opportunity to respec, you could be very noticeably worse off than someone who is lucky enough (or plays too much) that has a more optimal spec. And you could do jack about it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    First off I'd like to start this post asking those that do post to do so in a debate style, if you want respec state your reasoning why, if you don't also state why. If you agree with someone else's views that is great and it can save some typing.

    The reason I believe repsec didn't exist at launch:

    STO uses a skills spent system to assign your rank, if you respec and reset all those skill points you would change rank, and that doesn't make sense. In the last section I list solutions and address this current issue.

    Why I don't want to see repsec's in STO:

    1) In every MMO game imbalances are serious issues, and are further complicated when there is a PvP portion to the game. Allowing easy repsec makes it vastly more difficult to balance anything. Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill. This is counterproductive, the dev team needs data logs and performance info to tweak said skill but when everyone gets rid of it they can't get reliable info. As a result of the flawed data they devs make changes that will most likely be too much or still not enough, which of course results in a still unused skill or everyone changes to the new version thus starting a spiral of consist and unnecessary changes.

    2) Min/Maxing, another area that will always exist, and has always existed, but a few things have changed from years past. With the advent of easy respec, class paths/professions that were powerful for certain tasks were typically much harder to level. As a result the number that showed up in PvP, PvE, etc. was skewed as such. This created an environment (especially in PvP) where the number of min/maxers present at any one time was manageable, there were exception to the rule, but for the most part it didn't significantly alter the play field. Fast forward to today and the only way to survive in PvP is to play their game, the ease to which it is to level, and the easy respec has allowed everyone to effectively min/max at their leisure, (ie. take spec1 to lvl fastest, switch to spec2 at max lvl).

    3) Lore reasoning, depended on your immersion into the game worlds, this could be a weak or a strong argument. Again in the old school sandbox games, after spending countless hours 'training' in said profession it didn't make sense to switch in an instant to something else. When it was allowed it usually came with serve penalties. Even when they added respec stones to DAoC, they were not easy to get when 1st released, you had to really want to respec, and an argument could have been made that they were magic and allowed a person to change their destiny etc. etc., but the same can't be said about other games, its typically lore breaking.

    I have a few other minor issues but they are more personal and affect me as an individual as opposed to the above argument which IMHO affects everyone playing.

    Now any good debater will have a few solutions/suggestion to the issue at hand and I have a few of those myself.

    I understand mistakes, especially when the game doesn't explain the affects of 90% of the skills. So you put one point into X skill and now you want it back. I have no issue with this, and even if its lore breaking its fair. I am not against correcting mistakes, when you are molding your toon into what you want and you make a small mistake you don't want to have to restart.

    I see it like this, if you had 9 points into 'Starship Engineering Training' and you realize late in the game is doesn't do anything for your Tactical Captain, then you should have a means to correct it. BUT if you wanted to respec all your points it should take you longer then restarting (this would discourage players from FOTM, and other silly repsec reasons).


    Solution and Possible Methods to add respecing.

    You need to address the rank structure before anything can be done. This to me can be done many ways but to the untrained eye the easiest appears be to have another database entry called 'EffectiveRank' for every character. When you spend points the 1st time, this numerical value is increased by X skillpoints. When you reach max lvl, and then reset some skill points, the 'EffectiveRank' value wouldn't change and thus your rank wouldn't change only the available skill points would.

    Solution 1) Bridge Office progression
    What happens to your bridge officers when they reach max rank? Wouldn't they want to captain a starship? Just like we can change ships, allow your character account to have a 2nd Captain slot, at any time you can choose a bridge officer and promote them to be a captain (at their current rank). They would lose all BO abilities and become just like your main character (but their profession), you could visit a personnel person that allows your current captain to 'go on extended leave.' You would be able to switch back and forth. At any time you can only have 1 extra captain.

    Lets play this out, your RA5, and you highest BO is a Cmdr you promote him/her to fill your 'captain' role. You lose them as a BO, they lose all BO skill points (this is debatable). They start with 0 skill points, but their 'EffectiveRank' is Cmdr5. This allows you to buy them a ship at T3, and complete Cmdr lvl missions thus they will earn skill points very fast and catch up.

    Solution 2) No Skill Cap
    You don't need repsecs if you can master everything. All they need to do is figure out a progression formula. This is fair to even occasional players since atm it doesn't give huge advantages by knowing R9 in everything (diminishing returns is already in place). This also provides a great time sink, while waiting for new content.

    ie. next 10k of skills cost 2x, next 10k after that 3x, next 10k after that 4x, etc.

    Solution 3) STO Academy
    Even Rear Admiral's need to go to school. Designed to fix small mistakes (not entire characters), you go to the STO training academy where you undertake studies (quests) to relearn some skills. This allows for a (hopefully) enjoyable way to fix mistakes on your character, without introducing all the problems associated with full repecs. The reason it would be for small mistakes is because while possible it would take you longer to reset everything then start fresh.

    I tried to think of some solutions that would also work together, if you implemented all three solutions you would have:

    1) a way to fix small mistakes
    2) a way to start a 2nd 'captain' type without restarting from the beginning
    3) a way to continually progress

    These are of course just my thoughts, and I can be persuaded by good argument, so lets open the floor...

    Cheers

    Note: edited for content not grammar and spelling

    Wrong, all you need to know is they built a game and skills around an unlimited # skills and no cap, then introduced a cap where none of the T3-5 were redesigned to coincide with the new paradigm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, the skill system is broken altogether. It was designed with the intent of having unlimited skill points for whatever nonsensical reason. None of the top tier skills have any synergy with lower ranked skills except, I think, the tier 2 skills which have general buffs. Since you are forced to lay your skill points to promote, poor builds are inevitable. Surely Cryptic is rethinking the whole skill system which is the cause of respeccing being delayed for so long. Respecs should come at a cost but they should be available: its fun, adds to the longevity of the game, supports Cryptic in making future skill modifications and empowers players to compete at what they consider to be optimal levels. If this game was a masterwork of gaming mechanics, I might consider your argument. As of now STO has the most unsophisticated skill system I have ever seen in any game, not just MMORPGs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Phaedryn wrote: »
    1) This can be summed up with "Whenever the community (using this loosely) dislikes a skill and you can respec, many will discard it for a superior skill." *IF* this is the case, it is due to a poor design for said skill, and on the developers to address/correct. It is NOT a valid reason for no providing a respec mechanism.
    Also, there are people who do dedicate time to researching all aspects and information for all skill in a game, typically min/maxers. They will typically post meaningful and informed information about a flawed skill, and that is much more helpful then a lot of people complaining about how much they hate a skill that they are stuck with.

    Also, I saw a few posts pointing out a fact that it is hard to plan out a meaning full and fun spec for your character's skills when the descriptions are so incredibly vague.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Cynics wrote:
    Wrong, all you need to know is they built a game and skills around an unlimited # skills and no cap, then introduced a cap where none of the T3-5 were redesigned to coincide with the new paradigm.

    This is true, but the dev's have said that the skill cap will be used for future content. Instead of increasing level, they will increase the cap so you can get more skills to be on the same skill level as the new content mobs. They said it would be easier to develope content knowing what could be accomplished by players at the current cap.

    As far as a respec. It should be in game because of the number of mistakes players could make. As well as players that want to change their style or role when playing. Just add in a progressive cost so you will be limited. There will be the same cap in place for every player. Everyone has the potential to be equal as is. The only change a respec will do is change your ship or ground setup. And with future content, you could adjust for PvE or PvP. It will not hurt the game to have a respec.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Not happening, you're points in favor of not having a respec option just don't add up.

    Simple fact is that a lot of people make mistakes while distributing skill points, especially new players. Once the game gets it's footing and fleets start becoming....not pointless, specific builds are going to become more and more crucial (and required) as you progress through the game. You can easily wind up with a completely unplayable character by endgame simply by ******* up on a few points here and there. You're also forgetting the fact that a lot of players might want to try out a different play style in the game without having to create a brand new character from scratch every single time. That would be a shame, because the game is set-up in such a way that with a respec option that it would allow players to try out several different new modes of play, the replay value goes way up.

    Yes, it sounds WoW-ish, but that's how it goes when you have a distributable skill tree and there's no way around it.

    Having a respec option isn't an option, it has to be there in a game that's set up like this one is. There's no debate on the issue, we need to be able to respec.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    This game is so full of fail, I mean, seriously...

    In about 6 months, with all the lack of content and the extremely simplified game mechanics no one will give anything (no ****, no **** and no ****) about.... this.... anymore.

    Because it is the uttermost failure conceivable.

    Crypic got one of the best IPs in the world - and they created... this... this whatever it is that is so full of fail.

    Btw, I switched over to Runes of Magic.

    It's free (except for the reasonably priced RMT stuff), it's more fun and there is much more to do.

    @Fanbois

    Go on, continue lying to yourself and ******* flame me. I hope you will lose much more money to rip off companies like Cryptic before you learn, just because I HATE fanbois and their subject ideology. Yeah, go on, say "thank you" to Cryptic for ripping you off by exploiting the amazing Star Trek IP.

    And, yes... I have a REASON and a VALIDATION to ***** here. I PAYED an incredible amount of money (EUR 59,90 for this substandard casual game), Cryptic ripped me off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    1) Game balance issues are hardly the purview of a player to maintain, especially in PvP, where the entire goal is to be better than your opponent. Also, it is not the job of players to provide "data logs and performance info". Balance issues are the purview of their employees, the ones they are paying, not their customers, the ones who are paying them.

    2) Yes min/maxing is a part of the game, and I don't really expect it to change any time soon, nor would I really want it to go away.

    The people who put that much thought and effort into maximizing their characters are the same ones who build up entire web sites around it. They are also the same ones who, years after release, are still playing the same game. This is hardly the group you want to snub.

    They are also the ones who eventually make it easier for the casual player to be competitive in PvP. Very often I take the information on character builds from those who came before me, review it, and decide which of those I most want to play. I do not have the inclination to study the multiple classes and skill trees, but using the build information, coupled with the ability to adopt a different build, kept me in WoW months after I would have otherwise left.

    Also, I sure as hell don't want to play yet another Engineer from level 1 just so I can fix my skills made from lack of any information coupled with forced skill point expenditure. Because of the complete lack of information on skill effects, I was an Ensign 1 until I had enough for my new ship, and then I was a Lt.Cmdr. 1 until I had enough for my next ship, and so on up the tree. Given the complete lack of mission variation, I'll go find a new game before I go through that again.

    3) I have a hard time accepting "Lore" as a reasonable reason to not include re-specs in a game where virtually nothing a captain does has ANY bearing on of the events happening in the game.

    According to the lore, just how many vessels did the Borg attack where they killed all known officers except one Ensign who just happened to be on another ship at the time? Who exactly was it that escorted an Undine disguised as a Vulcan diplomat to the temple?

    Seeing as they reported there being over a million accounts, each with at least 1 character that is acting captain, the borg must be incredibly active in killing officers and Starfleet must be incredibly dense to accept that an Undine is posing as the same dead Vulcan diplomat yet again, for the umpteenth hundred thousandth time.

    Supplemental) To touch on one other point

    Fixing the system to account for a skill reset would be negligible and after less than 5 minutes of thought there are 3 workable systems.

    A) If you just reset the purchased skills, it is a simple matter of repurchasing the skills. So what if you can now only fly a Light Cruiser, re-spend the points on what you actually wanted and get back your old rank. Not sure what skills you want? Why did you bother resetting them?

    B) The game already tells you when you reach each level based on the skill points earned, not just skills spent. Changing the rank marker to points earned and not points spent will easily fix the problem.

    C) Or you could just introduce a single new variable for the maximum skill points you have ever spent at one time and use this value to determine rank.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Btw, min / maxing IS the game. It is what separates the bystanders from the players who will really kill the final boss and have a place in a guild (or "fleet" or whatever).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    i must admit i didn't read the wall of text, the title was enough.

    to me, having no respec option is the worst mistake of the whole game. it just doesn't make sense. especially considering how vague and wrong many talents and related stats/abilities are described (if they are described at all) in the game and its manual. and they force you to spend the points, so you can level up! how silly is this?

    of course respecs should come at a cost... but not being able to respec at all kills one of the core features any mmo should have: to be able to specialize, individualize and perfectionate your character over time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The same folks make this game as made City of Heroes, with the same issues with respects. When the team changed at City of Heroes respects were added in much more abundance and the game was not broken.

    Respects do not allow you to change class, they only let you change where your skill points got spent.
    Thus mistakes made can be fixed.

    They other similarity between STO and COH is the lack information on just what skills/powers do. Why the GM's think it hurts a game to let the players know how skills work is beyond my ability to understand.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    While I appreciate all the comments, after reading them all it seems either many didn't understand what I said, or read the title 'no respecs' and wrote something. Almost all those disagreeing with me may have missed the portion where I mentioned solutions to the repsec issue, spec mistakes and wanting to start a new character without going from ensign up. I addressed those without having a full instant respec option.

    The ability to allow full respecs does indeed need to exist as if there are major changes to your profession it is understandable to give those players a full respec.

    I am also fully aware that the intention was to allow no-skill caps, and mentioned in my solution section to re-add that.

    Almost all the skills are tied to profession which would not changeable even if we had full respecs, or your bridge officer which is easy enough to change as is. Since you can easily try skills without spending any points I don't see how you could have messed up your skill points so bad.

    I completely agree that some amount of retraining is needed and mentioned that in my solutions. The skill documentation is terrible, I have spend countless hours already testing and comparing skills, I am guilty of min/maxing but I have always endured the consequences of that path. I completely disagree with following easy lvl spec, and switching at max lvl to become the uber FOTM.

    The point of not allowing respecs because your spec is bad is so you can give the devs a chance to fix it, that was my point. Maybe I started playing in an era with more patience but I have never encounter a spec so bad that I couldn't play in any game, so I was content waiting a few weeks until the devs addressed it.

    Balancing should come in the form of weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly patches not players just switching specs to avoid a balance issue.

    Now if the spec if broken ie. skills actually do not work, not that they are under performing, then thats a different case, I prefer to give them some time to fix it, but wanting an out for a completely broken skill is understandable. The problem is many players will classify a under performing skill as a broken skill when that is not the case.

    The players that are real min/maxes the ones that have at times taken days and weeks of data logging their skills and parsing every known data piece in the game are not the ones that want an easy respec. I am one of those people. I spent weeks data logging in DAoC, EQ/EQ2, Vanguard, AoC, even in LOTRO to figure my classes out. The people that want the easy respec are those that will visit my blog or my website, read the 3 lines that have my spec, change to it until said time someone else figures out better at which time they will
    respec to that.

    The hardcore community doesn't ***** for respecs, they'll reroll and max lvl without a word, they'll deal with the problem and find ways around it.

    This is also not a STO specific issue, its an issue I have with many modern MMOs.

    Cheers
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The point of not allowing respecs because your spec is bad is so you can give the devs a chance to fix it, that was my point. Maybe I started playing in an era with more patience but I have never encounter a spec so bad that I couldn't play in any game, so I was content waiting a few weeks until the devs addressed it.

    Sorry, you lost all credibility with this statement. It can take months or years for a MMO team to get around to fixing broken skills or skills that do something other than what the description claims. I don't want to sit around stuck with a broken, underperforming, etc. skill for a long time hoping that the devs get around to fixing it some day when there is pie in the sky by and by.

    Your attitude is what gives the devs the idea that they are free to not bother providing proper documentation or a means to correct specs built in the absence of documentation, after all, why can't the players wait for as long as it takes for them to finally fix their mistakes?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One addition thing, I am not at all opposed to the test server having instant leveling and unlimited repsecs.

    Cheers
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