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What crafting needs to be fun: a breakdown

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
At the end of the day, the current system really is crafting… in much the same way that buying items is crafting. You’re just crafting energy credits into items. And trading exploration badges for items is crafting badges into items.

But the fact that they can be considered the same thing through a particular squint of the eyes doesn’t make it particularly compelling. What makes crafting compelling (imho) are features that provide one or more of the following (there is some fuzzy overlap) [1] Immersion, [2] bragging rights, [3] cool loot, and [4a] character advancement, with [4b] incremental progress notifications, aka sugar cubes and [4c] character differentiation.

I believe that most gamers are looking for a subset of the following features in a “good” crafting system:

(1) Gathering component parts from resource nodes. Yeah, they have this, so why doesn’t it pop? Primarily, I believe this is because the “next steps” don’t pop, and so the whole thing kind of peters out. But if they fix that, it’d still be lacking. Why? Immersion. When you want ore, you go to the mountains. Animal hides? Go kill some animals. But when you need antimatter? Well… let’s just hope it drops out of that reading over there. The system would benefit if different types of systems had more obvious concentrations of certain materials (not just by tier) – the type of which is determined by some obvious trait of the system, making it feel more “real.” This is not just the current "they drop out of a recognizable node type," this is "the types of nodes are more prevalent in a recognizable environment."

(2) Learning recipes Getting a cool recipe as a reward/drop is “cool loot.” Actually learning a recipe gives you “bragging rights” and “character advancement.”

(3) Crafting skills – with progress numbers Face it – this is a big component of any MMOG: Walking your character’s numbers forward on a treadmill for bragging rights and character advancement. And sometimes seeing a skill number advance is just the sugar cube you need to keep you walking forward for another hour.

(4) Crafting animations This is all about Immersion. We’re playing a computer game, not a pen-and-paper game, so you can’t rely on “well crafting and bartering are really the same - just use your imagination.” They need to look different to make it immersive. It’s harder to imagine you’re crafting when you look exactly like you’re buying something.

(5) Items unique to crafting AND/OR items easier to get by crafting than other mechanics This gives you bragging rights and cool loot. If crafting doesn’t have some items that are better than quest rewards you’ll complete long before you could craft the items, what’s the point, really?

(6) Multiple, exclusive crafting paths Bragging rights, character differentiation, and a bonus: alt-ability. If you can’t have all the crafting skills on one toon, you’re more likely to make alts to level the others. Encouraging alts == longer subscription lifetimes, so this one shoulda been a no-brainer.

Corefault
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Corefault wrote: »
    (4) This is all about Immersion. We’re playing a computer game, not a pen-and-paper game, so you can’t rely on “well crafting and bartering are really the same - just use your imagination.” They need to look different to make it immersive. It’s harder to imagine you’re crafting when you look exactly like you’re buying something.

    Oh my goodness, thank you so much.
    Kudos.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    great post.. all valid points.. VERY valid.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hi,
    i dont understand everything you're saying but for me the System would be fine if there were a lot more NPC's on Memory Alpha (and other places... Daystrom Institute or whatever!) for way more diffrent Item Types.

    What i see now are the following *Stores* (yes it says STORE ingame!)


    1: Jenna Romaine

    items (you dont need to read that, just fly over it):
    - Medium Hypo -> Large
    - Medium Power Cell -> Large
    - Personal Shield Mk II
    - Disruptor Dual Pistols
    - Phaser Wide Beam Pistol
    - Phaser Beam Array Mk II
    - Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk II
    - Eng Kit - Chroniton Mine Barrier Standard Issue -> Mk II
    - Sci Kit - Medical Tricorder Standard Issue -> Mk II
    - Tac Kit - Photon Grenade Standard Issue -> Mk II

    thoughts (read this please):
    * Medium Hypo -> Large ...ok but why no small to medium hypo?
    * only Mk II stuff -> you have to start wasting those anomalies into Mk II stuff right at the beginning of your char or you soon will have no chance to get to the higher tiers because you will only have >mk III stuff left.


    2: Lt. Cmdr. Anichent

    items:
    - Plasma Blast Assault Mk IV
    - Plasma Compression Pistol Mk IV
    - Plasma Sniper Rifle Mk IV
    - Plasma Beam Array Mk IV
    - Plasma Dual Cannons Mk IV
    - Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk IV
    - Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk IV
    - Tac Kit - Close Combat Specialist Mk III -> Mk IV
    - Tac Kit - Fire Team Mk III -> Mk IV
    - Plasma Blast Assault Mk VI
    - Plasma Compression Pistol Mk VI
    - Plasma Sniper Rifle Mk VI
    - Plasma Beam Array Mk VI
    - Plasma Dual Cannons Mk VI
    - Plasma Torpedo Launcher Mk VI
    - Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk VI
    - Tac Kit - Close Combat Specialist Mk V -> Mk VI
    - Tac Kit - Fire Team Mk V -> Mk VI

    thoughts:
    * Plasma Plasma Plasma Plasma... and a little Quantum
    * Mk IV and Mk VI (no Mk V ?)
    * you seem to be able to upgrade Kits a complete Tier while everything else only gets a uncommon or rare Status, why?


    3 Zara Den:

    items:
    - Personal Shield Mk IV
    - Plasma Stun Pistol Mk IV
    - Deflector Array Mk IV
    - Covariant Shield Array Mk IV
    - Sci Kit - Physician Mk III
    - Sci Kit - Analyst Mk III -> Mk IV
    - Personal Shield Mk VI
    - Plasma Stun Pistol Mk VI
    - Deflector Array Mk VI
    - Covariant Shield Array Mk VI
    - Sci Kit - Physician Mk V -> Mk VI
    - Sci Kit - Analyst Mk V -> Mk VI

    thoughts:
    * again only Mk IV and VI


    4: Ensign Marissa Roet

    items:
    - Energy Dampening Armor Mk IV
    - Pollyalloy Weave Armor Mk IV
    - Personal Shield Mk IV
    - Combat Impulse Engines Mk IV
    - Hyper-Impulse Engines Mk IV
    - Impulse Engines Mk IV
    - Eng Kit - Enemy Neutralization Mk III -> Mk IV
    - Eng Kit - Support Technician Mk III -> Mk IV
    - Energy Dampening Armor Mk VI
    - Pollyalloy Weave Armor Mk VI
    - Personal Shield Mk VI
    - Combat Impulse Engines Mk VI
    - Hyper-Impulse Engines Mk VI
    - Impulse Engines Mk VI
    - Eng Kit - Enemy Neutralization Mk V -> Mk VI
    - Eng Kit - Support Technician Mk V -> Mk VI

    thoughts:
    * AGAIN only Mk IV and VI



    Sidenotes:
    - besides Kits NO Mk III or Mk V items upgradeable ? Why?
    - only Mk II Phasers and Photon Torps upgradable? -> FED Main Weapons get no upgrades?
    - lots of Plasma though...
    - only Quantum Tops VI and IV
    - i only see 3 or 4 more unavaible NPC's with an Shop i can not access yet.... this cant be all?
    - on the right side of Memory Alpha is no Store-NPC at all ? I guess there may be more to come



    I never played an MMO before so crafting is nothing i know at all... but from what i understand it should include searching & collecting of items (here anomalies) and upgrading Items you USE with them.
    Now in Diablo 2 you had Gems and Runes and a random number of Slots in the Weapons/Armor to put Gems/Runes in.
    There were diffrent types of Gems/Runes and they had diffrent effects on the Weapons, like adding fire,ice or poison damage / resistance, or whatever but you could actually decide what to do with your items IF they had the possibility to be upgraded. No Runeslots = No Upgrades.

    You had multiple sizes of Gems and could change 3 small ones for the next bigger one, same with Runes. You could even create Rune-WORDS which would get you a special Bonus.


    The System in D2 was simple but good.

    Easy to learn, hard to master.

    You could just use it on the go to give your items a small improvement or go completely Nuts with it, hunting for that last high level Rune to complete that Runeword for that Epic High End Weapon you found or traded a month ago.


    In STO you allways get the exact same item everyone else gets so it IS a STORE and not crafting, also you cant choose which items to upgrade because there is a VERY limited amount of items even possible to upgrade... i am using Mk V Phaser Beams right now and Mk V Photon Torps
    -> No way to upgrade them because everything is about Plasma and Mk V isn't even present.

    And since i have nothing that i can upgrade i cant progress on Memory Alpha to get those other Stores unlocked while i got 150+ RED anomalies of all 3 kinds by now... nothing to do with that stuff either.



    Also somebody still has to explain to me why the hell items are BOUND to my char if i use them?
    i want to trade the good stuff i dont use anymore... not only the stuff that i dont wanted in the first place.
    Not to mention that the Yes/No window everytime you select an unbound item gets pretty annoying if you dont care about trading.


    ...so that are my thoughts on "Crafting in STO*, still very disapointing while i NEVER played any other MMO far enough to see what "Crafting" should be all about anyway.


    Supplemental:

    For Immersion.... and "there is no money STAR TREK", i dont see ANY reason why i, as space exploring Captain, would keep Giga Quads of collected Data on my Ships Harddrive, only handing it out if i get something in return?
    Also it clutters my Inventory and Bank slots A LOT.
    Why not just do a counter for found anomalies that you brought to Memory Alpha, and if you have found enough you may upgrade certain Items for Energy Credits?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    @Z3R0B4NG:
    First off, welcome to MMOs!
    Yep, they’re definitely labeled in-game as Stores, but Cryptic refers to those stores as the game’s crafting system. I’m a software developer by trade, and I’ve been in more than a few meetings where someone’s said “the customers want feature X,” and I’ll say, “Well, Feature X is really just Feature Y with some different labels, so let’s just reuse what we have!”

    That’s what Cryptic’s done with crafting. They’ve taken advantage of the “convert credits/badges into items” scheme that is a store and used it to provide “combinations of crafting components into items” which is the soulless base of crafting. And, much like me, the developers are probably a little surprised with how upset some of us are - because on paper they're basically the same thing! With my post, I tried to provide what I think is missing – the soul, if you will – that would make it more fun or compelling.

    As for why items are “bound” to you: MMOs need to make sure that items “leave” the system somehow – especially good items. Let's say you get the best possible Widget for a level 10 character. And since it’s the best widget, it’s probably rare and that makes it pretty cool that you have one. Since it’s so good, you just keep passing that item to your other characters as the previous character outgrows the item. If one of those other characters got an extra one, he could pass it to a friend, who could then use it for all of his characters.

    As time goes on, eventually everyone would have one of those items. And, since everyone has one, it makes any widget that's not as good as that one basically worthless. And since those are all worthless, then, as far as you are concerned, they're not really there at all - which makes your "best" item simply "the" item, which isn't nearly as interesting.

    So, they bind them to the character – that way, when you outgrow it, you have to sell it to a vendor or throw it away, and it leaves the system, keeping the item rare (and thereby cool).

    Corefault
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ok binding items makes sense then...

    i guess Diablo 2 does not have this problem because Blizzard resets the closed Battle.net every 6 months or so, converting closed chars to the open battle.net where all those duped items are, makes the items worth much less and people have to start from scratch if they want to stay in the closed net.
    For an MMO this would be pretty bad i guess ^^


    B2T. the System they use looks fine to me in regards of the store mechanic's
    the problem i see is that it is just not very well thought out.

    As example, there could be one NPC only for upgrading phasers... all from MK I until ...uuuh whatever is MAX ^^
    but so that you could upgrade uncommon to rare and rare to very rare with the right amount of (rare and very rare) anomalies that you brought to Memory Alpha.
    BUT not common to uncommon, and let the usual shops only sell common items so not everybody runs arround with very rare stuff.

    You should not be able to max out with Crafting alone, so it should require very rare anomalies to get that last Phaser to the Very Rare state. The Ballance has to fit of course.

    The way it is now you can just upgrade a bunch of random items and that is it.
    It has the feel of a last minute job and probably is.
    I allready see me flying by those anomalies and ignoring them if those other 4 or 5 NPCs dont have any decent Upgrades to offer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    So...you want STO crafting to be just like WoW?... ;)
    Not a bad thesis, as game design theory goes, but I seriously doubt they'll be able to completely overhaul the underlying system to make it deeper. Let me see if I can offer simple fixes to address or bandage some of these points.
    Corefault wrote: »
    (1) Gathering component parts from resource nodes. But when you need antimatter? Well… let’s just hope it drops out of that reading over there. The system would benefit if different types of systems had more obvious concentrations of certain materials (not just by tier) – the type of which is determined by some obvious trait of the system, making it feel more “real.”

    First off, I totally, 100% agree with you. The storytelling, immersive aspect of gathering materials is completely non-existent...in fact, I'll go as far to say that it is NONSENSICAL. The quickest fix for this is simply to give me some backstory. Give me a reason why I'm finding this random TRIBBLE scattered throughout the galaxy and what Memory Alpha has to do with it. Keeping it for "further study" isn't good enough. Also, why would a pure academic institution be handing out phaser rifles in return for this data? Give me something that provides a coherent premise. Maybe do it as a Lt.Cmdr mission - unravel a tale about Ancient Ones or Cosmic Strings or even the Q Continuum!

    This requires minimal coding, if any and maybe a modest effort in crafting the Episode (after all, considering the kinds of TRIBBLE you're finding out there, this should be a pretty dang cool story!)
    (2) Learning recipes Getting a cool recipe as a reward/drop is “cool loot.” Actually learning a recipe gives you “bragging rights” and “character advancement.”

    I'm not a fan of random drops for loot. I don't mind having to EARN an item or recipe, but getting it from random drops is so very Everquest. Maybe if they re-enable Accolades, you could earn things this way -- in a predictable fashion around which I could plan my gaming sessions. See, the problem with random drops is that you're just as likely to pull an item within the first 5 minutes as you are in hours of play. I still have nightmares about killing bears in WoW for hours for no reward, chasing some elusive recipe. I don't have time for that TRIBBLE.
    (3) Crafting skills – with progress numbers Face it – this is a big component of any MMOG: Walking your character’s numbers forward on a treadmill for bragging rights and character advancement. And sometimes seeing a skill number advance is just the sugar cube you need to keep you walking forward for another hour.

    I agree in principle that if there is to be a tiered "crafting" system as there is now, that we should have some indication to our progress. So an immediate solution to this frustration is simply a progress bar on the vendor screen.

    However, I'm not a fan of numbers for their own sake. This seems to be the guiding thought behind the early crafting game in WoW and it drove me nuts. So I gather materials for an hour or two and then sit down to make items that are completely useless to me or anyone in my party only so I can turn around the sell them to a vendor (because everyone else is making these and thus they're not worth anything on auction) for pennies. Why? So I can make my numbers go up so I can make the next set of useless items.

    I don't believe players want a treadmill. That's called either work or exercise, and nobody wants that out of their MMO.
    (4) Crafting animations This is all about Immersion. We’re playing a computer game, not a pen-and-paper game, so you can’t rely on “well crafting and bartering are really the same - just use your imagination.” They need to look different to make it immersive. It’s harder to imagine you’re crafting when you look exactly like you’re buying something.

    Maybe put the crafting NPCs behind small counters. When you buy an item, there's a transporter beaming effect on the counter to represent an item being replicated into your kit. To avoid a clickfest, we'll just have to assume that the item beams into your storage immediately.
    (5) Items unique to crafting AND/OR items easier to get by crafting than other mechanics This gives you bragging rights and cool loot. If crafting doesn’t have some items that are better than quest rewards you’ll complete long before you could craft the items, what’s the point, really?

    This is my #1 beef with WoW and to some degree, STO as well. I spent quite a bit of time farming for materials. By the time I got to MA, I discovered that none of the items offered at the first contact were any good for me since I was already Lt.Cmdr. To add insult to injury, I couldn't afford most of them anyhow, despite the time I had put into farming. Worse yet, I hit problem #3 head on. I had no idea how to open up the next contact and spent quite some time "making" something, running down the hall, getting rejected, running back, making another item, running back... AAAAUGH!!!!!

    To add a Nelson "HAA-ha" to the insult and injury, I wasn't getting good mission loot drops to begin with, so it wasn't like I could console myself by the wicked cool random stuff in my bag. I dump batteries out the replicator just on principle now.
    (6) Multiple, exclusive crafting paths Bragging rights, character differentiation, and a bonus: alt-ability. If you can’t have all the crafting skills on one toon, you’re more likely to make alts to level the others. Encouraging alts == longer subscription lifetimes, so this one shoulda been a no-brainer.

    Easy fix - restrict the NPCs to officers of their same type. i.e., Tac officers can only buy from Tac NPCs. That could also fix the non-existent economy. As a Science Officer, I sure could use that upgraded Plasma Beam Array...but it's only available through the Tactical vendor. Hmm... However, some enterprising chap could put them on the Exchange for a nominal fee. I'd buy that for an energy credit!
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