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Will Cryptic do what Sony did with SWG?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
When Star Wars Galaxies first came out years ago, a lot of people tried the game and then started leaving, just like what is happening here. Then in a desperate attempt, Sony Online Entertainment implements Combat Upgrade and then New Game Enhancements. The result? The attempts backfired resulting in even more people quitting and the anger can still be heard this very day.

It is true that many customers here believe they will stay for a long time. Some have even purchased STO lifetime subscriptions. It is also true that many have quit and the game is not even a month old. Do you think Cryptic will look at all of this, devise a master plan to change the game dramatically like what Sony did with SWG, execute this plan as an attempt to win back customers, then the plan backfires because the revised game disappoints customers even more, and then the numbers go down the toilet like what happened to SWG?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    i sure hope not.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    At this point I'd say Cryptic's main goal should be simple.

    Content.

    And from there, imaginitive content, refreshing content, content that players find engaging and will talk about after the mission ends for a while.

    I'd say it's way way too soon to completely overhaul the game. Let alone with SWG did. That isn't of course to say that STO won't have controversial changes that will cause people to leave.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlackRifle wrote:
    When Star Wars Galaxies first came out years ago, a lot of people tried the game and then started leaving, just like what is happening here. Then in a desperate attempt, Sony Online Entertainment implements New Game Enhancements. The result? The attempt backfired resulting in even more people quitting and the anger can still be heard this very day.

    It is true that many customers here believe they will stay for a long time. Some have even purchased STO lifetime subscriptions. It is also true that many have quit and the game is not even a month old. Do you think Cryptic will look at all of this, devise a master plan to change the game dramatically like what Sony did with SWG, execute this plan as an attempt to win back customers, then the plan backfires because the revised game disappoints customers even more, and then the numbers go down the toilet like what happened to SWG?

    For one I see little evidence of a "lot" of people leaving. The server is still extremely busy and we've only been seeing our (active) Fleet numbers grow.

    As for will they pull and NGE. I very much doubt it. Combine the CU and NGE and Sony bascially re-wrote the entire game's mechanics. The CU introduced a level system, while the NGE just dumbed everything down and removed many of the sandbox elements. The only company that seems to be heading down that route is Blizzard.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    considering how legendary that SNAFU was, i doubt it.. Hopefully if they decide to conduct a major mechanic change, they will do something the player base is asking for, not something some marketing dork thinks is a 'good idea' that nobody asked for..

    but then, I am one of a seemingly minority who thinks that SWG's gameplay is better now than it was before.. I did not like the old skill system (but then i also didn't have a character near end game that got nerfed.. i played more after NGE than before.. before NGE i didn't like it and i quit after 5 levels)

    In any case, any mechanic change will make some players happy, and some players furious.. you can't please all of the people, all of the time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlackRifle wrote:
    When Star Wars Galaxies first came out years ago, a lot of people tried the game and then started leaving, just like what is happening here. Then in a desperate attempt, Sony Online Entertainment implements New Game Enhancements. The result? The attempt backfired resulting in even more people quitting and the anger can still be heard this very day.

    It is true that many customers here believe they will stay for a long time. Some have even purchased STO lifetime subscriptions. It is also true that many have quit and the game is not even a month old. Do you think Cryptic will look at all of this, devise a master plan to change the game dramatically like what Sony did with SWG, execute this plan as an attempt to win back customers, then the plan backfires because the revised game disappoints customers even more, and then the numbers go down the toilet like what happened to SWG?

    I don't think anyone will attempt what Sony and Julio Torres did with SWG. They lost nearly 80%, yes, 80% of their player base one to two weeks after the NGE was released. I think the MMO world understands that you cannot change an existing game and try to make it a "new" game. The NGE SWG is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing like the Pre-NGE SWG. Entirely different game, to the point that it could be called a different name.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    For STO a NGE would be an improvement.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    considering how legendary that SNAFU was, i doubt it.. Hopefully if they decide to conduct a major mechanic change, they will do something the player base is asking for, not something some marketing dork thinks is a 'good idea' that nobody asked for..

    but then, I am one of a seemingly minority who thinks that SWG's gameplay is better now than it was before.. I did not like the old skill system (but then i also didn't have a character near end game that got nerfed.. i played more after NGE than before.. before NGE i didn't like it and i quit after 5 levels)

    In any case, any mechanic change will make some players happy, and some players furious.. you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

    Ahh you came in during the " Combat Upgrade," which was the beginning of the downfall in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sorbek wrote: »
    For STO a NGE would be an improvement.

    Maybe in someones warped mind. Although its pretty sad that someone who doesn't seem to like the game hangs around the forums.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Though your assessment is basically correct of what happened at SWG, I can't help but point out that the it was users who wouldn't just leave, but insisted on lingering around to take the game down that really did the major damage to SWG post NGE... It is actually today one of the best MMO's ever made...

    (but don't say that to an NGE head.. because they will go postal even though they only played for a year and haven't played in four... and usually are just po'd that they lost their favorite sploits in the change, but can't say that out-loud)\...)

    STO is in danger of getting a crowd of bitter people that will go on every forum they can and rant maniacally about how awful Cryptic is though, even if it costs them their respect, because they value a game above that... Which is what *actually* happened to SWG... Crazy people who take things insanely serious...


    As for your slight at Lifetime subs... That's a silly notion, as people who got the lifetime subs knew why they were offered... Ranters just didn't stop and think about it... Look at this thread... proudly canceled (according to your signature)...yet you can't just walk away... You have no stake in this, but you insist on deriding those that do... That tells me that you are just throwing a fit to get free candy from Mumsy...

    (sorry , I know that's judgmental, but that is what it looks like and I am willing to say it, whereas most are just thinking it... you're welcome...)

    And before you start with the "u dont know SWG like I know SWG" litany...I've played SWG constantly since Beta, still have multiple accounts (I can do that because I have money and stuff) ...and I still thoroughly enjoy it...and the latest free content is pretty good... I hate the card game and even cancelled one of the subs over it... but still... the game is pretty awesome now...but NGE zealots don't know that because they got too egomaniacal about it and can never go back out of pride =D



    So yes ...STO is in danger... it's in danger of trophy kids going nuts and spending all of their lives trying to destroy a game even after they stopped playing it... and never really actually cared if they were right in the first place...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlackRifle wrote:
    When Star Wars Galaxies first came out years ago, a lot of people tried the game and then started leaving, just like what is happening here. Then in a desperate attempt, Sony Online Entertainment implements New Game Enhancements. The result? The attempt backfired resulting in even more people quitting and the anger can still be heard this very day.

    It is true that many customers here believe they will stay for a long time. Some have even purchased STO lifetime subscriptions. It is also true that many have quit and the game is not even a month old. Do you think Cryptic will look at all of this, devise a master plan to change the game dramatically like what Sony did with SWG, execute this plan as an attempt to win back customers, then the plan backfires because the revised game disappoints customers even more, and then the numbers go down the toilet like what happened to SWG?

    Stop trolling. As for SOE, they and LEC got greedy. They saw the success of wow, and LEC told them that SWG must have that sucess. Both parties failed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    For one I see little evidence of a "lot" of people leaving. The server is still extremely busy and we've only been seeing our (active) Fleet numbers grow.

    As for will they pull and NGE. I very much doubt it. Combine the CU and NGE and Sony bascially re-wrote the entire game's mechanics. The CU introduced a level system, while the NGE just dumbed everything down and removed many of the sandbox elements. The only company that seems to be heading down that route is Blizzard.

    Fully agree. I just dont understand how the same people that said SOE were terrible for Cu and NGE'ing SWG, are excited for cataclysm, when blizzard are more or less doing the exact same thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlackRifle wrote:
    When Star Wars Galaxies first came out years ago, a lot of people tried the game and then started leaving, just like what is happening here. Then in a desperate attempt, Sony Online Entertainment implements New Game Enhancements. The result? The attempt backfired resulting in even more people quitting and the anger can still be heard this very day.

    It is true that many customers here believe they will stay for a long time. Some have even purchased STO lifetime subscriptions. It is also true that many have quit and the game is not even a month old. Do you think Cryptic will look at all of this, devise a master plan to change the game dramatically like what Sony did with SWG, execute this plan as an attempt to win back customers, then the plan backfires because the revised game disappoints customers even more, and then the numbers go down the toilet like what happened to SWG?

    You really do not understand the history of the NGE TRIBBLE.

    The reason people started leaving SWG had more to do with the shattering of the ingame economy via the results of the Combat Upgrade AND the release of what it took to become a Jedi in the game and thus unlock a second character slot. In a mad rush to get their Jedi, "everyone" just started grinding out every single profession chain, flooding the market with TRIBBLE, where only the resource mongers grew wealthy and inflation destroyed the game.

    People lost the sense of community and working together in the sandbox and started leaving. The game lost its heart and soul.

    Then Lucas Arts, in its "infinite wisdom" decided to force SOE to make the game "more accessible" and by some rumors, maybe playable on the then Hot game console, the PS2 and the soon to be released PS3. So, Sony did what it was told, or it would have lost the license.

    That's how the NGE came about.

    So, will Cryptic do that to STO? How? STO is much more like the SWG NGE (and a significantly better gameplay design than the NGE) than it is anything even remotely like Vanilla SWG or even SWG CU.

    Will CBS decide to destroy the game with stupid changes because it just wants to? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I don't believe anyone can really tell what the future holds. However, I do believe that Cryptic will continue to add content to this game and provide expansions to it, over time and in two years, this game will be significantly better than it is today.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tedgp123 wrote: »

    Stop trolling.

    Why do so many people around here throw this as their first automatic response to a thread they don't like? I respectfully ask this question.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Nelzie wrote: »
    You really do not understand the history of the NGE TRIBBLE.

    I guess I don't. Thank you for explaining.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlackRifle wrote:
    Why do so many people around here throw this as their first automatic response to a thread they don't like? I respectfully ask this question.

    Most likely as you cancelled your subscription 10 days ago, while continuing to try and make a big thing of it (i.e. your sig). Yet still seem to want to hang around on the forum in an attempt to put the game down. No offence, but that's how it looks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    someGit wrote: »
    And before you start with the "u dont know SWG like I know SWG" litany...I've played SWG constantly since Beta, still have multiple accounts (I can do that because I have money and stuff) ...and I still thoroughly enjoy it...and the latest free content is pretty good... I hate the card game and even cancelled one of the subs over it... but still... the game is pretty awesome now...but NGE zealots don't know that because they got too egomaniacal about it and can never go back out of pride =D

    Just to set myself straight, I did play the NGE at first. I quit after two weeks, came back to check it out a year laterand left again. I tried it out again about a year and a half ago, and left it once more. So I can say, at least for myself, that I tried it, and for me and my taste the game was an empty shell of what it used to be. I can agree with this comment though, and I think that it is probably the most prevalent in the ranks of the Elder Jedi. But the ease of clicking a button and having a jedi is what ran a good bit of the community off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlownSi05 wrote: »
    Ahh you came in during the " Combat Upgrade," which was the beginning of the downfall in my opinion.

    While I didn't really like the CU/NGE (CU was ok I guess) the game was already in its downfall before the CU and the NGE. SOE didn't take a hugely successful game and ruin it... they tried to resuscitate a failing game and failed at it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Goodwind wrote:
    While I didn't really like the CU/NGE (CU was ok I guess) the game was already in its downfall before the CU and the NGE. SOE didn't take a hugely successful game and ruin it... they tried to resuscitate a failing game and failed at it.

    Yeah, I can agree with this. I did notice that to. I should have stated it that way. Nelzie made a good point about the economy, and that coupled with the influx of jedi was killing it a bit before the CU hit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Goodwind wrote:
    While I didn't really like the CU/NGE (CU was ok I guess) the game was already in its downfall before the CU and the NGE. SOE didn't take a hugely successful game and ruin it... they tried to resuscitate a failing game and failed at it.

    This is spot on. The abandoned "cities" (urban blight) dotting worlds on every server pre-CU were a pretty good indication of this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    SWG had been out 2.5 years before the NGE. STO hasn't even been out 2.5 weeks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    This is a new game. ALL new MMOs and games have bugs and inbalances. When WoW came out no one played hunters cause hunters sucked. In Guild Wars when Factions came out Assasins were TRIBBLE. In SWG when it released it was barren from content. Just hold out and wait for the balancing and content to begin. You may quit QQing when ready.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tedgp123 wrote: »

    Stop trolling. As for SOE, they and LEC got greedy. They saw the success of wow, and LEC told them that SWG must have that sucess. Both parties failed.

    wow you say? both CU and NGE were a long time before wow was ever successful, let alone released.

    no, SWG was bleeding subs from it's launch. it sold well at first, but didn't retain subs well. people left as fast they joined.

    instead of focusing on fixing the bugs, exploits, broken mechanics etc that were rampant pre CU, or perhaps as a way to fix them from the groun dup, SOE instituted the CU.

    many people quit over the CU and the **** poor content poor second expansion, but by the time the nge rolled around had regained sub levels comparable to to pre CU levels.

    but there were still rampant bugs and mechanic exploits, and other mmo's seemed to be doing better, coupled with the constant whining of the forum goers, SO made the mistake of listening to it's players, and made the NGE, which created a more themepark styled mmo in a manner of speaking, again casuign mass exodus of subs.

    in the years since SOE has regained many subs, although i doubt they are at preCU or preNGE levels. the trial is pretty bad, is single player and takes an hour to go through, even though it's for 14 days. i believe all the expansions are now free, and i wouldn't be surprised if the start up cost has been reduced dramatically.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlownSi05 wrote: »
    Yeah, I can agree with this. I did notice that to. I should have stated it that way. Nelzie made a good point about the economy, and that coupled with the influx of jedi was killing it a bit before the CU hit.

    JTL didn't do it much good either, at least not initially. A lot left in the disgust, when they annoucned they were pulling all other development and bug fixes, so they could focus on the expansion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlownSi05 wrote: »
    Yeah, I can agree with this. I did notice that to. I should have stated it that way. Nelzie made a good point about the economy, and that coupled with the influx of jedi was killing it a bit before the CU hit.

    I really think the economy was ruined, not so much by the Jedi grid or other profession grind, but by the insanely easy way it was to make cash. You could make, what, about 8-10k a mission, get in a big group and pull down a dozen in one direction and blast them out relatively quickly.

    Then you had early successful crafters who rolled in the big money (armor and weapons crafters) and they would drive up the market by out-biding anyone else for materials. It seemed that billions ended up in the hands of just a few.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    Most likely as you cancelled your subscription 10 days ago, while continuing to try and make a big thing of it (i.e. your sig). Yet still seem to want to hang around on the forum in an attempt to put the game down. No offence, but that's how it looks.

    Okay, I have removed my signature. Now how does that change or impact anything?
    And there is nothing wrong with hanging around and posting in the forum until your subscription expires. Unless I am ejected from here, don't I have the same privilege to post as much as you guys do?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BlownSi05 wrote: »
    Just to set myself straight, I did play the NGE at first. I quit after two weeks, came back to check it out a year laterand left again. I tried it out again about a year and a half ago, and left it once more. So I can say, at least for myself, that I tried it, and for me and my taste the game was an empty shell of what it used to be. I can agree with this comment though, and I think that it is probably the most prevalent in the ranks of the Elder Jedi. But the ease of clicking a button and having a jedi is what ran a good bit of the community off.

    Yup.. I have an Elder Jedi actually (and haven't played it in a long time, though finally started being okay with it 'cause no one has an SD crystal anymore so I felt all cool =D) and that watering down of Jedi was a BIG mistake... No doubt there...

    And I'm not saying NGE was a good idea , it was horribly done... But it was a rash reaction to something that had already happened in the game...

    If you'll recall (if you went to any SWG forums in mid-to-late 2004), on Ebay there were no less than three SWG players selling sploit guides to get Jedi, and upwards of ten on sploiting pretty much any prof ...

    There was a huuuuge market for exploiting pre-NGE mechanics... people left in droves because it was meaningless to unlock anyway... or anything else really... there was a sploit for ever-single thing....the game became a joke LONG before NGE... conveniently, no one seems to remember that now...

    NGE was a lousy answer to a lousy problem...

    The game today is far better all-around, but the reputation lingers...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Paxus wrote:
    This is spot on. The abandoned "cities" (urban blight) dotting worlds on every server pre-CU were a pretty good indication of this.

    SWG was pretty fun if you were into crafting and resource harvesting. Hell, you could spend hours just maintaining and placing harvesters. But it was prety thin on PvE content.. other than mission terminal stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Goodwind wrote:
    SOE didn't take a hugely successful game and ruin it... they tried to resuscitate a failing game and failed at it.

    That's why I started this thread. I wanted to discuss if people thought Cryptic may go down that path.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    wow you say? both CU and NGE were a long time before wow was ever successful, let alone released.

    no, SWG was bleeding subs from it's launch. it sold well at first, but didn't retain subs well. people left as fast they joined.

    instead of focusing on fixing the bugs, exploits, broken mechanics etc that were rampant pre CU, or perhaps as a way to fix them from the groun dup, SOE instituted the CU.

    many people quit over the CU and the **** poor content poor second expansion, but by the time the nge rolled around had regained sub levels comparable to to pre CU levels.

    but there were still rampant bugs and mechanic exploits, and other mmo's seemed to be doing better, coupled with the constant whining of the forum goers, SO made the mistake of listening to it's players, and made the NGE, which created a more themepark styled mmo in a manner of speaking, again casuign mass exodus of subs.

    in the years since SOE has regained many subs, although i doubt they are at preCU or preNGE levels. the trial is pretty bad, is single player and takes an hour to go through, even though it's for 14 days. i believe all the expansions are now free, and i wouldn't be surprised if the start up cost has been reduced dramatically.

    What? Rofl. April 2005 = Cu, Nov 2005 = NGe. Wow nov 2004.
    SOE + lEC took note of the polish and game mechanics + the hype from wow beta, and under a decision from LEC, SOE were told to redesign the game to meet the new requirements.
    Seriously, stop posting and start thinking.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    Maybe in someones warped mind. Although its pretty sad that someone who doesn't seem to like the game hangs around the forums.

    1st. I put up with the game because its Star Trek. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of problems and that Cryptic couldn't have done a LOT better.

    2nd. Don't worry about why I'm here just know that I am.
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