A big thing at the moment is the current complaints over uniform customisation, some of which I share (FEMALEGLOVES!!!!!111oneoneeleven!11exclamationmark1) and people think that SW:TOR is going to be oh so perfect with regards to everything.
Let me let you in on a little secret, currently with Mass Effect 2 BioWare has completely dropped the ball with the armour choices for players, in that all except the default N7 have unremovable helmets. Due to the nature of the game this is a big issue resulting on nobody using these armours, and BioWare keep releasing more.
BioWare's response to this universal outcry? Shameless lies about how it had to be that way and can't be changed; anyone with even basic knowledge of 3D modelling and game design knows these are complete and utter lies.
So there you go. BioWare, the supposed great hope of mmos, can't be honest about their own mistakes in a single player game, and refuse to fix them. Meanwhile Cryptic actually has been listening and at least trying to fix things based on feedback.
I think people praise Bioware more for their innovative dialogue system and ability to tell stories. Cryptic on the other hand, has always been good when it comes to customizeability - all the way back to CoH.
I think people praise Bioware more for their innovative dialogue system and ability to tell stories. Cryptic on the other hand, has always been good when it comes to customizeability - all the way back to CoH.
Neither of which has any real impact on mmos.
The point here is BioWare are being dishonest about what should be a trivial and easily fixable issue, which instead they're turning into a quagmire of hate and frustration due to their refusal to listen.
Do people honestly think they'll run an mmo any better?
Neither of which has any real impact on mmos.
The point here is BioWare are being dishonest about what should be a trivial and easily fixable issue, which instead they're turning into a quagmire of hate and frustration due to their refusal to listen.
Do people honestly think they'll run an mmo any better?
I'm skeptical but I think the story aspect of it will be interesting for a while atleast (until it's over). I don't know what kind of replay value the game would have .. and I don't like the idea of making multiple characters.
I think most companies fail when it comes to maintaining an MMO and appeasing their subscribers. Blizzard seems to do a pretty good job of it though, but they have more than enough money, resources, and expertise to do so.. :cool:
Even Blizzard have only gone on for so long by desperately shoving expansions in player's faces and cannibalizing their own lore (Lich King, tyrannical uberfiend, destroyer of natons, now raid fodder) and they're still running out of steam.
Neither of which has any real impact on mmos.
The point here is BioWare are being dishonest about what should be a trivial and easily fixable issue, which instead they're turning into a quagmire of hate and frustration due to their refusal to listen.
Do people honestly think they'll run an mmo any better?
Ill take helm only armour over a poorly designed game lacking content.
To the OP: on some grounds, I agree.
Honestly, one should never compare a bird in hand, to one in the bush. That which is unseen is always a matter of expectation, not truth.
Such a comparison should only be done... when both birds are in the hand.
How can you praise anything with lucas arts involved in it, look at what his company BS did to galaxies and yes do the research Lucas arts retained creative license in galaxies as they have in TOR so what you can expect is possibly a strong launch with before long lucas getting involved an TRIBBLE everything up in the name of money an ****ing that game down the drain also.
BioWare's response to this universal outcry? Shameless lies about how it had to be that way and can't be changed; anyone with even basic knowledge of 3D modelling and game design knows these are complete and utter lies.
I do 3D modeling. Professionally even.
If the secondary slots were weren't originally designed at all to be customized, depending on how they have it set up it might be a pain in the TRIBBLE to shoehorn the ability in.
It's not like you can just flip a magic switch and make it happen.
While it's never "impossible", it may very well be "difficult" and not something Bioware is interested in re-hashing, especially since the game already launched.
PR-wise, it is in fact better to say "We can't do it", rather than "We could do it, but it's too much of a pain, especially given that the game already launched and anyhow it's only a small percentage of the customer base that has an issue with it so it's not worth the effort."
Just remember EA owns Bioware now. And I hate EA with a passion. So any shortcomings of any future Bioware games, I'm throwing the blame on the Evil A**holes at EA. =D
I agree though, Mass Effect 2 would have been even more awesome with removable helmets, etc, but I love the N7 armor so it doesnt bother me too much. I'm more concerned with the lack of weapons like ME 1 had...
SWTOR WILL NOT be perfect, and people will be upset/let down by it. You may not, but someone WILL. Whether or not Bioware listens to its customers won't be evident until the game is released. However I expect TOR to be more of singleplayer MMO than STO is now, thats just how most of their games seem to be. I'm sure there are exceptions.
As for STO, I like it, I think its fun, but it too has its issues. And people WILL leave once they hit the cap and find theres little left to do.
It's a truism in the mmo community that the most highly praised MMOs are the ones that haven't been released yet. That's simply because they haven't yet dashed people's expectations -- haven't had the chance yet. BioWare is a good development shop, but Lucas Arts is involved, and Lucas Arts absolutely ruined Star Wars Galaxies. I'm rather skeptical. I expect it will be a fun game, but we'll see when it arrives.
Or you just missed it.
But since you obviously REQUIRE an explanation.
Point 1:
People whine about Cryptic because they're late on some cosmetic features, though they've been adding more as they've gone along.
Meanwhile BioWare, with a similar but smaller and more easily resolvable cosmetic issue, have chosen to IGNORE the wishes of the playerbase, and LIE TO THEM.
These are the people some whiners here are lauding as the makers of the perfect mmo. Yeah right.
Point 2:
The sheer absurdity of praising an mmo before it's even left closed beta. Compounded by point 1.
Or you just missed it.
But since you obviously REQUIRE an explanation.
Point 1:
People whine about Cryptic because they're late on some cosmetic features, though they've been adding more as they've gone along.
Meanwhile BioWare, with a similar but smaller and more easily resolvable cosmetic issue, have chosen to IGNORE the wishes of the playerbase, and LIE TO THEM.
These are the people some whiners here are lauding as the makers of the perfect mmo. Yeah right.
Point 2:
The sheer absurdity of praising an mmo before it's even left closed beta. Compounded by point 1.
No, I got it.
I just understand PR. And game programming.
"More easily resolvable" isn't necessarily true. None of us know how they structured their armor code. It might be easy. It might be a cast iron pain in the TRIBBLE. We don't know. To claim you do know is you just assuming stuff or outright making things up.
PR wise, it is, in fact, better to just say "we can't do it" then admit "we can but don't want to". Can you imagine how much more uproar they'd get if the said the latter? The former projects that it's not your choice. The latter projects a lack of caring about the customers.
I also find the people complaining at Cryptic to be silly too, mind you.
And I agreed with your second point in my first post.
Or you just missed it.
But since you obviously REQUIRE an explanation.
Point 1:
People whine about Cryptic because they're late on some cosmetic features, though they've been adding more as they've gone along.
Meanwhile BioWare, with a similar but smaller and more easily resolvable cosmetic issue, have chosen to IGNORE the wishes of the playerbase, and LIE TO THEM.
These are the people some whiners here are lauding as the makers of the perfect mmo. Yeah right.
Point 2:
The sheer absurdity of praising an mmo before it's even left closed beta. Compounded by point 1.
Whose saying they're perfect?
At least they're taking their time and trying to do it right.
It's also their first MMO so I expect problems.
I don't play ME2 but I've heard lots of good things about so far.
I am a bit worried about SWTOR. Bioware is now claiming they will have space gameplay, but I don't see how they could possibly build a decent space engine in a year. It will likely end up being in the form of cut-scenes like KOTOR. Too bad really, I am almost as big a Star Wars fan as I am a Star Trek fan and I really want TOR to be a good MMO, but so far it's looking like it'll be a Massively Singleplayer Online Roleplaying Game. Well, at least we'll get full dialogue and keep the relationship tools from KOTOR.
I agree with the basis of your post--praising a game that is not even in beta against a game that is out is slightly just this side of stupid.
This.
Also, I love Bioware as much as the next guy, but let's face it, they've made some bone-headed mistakes too.
Points to consider:
1. They have "great" story! - No, they have great presentation and a polished script coupled with music that matches. Semantics, I know, but worth pointing out. http://i50.tinypic.com/30c0nex.jpg
2. They never have shoddy programming! - KOTOR 1 for the PC was unplayable in certain parts until it was patched. Mass Effect 1 - elevators anyone? Unfortunately, Iit's been too long since Neverwinter Nights and B's Gate but I recall whining about a couple of annoying glitches early on for both of them too.
3. They always make sure that you don't need a respec! (in other words, every part of the system's well-documented to the player immediately) - Pretty much no. Too many examples to list here. In relation to the KOTOR franchise, the first game allowed you to level up too much as a non-jedi and thus lose out on pumping points to the jedi skills once you got them.
4. Dialogue options / morality choices! - Either be a patron saint of doormats or a dog-killing avatar of douche-baggery, great choices there. They got it better in ME 1 early on, but it eventually degraded to "pro-everyone" vs "pro-human i hate all aliens!". Haven't played ME2 yet to comment on that.
I pre-praise the bioware game coz I have NEVER played a bad bioware game. granted it's their first mmo, but it's not the developers first MMO. When bioware set up their Austin studio they hired lots of experienced mmo devs from different companies including SoE (oh dear).
What I see as the MMO problem today is that as good as all copy the safe and explored WOW formula (kudos to Cryptic on not doing that). And Bioware doesn't either. What I'm hoping bioware will succed with is draiwing me in with great story and acting.
Problem with mmo's are the repetition, so you "need" to use story to keep the player focused and into the game. In Star Trek I had this feeling until I hit lieutenant 5 and it was over. You can only slaughter so many Klingons before it gets old unless a story "give you a reason" to do so. If not it just repeating what you just did in basicly the same mission with a different misson name.
This game is rushed and thats not Crypics fault. I think they have done a great job in VERY little time. Very little. Its that Pepetrual motion squad jerking around for years without getting anywhere's fault. The publisher had to get the game out and pulled the plug on Pepetrual, in came cryptic in warp 9.9 and finished the core of the game in record time. But even though the work was effective, it still doesn't make it a great game overall coz quite frankly it not DONE ( yes yes , MMO's are never done, only sunseted)
Bioware on the other hand have beeen in full production for 5 years already and is still over a year from launch. They have understood that to stand any chance of taken over the WOW trone the game has to be comtent packed, revolutionary and polished from the get go.
I think it's going to be great. Bioware + Star wars will always be a win in my book. Favorite dev, favorite IP. Oh the joy, can't wait!
How can you praise anything with lucas arts involved in it, look at what his company BS did to galaxies and yes do the research Lucas arts retained creative license in galaxies as they have in TOR so what you can expect is possibly a strong launch with before long lucas getting involved an TRIBBLE everything up in the name of money an ****ing that game down the drain also.
Ok, this is simply not true. The downfall of galaxies was Sony online running it, not lucas arts. There was even debate from Lucas arts on spending money to pull the handling away from SOE and giving it to someone else. If SOE hadn't continually pandered to the lowest level it would have been fine. All MMO's start of interesting to some degree or another, people whine about complexity and or difficult until the game is sufficiently dumbed down, or made "fair" to the point of stupidity, then eventually, the whole thing is nerfed to make room for "new" subscribers so they can be on a level playing ground with players who have played loyally for years.
Bottom line is that when you try to please everyone you will end up ruining it for EVERYONE. There is simply no such thing as a million people being content with something the way it is. As for the costume problems, really? Is it really that big a deal? I realize some people like to spend more time creating a character's appearance than playing the game, but can't you play digital barbie on the side until it's fixed or changed? I like the diversity of options so far. Everyone in starfleet is SUPPOSED to look similar! Uniforms? Military? Ring any bells? I like customizing too, but I would much rather have playability. And anyone who says storyline isn't important to an MMO, well, I think you are wrong, IMO. A good storyline along with multiple options gives it a feeling of reality that pictures and graphics never will. I guess I'm just old. My first MMO was ALL words, not graphics at all, just dialogue, text, and descriptions. It was SO addictive. I guess people are more concerned with looks now, and don't care about gameplay...
At least they're taking their time and trying to do it right.
It's also their first MMO so I expect problems.
I don't play ME2 but I've heard lots of good things about so far.
You know that the MMO which is completely voiced over needs considerable amount of time? we don't know yet if it will be shipped with complete list of features or not.
I am a bit worried about SWTOR. Bioware is now claiming they will have space gameplay, but I don't see how they could possibly build a decent space engine in a year. It will likely end up being in the form of cut-scenes like KOTOR. Too bad really, I am almost as big a Star Wars fan as I am a Star Trek fan and I really want TOR to be a good MMO, but so far it's looking like it'll be a Massively Singleplayer Online Roleplaying Game. Well, at least we'll get full dialogue and keep the relationship tools from KOTOR.
Well considering how much of the game is supposedly done I'm not gonna sweat it. It's probably the main reason they are shooting for spring 2011
A big thing at the moment is the current complaints over uniform customisation, some of which I share (FEMALEGLOVES!!!!!111oneoneeleven!11exclamationmark1) and people think that SW:TOR is going to be oh so perfect with regards to everything.
Let me let you in on a little secret, currently with Mass Effect 2 BioWare has completely dropped the ball with the armour choices for players, in that all except the default N7 have unremovable helmets. Due to the nature of the game this is a big issue resulting on nobody using these armours, and BioWare keep releasing more.
BioWare's response to this universal outcry? Shameless lies about how it had to be that way and can't be changed; anyone with even basic knowledge of 3D modelling and game design knows these are complete and utter lies.
So there you go. BioWare, the supposed great hope of mmos, can't be honest about their own mistakes in a single player game, and refuse to fix them. Meanwhile Cryptic actually has been listening and at least trying to fix things based on feedback.
I know nothing about ME2, but it is very common for idiots who are playing Game A to shout out that upcoming Game B will be the answer to their prayers, be the ultimate game, get them laid, solve all their personal problems, etc. We got through this cycle with every MMO release.
Comments
Neither of which has any real impact on mmos.
The point here is BioWare are being dishonest about what should be a trivial and easily fixable issue, which instead they're turning into a quagmire of hate and frustration due to their refusal to listen.
Do people honestly think they'll run an mmo any better?
I'm skeptical but I think the story aspect of it will be interesting for a while atleast (until it's over). I don't know what kind of replay value the game would have .. and I don't like the idea of making multiple characters.
I think most companies fail when it comes to maintaining an MMO and appeasing their subscribers. Blizzard seems to do a pretty good job of it though, but they have more than enough money, resources, and expertise to do so.. :cool:
-np
Ill take helm only armour over a poorly designed game lacking content.
Honestly, one should never compare a bird in hand, to one in the bush. That which is unseen is always a matter of expectation, not truth.
Such a comparison should only be done... when both birds are in the hand.
Aye!
Same here.
I'm likely to stick with STO due to budget/time constraints and a greater love of ST than SW.
Still, I like Bioware too and wish them luck.
They will doubtless have their own pros and cons to TOR just as Cryptic has its pros and cons for STO.
I do 3D modeling. Professionally even.
If the secondary slots were weren't originally designed at all to be customized, depending on how they have it set up it might be a pain in the TRIBBLE to shoehorn the ability in.
It's not like you can just flip a magic switch and make it happen.
While it's never "impossible", it may very well be "difficult" and not something Bioware is interested in re-hashing, especially since the game already launched.
PR-wise, it is in fact better to say "We can't do it", rather than "We could do it, but it's too much of a pain, especially given that the game already launched and anyhow it's only a small percentage of the customer base that has an issue with it so it's not worth the effort."
-np
I agree though, Mass Effect 2 would have been even more awesome with removable helmets, etc, but I love the N7 armor so it doesnt bother me too much. I'm more concerned with the lack of weapons like ME 1 had...
SWTOR WILL NOT be perfect, and people will be upset/let down by it. You may not, but someone WILL. Whether or not Bioware listens to its customers won't be evident until the game is released. However I expect TOR to be more of singleplayer MMO than STO is now, thats just how most of their games seem to be. I'm sure there are exceptions.
As for STO, I like it, I think its fun, but it too has its issues. And people WILL leave once they hit the cap and find theres little left to do.
edit* also by the time SWTOR comes out, STo will have alot more content.
I addressed the point in my second post.
And the point was silly anyhow.
-np
Wish I had access to the old forums and the pre-beta praises of this game an how its better than everything else
Or you just missed it.
But since you obviously REQUIRE an explanation.
Point 1:
People whine about Cryptic because they're late on some cosmetic features, though they've been adding more as they've gone along.
Meanwhile BioWare, with a similar but smaller and more easily resolvable cosmetic issue, have chosen to IGNORE the wishes of the playerbase, and LIE TO THEM.
These are the people some whiners here are lauding as the makers of the perfect mmo. Yeah right.
Point 2:
The sheer absurdity of praising an mmo before it's even left closed beta. Compounded by point 1.
No, I got it.
I just understand PR. And game programming.
"More easily resolvable" isn't necessarily true. None of us know how they structured their armor code. It might be easy. It might be a cast iron pain in the TRIBBLE. We don't know. To claim you do know is you just assuming stuff or outright making things up.
PR wise, it is, in fact, better to just say "we can't do it" then admit "we can but don't want to". Can you imagine how much more uproar they'd get if the said the latter? The former projects that it's not your choice. The latter projects a lack of caring about the customers.
I also find the people complaining at Cryptic to be silly too, mind you.
And I agreed with your second point in my first post.
Perhaps you missed it.
-np
Whose saying they're perfect?
At least they're taking their time and trying to do it right.
It's also their first MMO so I expect problems.
I don't play ME2 but I've heard lots of good things about so far.
This.
Also, I love Bioware as much as the next guy, but let's face it, they've made some bone-headed mistakes too.
Points to consider:
1. They have "great" story! - No, they have great presentation and a polished script coupled with music that matches. Semantics, I know, but worth pointing out. http://i50.tinypic.com/30c0nex.jpg
2. They never have shoddy programming! - KOTOR 1 for the PC was unplayable in certain parts until it was patched. Mass Effect 1 - elevators anyone? Unfortunately, Iit's been too long since Neverwinter Nights and B's Gate but I recall whining about a couple of annoying glitches early on for both of them too.
3. They always make sure that you don't need a respec! (in other words, every part of the system's well-documented to the player immediately) - Pretty much no. Too many examples to list here. In relation to the KOTOR franchise, the first game allowed you to level up too much as a non-jedi and thus lose out on pumping points to the jedi skills once you got them.
4. Dialogue options / morality choices! - Either be a patron saint of doormats or a dog-killing avatar of douche-baggery, great choices there. They got it better in ME 1 early on, but it eventually degraded to "pro-everyone" vs "pro-human i hate all aliens!". Haven't played ME2 yet to comment on that.
What I see as the MMO problem today is that as good as all copy the safe and explored WOW formula (kudos to Cryptic on not doing that). And Bioware doesn't either. What I'm hoping bioware will succed with is draiwing me in with great story and acting.
Problem with mmo's are the repetition, so you "need" to use story to keep the player focused and into the game. In Star Trek I had this feeling until I hit lieutenant 5 and it was over. You can only slaughter so many Klingons before it gets old unless a story "give you a reason" to do so. If not it just repeating what you just did in basicly the same mission with a different misson name.
This game is rushed and thats not Crypics fault. I think they have done a great job in VERY little time. Very little. Its that Pepetrual motion squad jerking around for years without getting anywhere's fault. The publisher had to get the game out and pulled the plug on Pepetrual, in came cryptic in warp 9.9 and finished the core of the game in record time. But even though the work was effective, it still doesn't make it a great game overall coz quite frankly it not DONE ( yes yes , MMO's are never done, only sunseted)
Bioware on the other hand have beeen in full production for 5 years already and is still over a year from launch. They have understood that to stand any chance of taken over the WOW trone the game has to be comtent packed, revolutionary and polished from the get go.
I think it's going to be great. Bioware + Star wars will always be a win in my book. Favorite dev, favorite IP. Oh the joy, can't wait!
Ok, this is simply not true. The downfall of galaxies was Sony online running it, not lucas arts. There was even debate from Lucas arts on spending money to pull the handling away from SOE and giving it to someone else. If SOE hadn't continually pandered to the lowest level it would have been fine. All MMO's start of interesting to some degree or another, people whine about complexity and or difficult until the game is sufficiently dumbed down, or made "fair" to the point of stupidity, then eventually, the whole thing is nerfed to make room for "new" subscribers so they can be on a level playing ground with players who have played loyally for years.
Bottom line is that when you try to please everyone you will end up ruining it for EVERYONE. There is simply no such thing as a million people being content with something the way it is. As for the costume problems, really? Is it really that big a deal? I realize some people like to spend more time creating a character's appearance than playing the game, but can't you play digital barbie on the side until it's fixed or changed? I like the diversity of options so far. Everyone in starfleet is SUPPOSED to look similar! Uniforms? Military? Ring any bells? I like customizing too, but I would much rather have playability. And anyone who says storyline isn't important to an MMO, well, I think you are wrong, IMO. A good storyline along with multiple options gives it a feeling of reality that pictures and graphics never will. I guess I'm just old. My first MMO was ALL words, not graphics at all, just dialogue, text, and descriptions. It was SO addictive. I guess people are more concerned with looks now, and don't care about gameplay...
You know that the MMO which is completely voiced over needs considerable amount of time? we don't know yet if it will be shipped with complete list of features or not.
Well considering how much of the game is supposedly done I'm not gonna sweat it. It's probably the main reason they are shooting for spring 2011
I know nothing about ME2, but it is very common for idiots who are playing Game A to shout out that upcoming Game B will be the answer to their prayers, be the ultimate game, get them laid, solve all their personal problems, etc. We got through this cycle with every MMO release.