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Cryptic is banning critics to slow the bleeding

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So.... Say you decide to speak your mind on the forums and say the game needs work, you wish you had a refund, or it's just plain garbage? This may incur you warning or an infraction worth x points. Taken from the web site. http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=120&a=3

[/i]5 to 9 points earn you a 3 day suspension.
10 to 19 points earn you a 7 day suspension
20 or more points earn you a permanent ban.

Cryptic Studios shall, in its sole discretion, identify infractions and assign the points value for each infraction. Cryptic Studios reserves the right in its sole discretion to change the point value assigned to any infraction at any time. The following list sets forth some of the more common types of infractions. This list is not intended to be a complete list of all infractions.[/i]

Earlier this morning in a thread that was complaining about lack of klingon players, and general lack of pvp quality in STO he decided to chime in and mention he found a way players can grief each other. No warnings, no infraction points. The reason given "Posting exploits/cheats/hacks" Date to be lifted: "Never". I just have to laugh at the desperation Cryptic is showing with idiotic stunts like this. They have no clue who he networks with, or how it might impact them if all of a sudden people he knew were on the fence magically cancel their accounts.

Needless to say this still irks me slightly because someone was abusing their power just to get a critic off their forums. This is one company I won't be dealing with in the future, but I'll happily still advocate the flaws of STO on their forums if they don't get their sh*t together. They used a questionable post as an excuse to give him 20 points at once. This is just a friendly warning to others why might want to stand up and speak your mind. They are waiting for an excuse to silence you. They only care about your money, not the customer. I'm ashamed to support STO and Cryptic today because of their conduct. Don't count on it in the future.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One problem with your theory, that post was made in 2008.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    While I think most of the things outlined in their forum policy (as you posted) make perfect sense, the best way to draw attention to exploits is to make them common knowledge.

    I think the "smart" exploiters keep it to themselves as long as possible. Those people that want it gone are more likely to spill the beans. Punishing them for detailing how exploits work seems shortsighted and counterproductive.

    /this is not defamation, but criticism, which is not expressly forbidden in the stated rules
    //2008 rules are still relevant unless they have stated they aren't
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One problem with your theory, that post was made in 2008.

    And is valid until 2028 :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Brigadoom wrote:
    And is valid until 2028 :confused:
    It's the way the global announcement system works on vBulletin. Without the second date the announcement would remove itself at the end of the day it was posted.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rayin wrote:
    While I think most of the things outlined in their forum policy (as you posted) make perfect sense, the best way to draw attention to exploits is to make them common knowledge.

    I think the "smart" exploiters keep it to themselves as long as possible. Those people that want it gone are more likely to spill the beans. Punishing them for detailing how exploits work seems shortsighted and counterproductive.

    /this is not defamation, but criticism, which is not expressly forbidden in the stated rules
    //2008 rules are still relevant unless they have stated they aren't

    Well, you've covered all your bases on not breaking the rules, except for the part where you announce what the exploit is/was/whatever. That part, which is the part the other guy got banned forever for, is sort of in your first post.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    Well, you've covered all your bases on not breaking the rules, except for the part where you announce what the exploit is/was/whatever. That part, which is the part the other guy got banned forever for, is sort of in your first post.

    Yea check the red. VERY good point.

    OP, Im not against you.

    But I dont know if you care or not, but its also against Cryptics policy not to talk about disciplinary actions. Which is what the whole thread is about.

    If you want to avoid infractions ( I personally dont like them) I would just delete or redo the whole post. Otherwise, I kind of feel you are asking for it. And I dont want to see anybody get infractions or bans. They suck.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yea check the red. VERY good point.

    OP, Im not against you.

    But I dont know if you care or not, but its also against Cryptics policy not to talk about disciplinary actions. Which is what the whole thread is about.

    If you want to avoid infractions ( I personally dont like them) I would just delete or redo the whole post. Otherwise, I kind of feel you are asking for it. And I dont want to see anybody get infractions or bans. They suck.

    to be on the safe side I did as you suggested. thank you both for the considerate warning :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    It's really just common sense to refrain from posting how to exploit in the game. Tell Cryptic about it.

    Posting it will only ensure that people will be doing it en masse. Granted, that may get the attention of the devs very quickly, but it will also cause a lot of problems in the meantime.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hrmm obviously people can't say anything nice and keep their mouth's shut, I say I'm with Cryptic on this, if you don't like the game -simply- leave, some company's like Cryptic are proud of their games, it hurts their feelings whne somebody says that this glame is flawed, well they are trying their best. Not caring about their customers, and only money. pffft! yeah right, somebody is just p-d'O.




    To the OP, how would you like it if you made a game, put so much work into it and some customers didn't like it and said that you don't care about your customers, and only about money--hrmmmm?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rayin wrote:
    While I think most of the things outlined in their forum policy (as you posted) make perfect sense, the best way to draw attention to exploits is to make them common knowledge.

    I think the "smart" exploiters keep it to themselves as long as possible. Those people that want it gone are more likely to spill the beans. Punishing them for detailing how exploits work seems shortsighted and counterproductive.

    /this is not defamation, but criticism, which is not expressly forbidden in the stated rules
    //2008 rules are still relevant unless they have stated they aren't

    You make the larger point of transparency, and those that believe in holding knowledge for self gain, versus those that believe in education or sharing knowledge.

    However in the specific instance, giving the developers time to close the exploit first, then if that is not done, transparency kicks in to highlight the issue.


    Your comment also says 'smart' exploiters, without a moral idea, leading to Anne Rand style thought where intelligence is glorified without any thought of the morality of the choices, The exploiters are basically being lawless, but 'smarts' not having a moral factor, can be used for either lawlessness or lawfulness.

    And on a totally irrelevant side note, someone stole my Ipod at the bar last night. shrug. :) Have to go buy another one now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The brave Troll posting his BS on a slow GM coverage day. :rolleyes:

    In my mind Cryptic is far too lenient with some of the dillweeds that continue their idiotic campaign of hate,
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ive been very very critical of Cryptic, and never been banned. Here, have a tin foil hat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I complain... all... the... time.
    Picking out the problems, failings and often point fingers... but do so constructively.

    No infractions.
    Carry on people... nothing to see here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    It's really just common sense to refrain from posting how to exploit in the game. Tell Cryptic about it.

    Posting it will only ensure that people will be doing it en masse. Granted, that may get the attention of the devs very quickly, but it will also cause a lot of problems in the meantime.
    This sounds like common sense, but experience doesn't bear this out. People will do it en masse whether you post it or not. It takes public attention to get something fixed.

    Now that doesn't mean this is the right place to bring that public attention. It's clearly not, as Cryptic gets to set the rules in their forum.

    But if you think someone not posting it is going to reduce the people doing it and that a mere email or ticket is the best way to get it fixed, that's all not true and every bit of evidence suggests the reverse. If you found it, so have other people, and they will exploit it silently. It often will not get fixed until there's a public cry for a fix, and it takes public knowledge of the problem for there to be such a cry.

    These are lessons learned painfully. If you're interested in the evidence, see these links:
    http://www.wildernesscoast.org/bib/disclosure-by-date.html
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JoelKatz wrote: »
    This sounds like common sense, but experience doesn't bear this out. People will do it en masse whether you post it or not. It takes public attention to get something fixed.

    Now that doesn't mean this is the right place to bring that public attention. It's clearly not, as Cryptic gets to set the rules in their forum.

    But if you think someone not posting it is going to reduce the people doing it and that a mere email or ticket is the best way to get it fixed, that's all not true and every bit of evidence suggests the reverse. If you found it, so have other people, and they will exploit it silently. It often will not get fixed until there's a public cry for a fix, and it takes public knowledge of the problem for there to be such a cry.

    These are lessons learned painfully.

    One can mention in a thread that there is an exploit without giving instructions. Cryptic reps have been fairly active on the forums, so I assume one of them will PM someone to get the information if they don't already have it.

    I get your point, but I don't see how any good at all can come from posting how to do it, or even making it more known in any way.

    It's true that people will be doing it anyway, but why allow it to become worse than it already is?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JoelKatz wrote: »
    This sounds like common sense, but experience doesn't bear this out. People will do it en masse whether you post it or not. It takes public attention to get something fixed.

    Now that doesn't mean this is the right place to bring that public attention. It's clearly not, as Cryptic gets to set the rules in their forum.

    But if you think someone not posting it is going to reduce the people doing it and that a mere email or ticket is the best way to get it fixed, that's all not true and every bit of evidence suggests the reverse. If you found it, so have other people, and they will exploit it silently. It often will not get fixed until there's a public cry for a fix, and it takes public knowledge of the problem for there to be such a cry.

    These are lessons learned painfully. If you're interested in the evidence, see these links:
    http://www.wildernesscoast.org/bib/disclosure-by-date.html

    The Dev's have a ton on their plate, and someone publicly posting about an exploit (instead of just sending a ticket) artificially inflates the priority of the exploit. Something that could have sat on the back burner for a week or two while stability (for example) was being working on, is now taking up time and resources because a magnitude more people (who never would have known about it) just started using the exploit. Mind you, I'm not talking about the OP exploit specificity, just the reason why I think exploits shouldn't be reported publicly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Op. You need to actually think before you post. Cryptic are not blizzard. They only ban persistant trolls who do not post constructively. there are tons of constructive posts on these boards cokmpletely berating this game in every way possible. Devs have even posted in those threads to say its staying open as long as players post constructively.

    Posts liek yours arent. they are purely troll posts made to stir up anger in the playerbase. As such your has been reported.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ChampOne wrote: »
    To the OP, how would you like it if you made a game, put so much work into it and some customers didn't like it and said that you don't care about your customers, and only about money--hrmmmm?

    If I had made said game for the public, depended on them to be satisfied with the product to continue those sales to....hmm, lets see, make money! No, I wouldn't get my feelings hurt. I would however have a hell of a lot better customer service in place then seen here.

    Knowledge is considered power, unfortunately not in sto it seems.

    and wait, did I get called a troll? woot! first time ever in 3 years of forum posting. Do i get a cookie or something?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Speaking as someone who has had dealings with Cryptic since 2004 in the City of Heroes days, I can assure you that Cryptic does not ban people for being loudmouths, successful rabble rousers, or for laying out exceptionally harsh or biting criticism. I've done all of those on the CIty of Heroes boards over the years while they controlled the game and got into on-board scraps with Positron, Jack, Castle, and others. There were several times where I was sure something I was posting was going to warrant a warning if not a ban--and nothing.

    I even chatted at length with one of their community managers at Penny Arcade Expo about just this very thing, and I was assured that the things I did--which even led to Matt Miller having to apologize once to the community for mistaken or "incomplete" information on a bug, I forget which (I still think he didn't like me after that, given our one IRL meeting)--weren't even then anywhere near enough to warrant a warning let alone a ban. Or I certainly would have been after that.

    Part of the reason is my commentary wasn't just relentless flaming of Cryptic and the game--which is a lot of what we're seeing here. And it wasn't just shameless trolling--a lot of what we're seeing here.

    If you're a complete douchenozzle endlessly however, or post exploits, you should be banned, and any complaints about it are stupid. Access to resources like message boards are not an entitlement to be an anonymous internet jerkwad.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I am an outspoken critic of Cryptic and Atari and i can assure you they are not banning people for that. If anything i think they are being very leniant.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Also, I encourage any Cryptic staff or Mods to NOT close this thread. If this is the level of ultra FUD and disinformation the pointlessly extreme minority are already resorting to, it's better to squash it head on.

    Seriously--if I didn't get banned for some of the **** I pulled on the COH boards to rouse community pressure on improving the game, when it was under Cryptic's control, your theory is simply TRIBBLE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Slackjaw wrote:
    I am an outspoken critic of Cryptic and Atari and i can assure you they are not banning people for that. If anything i think they are being very leniant.

    Too lenient, IMHO, and I'm pretty extreme on the Internet libertarian scale.

    Why would they even ban critics though for being critics? As stuff irons itself out their complaints will look more and more like that they are; the usual "OMG HEAR ME" nonsense that is prevalent on all game boards. Some of it today has legitimate weight and value in complaint content but Lord are these boards exceptionally far down on the "Worst possible way to present your complaints for real attention" scale.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zilag wrote:
    Speaking as someone who has had dealings with Cryptic since 2004 in the City of Heroes days, I can assure you that Cryptic does not ban people for being loudmouths, successful rabble rousers, or for laying out exceptionally harsh or biting criticism. I've done all of those on the CIty of Heroes boards over the years while they controlled the game and got into on-board scraps with Positron, Jack, Castle, and others. There were several times where I was sure something I was posting was going to warrant a warning if not a ban--and nothing.

    I used to think the same, but recent events have convinced me that the current moderators have significant sphincter contraction issues.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I get your point, but I don't see how any good at all can come from posting how to do it, or even making it more known in any way.

    It's true that people will be doing it anyway, but why allow it to become worse than it already is?
    See my links. Painful experience has shown that full disclosure gets the problem fixed quickly. Partial or no disclosure ensures that the people who are happy to silently abuse a defect get to continue to do so for much, much longer. This has been researched to death and it's another area where it just happens to turn out that common sense is wrong.

    Again, though, this is not the forum for full disclosure. And there is tons of research on disclosure methods that work. An immediate full public disclosure the instant you discover a problem is not the best solution either.

    Firing off an email or ticket and assuming or hoping the problem will get fixed, however, *definitely* doesn't work, and it allows the people silently abusing the defect to continue to do so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ZenBrillig wrote:
    I used to think the same, but recent events have convinced me that the current moderators have significant sphincter contraction issues.

    Links?

    Closing threads (that one PR guy does that a lot) isn't a big deal, and that's the only thing I've seen. He's only done it also with extremely flamey threads and not that often.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zilag wrote:
    Links?

    Closing threads (that one PR guy does that a lot) isn't a big deal, and that's the only thing I've seen. He's only done it also with extremely flamey threads and not that often.

    Giving details would violate board rules.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    um...
    Posting Cheats, Hacks, Trojan Horses, or Malicious Programs
    Posts and/or private messages that allude to, contain language, comments, references, links, symbols, terms and/or imagery about and/or promote and/or otherwise support, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, cheats, hacks, cracks and/or malicious viruses/programs (e.g., keyloggers, Trojan horses, websites or files that take control of another person’s computer, etc.) may be subject to an infraction.

    Note the "allude to" part
    also, this is bar none THE most lenient web forum Ive EVER been on. Blatant trolls, guys that are actively trying to get people to quit or get prospective members not to buy ther game are unpunished here
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ZenBrillig wrote:
    I used to think the same, but recent events have convinced me that the current moderators have significant sphincter contraction issues.

    I got perma-banned in SWG forums for using that word. Well, I also commented on the loot tables, and made the issue that the devs might be keeping those for themselves. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One problem with your theory, that post was made in 2008.

    No concept of non linear time, me thinks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ZenBrillig wrote:
    Giving details would violate board rules.

    You've not fallen for my clever ruse! Which I didn't realize I was making...

    But I do read Dev Tracker almost daily. I haven't seen a single thing since I joined up that made me say, "Really, guys?" in regards to Dev actions on the boards yet. Just sayin.
This discussion has been closed.