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More IQ less pew pew

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I know there are many many threads about this concept. If we get enough thread, maybe we can weave an outfit for Cryptic?

The heart of this issue is that a large number of players want the hope from TNG in this game. What made TNG such a success and what hindered DS9 and Voyager (not trying to bash, just showing ratings, profit and longevity) is that TNG seemed upbeat. While they did have heavy issues, 9 times out of 10 the episode ended with no net loss to the Federation or the ship or even the characters.

I know that we play during a "time of war" but that does not mean that Starfleet must sink to the level of it's enemies. As countless other threads have detailed, the Federation seems a bit evil when you're constantly pew pewing every mission. As the game plays out, it seems more like a cold war, instigated by the Undine and a few crazies. Even in TNG there was an element of distrust between the various groups, and Starfleet was never one to back down from a fight, but never instigated it either.

So I'd like to see some more showings of IQ in game. Make some missions where killing is expressly forbidden. Saturday's Child is a great example. Love the idea of a space contest. It could have easily been an IQ moment that went pew pew.

Right, let's keep these threads up. Maybe by sheer force of size will we get Cryptic's attention and show that we're sincere in our desire to make this game great.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    i agree... again...
    ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    stop living in the past TNG was 40 years ago
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    While I would like to see classic moments such as a Romulan Warbird decloaking and staring at me menacingly, that doesn't make the most compelling gameplay. Missions where I don't have to kill anyone are a nice break from the combat, but having a ton of those like you seem to be suggesting is a idea I'm not overly thrilled about. I'm all for a little break here and there, but I don't want it to be the norm by any stretch of the imagination. If you have a idea to make them fun, go for it, but as things stand now this doesn't sound enjoyable to me and would generally be a waste of those perfectly good cannons on my ship not to mention the skill points I've allocated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    No, games succeed based on the pew pew value, most MMO players started with WoW, and want to play WoW like games, where you kill things every 2 seconds, myself included, diplomacy is boring. Exploring is boring, I play a game not to discuss political non sense with the Romulans or Klingons or spend 28 hours roaming through space talking to random people. I play to go pew pew pew pew I win. Some people will agree with you, some will agree with me, it's a matter of perspective, but the people who want the no combat, all talk aspect are sorely out numbered by the action oriented folks, because if we wanted to do all the talking and what not, we'd watch Star Trek on TV. We play the game to be the Captain and blow **** up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    /concur

    Conflict should exist to build upon a story...
    ...story should not exist simply as a means to provide combat.

    Combat for it's own sake is meaningless.
    For the love of all that is Trek, we can get generic pew pew anywhere. What the Star Trek IP has in abundance that no other IP can provide... is utterly absent. Why bother with the Trek IP if all you were going to do with it is to plunge the Federation in total war with every other faction out there? You're not even bothering to use the combat to build upon any narrative. It's all just shooting phasers for the sake of shooting phasers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I definitly wouldn't mind some more of this. In fact, I'd love it. The only problem is different levels of intelligence all over the place with STO players. It would suck to have a mission where you couldn't progress without having to do what, for you anyway, is an incredibly difficult puzzle. All they need to add is some simple things to make the game a lot better, like needing to find a code in another room before you can progress, that kind of thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Nadoka wrote:
    stop living in the past TNG was 40 years ago


    NO Kirk was 40 years ago.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Tng 2370
    Sto 2409
    :d
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    No, games succeed based on the pew pew value, most MMO players started with WoW, and want to play WoW like games, where you kill things every 2 seconds, myself included, diplomacy is boring. Exploring is boring, I play a game not to discuss political non sense with the Romulans or Klingons or spend 28 hours roaming through space talking to random people. I play to go pew pew pew pew I win. Some people will agree with you, some will agree with me, it's a matter of perspective, but the people who want the no combat, all talk aspect are sorely out numbered by the action oriented folks, because if we wanted to do all the talking and what not, we'd watch Star Trek on TV. We play the game to be the Captain and blow **** up.

    Boring diplomacy is boring.
    Boring exploration is boring.
    Boring pew pew is boring.

    Exciting diplomacy is exciting.
    Exciting exploration is exciting.
    Exciting pew pew is exciting.

    You want to go kill things every few seconds? You can do that anywhere. No where but in the Trek IP can we follow the noblest paths in us and succeed as a collective. STO needs that, or else it's no better than mindless wow... do you want your precious Star Trek to become that? Do you cherish your Star Trek enough to wish a better fate for it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    It's pretty much unanimous that players want more diplomacy, exploration, etc. Cryptic knows this. We can only wait to see if they'll do anything about it beyond adding in more scan 5 anamolies, talk to X number of people, and other mindless substitutes for the endless killing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    What's the MMO game design on this? Something like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, with a lot of text and choose your own adventure style game play? I enjoy those games, but how do you put that into an MMO? 5 players voting on responses? Debating which to choose, some sort of brain bowl where you have 30 seconds to discuss the answer and lock in your votes?

    I'd love to see more variety in missions, more Star Trek story telling, diplomacy and exploration. But personally, I don't see how you design that gameplay into an entertaining MMO. Instead of just complaints about there being too much combat in the game, how about giving really good, workable, interesting ideas on how they might incorporate those other Star Trek elements into entertaining MMO gameplay?

    I would love to see that type of variety in the game. I'm not being negative, I just don't have the creative mind to see how they would incorporate what is being asked and I'd hazard a guess that the Cryptic devs are also lacking creative ideas for incorporating the more high-minded elements of ST into the game, in a manner that would be playable and enhance the MMO experience...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Neog wrote:
    What's the MMO game design on this? Something like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, with a lot of text and choose your own adventure style game play? I enjoy those games, but how do you put that into an MMO? 5 players voting on responses? Debating which to choose, some sort of brain bowl where you have 30 seconds to discuss the answer and lock in your votes?

    I'd love to see more variety in missions, more Star Trek story telling, diplomacy and exploration. But personally, I don't see how you design that gameplay into an entertaining MMO. Instead of just complaints about there being too much combat in the game, how about giving really good, workable, interesting ideas on how they might incorporate those other Star Trek elements into entertaining MMO gameplay?

    I would love to see that type of variety in the game. I'm not being negative, I just don't have the creative mind to see how they would incorporate what is being asked and I'd hazard a guess that the Cryptic devs are also lacking creative ideas for incorporating the more high-minded elements of ST into the game, in a manner that would be playable and enhance the MMO experience...

    We've done that many times, giving valuable suggestions for diplomatic missions, archaeological puzzles, exploration etc. Problem is, there are hundreds of these types of threads.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Totally agree with you 100% and I'm going to use an in game example of where this is missing. If you haven't done the Ghost Ship mission at Commander level yet don't read on as I'm going to spoil it.

    Here we are investigating this ship that's been sucked into a wormhole, along with several Klingon ships only to find that both Klingon and Federation people are being used as hunting prey so to speak. You end up beaming to the ship to investigate and liberate the captured federation members. Now here's where things went horribly wrong for me.

    While doing the mission you notice that the Klingons are engaged in combat for their lives just like the Federation people are against a common enemy. What's the solution this mission offers to you us, the Federation? Don't help the Klingons survive this brutal encounter since they themselves are also fighting against a common enemy for something the federation is supposed to stand for, the right to live....No, the solution here is to engage the Klingons and kill them while their back is turned and they are fighting for their lives.

    Umm, you may disagree but it doesn't seem very "star trekky" to me to mindlessly kill them while their back is turned. I don't personally feel that's the message the Roddenberry was trying to convey in the show. Why not add something cool like killing a group of the same enemy and then opening up a dialogue with the Klingons we just helped save. Then give 2 choices to the player to work out a diplomatic solution or get in an argument with the Klingons and then start fighting. At least then I get diplomacy and a choice as to how the mission plays out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, lets see Cryptic cater to the niche crowd that wants a game consisting 90% of this 'exploration' and 'diplomacy' business, rather than providing a fast-paced, action-orientated experience for the mass market.

    Sacrifices have to be made to 'realism' (in a fictional universe context) to provide for gameplay, and this is more apparent in an MMO than anywhere else. How many single-player Star Trek games focus almost exclusively on comabt? Star Trek Armada, Starfleet Command 1, 2 and 3, Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars, Away Team - to name but a few. Nobody complains about that. Additionally, Star Trek is more than just TNG or TOS. It includes Voyager, Enterprise and DS9, too. The latter, especially, showed a darker side to the Federation as well as scenes of heavy action. You can't simply say Star Trek has none of these only because TNG was the most popular series.

    That being said, I don't know why we have hordes of enemy ships to fight through. It'd maybe make a little more sense if there were fewer but individually stronger enemy ships, so you don't rack up a dozen kills per mission, but more like two or three.

    Maybe this would make for logner and duller battles, I dunno.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Neog wrote:
    What's the MMO game design on this? Something like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, with a lot of text and choose your own adventure style game play? I enjoy those games, but how do you put that into an MMO? 5 players voting on responses? Debating which to choose, some sort of brain bowl where you have 30 seconds to discuss the answer and lock in your votes?

    I'd love to see more variety in missions, more Star Trek story telling, diplomacy and exploration. But personally, I don't see how you design that gameplay into an entertaining MMO. Instead of just complaints about there being too much combat in the game, how about giving really good, workable, interesting ideas on how they might incorporate those other Star Trek elements into entertaining MMO gameplay?

    I would love to see that type of variety in the game. I'm not being negative, I just don't have the creative mind to see how they would incorporate what is being asked and I'd hazard a guess that the Cryptic devs are also lacking creative ideas for incorporating the more high-minded elements of ST into the game, in a manner that would be playable and enhance the MMO experience...

    An episode of Trek was not, "captain, romulans off the port bow" followed by 45 minutes of a phaser light show
    ... not that we don't like firing our phasers.

    At the very least, it would be nice if our missions on rails involved setup and resolution aside from the destruction of a dozen enemy ships. I'm not a professional writer, neither are you. Hopefully cryptic has or is acquiring professional writers and as a result, we;ll get missions more in line with an episode of Trek.

    Story, conflict, talking, science, mystery, diplomacy and resolution...
    ...maybe even a lesson on the human condition to go with our light show.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, lets see Cryptic cater to the niche crowd that wants a game consisting 90% of this 'exploration' and 'diplomacy' business, rather than providing a fast-paced, action-orientated experience for the mass market.

    Sacrifices have to be made to 'realism' (in a fictional universe context) to provide for gameplay, and this is more apparent in an MMO than anywhere else. Additionally, Star Trek is more than just TNG or TOS. It includes Voyager, Enterprise and DS9, too. The latter, especially, showed a darker side to the Federation as well as scenes of heavy action. You can't simply say Star Trek has none of these only because TNG was the most popular series.

    You're making the assumption that folks that are asking for some more diplomatic options want the game to be 90% diplomacy. Maybe some do but I definitely don't. I also don't enjoy the game as it is currently is which is 90% slaughtering enemies mindlessly and 10% everything else. Hell I'd be happy if the game was 70% combat 30% diplomacy/other stuff. Right now the game is out of balance so to speak with the flow and tone of ALL of the Star Trek canon in its entirety. I just would like more gameplay options with the missions but don't want the game to become a total mindless borefest. /shrug
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    And more Orion slave girls.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Airwren wrote:
    You're making the assumption that folks that are asking for some more diplomatic options want the game to be 90% diplomacy. Maybe some do but I definitely don't. I also don't enjoy the game as it is currently is which is 90% slaughtering enemies mindlessly and 10% everything else. Hell I'd be happy if the game was 70% combat 30% diplomacy/other stuff. Right now the game is out of balance so to speak with the flow and tone of ALL of the Star Trek canon in its entirety. I just would like more gameplay options with the missions but don't want the game to become a total mindless borefest. /shrug

    You have a good point.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    how many times do the devs have to say

    "we've heard you want less combat, more diplomacy, we're working on it now"

    for people to stop demanding it?

    its not like they can just open up the code and type in at the bottom "diplomacy = yes" and it suddenly appears in the game now is it?

    you want inovative, engaging missions, you want choices that affect how things turn out, it takes time to code, check, recode, check, QA, recode, check, QA and push to test servers to make these things happen.

    i mean its not like there's already 3 dozen threads like this all over the board for people to post ideas in
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    darmak wrote:

    An episode of Trek was not, "captain, romulans off the port bow" followed by 45 minutes of a phaser light show
    ... not that we don't like firing our phasers.

    At the very least, it would be nice if our missions on rails involved setup and resolution aside from the destruction of a dozen enemy ships. I'm not a professional writer, neither are you. Hopefully cryptic has or is acquiring professional writers and as a result, we;ll get missions more in line with an episode of Trek.

    Story, conflict, talking, science, mystery, diplomacy and resolution...
    ...maybe even a lesson on the human condition to go with our light show.

    We may not be professional writers, but it's still easy to come up with decent ideas.

    A very simple one that I would find fun: hunting for a Bajran orb on a planet, talking to people for clues, and exploring every nook and cranny of the map. Then, I'd have to make a choice of which Vedic to give it to, a reformer who acts like a politician or an orthodox religious zealout.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    man does not live by bread (or phaser fire) alone
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sacrifices have to be made to 'realism' (in a fictional universe context) to provide for gameplay, and this is more apparent in an MMO than anywhere else. Additionally, Star Trek is more than just TNG or TOS. It includes Voyager, Enterprise and DS9, too. The latter, especially, showed a darker side to the Federation as well as scenes of heavy action. You can't simply say Star Trek has none of these only because TNG was the most popular series.

    I can however note that TNG got far better rating despite being devoid of the 'reality' of pew pew that the mass market craves so insatiably. hmm, curious no? Maybe they were on to something?

    Look, when you want your pew pew fix, you don't throw Star Trek into your DVD player...
    ...and when you want pew pew on your computer, you shouldn't be looking to a Trek mmo.

    But the desire for what Trek did really well, in diplomacy, exploration and examining ourselves through the similarities in differences of new life and new civilizations is something people do want. Maybe they don't want it to the exclusion of all else, but when you did want it, TNG delivered did it not?

    Much the same way, STO should not be trying to be the pew pew fix for the gaming community, they'll get that from better sources elsewhere... with zombie TRIBBLE and the like.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    darmak wrote:
    But the desire for what Trek did really well, in diplomacy, exploration and examining ourselves through the similarities in differences of new life and new civilizations is something people do want. Maybe they don't want it to the exclusion of all else, but when you did want it, TNG delivered did it not?
    .

    Fine, great. But how would you develop a successful and widely popular MMO out of that? The key words in your first sentance were 'mass market.'
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    darmak wrote:

    An episode of Trek was not, "captain, romulans off the port bow" followed by 45 minutes of a phaser light show
    ... not that we don't like firing our phasers.

    At the very least, it would be nice if our missions on rails involved setup and resolution aside from the destruction of a dozen enemy ships. I'm not a professional writer, neither are you. Hopefully cryptic has or is acquiring professional writers and as a result, we;ll get missions more in line with an episode of Trek.

    Story, conflict, talking, science, mystery, diplomacy and resolution...
    ...maybe even a lesson on the human condition to go with our light show.

    Have you missed the parts of the writing that clearly indicate that the Undine are influencing everyone and everything and that maybe there's a reason why things are so unlike the Star Fleet you knew in the past?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Nadoka wrote:
    stop living in the past TNG was 40 years ago

    TNG is 350 years from now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Whenever I'd play KOTOR, I always dreaded that boring 'quest' on Dantooine where you spent 20 minutes reading dialogue of suspects talk talk talk, just to try and "figure out" who committed the crime. Boring as hell.

    I loved Dragon Age. Absolutely loved it. But there were times where I got sick and tired of sitting and watching NPCs talk for 10 minute stretches. And that was voiced!



    I know some of the missions in STO might feel a little shallow and redundant, some of our actions a little non-Treky. (or at least, non-Federation). And I'm absolutely in favor of addressing, fixing, and/or enhancing such things.


    But no way in hell do I want to spend a half hour in STO just reading NPC dialogue boxes.

    I realize this isn't necessarily what many want or hope to get. But if you think Cryptic made the combat missions tedious and shallow... what's to stop the same level of depth and immersion to occur with diplomacy, aid, and investigative missions? Except if that happens, instead of at least getting to fight along the way, we'll be sitting around reading NPC dialogue text boxes to "solve" the quest.



    Personally, I think voiced dialogue and small (but frequent) cut scenes would increase the atmosphere and immersion of STO at least 5X. That alone would probably make many of the missions more enjoyable.


    W/O SPOILERS, think of all the huge, legendary locales, bosses, and/or plot-lines some of the missions in STO have. Think if every location, every reveal of a boss or character from the Trek mythos, had even just a 5 second dramatic intro cut-scene. (no loading-screen of course!) :D

    I think that would be cool as hell, add drama and atmosphere and gravity to the missions.

    As it is now, they're "just there" in front of you, no setup, no intro, no drama. They're just another target with a name we know from the shows.

    :(


    EDIT: BTW folks, when Kirk was facing Klingons, or Sisko the Dominion, they usually didn't so much as send a hail before opening fire. Even Picard, in the altered timeline (Yesterday's Enterprise) didn't waste time trying to "negotiate."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I know there are many many threads about this concept. If we get enough thread, maybe we can weave an outfit for Cryptic?

    The heart of this issue is that a large number of players want the hope from TNG in this game. What made TNG such a success and what hindered DS9 and Voyager (not trying to bash, just showing ratings, profit and longevity) is that TNG seemed upbeat. While they did have heavy issues, 9 times out of 10 the episode ended with no net loss to the Federation or the ship or even the characters.

    I know that we play during a "time of war" but that does not mean that Starfleet must sink to the level of it's enemies. As countless other threads have detailed, the Federation seems a bit evil when you're constantly pew pewing every mission. As the game plays out, it seems more like a cold war, instigated by the Undine and a few crazies. Even in TNG there was an element of distrust between the various groups, and Starfleet was never one to back down from a fight, but never instigated it either.

    So I'd like to see some more showings of IQ in game. Make some missions where killing is expressly forbidden. Saturday's Child is a great example. Love the idea of a space contest. It could have easily been an IQ moment that went pew pew.

    Right, let's keep these threads up. Maybe by sheer force of size will we get Cryptic's attention and show that we're sincere in our desire to make this game great.


    very well put. as for "living in the past", as someone put it, Starfleet was always an instrument of exploration and there should be some storylines reflecting that, and i don't mean what Grall gives us. even Fallout3 wasn't all about killing this or that. even Klingons explored, or they wouldn't have the Empire they have now .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Krenn wrote: »
    very well put. as for "living in the past", as someone put it, Starfleet was always an instrument of exploration and there should be some storylines reflecting that, and i don't mean what Grall gives us. even Fallout3 wasn't all about killing this or that. even Klingons explored, or they wouldn't have the Empire they have now .

    Add some more Exploration, Diplomacy, etc. type recurring missions to this discussion -> http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=114813
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Nadoka wrote:
    Tng 2370
    Sto 2409
    :d


    This made me LOL
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Fine, great. But how would you develop a successful and widely popular MMO out of that? The key words in your first sentance were 'mass market.'

    In a similar fashion to how you develop a successful and widely popular TV series out of it?
    Neog wrote:
    Have you missed the parts of the writing that clearly indicate that the Undine are influencing everyone and everything and that maybe there's a reason why things are so unlike the Star Fleet you knew in the past?

    Nope, I got it. My current thinking is that all of starfleet, including my bridge officers, is a undine in disguise.
    But my interest in Trek is not so I can get 'duped' into being a bad starfleet officer...
    ...I want to play as, you know, a regular upstanding starfleet officer that gets to make the tough calls, put principle first and blow away the opposition WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, not as my first resort.
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