Email to Cryptic explaining why I cancelled my account:
Viral Matrix and Sub Neucleonic Beam are grossly overpowered and must be taken out of the PvP game. In T1-T3 play I won and lost about half of the time each and it seemed balanced enough and FUN (as a Klingon player).
Viral Matrix having no self counter is awfully overpowered and Sub Neucleonic Beam is even worse and has no counter. Premade Team play makes no difference. Klingons will just roll Science Captains and have a boring MezFest to counter Federation play.
These are not Science abilities/skills, they are Magic Spells right out of WoW and DAoC. Get rid of these Mezmerize spells. They don't belong in STO.
Since starting T4 I haven't won a single match and it's not because I don't know how to play; I'm not a Science Captain in a Science Vessel is the reason, and I choose not to be one. The PvP game is no longer fun to play with these overpowered and FUN BREAKING abilities/skills.
Again, whereas the game was fun before, even when I lost, the game is NOT FUN now. Now I just sit back as my console grays out and watch my ship get blown up. Your fan base, if it's going to die in PvP space combat, wants to die fighting, not watching the screen passively.
When you remove these Fun Breaking "Spells" from the PvP game send me an email and I'll resubscribe.
****EDIT 1 Kindly note that this was a response to Cryptic's "Why are you leaving the game" question. I felt I had to "get it all out" and not be very concerned about how I "let loose." I don't know if I adequately expressed my feeling of frustration regarding the 22-25 second "Can't Do Anything" skill, if you wish to call it a skill. I realize I could have worded it better and given more concrete examples but I was out of cement (unglued) and decided to give them the bricks and have them sort it out.
**** EDIT 2 Since Jackalope from Cryptic Studios Team has paid this thread a visit, I thought it would be good form to resubscribe to STO. I do so out of courtesy, and for no ulterior reason. I was also advised by a fleet mate that it is better to post about correcting a perceived problem without any remarks about quitting the game. I apologize for breaking the forum etiquette regarding that.
****EDIT 3
After reading the replies to my OP (and cooling down as well) I regret posting such a severe and absolute sounding diatribe. I would change it into something that sounds less like something a child who has had his candly taken away would say, but several people have copied parts or all of it in their responses.
Hopefully this third edit (or addition) will suffice. The above mentioned skills certainly need adjustments, however, removing them from the game may not be the best solution. I'm still concerned about the fun factor and PUGs. Implementing a Voice Chat system in the game would go a long way to make PUGs more competitive and fun to play.
I also apologize for posts I made inside the thread while I was hot headed.
You would think with all the pvp games that have ever come out, that any new developer would realize that "losing control of the character is bad". but they make that mistake over and over.
There's no game-killing mistake in pvp worse than CC, seriously. One shot kills too.
You would think with all the pvp games that have ever come out, that any new developer would realize that "losing control of the character is bad". but they make that mistake over and over.
There's no game-killing mistake in pvp worse than CC, seriously. One shot kills too.
Indeed, it's baffling that these mechanics make it in, it's like the developers (of all recent mmo's not just STO) don't even play games.
Attack Pattern Omega prevents it from effecting you. Also, I think it's fine at it is, since the lowly fast recharging science team I counters both and any ship can have science team 1. They just need to make the visual SFX for effected ships more noticeable so that the support ships actually remove the buffs.
You would think with all the pvp games that have ever come out, that any new developer would realize that "losing control of the character is bad". but they make that mistake over and over.
There's no game-killing mistake in pvp worse than CC, seriously. One shot kills too.
I think the reason for them was to act as hold in space. This is a very typical mechanic in most mmos. However, I feel it's still overpowered. It wouldn't be so bad if you could at least heal yourself through the process. If they allwed that, then I think the skill would be ok.
I think the reason for them was to act as hold in space. This is a very typical mechanic in most mmos. However, I feel it's still overpowered. It wouldn't be so bad if you could at least heal yourself through the process. If they allwed that, then I think the skill would be ok.
I think the reason for them was to act as hold in space. This is a very typical mechanic in most mmos. However, I feel it's still overpowered. It wouldn't be so bad if you could at least heal yourself through the process. If they allwed that, then I think the skill would be ok.
Attack Pattern Omega prevents it from effecting you. Also, I think it's fine at it is, since the lowly fast recharging science team I counters both and any ship can have science team 1. They just need to make the visual SFX for effected ships more noticeable so that the support ships actually remove the buffs.
I sympathize with your post, but these two spells are simply FUN BREAKING for me and I'd bet 95% of average PvPers.
I'm not going to hope that in a hectic PUG fight someone decides to throw Science Team 1 on me or APO.
And I can't have APO since no Klingon Cruiser has a Lt. Commander level Tactical BOF slot at any tier.
T4 play is just NOT FUN.
In T5 I would prefer the Klingon Cruiser, but now AM FORCED to take Carrier for APO.
So they throw VM on me and I counter with Science Team 1--when they fix it so I can do so (using it when my opponent wants me to use it).
They throw SubNuc Beam on me and I have no counter. And I can't do the same to them unless I'm a Science Captain.
What a waste of time.
No thanks. These are FUN BREAKING spells.
Give us something to help resistance or whatever. These two "spells" are not fun for most PvPers. Being taken out of the fight and passively watching as I get blown up is not fun.
Blow me up all the time, I don't care, but it's just not fun when my console goes blank. That I will not tolerate. I voted with my money.
I have not experianced subneuclionic beam yet but i know that Attack Pattern Omega defeats viral matrix totally effectivly.
Also these jamming abilities force teamwork and communication and while some ppl are either unable or unwilling to work in units and communicate i do not think that removing these mechanics to cater to them is a good idea as it drastically lowers the teamwork and skill required to be successful in pvp.
Unfortunatly as with most games the poorly skilled and lazy players who require something to point at and say "thats why i lose" tend to outnumber those who are willing to learn, communicate and work in units.
Both skills are great little skills and should remain in the game, they just need to be tweaked realistically to make them useful without being devestating to the point people roll chars just to use these OP skills.
Virals active time needs to be lowered and cool down raised. Also it needs to be made clear weather higher versions of sci team prevent different versions of viral. The new implementation that is supposed to be coming of having sci team remove it during effect should only work if the sci team is higher than the viral. ST1 should not remove VM III for example. This should be similar for most skills. If you have used your commander slot on a BOF for a certain skill it should be worth it.
Subnucs acive time needs to be limited or have some counter to remove it. Being able to use no skills for 25+ seconds is a death sentance. Not to mention the lol combo with a skilled up sensor scan III.
Finally both of thse skills should not be stackable. By this I mean you cant just keep spamming viral / sub nuc onto the same person over to increase the active time. The first time one of them hits it should instantly create some immunity for the next 30 seconds or whatever.
I have not experianced subneuclionic beam yet but i know that Attack Pattern Omega defeats viral matrix totally effectivly.
Also these jamming abilities force teamwork and communication and while some ppl are either unable or unwilling to work in units and communicate i do not think that removing these mechanics to cater to them is a good idea as it drastically lowers the teamwork and skill required to be successful in pvp.
Unfortunatly as with most games the poorly skilled and lazy players who require something to point at and say "thats why i lose" tend to outnumber those who are willing to learn, communicate and work in units.
I then hope that you experience SubNuc Beam soon.
There was some pretty skillful play in T2 and T3. I was on the giving end and the receiving end equally. THAT WAS FUN.
T4 is a joke. Getting Mezzed over and over and over and being blown up as I passively watch is not skillful play on my opponent's part. With VM it's him pressing a button faster (and in the case of VM, it's the Dooms Day button), OR having an extra ship in the team that can cast it again when I counter the first Mez he throws at me.
But there is no counter to the 22 second SubNuc Beam Mez so it's my opponent having an ability inherent to the Science Captain that completely takes me out of the game for 22 seconds. 22 seconds I have to watch as my ship gets blown up while I am able to do absolutely nothing about it (except cancelling my account). NOT FUN.
What is the skill in having an "I win" button?, for surely, the Science Captain only Skill Subneucleonic Beam is an "I win" button.
There is no skill involved. Press the button and your opponent is helpless for 22 seconds even as you pound her/him. There is no skill there. Explain where you see skill.
The JOY of Playing is gone.
Overall, for most PvPers, this will be the reason they quit. NOT FUN.
And kindly do not impute that I am "poorly skilled and lazy."
I played and had fun, but I choose not to play now when, frankly, due to these bizzare spells, I actually can't do anything in the game except watch myself die.
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.
The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.
Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got TRIBBLE multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got TRIBBLE on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
I look at games like call of duty/modern warfare as being the leaders of pvp... One shot kills happen, both in games, tv, and real life. Now I am all for changing some skills, but I am not for pointing fingers at one or two skills saying they are OP and that those two abilities must be nerfed. The reason being that the overall picture needs to be changed. Right now quick deaths can happen, abilities like VM and RSP and Subnucleonic beam help to offset this. I use them and my dps suffers greatly, however my survivability goes up a bit. I'm not saying leave them in or I quit. I'm just saying that targetting a few skills in a pile of crappy skills is a bad idea.
I personally think they should have a test server up with dedicated dev support to figure out the best ways to approach the skill changes accross the board.
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.
The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.
Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got TRIBBLE multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got TRIBBLE on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
Does SubNuc Beam get removed with a Science Team like VM?
If so, then there is no problem. VM has a counter and, annoying as VM may be, the counter is readily available if you play socially.
I think his problem is with SubNuc beam, which is, supposedly undefendable (I don't have it yet, so I cant tell for sure)....Undefendable anything is a bad thing. If it is a long-duration unbrekable form of CC, specifically so.
T4 is a joke. Getting Mezzed over and over and over and being blown up as I passively watch is not skillful play on my opponent's part. With VM it's him pressing a button faster, OR having an extra ship in the team that can cast it again when I counter the first Mez he throws at me.
But there is no counter to the 22 second SubNuc Beam Mez so it's my opponent having an ability inherent to the Science Captain that completely takes me out of the game for 22 seconds. 22 seconds I have to watch as my ship gets blown up .
Its not the effect that is in question or that it needs countering, its the attitude of "im quitting call me when the thing i dont like is gone".
The game needs a rock paper scissors aspect of these highly delibatating effects or it becomes all about spamming the fire button.
Now buffing or adjusting science team, omega and other effects so they are better as well as perhaps adjusting coooldowns ect are positive ideas that myself and others will support but "games broke cos of X, im quitting" will gain you nothing but derision from serious gamers and pvpers.
What is the skill in having an "I win" button?, for surely, the Science Captain only Skill Subneucleonic Beam is an "I win" button.
There is no skill involved. Press the button and your opponent is helplkess for 22 seconds.
The JOY of Playing is gone.
The skill is in you communicating to your team the problem and them acting to either counter it (when the counter is implemented) and or buffing/RRing you so you survive, while your team also works offensivly.
I suggest you start thinking of pvp as a team effort or you are always going to find "broken mechanics/i-win buttons" when the truth is you are just trying to make pvp like solo mission running............its not and never will be no matter how many things you blame.
And kindly do not impute that I am "poorly skilled and lazy."
I played and had fun, but I choose not to play now when, frankly, due to these spells, I actually can't do anything in the game except watch myself die
.
Sorry dude but all that tells me is that you started off against players of the same skill level and while they have now adapted and become more proficient within the currant game mechanics you are either unwilling or unable to do so and instead have ran to the forum to get the game changed to suit your currant level of skill.
PVPers will always look for and find new ways of winning against other players, its what we do and after all the mechanics of the game are available to everybody.
Like wise there will always be those who as i say are either unwilling or unable to do so and run to the forums saying they will quit unless X is changed cos its making them lose.
Im sure the game will change many times over the months and years so if i were you i would either adapt to it and spend your time playing and enjoying the game or just quit for good cos blaming mechanics that are available to all is a never ending cycle.
Both skills are great little skills and should remain in the game, they just need to be tweaked realistically to make them useful without being devestating to the point people roll chars just to use these OP skills.
Virals active time needs to be lowered and cool down raised. Also it needs to be made clear weather higher versions of sci team prevent different versions of viral. The new implementation that is supposed to be coming of having sci team remove it during effect should only work if the sci team is higher than the viral. ST1 should not remove VM III for example. This should be similar for most skills. If you have used your commander slot on a BOF for a certain skill it should be worth it.
Subnucs acive time needs to be limited or have some counter to remove it. Being able to use no skills for 25+ seconds is a death sentance. Not to mention the lol combo with a skilled up sensor scan III.
Finally both of thse skills should not be stackable. By this I mean you cant just keep spamming viral / sub nuc onto the same person over to increase the active time. The first time one of them hits it should instantly create some immunity for the next 30 seconds or whatever.
You make good points, but most people are not here to play Grandmaster Chess PvP. I would just dump the skills. Make them something fun, not unfun.
Also, a Klingon Cruiser doesn't have a Lt. Commander Science BOF slot so I can't have Science Team III.
I appreciate all of your points and they are very good ones. I understand team play. The problem is that most people who PvP will soon be bored with the limited scope of PvP available in the arenas, and having a kick in the pants like SubNuc Beam will just have them cancelling sooner and uninstalling STO and loading up a game that's more fun.
Cryptic said they wanted a game that was fun and accessible to most players. They meant PvE mainly, but I'm quite sure they don't want PvP to be "unfun."
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
Actually kirk uses the Reliant's command override code to disable khan's shielding, a measure designed to stop someone hijacking a federation starship. Two things you might want to note there, firstly Khan countered it after the Enterprise's first attack, and secondly, he wasn't exactly hacking Khan's computer in the conventional sense, more taking control of a stolen computer.
The point of this pedantic little correction? The subneucleonic beam, VM combo isn't readily counterable. It's STO's lolcombo. I think the main problem is that it can be chained, so you can chainstun someone continually if they don't have APO. And before you come out with "LOLZ JUST CARRY APO AND YOU WIN NOOB", not all of us want to, or indeed can, carry a tactical officer with attack pattern omega. Why should I lose my commander bridge slot so I can counter the nastiest Iwin stun skill in the game. I think the way to fix this would be to have science team (maybe engineering team too) remove both subneuc and VM, and make you totally immune from both for the duration of the buff. That way you only TRIBBLE up someone who isn't prepared, and the mezstorm will be reduced. This will also do what I'm guessing VM and Subneuc is supposed to do in the first place, which is to stop healers from healing for a short time, since they have to fire their science team/eng team to remove the debuff, and hence they lose their strongest insta-heal for 45 seconds and any other "teams" for the group cooldown period.
In the Wrath of Khan, kirk didn't go "ROFL Viral Matrix" then fly rings around a completely disabled Reliant while Khan threw coffee at the viewscreen.
You DO realize that science team will soon be applicable when Viral Matrix'd right (i.e. the devs actually AGREE with you)? Which means your pretty much preaching to the choir. The devs agree with you, and your own statistics (generated on the spot, like 87.2% of all statistical citations) say that 95% of casual pvpers agree with you. We will be able to activate science team while matrix'd.
The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.
Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got TRIBBLE multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got TRIBBLE on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
Granted, granted. I'm smarter than I post. How else to make sure this gets done ASAP?
Also, you didn't address SubNucleonic Beam. That's a 22-25 second "I win" button.
Have you played in T4? Perhaps you have. I have seen slaughters, but no close matches. I'm sure a lot of players are really p'd off in T4. If I cancelled, which I did (I'll come back when/if they fix it), how many players will cancel and not give a darn about coming back, fix or no fix?
Btw, 92.4% of all statistical citations are generated on the spot.
Granted, granted. I'm smarter than I post. How else to make sure this gets done ASAP?
Also, you didn't address SubNucleonic Beam. That's a 22-25 second "I win" button.
Have you played in T4? Perhaps you have. I have seen slaughters, but no close matches. I'm sure a lot of players are really p'd off in T4. If I cancelled, which I did (I'll come back when/if they fix it), how many players will cancel and not give a darn about coming back, fix or no fix?
Btw, 92.4% of all statistical citations are generated on the spot.
if skills like subnucleonic beam and viral matrix lasted MAYBE 6 seconds tops I would be fine with it because it promoted skillful play. But it doesn't and it lasts 17 seconds if you don't buff it adaquitely, thats 1/3 of a minute, in competative pvp thats FOREVER.
sad to see you go, but I really hope to get you back (once they fix that TRIBBLE)
I'm a science officer, so I may be a bit biased for subnucleonic beam (I don't use viral matrix, I'm currently commander 10 flying a cruiser), but here's my take on it:
1) It only works wonders when you have 100-125 in aux with additional buffs from consoles,skills, deflectors and the sci ship bonus. At 25 aux (for example) it is nothing noteworthy (8 seconds I think).
2) It's a player ability, not a boff ability. Can you counter The engineer's rotate shield frequency, Nadion inverion, EPS power transfer or miracle worker,? What about attack pattern alpha/omega? Can we remove those buffs?
3) You can still move when beam'd unlike when you're VM'd. Hit full power to engines and run in a straight line. You'd be amazed how often this works wonders, because the enemy has to switch full power to engines (read: reduce power to weapons) just to keep up.
Now, I've never used VM, though I'll give it a try in t4 (played T2 science vessel in beta, T2 escort, T3 cruiser, going for T4 science to give me a nice perspective on how each class handles), but I do know that Subnucleonic shares a cool down with Tykens rift. Now, if Sub shares a cooldown with VM, I don't see a problem honestly. If it doesn't share a cooldown, it should.
If it does share a cool down, and you get VM'd, then beamed, then VM'd, ad infinum, then you are probably
being targetted by multiple enemies and you should either a) die if you are alone as anyone and everyone should loose in a 1 vs. group scenario or b) have your teammates save your TRIBBLE by killing the enemy targets or healing you.
Its not the effect that is in question or that it needs countering, its the attitude of "im quitting call me when the thing i dont like is gone".
The game needs a rock paper scissors aspect of these highly delibatating effects or it becomes all about spamming the fire button.
Surely you jest. SubNuc Beam is all about spamming the fire button.
5 Science ships with Science Captains target 5 enemy ships and throw a 22 second "you Can't Do Anthing" Mez on them and Tractor Beam. 5 enemy ships are now helpless. In 22 seconds the Science Ships spam the fire button and kill at least 2 enemy ships and the other 3 are now 5 vs 3. One more enemy ship goes boom.
The Science Ships heal one another till they get the mez back. Rinse and repeat.
Attack Pattern Omega prevents it from effecting you. Also, I think it's fine at it is, since the lowly fast recharging science team I counters both and any ship can have science team 1. They just need to make the visual SFX for effected ships more noticeable so that the support ships actually remove the buffs.
The problem with APO being the only counter that works on yourself AFTER you're hit with VM, is the first level of it is a LtCmdr BOff power, thus only escort captains and the Klingon Carrier Captains can use it. Science and Cruiser vessels only ever get up to Lt Tactical stations. Before anyone says, "but the BoP has universal slots", it is classified as a multi-role Escort, thus is included in the escort category.
Science teams on the other had start at the ensign level , so a Lt Science BOff can have ST1 and ST2, which with their 45 sec recharge and 20 sec shared cooldown, would leave a 5 sec window in which you can get hit with VM. Of course if you're hit with it during that time in any ship that can't have APO and noone on your team has ST available (dont' have or on cooldown) to help you , then you're screwed. At least until the patch that fixes ST to be usable after you're VM'd.
if skills like subnucleonic beam and viral matrix lasted MAYBE 6 seconds tops I would be fine with it because it promoted skillful play. But it doesn't and it lasts 17 seconds if you don't buff it adaquitely, thats 1/3 of a minute, in competative pvp thats FOREVER.
sad to see you go, but I really hope to get you back (once they fix that TRIBBLE)
1) It only works wonders when you have 100-125 in aux with additional buffs from consoles,skills, deflectors and the sci ship bonus. At 25 aux (for example) it is nothing noteworthy (8 seconds I think).
so its fair to knock someone out of the game for 22 seconds?
2) It's a player ability, not a boff ability. Can you counter The engineer's rotate shield frequency, Nadion inverion, EPS power transfer or miracle worker,? What about attack pattern alpha/omega? Can we remove those buffs?
do any of the skills you mentioned... COMPLETELY KNOCK YOU OUT OF THE GAME... no
3) You can still move when beam'd unlike when you're VM'd. Hit full power to engines and run in a straight line. You'd be amazed how often this works wonders, because the enemy has to switch full power to engines (read: reduce power to weapons) just to keep up.
your going to die before you can escape, any good player will make sure of that.
Now, I've never used VM, though I'll give it a try in t4 (played T2 science vessel in beta, T2 escort, T3 cruiser, going for T4 science to give me a nice perspective on how each class handles), but I do know that Subnucleonic shares a cool down with Tykens rift. Now, if Sub shares a cooldown with VM, I don't see a problem honestly. If it doesn't share a cooldown, it should.
at higher levels you can get the stun to last longer than the actual cooldown, and chain chain chain away.
If it does share a cool down, and you get VM'd, then beamed, then VM'd, ad infinum, then you are probably
being targetted by multiple enemies and you should either a) die if you are alone as anyone and everyone should loose in a 1 vs. group scenario or b) have your teammates save your TRIBBLE by killing the enemy targets or healing you.
just one if it lasts long enough is powerful enough to kill you, chaining it is gravy.
Not trying to defend overpowered sci abilties now. But seeing how they all scale with aux...maybe its time even for all cannon klingons to put one beam front, and use the "target subsystem aux II or III" to cripple the sci ships ? Im sorry to see so many people saddened and leaving. But there are options how to deal (to some degree) with everything in this game. I wonder, how many of klingons actualy have this skill to cripple sci ships. If im not mistaken the III version can drain up to -77 aux power for some time, at least if you spec for sensors, wich many jamming users do.
Surely you jest. SubNuc Beam is all about spamming the fire button.
5 Science ships with Science Captains target 5 enemy ships and throw a 22 second "you Can't Do Anthing" Mez on them. 5 enemy ships are now helpless. In 22 seconds the Science Ships spam the fire button and kill at least 2 enemy ships and the other 3 are now 5 vs 3. One more enemy ship goes boom.
The Science Ships heal one another till they get the mez back. Rinse and repeat.
You call this skill?
I play feds and I have never had 4 out of 5 ships be science ships (let alone 5 out of 5) on my team. I wish I was that lucky lol. Hell, I don't think I've had 5 science ships on my team in the big capture and hold maps. Maybe that will change when I hit T4 in 30 minutes or so.
And science ships actually healing one another does, unfortunately, give them more skill than the average feds I play with in pugs. If you are fighting 5 science ships, you might be having a bad run of luck against premades?
Also, don't klingons get some sort of ridiculous T5 science ship equivalent called a carrier?
Not trying to defend overpowered sci abilties now. But seeing how they all scale with aux...maybe its time even for all cannon klingons to put one beam front, and use the "target subsystem aux II or III" to cripple the sci ships ? Im sorry to see so many people saddened and leaving. But there are options how to deal (to some degree) with everything in this game. I wonder, how many of klingons actualy have this skill to cripple sci ships. If im not mistaken the III version can drain up to -77 aux power for some time, at least if you spec for sensors, wich many jamming users do.
its an issue on both sides, and target shields has a much greater tactical value if your not facing vm spammers (I have 2 identical officers except one has ttarget aux 3 and the other has target shields 3)
I play feds and I have never had 4 out of 5 ships be science ships (let alone 5 out of 5) on my team. I wish I was that lucky lol. Hell, I don't think I've had 5 science ships on my team in the big capture and hold maps. Maybe that will change when I hit T4 in 30 minutes or so.
And science ships actually healing one another does, unfortunately, give them more skill than the average feds I play with in pugs. If you are fighting 5 science ships, you might be having a bad run of luck against premades?
Also, don't klingons get some sort of ridiculous T5 science ship equivalent called a carrier?
first point and second points are premade issues
and carriers are balanced when piloted by a competant player, although a little on the weaker side. the only issue that could make them "OP" is the fact that you can exploit to get past the normal ship limit.
Hmm, didn't know Sub beam had such high returns from Aux.... Would hate to see a nerf to the Aux return as that seems to make aux actually useful. Maybe a longer shared cool down with VM would be an appropriate fix?
Also keep in mind that once the Sci team fix is implemented, you won't get hit hard by VM and sub has a 1 min 30 sec cooldown.
its an issue on both sides, and target shields has a much greater tactical value if your not facing vm spammers (I have 2 identical officers except one has ttarget aux 3 and the other has target shields 3)
Its all about choices tbh. If you spec for fast killing (glass cannon), you cannot complain about poor flexibility ? People like me, who actualy dont use the "best" builds, but rather pick multiple different abilties are better prepared to deal with different situations.
On my old beam escort wich i dont play now, i had target weapons/shields instead of torp/rapid fire multiple times, if i did play klingon i would aim for shields/aux. But hey thats me.
I dont have problem with any abilty tbh. But i have problem with stacking same abilties in favour of diversity. But generaly, the CCs should be alot shorter. I did play escort in T5 pvp, and i can tell you eating VM twice in row, isnt fun in my eyes too.
Hmm, didn't know Sub beam had such high returns from Aux.... Would hate to see a nerf to the Aux return as that seems to make aux actually useful. Maybe a longer shared cool down with VM would be an appropriate fix?
Also keep in mind that once the Sci team fix is implemented, you won't get hit hard by VM and sub has a 1 min 30 sec cooldown.
Most abilties wich are affected by aux, see great improvement in levels 85+. That goes for both sci and eng abilties. So the ability to prevent them reach higher numbers is of great tactical value.
Comments
You would think with all the pvp games that have ever come out, that any new developer would realize that "losing control of the character is bad". but they make that mistake over and over.
There's no game-killing mistake in pvp worse than CC, seriously. One shot kills too.
Indeed, it's baffling that these mechanics make it in, it's like the developers (of all recent mmo's not just STO) don't even play games.
Hopefully Cryptic will realize how UNFUN these "spells" are.
Thanks for all the thoughtful posts you have made in the past, whether we agreed or disagreed.
Though I'm pretty sure I mostly agreed with you
I think the reason for them was to act as hold in space. This is a very typical mechanic in most mmos. However, I feel it's still overpowered. It wouldn't be so bad if you could at least heal yourself through the process. If they allwed that, then I think the skill would be ok.
Heh dotson. Anyhow, holds in pvp are teh suhk.
Should break on damage, as in WoW.
I sympathize with your post, but these two spells are simply FUN BREAKING for me and I'd bet 95% of average PvPers.
I'm not going to hope that in a hectic PUG fight someone decides to throw Science Team 1 on me or APO.
And I can't have APO since no Klingon Cruiser has a Lt. Commander level Tactical BOF slot at any tier.
T4 play is just NOT FUN.
In T5 I would prefer the Klingon Cruiser, but now AM FORCED to take Carrier for APO.
So they throw VM on me and I counter with Science Team 1--when they fix it so I can do so (using it when my opponent wants me to use it).
They throw SubNuc Beam on me and I have no counter. And I can't do the same to them unless I'm a Science Captain.
What a waste of time.
No thanks. These are FUN BREAKING spells.
Give us something to help resistance or whatever. These two "spells" are not fun for most PvPers. Being taken out of the fight and passively watching as I get blown up is not fun.
Blow me up all the time, I don't care, but it's just not fun when my console goes blank. That I will not tolerate. I voted with my money.
Also these jamming abilities force teamwork and communication and while some ppl are either unable or unwilling to work in units and communicate i do not think that removing these mechanics to cater to them is a good idea as it drastically lowers the teamwork and skill required to be successful in pvp.
Unfortunatly as with most games the poorly skilled and lazy players who require something to point at and say "thats why i lose" tend to outnumber those who are willing to learn, communicate and work in units.
Virals active time needs to be lowered and cool down raised. Also it needs to be made clear weather higher versions of sci team prevent different versions of viral. The new implementation that is supposed to be coming of having sci team remove it during effect should only work if the sci team is higher than the viral. ST1 should not remove VM III for example. This should be similar for most skills. If you have used your commander slot on a BOF for a certain skill it should be worth it.
Subnucs acive time needs to be limited or have some counter to remove it. Being able to use no skills for 25+ seconds is a death sentance. Not to mention the lol combo with a skilled up sensor scan III.
Finally both of thse skills should not be stackable. By this I mean you cant just keep spamming viral / sub nuc onto the same person over to increase the active time. The first time one of them hits it should instantly create some immunity for the next 30 seconds or whatever.
I then hope that you experience SubNuc Beam soon.
There was some pretty skillful play in T2 and T3. I was on the giving end and the receiving end equally. THAT WAS FUN.
T4 is a joke. Getting Mezzed over and over and over and being blown up as I passively watch is not skillful play on my opponent's part. With VM it's him pressing a button faster (and in the case of VM, it's the Dooms Day button), OR having an extra ship in the team that can cast it again when I counter the first Mez he throws at me.
But there is no counter to the 22 second SubNuc Beam Mez so it's my opponent having an ability inherent to the Science Captain that completely takes me out of the game for 22 seconds. 22 seconds I have to watch as my ship gets blown up while I am able to do absolutely nothing about it (except cancelling my account). NOT FUN.
What is the skill in having an "I win" button?, for surely, the Science Captain only Skill Subneucleonic Beam is an "I win" button.
There is no skill involved. Press the button and your opponent is helpless for 22 seconds even as you pound her/him. There is no skill there. Explain where you see skill.
The JOY of Playing is gone.
Overall, for most PvPers, this will be the reason they quit. NOT FUN.
And kindly do not impute that I am "poorly skilled and lazy."
I played and had fun, but I choose not to play now when, frankly, due to these bizzare spells, I actually can't do anything in the game except watch myself die.
Regardless, thank you for your post.
The changes you want are in the works lol. I really don't get the nerf VM threads anymore. The devs agree with you. Its getting nerfed. There are many good reasons to cancel a subscription. The devs agreeing with your point of view is not one of them.
Unless, when its fixed, you don't want to equip science team I because you don't feel that you should have to counter the CC in the first place. In that case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Oh, and there is cannon precedent for VM. In TNG the enterprise got TRIBBLE multiple times. Ditto voyager. In DS9 the Breen had a weapon that did exactly what vm does now (Not to mention that the station itself got TRIBBLE on multiple occasions). So the "It's magic in space" argument applies to all of star trek. Just FYI.
Edit for great Justice: In Wrath of Khan, Round 1 of Kirk vs. Khan, Kirk uses Viral matrix to disable Khans shields. Literally using the computer to disable the enemy ship.
I personally think they should have a test server up with dedicated dev support to figure out the best ways to approach the skill changes accross the board.
Does SubNuc Beam get removed with a Science Team like VM?
If so, then there is no problem. VM has a counter and, annoying as VM may be, the counter is readily available if you play socially.
I think his problem is with SubNuc beam, which is, supposedly undefendable (I don't have it yet, so I cant tell for sure)....Undefendable anything is a bad thing. If it is a long-duration unbrekable form of CC, specifically so.
40 seconds, every 100% talent/skill ,... on timer.
That was pretty... not so fun.
Its not the effect that is in question or that it needs countering, its the attitude of "im quitting call me when the thing i dont like is gone".
The game needs a rock paper scissors aspect of these highly delibatating effects or it becomes all about spamming the fire button.
Now buffing or adjusting science team, omega and other effects so they are better as well as perhaps adjusting coooldowns ect are positive ideas that myself and others will support but "games broke cos of X, im quitting" will gain you nothing but derision from serious gamers and pvpers.
The skill is in you communicating to your team the problem and them acting to either counter it (when the counter is implemented) and or buffing/RRing you so you survive, while your team also works offensivly.
I suggest you start thinking of pvp as a team effort or you are always going to find "broken mechanics/i-win buttons" when the truth is you are just trying to make pvp like solo mission running............its not and never will be no matter how many things you blame.
Sorry dude but all that tells me is that you started off against players of the same skill level and while they have now adapted and become more proficient within the currant game mechanics you are either unwilling or unable to do so and instead have ran to the forum to get the game changed to suit your currant level of skill.
PVPers will always look for and find new ways of winning against other players, its what we do and after all the mechanics of the game are available to everybody.
Like wise there will always be those who as i say are either unwilling or unable to do so and run to the forums saying they will quit unless X is changed cos its making them lose.
Im sure the game will change many times over the months and years so if i were you i would either adapt to it and spend your time playing and enjoying the game or just quit for good cos blaming mechanics that are available to all is a never ending cycle.
You make good points, but most people are not here to play Grandmaster Chess PvP. I would just dump the skills. Make them something fun, not unfun.
Also, a Klingon Cruiser doesn't have a Lt. Commander Science BOF slot so I can't have Science Team III.
I appreciate all of your points and they are very good ones. I understand team play. The problem is that most people who PvP will soon be bored with the limited scope of PvP available in the arenas, and having a kick in the pants like SubNuc Beam will just have them cancelling sooner and uninstalling STO and loading up a game that's more fun.
Cryptic said they wanted a game that was fun and accessible to most players. They meant PvE mainly, but I'm quite sure they don't want PvP to be "unfun."
Hold spells are just not fun.
Actually kirk uses the Reliant's command override code to disable khan's shielding, a measure designed to stop someone hijacking a federation starship. Two things you might want to note there, firstly Khan countered it after the Enterprise's first attack, and secondly, he wasn't exactly hacking Khan's computer in the conventional sense, more taking control of a stolen computer.
The point of this pedantic little correction? The subneucleonic beam, VM combo isn't readily counterable. It's STO's lolcombo. I think the main problem is that it can be chained, so you can chainstun someone continually if they don't have APO. And before you come out with "LOLZ JUST CARRY APO AND YOU WIN NOOB", not all of us want to, or indeed can, carry a tactical officer with attack pattern omega. Why should I lose my commander bridge slot so I can counter the nastiest Iwin stun skill in the game. I think the way to fix this would be to have science team (maybe engineering team too) remove both subneuc and VM, and make you totally immune from both for the duration of the buff. That way you only TRIBBLE up someone who isn't prepared, and the mezstorm will be reduced. This will also do what I'm guessing VM and Subneuc is supposed to do in the first place, which is to stop healers from healing for a short time, since they have to fire their science team/eng team to remove the debuff, and hence they lose their strongest insta-heal for 45 seconds and any other "teams" for the group cooldown period.
In the Wrath of Khan, kirk didn't go "ROFL Viral Matrix" then fly rings around a completely disabled Reliant while Khan threw coffee at the viewscreen.
Granted, granted. I'm smarter than I post. How else to make sure this gets done ASAP?
Also, you didn't address SubNucleonic Beam. That's a 22-25 second "I win" button.
Have you played in T4? Perhaps you have. I have seen slaughters, but no close matches. I'm sure a lot of players are really p'd off in T4. If I cancelled, which I did (I'll come back when/if they fix it), how many players will cancel and not give a darn about coming back, fix or no fix?
Btw, 92.4% of all statistical citations are generated on the spot.
if skills like subnucleonic beam and viral matrix lasted MAYBE 6 seconds tops I would be fine with it because it promoted skillful play. But it doesn't and it lasts 17 seconds if you don't buff it adaquitely, thats 1/3 of a minute, in competative pvp thats FOREVER.
sad to see you go, but I really hope to get you back (once they fix that TRIBBLE)
1) It only works wonders when you have 100-125 in aux with additional buffs from consoles,skills, deflectors and the sci ship bonus. At 25 aux (for example) it is nothing noteworthy (8 seconds I think).
2) It's a player ability, not a boff ability. Can you counter The engineer's rotate shield frequency, Nadion inverion, EPS power transfer or miracle worker,? What about attack pattern alpha/omega? Can we remove those buffs?
3) You can still move when beam'd unlike when you're VM'd. Hit full power to engines and run in a straight line. You'd be amazed how often this works wonders, because the enemy has to switch full power to engines (read: reduce power to weapons) just to keep up.
Now, I've never used VM, though I'll give it a try in t4 (played T2 science vessel in beta, T2 escort, T3 cruiser, going for T4 science to give me a nice perspective on how each class handles), but I do know that Subnucleonic shares a cool down with Tykens rift. Now, if Sub shares a cooldown with VM, I don't see a problem honestly. If it doesn't share a cooldown, it should.
If it does share a cool down, and you get VM'd, then beamed, then VM'd, ad infinum, then you are probably
being targetted by multiple enemies and you should either a) die if you are alone as anyone and everyone should loose in a 1 vs. group scenario or b) have your teammates save your TRIBBLE by killing the enemy targets or healing you.
Surely you jest. SubNuc Beam is all about spamming the fire button.
5 Science ships with Science Captains target 5 enemy ships and throw a 22 second "you Can't Do Anthing" Mez on them and Tractor Beam. 5 enemy ships are now helpless. In 22 seconds the Science Ships spam the fire button and kill at least 2 enemy ships and the other 3 are now 5 vs 3. One more enemy ship goes boom.
The Science Ships heal one another till they get the mez back. Rinse and repeat.
You call this skill?
The problem with APO being the only counter that works on yourself AFTER you're hit with VM, is the first level of it is a LtCmdr BOff power, thus only escort captains and the Klingon Carrier Captains can use it. Science and Cruiser vessels only ever get up to Lt Tactical stations. Before anyone says, "but the BoP has universal slots", it is classified as a multi-role Escort, thus is included in the escort category.
Science teams on the other had start at the ensign level , so a Lt Science BOff can have ST1 and ST2, which with their 45 sec recharge and 20 sec shared cooldown, would leave a 5 sec window in which you can get hit with VM. Of course if you're hit with it during that time in any ship that can't have APO and noone on your team has ST available (dont' have or on cooldown) to help you , then you're screwed. At least until the patch that fixes ST to be usable after you're VM'd.
Thanks faithborn.
I play feds and I have never had 4 out of 5 ships be science ships (let alone 5 out of 5) on my team. I wish I was that lucky lol. Hell, I don't think I've had 5 science ships on my team in the big capture and hold maps. Maybe that will change when I hit T4 in 30 minutes or so.
And science ships actually healing one another does, unfortunately, give them more skill than the average feds I play with in pugs. If you are fighting 5 science ships, you might be having a bad run of luck against premades?
Also, don't klingons get some sort of ridiculous T5 science ship equivalent called a carrier?
its an issue on both sides, and target shields has a much greater tactical value if your not facing vm spammers (I have 2 identical officers except one has ttarget aux 3 and the other has target shields 3)
first point and second points are premade issues
and carriers are balanced when piloted by a competant player, although a little on the weaker side. the only issue that could make them "OP" is the fact that you can exploit to get past the normal ship limit.
Also keep in mind that once the Sci team fix is implemented, you won't get hit hard by VM and sub has a 1 min 30 sec cooldown.
Its all about choices tbh. If you spec for fast killing (glass cannon), you cannot complain about poor flexibility ? People like me, who actualy dont use the "best" builds, but rather pick multiple different abilties are better prepared to deal with different situations.
On my old beam escort wich i dont play now, i had target weapons/shields instead of torp/rapid fire multiple times, if i did play klingon i would aim for shields/aux. But hey thats me.
I dont have problem with any abilty tbh. But i have problem with stacking same abilties in favour of diversity. But generaly, the CCs should be alot shorter. I did play escort in T5 pvp, and i can tell you eating VM twice in row, isnt fun in my eyes too.
Most abilties wich are affected by aux, see great improvement in levels 85+. That goes for both sci and eng abilties. So the ability to prevent them reach higher numbers is of great tactical value.