WoW and SWG are the only other MMO's that I have experience with, so I'm inevitably comparing the three.
I only played SWG for a couple of weeks, because my (older) machine really couldn't handle it. I bailed and never went back, but the one thing I remember thinking was pretty cool about it was the apparent ability to build your own permanent structures on planets, and furnish them, equip them, park your stuff there, etc. (I say "apparent" because I never progressed to the point where I could afford to actually do that.)
I've been playing WoW for more than a year, and have progressed several toons to the point where there's not much left to do except groups, raids, etc. Which is cool. But the content is so expansive, and there are several races and classes than I have yet to try, so I'll keep coming back to WoW - especially since they are coming out with regular updates and expanded content.
I see lots of people (presumably with more MMO experience than I have) on these boards really complaining about the lack of content in STO. I can't disagree with much of the criticism I see here, but I also don't agree with a lot of the proposed "fixes." You know what they say about opinions...
Anyway, so my question is this: for those of you who played WoW and/or SWG (or any other MMO for that matter) in their pre-launch and/or early post-launch phases, were the gripes similar? For example, were people complaining about a lack of content in WoW so vociferously in its first week of launch? How quickly did these games ramp up their content to the point of making their games fun to play in an ongoing way?
I'm asking, because I'm wondering if we can expect a substantial increase in future content and features from Cryptic - enough to justify continuing my current "let's wait and see" give-em-a-chance posture. I never played Champions Online, but the rumours I'm seeing here suggest that the company basically "abandoned" the game, in terms of better content. Will they ultimately do the same with STO?
Anyway, so my question is this: for those of you who played WoW and/or SWG (or any other MMO for that matter) in their pre-launch and/or early post-launch phases, were the gripes similar? For example, were people complaining about a lack of content in WoW so vociferously in its first week of launch? How quickly did these games ramp up their content to the point of making their games fun to play in an ongoing way?
SWG had no contents; you had only mission terminals which generated random missions... very limited ones. You didnt even have vehicles for a while at release. But SWG was a sandbox mmo; so players can still "make" their own contents; entertainers and crafters provided tools to build an in game society.
In games where the only real option for gameplay is combat; you need more elaborate missions and enough of them to keep people busy. Wow is such a game; and had enough contents for a while; and by the time they added new contents; few people realized much was missing. There was also open world PvP which in itself keeps people busy.
WoW and SWG are the only other MMO's that I have experience with, so I'm inevitably comparing the three.
I only played SWG for a couple of weeks, because my (older) machine really couldn't handle it. I bailed and never went back, but the one thing I remember thinking was pretty cool about it was the apparent ability to build your own permanent structures on planets, and furnish them, equip them, park your stuff there, etc. (I say "apparent" because I never progressed to the point where I could afford to actually do that.)
I've been playing WoW for more than a year, and have progressed several toons to the point where there's not much left to do except groups, raids, etc. Which is cool. But the content is so expansive, and there are several races and classes than I have yet to try, so I'll keep coming back to WoW - especially since they are coming out with regular updates and expanded content.
I see lots of people (presumably with more MMO experience than I have) on these boards really complaining about the lack of content in STO. I can't disagree with much of the criticism I see here, but I also don't agree with a lot of the proposed "fixes." You know what they say about opinions...
Anyway, so my question is this: for those of you who played WoW and/or SWG (or any other MMO for that matter) in their pre-launch and/or early post-launch phases, were the gripes similar? For example, were people complaining about a lack of content in WoW so vociferously in its first week of launch? How quickly did these games ramp up their content to the point of making their games fun to play in an ongoing way?
I'm asking, because I'm wondering if we can expect a substantial increase in future content and features from Cryptic - enough to justify continuing my current "let's wait and see" give-em-a-chance posture. I never played Champions Online, but the rumours I'm seeing here suggest that the company basically "abandoned" the game, in terms of better content. Will they ultimately do the same with STO?
WoW had plenty to do at launch.. SWG had boring quests but it was huge and a very social MMO. I really loved it and it is my favorite to date ( RIP ) A speak and spell has more content then STO has currently
You can't compair because they are different companies. What one will do has nothing to do with what Cryptic will do.
As far as CO. I believe it became a placeholder and a cash increase for STO once Cryptic got the rights to ST. So the development of CO also should not directly correlate to STO future content. STO is a much bigger IP and cash cow that CO could ever be.
So experience tells me that Cryptic knows STO is where the money is. This means they will put more money and effort into this game than CO. They just added in a bit for level 43+ with this patch. Raidisodes are on the way as well as some kind of diplomacy. I believe the game will expand as others have before it becasue of the STO game. But that is just an opinion not based on any facts.
IIRC LotRO didn't have skills past lvl 43 at launch. Age of Conan had a similar problem. WoW wasn't thad bad but their design philosophy is different from Cryptics. It's said by Blizzard that their goal was 300 hours to reach max level in classic WoW. While it is much faster to do it now, that was back then at release.
The biggest problem with STO is that the size is an illusion. Just like EVE, most of it is space, and space is easy to create. To make it appear larger than it is, they added subspace traveling. But that's not any different than the ship/zeppelin between continents in WoW, except that you habe to maneuver it yourself and that it takes longer time. The actual experience of traveling in subspace isn't anything special after the first 2 minutes.
WoW was atually much harder than people remember (though not as hard as EQ). EVE is not really comparable either because it's really a PvP-game.
City of Heroes had a pretty large area IIRC but they also had content problems in the end (only 1 raid, ever, and it was outdoors) - it didn't go as fast to reach max level as it does in STO though.
If you're out for a pure PvE experience I'd say that Vanguard is probably the biggest kept secret among MMO gamers. While it was totally craptastic at release and lost most of its subscribers, I actually recommend people to try it out now. Unless they care much of graphics that is. :P The Disciple in Vanguard is probably one of the most fun classes I've played in any game.
Ooooh dear - this could turn into an epic threadnaught...
I think you can't compare WoW to SWG - apples and oranges, you see. WoW is standard MMORPG fayer, SWG was pure sandbox when it shipped.
STO is an odd duck with its skill trees so it's not really like either. One thing is certain - at the present time STO is not (alas!) a sandbox - I wish it were and I hope we get more "sandboxy" elements added as the game matures. I'm hopeful as CZ did say he wanted more sandbox in the game.
You can't compair because they are different companies. What one will do has nothing to do with what Cryptic will do.
As far as CO. I believe it became a placeholder and a cash increase for STO once Cryptic got the rights to ST. So the development of CO also should not directly correlate to STO future content. STO is a much bigger IP and cash cow that CO could ever be.
So experience tells me that Cryptic knows STO is where the money is. This means they will put more money and effort into this game than CO. They just added in a bit for level 43+ with this patch. Raidisodes are on the way as well as some kind of diplomacy. I believe the game will expand as others have before it becasue of the STO game. But that is just an opinion not based on any facts.
Of course you can compare. The fact that they are different companies is irrelevant - they are each providing content and a service (the "product") to the consumer. I'm not saying that Cryptic "will" emulate other companies. But it's clear from what I'm seeing on these boards that people are not enjoying STO as much as they enjoy other MMO's. So what I'm trying to understand is the extent to which other MMO's suffered similar "growing pains."
The other fact that bears on this is that if people continue to be dissatisfied with the game, they will bail. And if enough bail, the game will no longer be profitable, and will die. Given the history of other games, can we expect that Cryptic will ramp things up to avoid this? Or is STO simply a short-term money grab for them?
But my real question is about the game itself. How much early griping was there about WoW, SWG, or others that eventually got "fixed" once the game got past its "growing pains?" Like I said in the OP, I still enjoy WoW, and expect to for some time to come. Like many here, I'm a Trek geek, so I'd like to remain optimistic that STO will improve. But I'm just not familiar enough with the history of other MMO's to determine whether I'm being overly-optimistic, and should just save my money and drop the game once I make Admiral...
One thing is certain - at the present time STO is not (alas!) a sandbox - I wish it were and I hope we get more "sandboxy" elements added as the game matures. I'm hopeful as CZ did say he wanted more sandbox in the game.
I'm less interested in people's opinions about what will improve the game (there are thousands of threads about that, already) than I am the history of other MMO's. Can we realistically expect Cryptic to improve and expand the content to the point where STO will enjoy a consistent customer base the way WoW seems to have?
Of course you can compare. The fact that they are different companies is irrelevant - they are each providing content and a service (the "product") to the consumer. I'm not saying that Cryptic "will" emulate other companies. But it's clear from what I'm seeing on these boards that people are not enjoying STO as much as they enjoy other MMO's. So what I'm trying to understand is the extent to which other MMO's suffered similar "growing pains."
The other fact that bears on this is that if people continue to be dissatisfied with the game, they will bail. And if enough bail, the game will no longer be profitable, and will die. Given the history of other games, can we expect that Cryptic will ramp things up to avoid this? Or is STO simply a short-term money grab for them?
But my real question is about the game itself. How much early griping was there about WoW, SWG, or others that eventually got "fixed" once the game got past its "growing pains?" Like I said in the OP, I still enjoy WoW, and expect to for some time to come. Like many here, I'm a Trek geek, so I'd like to remain optimistic that STO will improve. But I'm just not familiar enough with the history of other MMO's to determine whether I'm being overly-optimistic, and should just save my money and drop the game once I make Admiral...
Most major gripes got fixed in both games and believe me both launched with problems that were IMHO worse than STO. Cryptic have a very very stronge base on which to build STO into a really great MMORPG.
I can't see the future (fortunately), but looking at WoW and SWG I'd say STO looks very promising indeed.
I'm less interested in people's opinions about what will improve the game (there are thousands of threads about that, already) than I am the history of other MMO's. Can we realistically expect Cryptic to improve and expand the content to the point where STO will enjoy a consistent customer base the way WoW seems to have?
I'd say yes, considering the strength of the i.p.
STO is far more new-player friendly than SWG ever was. What is more, and getting back to that solid gold i.p. again, Star Trek is a part of Western culture in a way WoW never was and never will be - even in "geek culture" Star Trek is monolithic compared to WoW.
The only advantages WoW has are maturity, experience of the development team and a solid finanacial base. Cryptic have a great financial start, they appear committed to the game in a big way and their team have done pretty good job so far squashing major issues since CB.
The pieces are all in place: Cryptic has a chance to make STO at least as solid a name in the MMORPG arena as WoW.
Star Trek Online is not even a month old where as SWG and WoW have years of content development behind them. This isn't a fair comparison considering that the aforementioned games have had years of opportunity to add and refine content and gameplay. Despite some similarity, STO has a completely different content model. Each episode is packaged differently since the instancing technology allows for much more diverse and enriched story telling in a very similar fashion to CoX. I am sure in the years to come, STO will grow and improve but at this time, there is no basis for comparison.
Of course you can compare. The fact that they are different companies is irrelevant - they are each providing content and a service (the "product") to the consumer. I'm not saying that Cryptic "will" emulate other companies. But it's clear from what I'm seeing on these boards that people are not enjoying STO as much as they enjoy other MMO's. So what I'm trying to understand is the extent to which other MMO's suffered similar "growing pains."
The other fact that bears on this is that if people continue to be dissatisfied with the game, they will bail. And if enough bail, the game will no longer be profitable, and will die. Given the history of other games, can we expect that Cryptic will ramp things up to avoid this? Or is STO simply a short-term money grab for them?
But my real question is about the game itself. How much early griping was there about WoW, SWG, or others that eventually got "fixed" once the game got past its "growing pains?" Like I said in the OP, I still enjoy WoW, and expect to for some time to come. Like many here, I'm a Trek geek, so I'd like to remain optimistic that STO will improve. But I'm just not familiar enough with the history of other MMO's to determine whether I'm being overly-optimistic, and should just save my money and drop the game once I make Admiral...
Ok, I was talking about growth past launch as far as content. If you are just talking about the usual forum *****ing. Then yes, they are all the same. The forums are filled with unhappy players in every new MMO ever made. It is what the forums are for.
If all I read were the forums, then I would thnk this game would fail in a month. But I put more stock to what is said in chat in game. As well as other players I group with. It is a much different story in game than on the forums. There is a much much higher percentage of players that like the game while playing.
So bottom line is that this is nothng new. It is the same QQ and rage quit you see in every MMO on the forums. And just about every MMO is still there with some kind of player base. This game is not going anywhere. It will make money, it will expand, it will change over time and keep a good size player base.
STO is far more new-player friendly than SWG ever was. What is more, and getting back to that solid gold i.p. again, Star Trek is a part of Western culture in a way WoW never was and never will be - even in "geek culture" Star Trek is monolithic compared to WoW.
The only advantages WoW has are maturity, experience of the development team and a solid finanacial base. Cryptic have a great financial start, they appear committed to the game in a big way and their team have done pretty good job so far squashing major issues since CB.
The pieces are all in place: Cryptic has a chance to make STO at least as solid a name in the MMORPG arena as WoW.
Very interesting point, and one I frankly hadn't considered. And you're right: I myself have a whole bookshelf of material based on "Star Trek canon" - encyclopedias; episode guides; a very well-done (but short-lived) magazine that displayed ship designs, uniforms, aliens, etc.; maps; etc. The source material was enough to "supply" several television series - surely there's enough to fuel one little MMO, right...?
I guess we can only hope. I was just trying to get a handle on the history of MMOs, and how these games are developed. Obviously, it's up to Cryptic to carry the ball.
The other fact that bears on this is that if people continue to be dissatisfied with the game, they will bail. And if enough bail, the game will no longer be profitable, and will die. Given the history of other games, can we expect that Cryptic will ramp things up to avoid this? Or is STO simply a short-term money grab for them?
But my real question is about the game itself. How much early griping was there about WoW, SWG, or others that eventually got "fixed" once the game got past its "growing pains?" Like I said in the OP, I still enjoy WoW, and expect to for some time to come. Like many here, I'm a Trek geek, so I'd like to remain optimistic that STO will improve. But I'm just not familiar enough with the history of other MMO's to determine whether I'm being overly-optimistic, and should just save my money and drop the game once I make Admiral...
The problem with forums like these is that it's impossible to get a good gauge on what the real sentiment of players is regarding the game. Forums tend to be far more negative and, honestly, many times it's a complete downer to visit them. My overwhelming suggestion to you would be to keep paying as long as you are enjoying your playtime and find it's worth the cost of admission. To follow any other mandate except that is to court your own dissatisfaction.
As for comparisons, SWG was my favorite game for a number of years and a very different beast from STO. The sandbox has been mentioned as well as crafting and the sheer size of the title. I think what's important is how you define 'content'. SWG severely lacked content; what it had were very robust systems. Crafting, character development, player dependencies, vast (though empty) landscapes. The fun for me was in playing with friends, exploring, and levelling.
STO offers more in the way of what I consider to be content, in the form of extensive storylines and context for character actions but less robust systems. I, personally, don't see Cryptic as a money-grabbing company, any more than any company that tries to make a profit is. I've discerned a real enthusiasm for their product by the producers/developers here and the little flourishes in the game show an affection for the IP while still delivering a game.
BTW, for anyone just interested in ship-to-ship combat online, check out Darkspace (www.darkspace.net). A friend of mine got me hooked on that game and I play it for about a year until my friends found "The Next Big Thing."
Star Trek Online is not even a month old where as SWG and WoW have years of content development behind them. This isn't a fair comparison considering that the aforementioned games have had years of opportunity to add and refine content and gameplay. Despite some similarity, STO has a completely different content model. Each episode is packaged differently since the instancing technology allows for much more diverse and enriched story telling in a very similar fashion to CoX. I am sure in the years to come, STO will grow and improve but at this time, there is no basis for comparison.
OK, let me try to clarify: I'm not trying to compare the GAMES themselves as much as I am trying to understand and appreciate the MMO game development model. The question I've been asking is, to what extent are STO's obvious "growing pain" issues similar to those experienced by other newly-released games? My assumption is that if there are similarities, then we can indeed anticipate that STO will improve, just as most of the other games apparently have.
The problem with forums like these is that it's impossible to get a good gauge on what the real sentiment of players is regarding the game. Forums tend to be far more negative and, honestly, many times it's a complete downer to visit them. My overwhelming suggestion to you would be to keep paying as long as you are enjoying your playtime and find it's worth the cost of admission. To follow any other mandate except that is to court your own dissatisfaction.
As for comparisons, SWG was my favorite game for a number of years and a very different beast from STO. The sandbox has been mentioned as well as crafting and the sheer size of the title. I think what's important is how you define 'content'. SWG severely lacked content; what it had were very robust systems. Crafting, character development, player dependencies, vast (though empty) landscapes. The fun for me was in playing with friends, exploring, and levelling.
STO offers more in the way of what I consider to be content, in the form of extensive storylines and context for character actions but less robust systems. I, personally, don't see Cryptic as a money-grabbing company, any more than any company that tries to make a profit is. I've discerned a real enthusiasm for their product by the producers/developers here and the little flourishes in the game show an affection for the IP while still delivering a game.
If all I read were the forums, then I would thnk this game would fail in a month. But I put more stock to what is said in chat in game. As well as other players I group with. It is a much different story in game than on the forums. There is a much much higher percentage of players that like the game while playing.
Vocal minority is what it is. People content with the game do not flock to the forums and ***** like teenage girls.
I'm willing to bet that number of people happy with STO outnumber the people not happy 10:1.
I have played WoW for years and I have found that the only consistent things on the BLizzard wow forums is complaining. Plain and simple. You can not read a thread without havng someone complain about some mechanic or content and say how much they hate the game and how they are going to cancel their 4 year subscription because now Blizzard has just ruined the game.
I guess the moral of the story is look at what Cryptic has done so far. Most issues have been resolved and they are going balls to the wall to develope new, interesting and requested content. I am very excited for this game and look forward to playing it for a good long while.
I have played SWG since launch and still play the game now. SWG has far more different things to do than any other MMO out there. I have yet to see an MMO that can match SWG's crafting, resource harvesting, or player interaction with the server environment through player structures and player cities. Unfortunately, the forum trolls and overblown reactions to the poorly implemented NGE pushed SWG onto Lucas Arts back burner and the game will simmer there until SOE goes out of business.
In direct comparison to STO, SWG offers more to do over a long period of time. A player could log in and spend hours on player-made content or jumping from one activity to another. Crafting, resource harvesting, GCW, PvP, PVE, Space Combat, questing, socializing, decorating, and grinding can all be found in SWG. Every player has a chance to leave his or her mark on the game server in a way that no other MMO to date can match.
However, this does not mean STO is less as an MMO than SWG. STO offers a great deal of content that is packaged in small episodic bits. One can log onto STO and accomplish a lot in a short period of time. Plus, the autopilot feature allows for socializing in between missions. Most other MMO's require hands on the keyboard to get from point A to B, thinking that to be "extra content."
For all of its alleged popularity, WoW is all about bling, min/maxing, and the endgame raids. I personally found very little social interaction. Crafting in WoW is a joke and the character customization is worse than Vanguard. One can quickly become bored with WoW.
Overall, STO and SWG can co-exist and have the same playerbase since the two games offer different experiences and meet different needs. STO offers a sense of the adventure that makes Trekkers and Trekies who they are while SWG lets one "feel the force" and build an Empire.
I think if SWG ever went back to prenge right before combat upgrade I would go back. It's been a long time though, but it was a very social game and I enjoyed exploring the large, open worlds. I had an awesome house that I had decorated and it was situated across the towns square from our cantina and shuttleport, so I could keep an eye on traffic.
I had so many friends in that game and even though there was little content in the game I was always, always busy doing something. A lot of my friends including myself role played, which added a whole other dimension to the game. I loved the space/ground aspect and my houses and ability to decorate and my clothes. This game was no where near perfect but it is the only game I have ever 'loved'.
WOW was a different type of game in many ways, some of them good some of them not so good. I had a lot of friends there too, many of them fellow refugees from SWG NGE. I think the social aspect of WOW was really why I enjoyed it so much. I liked the quests and group content too, but never did enjoy raids. The game has a lot of nice features and the ui is very responsive and brisk. There is a complexity to the game, it just depends how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go.
The downside of WOW was there was an abundance of rude, obnoxious children in the game. But 99% of the time I just ignored them, and I can't say they actually ruined my experience.
STO is Star Trek. I can't honestly say that it stacks up well against either of these games. It's more like Guild Wars than SWG or WOW, and infact has many similarities. Incidentally I loved GW for the time I played it. But eventually I maxed my character and I'm not particularly keen on alts. Also, as fun as GW was, there was a superficialty to it and a lack of social complexity. But you had henchmen there and we have BO's here. There was heavy instancing and zones.
I think the hour is very early for STO though, and it could grow into something very different from SWG or WOW but still very good. But do to design limitations, it wouldn't have the same appeal to me as either. But I have a lifetime subscription and I will be enjoying the game for a long while. And I still haven't cancelled my Fallen Earth subscription.
SWG forums were filled with complaining about every aspect of the game before, up to and long after the CU.
wow forums are famous for people that seem to sub just to complain.
by comparison the STO forums are pretty mild compared to the average mmo, especially during and for a few months after launch(it remains to be seen how the next few months will go for STO).
OK, let me try to clarify: I'm not trying to compare the GAMES themselves as much as I am trying to understand and appreciate the MMO game development model. The question I've been asking is, to what extent are STO's obvious "growing pain" issues similar to those experienced by other newly-released games? My assumption is that if there are similarities, then we can indeed anticipate that STO will improve, just as most of the other games apparently have.
STO (and CO) were modeled after Asian MMO models. They have a ton of instancing but the content can (and typically is) tailored to the user group experiencing it. Unfortunately it also requires more technical stability to work correctly and thats presently not the case (I've seen Asian MMO's with this model working and Cryptic did try in Beta but right now Genesis system is essentially in Static mode - meaning all generated content gets checked by a person before being put into Live play -)
I was in WoW Beta. As previous posters said it was a lot more robust but unfinished in certain areas and it took about 6 months to get more or less finished after launch. They did have a lot of assets and experience and the design wasn't radical or using new technology. It was just done very well (polished is what most people would say).
SWG was a technical nightmare at launch. It was, however, a radical design using very different technology. Also, it was an IP game that made it enjoyable just for the IP and the community of fans. Most of the technical problems were resolved in about 5 months but some remained for years. Not sure if the NGE resolved them as it didn't really matter at that point.
Essentially, to gauge this game you'd have to be familiar with the original design, monitor drastic Design changes and look at the how much technical issues get fixed. They are using a lot of stop gap design changes to stabilise things and if those keep, then the game will essentially be a different one than originally declared.
The main obstacle is the Technical problems (and it is an unusual design) - most western game companies have a lot of trouble with the design unless they are old school. Guild Wars & recently Dungeon Keeper (Garriot did it for NCSoft) are recent examples of the model. I'm guessing Cryptic became familiar with it while they were with NCSoft either from the Asian developers or Garriot and/or other Old school devs. Cryptic's knowledge of the model seems limited (I am an old school game dev).
Also, every major reviewer I saw before launch basically said they knew STO was going to crash at launch - they just didn't know to what degree - the IP will definately help mitigate the crash. What happens after that really depends on what Cryptic does. They don't have a good history of recovering from there launch crashes very well (design-wise), but what does survive the initial mess will generally get fixed.
Star Trek has tons of content, Cryptic's ability to bring it into STO is questionable (not bad or good - unproven) as they don't have a lot of history of doing inspired expansions (basically cosmetic and some new zones but otherwise same old stuff - just re-packaged in a better wrapping).
SWG had no contents; you had only mission terminals which generated random missions... very limited ones. You didnt even have vehicles for a while at release. But SWG was a sandbox mmo; so players can still "make" their own contents; entertainers and crafters provided tools to build an in game society.
In games where the only real option for gameplay is combat; you need more elaborate missions and enough of them to keep people busy. Wow is such a game; and had enough contents for a while; and by the time they added new contents; few people realized much was missing. There was also open world PvP which in itself keeps people busy.
Only content us SWG'ers had was DWB or "death watch bunker", also if you played up till patch 13.1 you also has Darth Vader content, in which he would come to random planets and kill jedi, for example, theed, coronet, etc.. but yes a majority of content was player generated, anchorhead battles, DJK vs LJK wars or or you were luck enough such as myself who ground out jedi content, you have had the Jedi Knight Trials once you're templete was complete
On a side note, we there use to be huge galatic civil wars zones you could participate in, however they were turned off with the intention of being revamped, but that all went to hell when CU/NGE came out..
Also forgot to mention, on Yavin IV there were Light and Dark Jedi temples, you were only able to enter these temples if you completed the jedi knight trials, there you were able to participate in content that allowed you fight other DJK's or LJK's depending which side you belonged to, allowing you to increase in rank and gain new jedi robes/titles. I would say justify that this was content. You were able to earn rewards for doing "something" in the game.
Also certain classes had their own content, Bounty Hunters were a prime example of a class that had there own content, during the Pre-CU days NOT CU/NGE. Once you completed MBH or Master Bounty Hunter you were then able to view the BH roster to see which real jedi, not NPC's gave off to much visibility, and were then able to track them, and hunt them down for anywhere between 250k-1 million credits
SWG had the most pvp fun hands down, I'm talkin pre cu/nge here. The game it's self was not bad, soloing w/ a tk/pistoleer was fun too. I had a large guild, a large player city, and my weaponsmith could make the best laser rifles on the server . Yea I liked it enough to have 2 acct's. I quit at the cu however, jedi's all over the place just did not appeal to me at all. The system they had was fine, it was just an example of devs listening to ppl qq because it was so hard to get jedi. They dont realize the ppl that are not qq'ng are too busy enjoying the game to bother posting on the forum.
WoW is fairly immersive in the pve department, and easy to learn, well thought out the way you lvl up and learn skills, a lot of ppl like how you can just slide into it, too bad it's like sliding into a comfortable KIA.
STO so far.. I wont lie, it has not impressed me, all the instancing really takes away from the space feel..and the ground, there is obviously ground in space, why have the scientists not told us about this !
I'm a lifer and I want STO to be good, but I am no liar and I wont keep defending a fail for no reason, I still hope they manage to pull a few thing out of the hat.
Talk about a couple of games that have serious immersion, anarchy online and vanguard. Omg there is so much to do in these two games it is crazy. If anarchy had a better game engine I would play it again.
I played auto assault too, it was fun but had bugs and terrible balance issues, most ppl could not get over the car thing, I had a friend try it but he just could not get used to the car avatar for some reason. I played it till the server went down, and I was playing the most gimped class, but still having fun.
EQ was immersive, I liked how it was actually hard to quest, I did my sk's weapon quest and it took me 2 months to complete it lol. You had to talk your friends/guild into helping, with no promise of loot or anything for them. It was just to help along your quest. Why I say it had a decent community, Nowdays in most of these games no one is going to help you by spending 3 hours of their time w/ nothing to gain but a thanks.
Some really fun times on EQ but the end game grind eventually led me to swg.
UO was fun pvp, fun housing thing, the criminal system has not been topped to this day. You could do anything there, treasure hunt, go fishing actually play a theif and steal ppl's stuff etc. Great fun.
AoC was really nice, till bout lvl 30 and somehow just got terribly boring, the spawn camping was out of control as well and class balance was a joke.
Aion was fun, for a while, the best graphics on an mmo by far that I have seen. But the endless grind, if you want an item it is prolly not a quest item, it is a griiiinnnnddd everything is a grind there, i hate to grind constantly killing the same carp over and over and over..Also some of the combat mechanics, especially while flying (which was supposed to be a main draw for the game) really suk'd.
So that is most of my mmo exp. Few others I wont bother to mention because I did not play them long or they were just bad all around.
Only content us SWG'ers had was DWB or "death watch bunker", also if you played up till patch 13.1 you also has Darth Vader content, in which he would come to random planets and kill jedi, for example, theed, coronet, etc.. but yes a majority of content was player generated, anchorhead battles, DJK vs LJK wars or or you were luck enough such as myself who ground out jedi content, you have had the Jedi Knight Trials once you're templete was complete
On a side note, we there use to be huge galatic civil wars zones you could participate in, however they were turned off with the intention of being revamped, but that all went to hell when CU/NGE came out..
SWG has changed much since you last subscribed. There is plenty of content, enough to keep a typical player busy for a good whiel.
BTW, the GCW is back on, PvP on a galaxy wide scale.
SWG has changed much since you last subscribed. There is plenty of content, enough to keep a typical player busy for a good whiel.
BTW, the GCW is back on, PvP on a galaxy wide scale.
Changed to the fact that since everyone whined because they couldnt be a jedi? SOE made it so that even a 6 year old could grind to level what is it now 90? Or the fact they scaled 32 amazing professions down to 9 because the SOE thought there were to much? Or the fact that on April 5th they changed/ruined a game that went from 500,000 players down to a measley 10,000 maybe even less seeing as they merged 16 servers, Tarquinas <-- my server to what 4?
Or the fact that when SOE took over the reigns from Lucas Arts and thought they were going to make something of this game, but infact turned it to sh*t. Infact EVERY game that SOE had, it has gone to sh*t
There is PLAYER GENERATED content because SoE lost the battle. its been said time and time again that SOE ruined a great game. they need to stick with making TV's, Computers and PS3's stay out of the MMORPG business because as faulty as cryptic is right now. I would rather be playing Star Trek Online with all the bugs, loss of detail in ships and missions then pay 14.99 to SOE and get some half-as* game that never should have been touched in the first place all because SOE thought hey lets listen to the 10 years old instead of just leaving the game alone.
By no means am I angry with you. But my point is that there is now player generated content because again as i said SOE has given up with SWG.
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SWG had no contents; you had only mission terminals which generated random missions... very limited ones. You didnt even have vehicles for a while at release. But SWG was a sandbox mmo; so players can still "make" their own contents; entertainers and crafters provided tools to build an in game society.
In games where the only real option for gameplay is combat; you need more elaborate missions and enough of them to keep people busy. Wow is such a game; and had enough contents for a while; and by the time they added new contents; few people realized much was missing. There was also open world PvP which in itself keeps people busy.
WoW had plenty to do at launch.. SWG had boring quests but it was huge and a very social MMO. I really loved it and it is my favorite to date ( RIP ) A speak and spell has more content then STO has currently
As far as CO. I believe it became a placeholder and a cash increase for STO once Cryptic got the rights to ST. So the development of CO also should not directly correlate to STO future content. STO is a much bigger IP and cash cow that CO could ever be.
So experience tells me that Cryptic knows STO is where the money is. This means they will put more money and effort into this game than CO. They just added in a bit for level 43+ with this patch. Raidisodes are on the way as well as some kind of diplomacy. I believe the game will expand as others have before it becasue of the STO game. But that is just an opinion not based on any facts.
The biggest problem with STO is that the size is an illusion. Just like EVE, most of it is space, and space is easy to create. To make it appear larger than it is, they added subspace traveling. But that's not any different than the ship/zeppelin between continents in WoW, except that you habe to maneuver it yourself and that it takes longer time. The actual experience of traveling in subspace isn't anything special after the first 2 minutes.
WoW was atually much harder than people remember (though not as hard as EQ). EVE is not really comparable either because it's really a PvP-game.
City of Heroes had a pretty large area IIRC but they also had content problems in the end (only 1 raid, ever, and it was outdoors) - it didn't go as fast to reach max level as it does in STO though.
If you're out for a pure PvE experience I'd say that Vanguard is probably the biggest kept secret among MMO gamers. While it was totally craptastic at release and lost most of its subscribers, I actually recommend people to try it out now. Unless they care much of graphics that is. :P The Disciple in Vanguard is probably one of the most fun classes I've played in any game.
I think you can't compare WoW to SWG - apples and oranges, you see. WoW is standard MMORPG fayer, SWG was pure sandbox when it shipped.
STO is an odd duck with its skill trees so it's not really like either. One thing is certain - at the present time STO is not (alas!) a sandbox - I wish it were and I hope we get more "sandboxy" elements added as the game matures. I'm hopeful as CZ did say he wanted more sandbox in the game.
The other fact that bears on this is that if people continue to be dissatisfied with the game, they will bail. And if enough bail, the game will no longer be profitable, and will die. Given the history of other games, can we expect that Cryptic will ramp things up to avoid this? Or is STO simply a short-term money grab for them?
But my real question is about the game itself. How much early griping was there about WoW, SWG, or others that eventually got "fixed" once the game got past its "growing pains?" Like I said in the OP, I still enjoy WoW, and expect to for some time to come. Like many here, I'm a Trek geek, so I'd like to remain optimistic that STO will improve. But I'm just not familiar enough with the history of other MMO's to determine whether I'm being overly-optimistic, and should just save my money and drop the game once I make Admiral...
Most major gripes got fixed in both games and believe me both launched with problems that were IMHO worse than STO. Cryptic have a very very stronge base on which to build STO into a really great MMORPG.
I can't see the future (fortunately), but looking at WoW and SWG I'd say STO looks very promising indeed.
I'd say yes, considering the strength of the i.p.
STO is far more new-player friendly than SWG ever was. What is more, and getting back to that solid gold i.p. again, Star Trek is a part of Western culture in a way WoW never was and never will be - even in "geek culture" Star Trek is monolithic compared to WoW.
The only advantages WoW has are maturity, experience of the development team and a solid finanacial base. Cryptic have a great financial start, they appear committed to the game in a big way and their team have done pretty good job so far squashing major issues since CB.
The pieces are all in place: Cryptic has a chance to make STO at least as solid a name in the MMORPG arena as WoW.
Ok, I was talking about growth past launch as far as content. If you are just talking about the usual forum *****ing. Then yes, they are all the same. The forums are filled with unhappy players in every new MMO ever made. It is what the forums are for.
If all I read were the forums, then I would thnk this game would fail in a month. But I put more stock to what is said in chat in game. As well as other players I group with. It is a much different story in game than on the forums. There is a much much higher percentage of players that like the game while playing.
So bottom line is that this is nothng new. It is the same QQ and rage quit you see in every MMO on the forums. And just about every MMO is still there with some kind of player base. This game is not going anywhere. It will make money, it will expand, it will change over time and keep a good size player base.
I guess we can only hope. I was just trying to get a handle on the history of MMOs, and how these games are developed. Obviously, it's up to Cryptic to carry the ball.
The problem with forums like these is that it's impossible to get a good gauge on what the real sentiment of players is regarding the game. Forums tend to be far more negative and, honestly, many times it's a complete downer to visit them. My overwhelming suggestion to you would be to keep paying as long as you are enjoying your playtime and find it's worth the cost of admission. To follow any other mandate except that is to court your own dissatisfaction.
As for comparisons, SWG was my favorite game for a number of years and a very different beast from STO. The sandbox has been mentioned as well as crafting and the sheer size of the title. I think what's important is how you define 'content'. SWG severely lacked content; what it had were very robust systems. Crafting, character development, player dependencies, vast (though empty) landscapes. The fun for me was in playing with friends, exploring, and levelling.
STO offers more in the way of what I consider to be content, in the form of extensive storylines and context for character actions but less robust systems. I, personally, don't see Cryptic as a money-grabbing company, any more than any company that tries to make a profit is. I've discerned a real enthusiasm for their product by the producers/developers here and the little flourishes in the game show an affection for the IP while still delivering a game.
I'm willing to bet that number of people happy with STO outnumber the people not happy 10:1.
I guess the moral of the story is look at what Cryptic has done so far. Most issues have been resolved and they are going balls to the wall to develope new, interesting and requested content. I am very excited for this game and look forward to playing it for a good long while.
In direct comparison to STO, SWG offers more to do over a long period of time. A player could log in and spend hours on player-made content or jumping from one activity to another. Crafting, resource harvesting, GCW, PvP, PVE, Space Combat, questing, socializing, decorating, and grinding can all be found in SWG. Every player has a chance to leave his or her mark on the game server in a way that no other MMO to date can match.
However, this does not mean STO is less as an MMO than SWG. STO offers a great deal of content that is packaged in small episodic bits. One can log onto STO and accomplish a lot in a short period of time. Plus, the autopilot feature allows for socializing in between missions. Most other MMO's require hands on the keyboard to get from point A to B, thinking that to be "extra content."
For all of its alleged popularity, WoW is all about bling, min/maxing, and the endgame raids. I personally found very little social interaction. Crafting in WoW is a joke and the character customization is worse than Vanguard. One can quickly become bored with WoW.
Overall, STO and SWG can co-exist and have the same playerbase since the two games offer different experiences and meet different needs. STO offers a sense of the adventure that makes Trekkers and Trekies who they are while SWG lets one "feel the force" and build an Empire.
I had so many friends in that game and even though there was little content in the game I was always, always busy doing something. A lot of my friends including myself role played, which added a whole other dimension to the game. I loved the space/ground aspect and my houses and ability to decorate and my clothes. This game was no where near perfect but it is the only game I have ever 'loved'.
WOW was a different type of game in many ways, some of them good some of them not so good. I had a lot of friends there too, many of them fellow refugees from SWG NGE. I think the social aspect of WOW was really why I enjoyed it so much. I liked the quests and group content too, but never did enjoy raids. The game has a lot of nice features and the ui is very responsive and brisk. There is a complexity to the game, it just depends how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go.
The downside of WOW was there was an abundance of rude, obnoxious children in the game. But 99% of the time I just ignored them, and I can't say they actually ruined my experience.
STO is Star Trek. I can't honestly say that it stacks up well against either of these games. It's more like Guild Wars than SWG or WOW, and infact has many similarities. Incidentally I loved GW for the time I played it. But eventually I maxed my character and I'm not particularly keen on alts. Also, as fun as GW was, there was a superficialty to it and a lack of social complexity. But you had henchmen there and we have BO's here. There was heavy instancing and zones.
I think the hour is very early for STO though, and it could grow into something very different from SWG or WOW but still very good. But do to design limitations, it wouldn't have the same appeal to me as either. But I have a lifetime subscription and I will be enjoying the game for a long while. And I still haven't cancelled my Fallen Earth subscription.
wow forums are famous for people that seem to sub just to complain.
by comparison the STO forums are pretty mild compared to the average mmo, especially during and for a few months after launch(it remains to be seen how the next few months will go for STO).
STO (and CO) were modeled after Asian MMO models. They have a ton of instancing but the content can (and typically is) tailored to the user group experiencing it. Unfortunately it also requires more technical stability to work correctly and thats presently not the case (I've seen Asian MMO's with this model working and Cryptic did try in Beta but right now Genesis system is essentially in Static mode - meaning all generated content gets checked by a person before being put into Live play -)
I was in WoW Beta. As previous posters said it was a lot more robust but unfinished in certain areas and it took about 6 months to get more or less finished after launch. They did have a lot of assets and experience and the design wasn't radical or using new technology. It was just done very well (polished is what most people would say).
SWG was a technical nightmare at launch. It was, however, a radical design using very different technology. Also, it was an IP game that made it enjoyable just for the IP and the community of fans. Most of the technical problems were resolved in about 5 months but some remained for years. Not sure if the NGE resolved them as it didn't really matter at that point.
Essentially, to gauge this game you'd have to be familiar with the original design, monitor drastic Design changes and look at the how much technical issues get fixed. They are using a lot of stop gap design changes to stabilise things and if those keep, then the game will essentially be a different one than originally declared.
The main obstacle is the Technical problems (and it is an unusual design) - most western game companies have a lot of trouble with the design unless they are old school. Guild Wars & recently Dungeon Keeper (Garriot did it for NCSoft) are recent examples of the model. I'm guessing Cryptic became familiar with it while they were with NCSoft either from the Asian developers or Garriot and/or other Old school devs. Cryptic's knowledge of the model seems limited (I am an old school game dev).
Also, every major reviewer I saw before launch basically said they knew STO was going to crash at launch - they just didn't know to what degree - the IP will definately help mitigate the crash. What happens after that really depends on what Cryptic does. They don't have a good history of recovering from there launch crashes very well (design-wise), but what does survive the initial mess will generally get fixed.
Star Trek has tons of content, Cryptic's ability to bring it into STO is questionable (not bad or good - unproven) as they don't have a lot of history of doing inspired expansions (basically cosmetic and some new zones but otherwise same old stuff - just re-packaged in a better wrapping).
Only content us SWG'ers had was DWB or "death watch bunker", also if you played up till patch 13.1 you also has Darth Vader content, in which he would come to random planets and kill jedi, for example, theed, coronet, etc.. but yes a majority of content was player generated, anchorhead battles, DJK vs LJK wars or or you were luck enough such as myself who ground out jedi content, you have had the Jedi Knight Trials once you're templete was complete
On a side note, we there use to be huge galatic civil wars zones you could participate in, however they were turned off with the intention of being revamped, but that all went to hell when CU/NGE came out..
Also certain classes had their own content, Bounty Hunters were a prime example of a class that had there own content, during the Pre-CU days NOT CU/NGE. Once you completed MBH or Master Bounty Hunter you were then able to view the BH roster to see which real jedi, not NPC's gave off to much visibility, and were then able to track them, and hunt them down for anywhere between 250k-1 million credits
WoW is fairly immersive in the pve department, and easy to learn, well thought out the way you lvl up and learn skills, a lot of ppl like how you can just slide into it, too bad it's like sliding into a comfortable KIA.
STO so far.. I wont lie, it has not impressed me, all the instancing really takes away from the space feel..and the ground, there is obviously ground in space, why have the scientists not told us about this !
I'm a lifer and I want STO to be good, but I am no liar and I wont keep defending a fail for no reason, I still hope they manage to pull a few thing out of the hat.
Talk about a couple of games that have serious immersion, anarchy online and vanguard. Omg there is so much to do in these two games it is crazy. If anarchy had a better game engine I would play it again.
I played auto assault too, it was fun but had bugs and terrible balance issues, most ppl could not get over the car thing, I had a friend try it but he just could not get used to the car avatar for some reason. I played it till the server went down, and I was playing the most gimped class, but still having fun.
EQ was immersive, I liked how it was actually hard to quest, I did my sk's weapon quest and it took me 2 months to complete it lol. You had to talk your friends/guild into helping, with no promise of loot or anything for them. It was just to help along your quest. Why I say it had a decent community, Nowdays in most of these games no one is going to help you by spending 3 hours of their time w/ nothing to gain but a thanks.
Some really fun times on EQ but the end game grind eventually led me to swg.
UO was fun pvp, fun housing thing, the criminal system has not been topped to this day. You could do anything there, treasure hunt, go fishing actually play a theif and steal ppl's stuff etc. Great fun.
AoC was really nice, till bout lvl 30 and somehow just got terribly boring, the spawn camping was out of control as well and class balance was a joke.
Aion was fun, for a while, the best graphics on an mmo by far that I have seen. But the endless grind, if you want an item it is prolly not a quest item, it is a griiiinnnnddd everything is a grind there, i hate to grind constantly killing the same carp over and over and over..Also some of the combat mechanics, especially while flying (which was supposed to be a main draw for the game) really suk'd.
So that is most of my mmo exp. Few others I wont bother to mention because I did not play them long or they were just bad all around.
SWG has changed much since you last subscribed. There is plenty of content, enough to keep a typical player busy for a good whiel.
BTW, the GCW is back on, PvP on a galaxy wide scale.
Changed to the fact that since everyone whined because they couldnt be a jedi? SOE made it so that even a 6 year old could grind to level what is it now 90? Or the fact they scaled 32 amazing professions down to 9 because the SOE thought there were to much? Or the fact that on April 5th they changed/ruined a game that went from 500,000 players down to a measley 10,000 maybe even less seeing as they merged 16 servers, Tarquinas <-- my server to what 4?
Or the fact that when SOE took over the reigns from Lucas Arts and thought they were going to make something of this game, but infact turned it to sh*t. Infact EVERY game that SOE had, it has gone to sh*t
There is PLAYER GENERATED content because SoE lost the battle. its been said time and time again that SOE ruined a great game. they need to stick with making TV's, Computers and PS3's stay out of the MMORPG business because as faulty as cryptic is right now. I would rather be playing Star Trek Online with all the bugs, loss of detail in ships and missions then pay 14.99 to SOE and get some half-as* game that never should have been touched in the first place all because SOE thought hey lets listen to the 10 years old instead of just leaving the game alone.
By no means am I angry with you. But my point is that there is now player generated content because again as i said SOE has given up with SWG.