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Lack of Roles...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
It has been stated that there is no "Holy Trinity" in STO and that is true, but is it wise? :rolleyes:

The few MMO's that did not have player roles have not faired well, in fact I cannot really think of one that a adult would play.

Freefealms by Sony Online Entertainment comes to mind, as it is mindless grinding with no requriement for mutual assistance.

I feel that this game will suffer due to lack of proper roles, since everyone can do nothing and nobody can do anything it really meanst hat everyone is noone... Which sounds ludicrus but is the best way to describie it.

Dedicated Tanking does not exist in this game, there is no real aggro management.

Dedicated Healing does not exist, there is not even a class that can perform healing well since it is based upon BO's.

Dedicated DPS is very very viable and what the game seems to be designed around.

The lack of a "death penalty" makes the game seem more arcadish than MMOish; again I bring up Freerealms which has no real "Death Penalty" either.

The big difference is Freerealms is designed for Children under the age of 10, while STO appears to be designed for people with the mental capacity of someone under the age of 10....

There is really no challenge to this game, in the end I feel that this will be the most viable reason if the game fails. In other MMO's you group togather to overcome a issue; in STO you just keep attacking (and dying) until you win. For a thinking adult this concept is degrading.

It is probably too late to fix many of the problems with roles in the game since it was designed to have none dispite what the manual says; I do hope that something can be done to encourage mutual support and make the game more challenging.

No, I am not quitting, I am enjoying myself but I have relegated this game to a "beer and pretzsel" solo category for when I just want to blow off steam. For my serious gaming, I have to choose a new option. :(
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tl;dr


    10char
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    MAK0 wrote: »
    Dedicated Tanking does not exist in this game, there is no real aggro management.

    Cruisers can take more damage and can go into an enemy group first. Once enemy ships are turning and not putting all of their forward arcs at a target at the same time, it's safer for other ships to move in. It's not sustained tanking but survivability can make a preliminary difference.
    Dedicated Healing does not exist, there is not even a class that can perform healing well since it is based upon BO's.

    And different ships roles have more console positions for the officers that provide these abilities; namely engineering and science.
    Dedicated DPS is very very viable and what the game seems to be designed around.

    Most every class of every other MMO I've seen has a "DPS build", too.
    The lack of a "death penalty" makes the game seem more arcadish than MMOish; again I bring up Freerealms which has no real "Death Penalty" either.

    The big difference is Freerealms is designed for Children under the age of 10, while STO appears to be designed for people with the mental capacity of someone under the age of 10....

    WoW doesn't have a notable death penalty, either. Especially in battlegrounds.
    There is really no challenge to this game, in the end I feel that this will be the most viable reason if the game fails. In other MMO's you group togather to overcome a issue; in STO you just keep attacking (and dying) until you win. For a thinking adult this concept is degrading.

    Then... try... not to die? I don't need a game mechanic to feel my pride take a hit. You can also impose upon yourself any penalty you want. You can toss out your best piece of equipment. Donate 10k credits to a worthy cause every time you explode. Start the mission over if you're incapacitated....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    You are totally failing to comprehend what I stated.

    You can remove "YOU" from your dialog as I am talking about grouping, mutual assistance and dedicated roles in a universal sense.

    While I could do all the thing you mentioned it does nothing to improve the game, entice people to take up roles and help forge organiztion where teamwork is paramount.

    As it is now, the Federation (and to a lesser extent the Klinlgons) are not a organized military, so much as a group of space scouts with ships. The game has no structure that embraces teamwork, in fact every facet of the game is individual glory which is fine for the Klingons but not really viable for the Federation whose very essense depends on mutual support.

    Even a Death Penalty like that of the Battlegrounds in WoW would be better than what we have; it would be more reminicient of reinforcemetns arriving rather than a haphazard staggered arrival of individual ships.

    Even though Cruiser can take more damage who would attack them until last? But then since the battles really never end is it even viable to have a tank or healer for that matter.

    The lack of roles and challenge are going to drive many thinking adults from the game; it is as I stated a glorified arcade game and it will probably be a game people will log into for a hour to blow up some Klingons before joining thier real MMO to do raiding and socializing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Support the OP's thoughts 100%
    tl;dr


    10char

    Sorry offtopic, any forum mods about? Are we going to let this go, this is alright is it? Look at this clearly mentally deficient persons post history if you want to dispair at the lack of moderation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The game has roles they just arent so simplistic that one person spams heals one person spams taunts and one person spams dps button.

    its a lot like CoX, look at how defenders/controllers were in that game. Only one way to spec them was really a 'healer' and it was not the most powerful form of support through its heals. Most of the specs dealth with aoe debuffing/buffing and generally making things 'better for us, worse for them'. Thats a lot like how science ships work in this game.

    Cruisers are able to take more damage than anyone else due to their engineering slots. They are the pullers, they eat the alpha. They also do enough damage in combination to the escort and science debuffs to contribute a good bit of damage. Since everyone has some shields, and shield regen, and some defensive capability, its inefficient NOT to distribute agro out, each according to what they can handle, during a fight.

    you are looking at individual players or ships but what you should be doing is looking at individual BOs, BOs have roles, depending on how you spec them. Ships are just vessels for the BOs, even 'dps ships' with their special weapons.. cannons are only a means to use the rapid fire bo ability, if you look at the numbers its that ability, not the weapon itself, that outclasses beams as far as damage output.

    In this game everyone synergyzes with everyone else, thats how cryptic seems to design games. It works well as long as you realize your job is to make yourself better, and the game and abilities automatically support your team as long as you are playing your own strengths properly for your own advantage.

    Yes that means you have to be fluid and constantly adjusting what you are doing to fit the situation. Thats a lot better than just having fixed roles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Gunfugue wrote:
    The game has roles they just arent so simplistic that one person spams heals one person spams taunts and one person spams dps button.

    its a lot like CoX, look at how defenders/controllers were in that game. Only one way to spec them was really a 'healer' and it was not the most powerful form of support through its heals. Most of the specs dealth with aoe debuffing/buffing and generally making things 'better for us, worse for them'. Thats a lot like how science ships work in this game.

    Cruisers are able to take more damage than anyone else due to their engineering slots. They are the pullers, they eat the alpha. They also do enough damage in combination to the escort and science debuffs to contribute a good bit of damage. Since everyone has some shields, and shield regen, and some defensive capability, its inefficient NOT to distribute agro out, each according to what they can handle, during a fight.

    you are looking at individual players or ships but what you should be doing is looking at individual BOs, BOs have roles, depending on how you spec them. Ships are just vessels for the BOs, even 'dps ships' with their special weapons.. cannons are only a means to use the rapid fire bo ability, if you look at the numbers its that ability, not the weapon itself, that outclasses beams as far as damage output.

    In this game everyone synergyzes with everyone else, thats how cryptic seems to design games. It works well as long as you realize your job is to make yourself better, and the game and abilities automatically support your team as long as you are playing your own strengths properly for your own advantage.

    Yes that means you have to be fluid and constantly adjusting what you are doing to fit the situation. Thats a lot better than just having fixed roles.

    I guess the lack of death penalty and real incentive for mutual support (not talking the auto team feature) fits well wtih the individualstic concept of "I should do what is best for me..." since there really is no teamwork except to DPS. But this goes hand in hand with how easily opponents die, making debuffing effectively uselss in PVE; and not much more useful in PVP.

    Oh well.. Beer and Pretzels (or in my case Dew and Hotwings)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The setup is like cox or champs. You do have roles but you go about them in different ways it’s not as simplistic as I heal you stab and he’s a TRIBBLE. I still think cox had the best support classes I’ve seen in an mmo. Trollers corrs were just stupid fun to play. I’m playing a tactical officer on a science ship so I do damage mostly but that doesn’t stop me from being the guy that swoops in to fix your shields and debuff the mob that everybody is pounding on then quickly scramble the targeting of that new blob of 6 ships that was pulled early before they completely take apart the guy flying the escort.

    The point to the system in place is that you play the way you want if you want to be support dps or a TRIBBLE you take powers that let you do that on your terms not somebody else. I’ve not tried it yet to any great extent but I’m sure I could just about do the same thing on any of the ships I choose to fly if I take the right bo powers. Sure some might better at it but it’s my option of what to play which really is the way it should be.

    As for death penalty it wouldn’t make any difference. Cox had xp loss on death played that for a good amount of time I wound up with whole levels worth of xp dept at times did it change my play style hell no I was having fun. If you want to play with folk that have dedicate specs and roles then you best bet is to find that group thier out there like in every mmo also be prepared to learn how to best setup your toon it’s not going to be as easy as I want to be mr.staby staby so I’ll just keep putting point in the box that says staby staby.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Not to mention what my friends and I did back when combat was hard, which was aggro trading, instead of just the engineer trying to keep aggro we had to manage it so that the stongest person was the one getting hit, then when his shields weakened we drew fire off of him and maybe buffed his shields a bit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I like to heal... :p I don't do that much here; instead I don't know what I am supposed to do.

    The manual says that the Science Officer is a healer; but we get nothing that really helps us heal much.

    And even worse most people would prefer to die and regen instantly in 10 seconds than live and regen over 3 minutes... :(

    I guess I will never see LFG in this game since grouping is random and there is no reason to group as most of the enemies are fairly easy to kill, and even if you do die; you are back in the fight at full health while the enemy is still damaged so eventually you will win... :rolleyes:

    I guess we will never see any 40 person raids in STO either. :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    It is a very real issue that the game was designed to encourage 3 specific roles (Tank, DPS, Buff/DeBuff) but none of those roles are actually being used much except for various DPS options. Right now there is no reason to build up a Cruiser, or a Science ship… Even people that do are focusing on DPS more than the actual role of these ships.

    Since there is no DP in the game right now, there is no reason not to just fly in and fire blindly until you blow up… then wash, rinse, repeat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    mjcrawford wrote: »
    It is a very real issue that the game was designed to encourage 3 specific roles (Tank, DPS, Buff/DeBuff) but none of those roles are actually being used much except for various DPS options. Right now there is no reason to build up a Cruiser, or a Science ship… Even people that do are focusing on DPS more than the actual role of these ships.

    Since there is no DP in the game right now, there is no reason not to just fly in and fire blindly until you blow up… then wash, rinse, repeat.

    life is going to be a pain for the people who do that when they add a real DP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    No aggro management? Draw Fire skill.

    No healing? Medical Tricorder.

    Yes, these are Bridge Officer skills. They're also player skills, when you equip the right kit.

    In Space, Aggro Management is easy. If you're the first ship in, they all go after you. I'ts as simple as that.

    In Space, Healing is easy, too. Science Team and Engineering Team are targetable abilities, meaning you can target your teammate and heal them with them, too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    life is going to be a pain for the people who do that when they add a real DP.

    I haven't seen anyone do that anyway. Even without a DP, it makes the game harder for your group. If you're playing solo, you're zerging, DP or not.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Anyone notice that some of the complain threads for STO are among the dumbest ever? Listen to this guy rant about a death penalty like this is anything new to the genre....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think your real problem Mako isn't the game, but the people playing it. You (others) can say all you want that there is a personal desire and/or pride in not dying, but others around you are selfish and/or totally solo. If we could group together a fleet of people who ENJOY striving for the perfect strategic attack with coordinated roles (I love playing with direction and focus in a group) we would need nothing but that. Unfortunately, human nature is not always that way and you see the worst in teamwork in games because "it's just a game" mentality. Ideally, there would be no need for a death penalty, and we could all take pride and feel shame at defeats great and small when they occur, but this most likely is a pipe dream. The penalty will be added at some point almost invariably and then you WILL see dedicated roles as well as teamwork and necessary grouping. Unfortunately, this will lead to the second problem, which is that if you ALWAYS need a group to be successful you become dependent on not only others to be playing, but COMPETENT other to be playing, and they as has been previously mentioned are hard to find :D Personally, I would like to see the death penalty restricted to something non ridiculous, but aggravating. For multi need missions, perhaps you would be kicked from the instance and have to start over, either by playing again with your same group who altruistically help you achieve the goal they already succeeded in, (or perhaps failed at with you), or another group that hasn't done the mission yet. This would also lead to people gaining REAL experience at said missions and mentoring new players into good strategy formulations and teamwork. Just my opinions though. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Anyone notice that some of the complain threads for STO are among the dumbest ever? Listen to this guy rant about a death penalty like this is anything new to the genre....

    Yeah, I have noticed that in threads in which people make real suggestions on how to improve STO we seam to get a LOT of really dumb answers from people who hate DP's or intelligent gameing because they are 35 years old and are afraid of a challenge.

    Boo frickin Hoo.

    I truly hope that STO does not become a ghost town, but if the DEV's continue to listen to the carebear crowed I am afraid it will be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    mjcrawford wrote: »
    Yeah, I have noticed that in threads in which people make real suggestions on how to improve STO we seam to get a LOT of really dumb answers from people who hate DP's or intelligent gameing because they are 35 years old and are afraid of a challenge.

    Boo frickin Hoo.

    I truly hope that STO does not become a ghost town, but if the DEV's continue to listen to the carebear crowed I am afraid it will be.

    I was just pointing out that this is nothing new. Please project your insecurities elsewhere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I haven't seen anyone do that anyway. Even without a DP, it makes the game harder for your group. If you're playing solo, you're zerging, DP or not.

    Haven't seen anyone do what exactly? DPSers habitually fly into fleet actions that award rewards SOLELY on damage output. They hover on the edge while a cruiser starts to take fire then swoop in to out damage the cruiser. Doesn't concern me, and sometimes they fail at it and spend too much time waiting for a respawn
    to effectively out damage, but if there is a way to gain an advantage somehow, people will not only try it, but camp all day doing it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    MAK0 wrote: »
    It has been stated that there is no "Holy Trinity" in STO and that is true, but is it wise? :rolleyes:

    The few MMO's that did not have player roles have not faired well, in fact I cannot really think of one that a adult would play.

    Freefealms by Sony Online Entertainment comes to mind, as it is mindless grinding with no requriement for mutual assistance.

    I feel that this game will suffer due to lack of proper roles, since everyone can do nothing and nobody can do anything it really meanst hat everyone is noone... Which sounds ludicrus but is the best way to describie it.

    Dedicated Tanking does not exist in this game, there is no real aggro management.

    Agreed. The best tank ship is the science vessel with an engineering captain. Three is no aggro skill in space combat - so dps always ends up tanking. The complete failure of role specializations was and is a major detriment for this game.

    Dedicated Healing does not exist, there is not even a class that can perform healing well since it is based upon BO's.

    You can have a dedicated healer via science captain/science ship. That said, the value one brings is trivial. Lets not forget that Cryptic doesn't reward healing at all. I'd say you're right.

    Dedicated DPS is very very viable and what the game seems to be designed around.

    The lack of a "death penalty" makes the game seem more arcadish than MMOish; again I bring up Freerealms which has no real "Death Penalty" either.

    Agreed. No death penalty is the single biggest joke in calling this an MMO. Even in WoW the death penalty is really that you must try the boss fight again from the beginning. Here the fight doesn't reset so you can zerg. Lol at stupid game design.

    The big difference is Freerealms is designed for Children under the age of 10, while STO appears to be designed for people with the mental capacity of someone under the age of 10....

    There is really no challenge to this game, in the end I feel that this will be the most viable reason if the game fails. In other MMO's you group togather to overcome a issue; in STO you just keep attacking (and dying) until you win. For a thinking adult this concept is degrading.

    It is probably too late to fix many of the problems with roles in the game since it was designed to have none dispite what the manual says; I do hope that something can be done to encourage mutual support and make the game more challenging.

    They could fix it if they made healing more powerful, added more damage for their 'raidisode' content, added space aggro skills, and started rewarding people for healing/tanking

    No, I am not quitting, I am enjoying myself but I have relegated this game to a "beer and pretzsel" solo category for when I just want to blow off steam. For my serious gaming, I have to choose a new option. :(

    /10characters
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    MAK0 wrote: »
    It has been stated that there is no "Holy Trinity" in STO and that is true, but is it wise? :rolleyes:

    The few MMO's that did not have player roles have not faired well, in fact I cannot really think of one that a adult would play.

    Freefealms by Sony Online Entertainment comes to mind, as it is mindless grinding with no requriement for mutual assistance.

    I feel that this game will suffer due to lack of proper roles, since everyone can do nothing and nobody can do anything it really meanst hat everyone is noone... Which sounds ludicrus but is the best way to describie it.

    Dedicated Tanking does not exist in this game, there is no real aggro management.

    Agreed. The best tank ship is the science vessel with an engineering captain. Three is no aggro skill in space combat - so dps always ends up tanking. The complete failure of role specializations was and is a major detriment for this game.

    Dedicated Healing does not exist, there is not even a class that can perform healing well since it is based upon BO's.

    You can have a dedicated healer via science captain/science ship. That said, the value one brings is trivial. Lets not forget that Cryptic doesn't reward healing at all. I'd say you're right.

    Dedicated DPS is very very viable and what the game seems to be designed around.

    The lack of a "death penalty" makes the game seem more arcadish than MMOish; again I bring up Freerealms which has no real "Death Penalty" either.

    Agreed. No death penalty is the single biggest joke in calling this an MMO. Even in WoW the death penalty is really that you must try the boss fight again from the beginning. Here the fight doesn't reset so you can zerg. Lol at stupid game design.

    The big difference is Freerealms is designed for Children under the age of 10, while STO appears to be designed for people with the mental capacity of someone under the age of 10....

    There is really no challenge to this game, in the end I feel that this will be the most viable reason if the game fails. In other MMO's you group togather to overcome a issue; in STO you just keep attacking (and dying) until you win. For a thinking adult this concept is degrading.

    It is probably too late to fix many of the problems with roles in the game since it was designed to have none dispite what the manual says; I do hope that something can be done to encourage mutual support and make the game more challenging.

    They could fix it if they made healing more powerful, added more damage for their 'raidisode' content, added space aggro skills, and started rewarding people for healing/tanking

    No, I am not quitting, I am enjoying myself but I have relegated this game to a "beer and pretzsel" solo category for when I just want to blow off steam. For my serious gaming, I have to choose a new option. :(

    /10characters
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I find it quite interesting that people buy this game which is designed NOT to have a Trinity gameplay and then complain about it. While there is nothing wrong with liking the Trinity, there are at least as many players who don't like it. This game seems to be made for the latter group. And I can't see why this is a bad thing.

    Look, I bought this game because of its flexibility in roles, since it's a nice change from hitting the same three buttons all the time (I played healers in Trinity games long enough to be a bit tired of role-locked gameplay). I would be mightily offended if they completely changed this core feature of STO after the fact now. If I had wanted Trinity gameplay and stupid three hour tank-nuke-heal bossfights I would have bought WoW...

    Baseline is - while I respect your opinion, I would very much like STO to stay as it is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I haven't been having this problem. The fleet I belong to has cruisers, escorts and science ships. Just last night I was mishing with a science ship and it was awesome to have around. It not only healed the rest of us it could interfere with the enemy: shutting down their shields or weapons or even their engines.
    If you are experiencing a lack of variety I would say that is the fault of the players for not trying the various and sundry options that exist within this game. A well coordinated attack by a balanced fleet reduces the enemy to vapor with incredible speed. I love it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I was just pointing out that this is nothing new. Please project your insecurities elsewhere.

    Oh, I'm sorry, did I say 35 years old? I meant 12.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Many people can see the same thing different ways, and things that are the same can be different for different people, and the concepts, many of them but not all, fit within views that match many of the same views. There are many exceptions, my arguement is when the worst is highlighted not the best, knowing all has some good and bad, any community made worse does not serve that which is better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ok. Here is the base problem. All content in this game is soloable. All of it. You could solo any ship with less than an infinite hull stat simply because you can keep zerging it. The only incentive to group is to do things faster (but since things scale with group size this is not the case) or b/c you like doing things with people.

    There is no need to bring a 'healer' or a 'tank' along to anything because you are capable of adequately filling those roles at the same time, along with doing dps. There is no incentive to work together. In fact, since things scale with group size, there is a disincentive to work together.

    I'm hoping their raidisodes offer more challenge. We shall see when I get there sometime tomorrow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ok. Here is the base problem. All content in this game is soloable. All of it. You could solo any ship with less than an infinite hull stat simply because you can keep zerging it. The only incentive to group is to do things faster (but since things scale with group size this is not the case) or b/c you like doing things with people.

    There is no need to bring a 'healer' or a 'tank' along to anything because you are capable of adequately filling those roles at the same time, along with doing dps. There is no incentive to work together. In fact, since things scale with group size, there is a disincentive to work together.

    I'm hoping their raidisodes offer more challenge. We shall see when I get there sometime tomorrow.

    Translate: There is no enforced grouping in STO.

    Fun thing is - I like it this way. And still I love to play in groups and do so pretty much all the time, even if the game doesn't strictly force me to. Again, it's one of the things I love about STO: Choices. People can play alone if they like, or group up if they like, whenever they please. You can even chose how do to your grouping, as in either random groups that just blow up stuff or organized groups with voice com. Everything works. I don't know why MMO would need to have the "one good way to do things". Again, there are plenty of games that do that, but STO isn't it.
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