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Inertia in space.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Seems to me that most space games always leave out some basic space physics, mainly inertia.

If i am full throttle and cut my engines without a "full stop" command (meaning reverse thrusters to halt my inertia) then i should be able to swing my ship around facing reverse while moving forward and fire weapons.

please look into a possible "cut engines and pivot" mechanic, even if its an advanced evasive maneuvers.

i should really be able to whip my ship sideways and sail on inertia, there is no wind resistance after all.


That is all..

~Div
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    Seems to me that most space games always leave out some basic space physics, mainly inertia.

    If i am full throttle and cut my engines without a "full stop" command (meaning reverse thrusters to halt my inertia) then i should be able to swing my ship around facing reverse while moving forward and fire weapons.

    please look into a possible "cut engines and pivot" mechanic, even if its an advanced evasive maneuvers.

    i should really be able to whip my ship sideways and sail on inertia, there is no wind resistance after all.


    That is all..

    ~Div

    Geek answer for ya, It's due to your warp field created by your nacels. Completely different type of engines than any other space games. The warp field actually folds space ahead of you.. or was it behind you, kind of like riding a wake. Was watching it on the science channel one day, actually interesting way of explaining warp fields in Star trek, interesting part of it all was that they said it was very possible to do, just would take more energy than we can currently create to do.

    Im a product of random channel surfing :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    That would actually be clever, but very very hard to manage. If you had to actually use your thrusters properly we'd all be moving around like greased monkeys on ice!

    But in the name of realism, let's remove the in-space sounds, make planets a realistic size and... oh I dunno, stop faster than light travel? :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Two words

    Inertial Dampeners

    Used in many a Star trek episode
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Avyre wrote:
    Geek answer for ya, It's due to your warp field created by your nacels. Completely different type of engines than any other space games. The warp field actually folds space ahead of you.. or was it behind you, kind of like riding a wake. Was watching it on the science channel one day, actually interesting way of explaining warp fields in Star trek, interesting part of it all was that they said it was very possible to do, just would take more energy than we can currently create to do.

    Im a product of random channel surfing :D

    Thats not a bad answer but warp nacless do nothing out of warp speed, so during combat, there is no warp field around you, and inertia would apply.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    Seems to me that most space games always leave out some basic space physics, mainly inertia.

    If i am full throttle and cut my engines without a "full stop" command (meaning reverse thrusters to halt my inertia) then i should be able to swing my ship around facing reverse while moving forward and fire weapons.

    please look into a possible "cut engines and pivot" mechanic, even if its an advanced evasive maneuvers.

    i should really be able to whip my ship sideways and sail on inertia, there is no wind resistance after all.


    That is all..

    ~Div

    Hehe, sounds like a little battlestar galactica...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Padain wrote:
    That would actually be clever, but very very hard to manage. If you had to actually use your thrusters properly we'd all be moving around like greased monkeys on ice!

    But in the name of realism, let's remove the in-space sounds, make planets a realistic size and... oh I dunno, stop faster than light travel? :D

    No one actually travels faster than light, like the other guy said, space is folded. Its impossible to break the lightspeed barrier even in Trek, as you would need an infinite ammount of fuel to reach such a speed, which means you would need infinite mass to carry such fuel, ,meaning you would have to be the size of the universe itself, to reach such speeds :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    No.. This is not newtonian space.. It is Star Trek space.. When a ship cuts engines, it stops .. there are no 'starfury' manuevers. ships manuever like boats in water, or planes

    It has always been portrayed that way in the shows and that's why it is this way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thats not a bad answer but warp nacless do nothing out of warp speed, so during combat, there is no warp field around you, and inertia would apply.

    this is incorrect. Warp fields help deal with the mass of a ship and allow the impulse drive to work more efficiently. They did it to DS9 to move the station faster in the first episode and it does not have warp drive at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Stormnut wrote: »
    this is incorrect. Warp fields help deal with the mass of a ship and allow the impulse drive to work more efficiently. They did it to DS9 to move the station faster in the first episode and it does not have warp drive at all.

    From Trek manual:

    "There's no reason to think that a Newtonian drive (Impulse) would
    augment a non-Newtonian drive (warp). Also, consider that the maximum
    velocity attainable with a Newtonian drive is c. At Warp 2, which is
    ~= 10c, this gives you a whole 11c at maximum (overloading, fuel
    wasting) impulse."

    I dont beleive warp field is employed very often, DS9 was an exception.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    toddd240 wrote: »
    Two words

    Inertial Dampeners

    Used in many a Star trek episode

    in a ships interior, but not the ship itself.

    an object in motion remains in motion, until acted upon by an outside force. what the OP proposes would only work when running on Ion Magnetic pulse drive, tho i suspect the very nature of IMpulse engines may negate the effect of inertia, and not necessarily a specifically desinged dampener.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thats not a bad answer but warp nacless do nothing out of warp speed, so during combat, there is no warp field around you, and inertia would apply.

    Actually they do :D Just depends on how much juice applied and how you manipulate the field. See it sort of like a magnetic field, the strong the magnetic field the harder it pushes or pulls. I wish I would have written down the name of the show and all that.. was that Asian Einstein lookin like guy on the Science Channel. usually talking about astrophysics.
    Inertia Dampners just keeps you from feeling the effects of gravity or physics such as sudden acceleration or a sudden stop..
    Anyways, that's how I saw it explained lol, factual or Science Fiction, you decide. But if you really look att the design of the ships (for the most part) theyre structurally designed with those specifications. otherwise the ship would tear itself apart..
    Ok.. ya guys are bringing my true geek out... lol :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Avyre wrote:
    Actually they do :D Just depends on how much juice applied and how you manipulate the field. See it sort of like a magnetic field, the strong the magnetic field the harder it pushes or pulls. I wish I would have written down the name of the show and all that.. was that Asian Einstein lookin like guy on the Science Channel. usually talking about astrophysics.
    Inertia Dampners just keeps you from feeling the effects of gravity or physics such as sudden acceleration or a sudden stop..
    Anyways, that's how I saw it explained lol, factual or Science Fiction, you decide. But if you really look att the design of the ships (for the most part) theyre structurally designed with those specifications. otherwise the ship would tear itself apart..
    Ok.. ya guys are bringing my true geek out... lol :p

    Hmm perhaps you two are right then :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Krenn wrote: »
    in a ships interior, but not the ship itself.

    an object in motion remains in motion, until acted upon by an outside force. what the OP proposes would only work when running on Ion Magnetic pulse drive, tho i suspect the very nature of IMpulse engines may negate the effect of inertia, and not necessarily a specifically desinged dampener.

    the new movie said that a starship can't go to warp without it's external inertial dampeners offline

    Stretch reality just a tad
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thank you for some very interesting answers. some that make some sense as well, so how about making that a usable feature for combat?

    pop an ability that allows inertia to continue when engines cut for 30 seconds with a swing about target fire type of maneuver in mind?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    Thank you for some very interesting answers. some that make some sense as well, so how about making that a usable feature for combat?

    pop an ability that allows inertia to continue when engines cut for 30 seconds with a swing about target fire type of maneuver in mind?

    Since it wasn't a staple in Star trek I don't think they would include it. Also you'd wind up with Star Trek on Ice instead of STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thats not a bad answer but warp nacless do nothing out of warp speed, so during combat, there is no warp field around you, and inertia would apply.

    The reverse thrusters are automatic. That's why you come to a full stop when you cut your engines.

    And since a few people seem to be having issues, it is spelled nacelle.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    You guys can argue physics and technology all you want, the real question is if you can do such a thing with the game engine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Avyre wrote:
    Inertia Dampners just keeps you from feeling the effects of gravity or physics such as sudden acceleration or a sudden stop..

    lol can you imagine everyone hitting the back wall when they warp?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    toddd240 wrote: »
    the new movie said that a starship can't go to warp without it's external inertial dampeners offline

    Stretch reality just a tad

    ofcourse you'll need inertial dampeners within the confines of a ship. they just won't have any effect on the motion of the ship. if they went FTL w/out dampeners, they'ld be red smears on the bulkheads:D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    SpaceFork wrote:
    You guys can argue physics and technology all you want, the real question is if you can do such a thing with the game engine.

    there was a game i used to play called freelancer that if you stopped the engines you would come to a full stop, but if you "cut" the engines you would continue for ever at that speed but could use the steering engines to pivot around whilst continuing your course. this is why i asked about it.

    i do not think it would be good to have it all the time, indeed star trek on ice, but as a usable tool.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    SpaceFork wrote:
    You guys can argue physics and technology all you want, the real question is if you can do such a thing with the game engine.

    Of course you can.. They did it in Star Control II, and more recently in 'The Babylon Project' freespace mod.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    lol can you imagine everyone hitting the back wall when they warp?

    No i cant, because warp does not work that way, it is not propulsion it is bending space around you, hence "warping" it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    if you check the ships spec's in game you'll see most of them have a rating for "inertia"

    when in game next, hit full impulse and build up some speed then cut the throttle (like back to nothing) and turn the ship.

    it'll drift

    not to the degree you're thinking off, but it does happen.

    the thing is, we're fighting in HUGE ships here, to have them manuvour like fighters or smaller ships would require a massive amount of thrust in each direction. the impulse engines only point out the back..

    there's some interesting stuff you can find online regarding how a ship traveling at high impulse speeds could actually stop with nothing to push forward with.. there's some theories regarding the use of subspace fields (like they used in DS9 to move it to the wormhole, the deflecter grid created such a field to lower its inertial mass) to raise and lower relative mass to allow for high impulse and stopping and such. quite interesting if you're into that sort of thing.

    but yeah, to be able to spin a ship so its facing backwards while moving forwards on inertia doesnt work with starships in trek canon, and using the physics they do in game helps retain a more "in universe" feel.

    (another good way to see this inertia drift in action is to pop an engine battery and immediately hit evasive manuvours.. not tried that since the latest patch so the effect may be different now but its like 2-3 seconds of full impulse and you can really get a sense of drift if you turn as the boost to speed drops!)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Krenn wrote: »
    ofcourse you'll need inertial dampeners within the confines of a ship. they just won't have any effect on the motion of the ship. if they went FTL w/out dampeners, they'ld be red smears on the bulkheads:D

    I think the point was that they were external not internal.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    there was a game i used to play called freelancer that if you stopped the engines you would come to a full stop, but if you "cut" the engines you would continue for ever at that speed but could use the steering engines to pivot around whilst continuing your course. this is why i asked about it.

    i do not think it would be good to have it all the time, indeed star trek on ice, but as a usable tool.

    Perhaps i should have used the word "This" instead of "The" My question is if you can do it in this game's engine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Divitiacus wrote:
    Seems to me that most space games always leave out some basic space physics, mainly inertia.

    If i am full throttle and cut my engines without a "full stop" command (meaning reverse thrusters to halt my inertia) then i should be able to swing my ship around facing reverse while moving forward and fire weapons.

    please look into a possible "cut engines and pivot" mechanic, even if its an advanced evasive maneuvers.

    i should really be able to whip my ship sideways and sail on inertia, there is no wind resistance after all.


    That is all..

    ~Div

    Actually you can do this. I do it all the time. I crank my Emergency Power to Engines and combine it with Evasive Manuevers. Once I'm in range of the enemy I let off a Tyken's Rift and a few mines. Once I pass the enemy, I turn off the impulse engines completely, and as I glide away I swing around and get off a volleyt of beam array shots as well as torps.

    The cut your engines and pivot while sliding through space method you said doesn't exist, does exist. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    LOL Even though i am really enjoying the conversation, We're mixing Science fact with Science Fiction. Have a easier answer for everyone,

    In Star Trek, that's how it works :p

    But loving everyones opinions!!! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Avyre wrote:
    LOL Even though i am really enjoying the conversation, We're mixing Science fact with Science Fiction. Have a easier answer for everyone,

    In Star Trek, that's how it works :p

    But loving everyones opinions!!! :D

    Actually alot of Trek science has proven to by 'real'. Warp theory actually is something that could work.

    Many leading scientists of today, got thier ideas from Trek :)

    Edit: transportation has also already been achieved to a small degree, and cloaking tech isnt far off :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Avyre wrote:
    Geek answer for ya, It's due to your warp field created by your nacels. Completely different type of engines than any other space games. The warp field actually folds space ahead of you.. or was it behind you, kind of like riding a wake. Was watching it on the science channel one day, actually interesting way of explaining warp fields in Star trek, interesting part of it all was that they said it was very possible to do, just would take more energy than we can currently create to do.

    Im a product of random channel surfing :D

    I am not sure how they have attempted to explain it within the context of ST (I’m not that big of a fan), however I can explain the theoretical equivalent.

    Space in front of the vessel would be compressed then expanded again behind the vessel. In this way the ship travels at a significantly lower 'real' velocity and doesn't violate the universal speed limit. It is still problematic however, as you would need to have faster than light communications capability (the wave front still needs to traverse the length of the vessel at the 'apparent' velocity rather than the 'real' velocity).

    As for the OP, you really don't want to go there...lol

    The problem with accepting things like inertia and momentum is that they work both ways. I highly doubt we want to start seeing portions of our ships flying off into space every time we attempt to turn, or worse...accelerate. Given the masses involved, and the velocities, there would be a lot of space debris (not to mention very messy ship interiors as we scrape the remains of the crew off the bulkheads) in short order.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Actually alot of Trek science has proven to by 'real'. Warp theory actually is something that could work.

    Many leading scientists of today, got thier ideas from Trek :)

    Edit: transportation has also already been achieved to a small degree, and cloaking tech isnt far off :)

    Yeah, I know, just was trying to save someone from going off into spittle spitting nerd rage in the future. lol But love the topic.
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