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Signs and Portents...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Been seeing an overwhelming number of negative posts on these forums the past week; many of them not well developed and a large amount filled with vexing rage to say the least. In response to them the "defenders of faith" have stepped up and decided to employ a high degree of vigilantism.

Of course this only adds fuel to the fire. It seems a lot of people have lost perspective and yet others have none - at all. It may be so because there are a couple distinct communities interacting here and I'm really sure a large majority of people are cognitively aware of it.

This dynamic plus a massive lack of concrete information regarding scope, purpose and function on the part of Cryptic about most things is leaving a lot of the player base feeling disheartened, disempowered, and alienated. Left to its own devices in this current state, I expect this community to implode soon and in the we will all lose - of that I have no illusions.

People need to gain some perspective and understanding of the environment and dynamics in play. I think this community can succeed and become a great thing if it gives itself half a chance and of course gets proper support and nurturing from Cryptic.

With that said, I recently read a two part editorial on legendary failures on the MMO world scribed by Scott Jennings. He is a well established developer and avid MMO player. Consequently I figured with all the talk of "failure" being toss around here and mention of other title launches, franchise wipes and other similar things the read would add some perspective for all concerned parties and maybe generate a little understanding of things for everyone given the inherent diverse group dynamic.

If anyone is interested the editorial comes in two parts. You can read them at the following links:

Legendary Failures - Part One
Legendary Failures - Part Two

Additionally, Jack also published another editorial on why he will play Star Trek. I suggest reading it after you have read the other editorial. I think in totality it brings things full circle. You can read them at the following links:

Why I'll Play Star Trek Online

I assume he is an active member of this community, so maybe he might chime in here and express his opinion on the state-of-the-STO-community; speaking collectively as a member of all the community elements present.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    i read that editorial on mmorpg a little while ago ... and just on a sidenote ... i played most of the games he mentions ... ofc, the failure of SWG was epic but saying "others screwed up aswell" doesnt make this a better game.

    as far as MMOs go STO is in a ... desolate state... theres just too much missing.

    a couple of points

    ) there is no persistent open world to speak of ... its instance here, instance there, instance everywhere
    ofc, only having one server requires that but for example ... why not make one huge sector map that covers the entire available area instead of these smaller zones and have multiple instances of that ... at least you would get a feel for distances ...the constant loading screens are an immersion killer

    ) missions, for the most part dull and generic ... kill ship in space > beam down > kill mobs on ground > beam up > kill more ships in space > end mission

    ) starbases should have been bigger ... you approach this HUGE structure and are limited to a small zone inside ... yeah ... immersion, whats that again ?

    ) there is a serious lack of major hubs ... with every other MMO you have to return to your questgiver to receive a reward. not in this game, hail starfleet collect reward. again, this is a problem for the social aspect

    ) a lack of socialising in the few group missions cause there really is no need to talk to the other guy ... just kill the mobs and get the hell out of there

    ) the chat is abysmal ... needs a major rework

    ) this one might be just personal taste but i feel that there is a lack of distinctive items ... stuff that at least "feels" special. all you get is slightly modified version of Disruptor/Plasma/whatever beams and so on ...

    ) pvp ... well, balance is a different topic here but with every other MMO different scenarios open up at different levels ... not here, you do the same Maps from 6-50

    ) in terms of the world in general i must say that it feels rather small ... this is for the most part caused by the excessive use of instancing ... why couldnt we get say an extended open planet zone for each tier ?
    SWG style if you want ...


    in conclusion id say this game would have made a halfway decent Single Player Game(maybe with multiplayer part added) but as an MMO it just lacks in too many aspects
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    "This also means that once the game launches, your players are your customers. Calling them customers is critically important. It implies that you are there to serve them, and not the other way around. You are not the god of your game world, you are a customer service professional, and if you want to keep those customers contributing to your paycheck, you had damned well better act like it." - Scott Jennings


    QFT.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Interesting read I wouldn't otherwise have encountered - thank you!

    I also read his article "Why I will play STO" and I feel his pain and his "joy". Like Scott, I too am doomed to play this game because, you know, it's Star Trek!

    :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thanks for the feedback guys. It is appreciated.

    I'll expand a little on what I was getting at previously, I think Jack's perspective touches on all the arguments that are hot button issues right now and he looks at them from both sides of the coin so to speak. I hope people can see that and it results in generation of some common ground.

    @Vain - You thunder stealer -you..... :eek:

    I was going to add that later after some feedback. I guess I'll add it now since you mentioned it. A quick read and study you are... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    good read. thanks for the link.

    ....omg....

    I just realized this wasnt a rage rant thread !



    ...the sky is falling.


    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    good read. thanks for the link.

    ....omg....

    I just realized this wasnt a rage rant thread !



    ...the sky is falling.


    .

    Thanks. Also for the record, I dont rant. I postulate! :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ocharni wrote: »

    a couple of points

    ) there is no persistent open world to speak of ... its instance here, instance there, instance everywhere
    ofc, only having one server requires that but for example ... why not make one huge sector map that covers the entire available area instead of these smaller zones and have multiple instances of that ... at least you would get a feel for distances ...the constant loading screens are an immersion killer

    ) missions, for the most part dull and generic ... kill ship in space > beam down > kill mobs on ground > beam up > kill more ships in space > end mission

    ) starbases should have been bigger ... you approach this HUGE structure and are limited to a small zone inside ... yeah ... immersion, whats that again ?

    ) there is a serious lack of major hubs ... with every other MMO you have to return to your questgiver to receive a reward. not in this game, hail starfleet collect reward. again, this is a problem for the social aspect

    ) a lack of socialising in the few group missions cause there really is no need to talk to the other guy ... just kill the mobs and get the hell out of there

    ) the chat is abysmal ... needs a major rework

    ) this one might be just personal taste but i feel that there is a lack of distinctive items ... stuff that at least "feels" special. all you get is slightly modified version of Disruptor/Plasma/whatever beams and so on ...

    ) pvp ... well, balance is a different topic here but with every other MMO different scenarios open up at different levels ... not here, you do the same Maps from 6-50

    ) in terms of the world in general i must say that it feels rather small ... this is for the most part caused by the excessive use of instancing ... why couldnt we get say an extended open planet zone for each tier ?
    SWG style if you want ...

    i'll give my thoughts on these points.

    instancing, its the biggest complaint of the game but its also the most critical function. STO has a fairly heavy graphical load, sure its not up to single player games but compared to most MMO's currently out there, its impressive graphically. there's also a massive degree of customisation possible. when you take into account the work an individual client computer has to run to render all this it adds up. instancing allows lower spec computers to handle this diverse and graphically heavy load much easier. if it only has to handle 100 potential players as opposed to thousands it'll run faster and smoother on a larger amount of systems. its allowed them to keep the min specs required down low so a larger playerbase can easily access the game, not just those who have the most powerful rigs. it also reduces the potential for lag (once the severs are stable, which they currently are not!) at the cost of being able to sit in one spot with a couple of hundred other players.

    missions, i think everyone agrees that more variety is needed here, including cryptic. its a personal choice as to if people can and want to stick around while thats sorted out.

    starbases, well, we're seeing in-game the areas we need to see. not the admin offices, not the personal quarters, not the areas needed for life support and power supply.. when you think back to the shows, rather than just the movies, we only ever saw small areas of them anyway. compared to the shows actually we're in a huge amount of area! the other aspect of this turns into gameplay and timesinks. if it took you 10 minutes to go from requisitions to the exchange in Sol people would get bored. form has to give some leeway to function here, and thats why they're not huge expansive areas filled with little but dressing.

    the not having to return to turn in quests has actually been enjoyed by quite a few people. the amount of time lost in most MMO's in having to run back to hand in isnt used here, and it allows you to operate away from the bases longer. again, this is from the shows. we didnt see Kirk popping back to earth to say "oh well i blew a gorn up with a cannon loaded with diamonds, can i haz stuff?" it went in his report and was sent back via subspace. all in all its an interesting mechanic that works with the source IP.

    I'll agree with the lack of communication in teaming, the game is too hands on for that. most people just want to blast through the mission and get the exp/reward/shiny thing. its a trend happening in MMO's all over however, STO isnt really that different in that respect.

    chat is awful, the multizone cross instance chat can be ok when there's only a few instances but when you're up to 10 or more its insane. sure its helpful in getting together teams for larger events but there should be a filter in place so you can have instance only /zone if you want. it needs work and i agree with you on that.

    items, well there's some pretty good stuff out there, the problem is they're limited by the IP. the weapons and such have to feel as though they fit into the source material and frankly what we have in game just barely scrapes in to that. there's countless posts about how fed ships shouldnt have anything but phasers, ground teams shouldnt have rifles etc.. considering the limitations placed on the game by the IP, we have a fair amount of choice. I'll admit its not much however. the majority of what makes the "good" items good are the additional aspects of them. extra damage, chance for DoT, engines that give a 5% boost to all power systems.. while they cant change the names and looks much they can and have altered the stats and abilities of these quite a bit.

    PvP needs some attention, thats something else i agree with you on.

    i'll also agree that we need larger social areas on core planets. Earth needs a beamdown point, and Vulcan, Andoria and Risa need expanding. the problem here comes back to the need for instancing to allow lower spec systems to handle the game with ease, there's ways they can work around that like having different areas in instances, and you "zone" between them or something to that effect. its something the players need to push for in mature and rational posts and discussions however, so the devs can find a way to make it happen with the limitations of the set up.


    well, those are my opinions on those points anyway. hopefully improvements can happen in the areas they need to and i for one am looking forward to watching the community help this game grow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Klystron wrote: »
    "This also means that once the game launches, your players are your customers. Calling them customers is critically important. It implies that you are there to serve them, and not the other way around. You are not the god of your game world, you are a customer service professional, and if you want to keep those customers contributing to your paycheck, you had damned well better act like it." - Scott Jennings


    QFT.

    This is the big thing that SOE, Lucas Arts, and mainly Julio Torres forgot about when they released the NGE to SWG. I, along with so many others, felt betrayed. If I had known that Julio Torres worked on "The Force Unleashed," I would have never bought it. This is the level of animosity I and many others feel. As this is a brand new game, I am willing to give it a chance, as should everyone. Things will develop and change quickly in the first year. Hopefully, Cryptic and CBS will pay attention to past disaster by developers and not repeat the same mistakes. Only time will tell.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Klystron wrote: »
    "This also means that once the game launches, your players are your customers. Calling them customers is critically important. It implies that you are there to serve them, and not the other way around. You are not the god of your game world, you are a customer service professional, and if you want to keep those customers contributing to your paycheck, you had damned well better act like it." - Scott Jennings


    QFT.

    Re-QFT.

    /10chars
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Regarding the "customer" comment, i also agree. That is why I never use the word "consumer" since this is not a "one-off" product. It seems many companies forget that little truth. Additionally, I think a lot of companies look at gamers as kids [looking at you in particular EA] or maybe irresponsible adults [looking at you here Ubi] none deserving of the same treatment that say an older real corporate or professional person would deserve. Sad really but I digress....

    On a side note, if anyone has an interest I suggest reading some of the comments to those articles. There are some seriously well done posts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Believe it or not, there is a simple answer as to why there are negative posts, and positive replies, and vice versa. It's not anything a socialogist would need to explain.

    Some people are just not happy with anything that doesn't fit their narrow set of standards of a MMORPG. If "this" is missing, the game is horrible. If "that" isn't how they think it should be, it's horrible.

    On the other hand, some people will love the game simply because it's in the genere they love. Nothing is bad, because they blindly love the concept.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Wrakkin wrote:
    Believe it or not, there is a simple answer as to why there are negative posts, and positive replies, and vice versa. It's not anything a socialogist would need to explain.

    Some people are just not happy with anything that doesn't fit their narrow set of standards of a MMORPG. If "this" is missing, the game is horrible. If "that" isn't how they think it should be, it's horrible.

    On the other hand, some people will love the game simply because it's in the genere they love. Nothing is bad, because they blindly love the concept.

    Indeed.

    These forums aren't so different from every other gaming forum I've ever been a part of...going way way back.

    "All this has happened before, all this will happen again"....ooops...sorry, wrong sci-fi show....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    While I'm a subscriber to Occam's razor in general I dont see that as the solution here to be frank. I think the fundamental matter at hand is related to an information vacuum, misperceptions, jadedness and ignorance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Forum moderation can make a big difference also,

    Currently most posts scroll of the page fast, leading to the idea that more sub sections are needed.

    And forums become a snap shot of any one short period of time.

    If there was a section for flame wars or critical comments where people could post comments about leaving and 'I want your stuff', And another section for Constructive critism, and another section for story ideas or Role play ideas, Then rants that give that whaaa feel, without costructive critisim could be sent to another part of the forum. Title that group something like venting, and use it to vent threads that have a right to be seen but should not run off positive threads like this one. A couple trolls have hijacked threads that were constructive by insulting players also, so moderation in those areas could maintain some constructive order without being infringement on expression.

    And then Idea posts might stay at top of a board long enough to have an impact.

    Highly active forums ususually mean only ideas that are highly vitroal, and get many responses stay on top of board.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    True forum moderation can make a big difference but only if handled correctly. Otherwise it can cause more problems than it is worth. Eventually all the trolls and flamers do go home and others simply lose interest and things quiet down dramatically. Then of course the clean up crew moves in and clears up all the carnage.

    These forums were moderated rather harshly before and those actions resulted in a backlash of sorts on other forums and venues. It seems Cryptic has toned down its policy recently however. That or the moderators are simply overwhelmed with all the threads recently. i know I have read many posts that a mere one month ago would have resulted in a suspension without any redress option.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Scott Jennings recently posted a follow up article on STO looking at things from a designer perspective. You can read the article here:

    STO - The Good, The Bad & The Ugly
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    For anyone interested in reading about the "scope" of the game from the executive producer's perspective, Tom Chick interviewed Craig Zinkievich about all the details. You can find the interview at the following link:

    Star Trek Online producer warns against feeding bridge officers
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Some good reading there, good links from the OP.

    On a personal note, yeah developers have have left us high and dry, came into this wanting it to succeed, but do feel isolated, there is no clear guidance of where were going and it all kinda feels a bit sad and disjointed. Im starting to feel less inclined to log already after this short time since release.

    Having played from CB, to OB, into head start, I wanted to give it a chance, but two things are pushing me out, developers and some of the community. Developers havent really led us anywhere but into a big black vacuum (oh, thats space isnt it), but also the community, dont get me wrong lots of good guys and girls in here, but some numpties too. Take for example not 30 minutes ago, I thought Id log in and do a bit of hostile encountering, Romulan space, whilst floundering around with my turn rates to get to any skirmishes going on, I happened upon one single fed vessel, blatting away at battleships, ok, boost their shields and hull with buffs, then wade in and help finish the squadron off. I didnt notice imediatly, but happened to glance at chat, "Get lost *#!!**" was in there from my comrade in arms, well my heart sank, dunno what Id done, nor could I be bothered to respond to such poor manners, so I promptly warped out of the Zone, and logged off.

    This is just an example of the real daft mentality of all thats going on, and im coming across more and more in general now. Ive played mmorpg's for a good time now, and I recall the driving force behind me wanting to help out and play the paladin, but the direction of the community is forcing me more and more to become a solo player, playing off line . I sometimes cannot believe the fury and sheer nastiness of some posts in here, and conversations in the chat window in game. Maybe its gonna get better, maybe Im getting to old for this, but it is leaving me with a real sense of doom about communities in general.

    Dont spose we will ever get back to the old days.

    Peace
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