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Reverse Polarity Stacking

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Its out of control at tier 5, and needs to incour higher cooldowns. Being virtually invulnerable 80-90% of the match is out of balance.

Za'Rex
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zautin wrote: »
    Its out of control at tier 5, and needs to incour higher cooldowns. Being virtually invulnerable 80-90% of the match is out of balance.

    Za'Rex

    personally this is a bigger problem then MES was.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    How can this be possible with the 3 minute cooldown and 15 sec duration>?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Monthar wrote:
    How can this be possible with the 3 minute cooldown and 15 sec duration>?

    4-5 copies of it and photonic officer
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    In that case I think all skills should share the full cooldown for same level and only apply the current shared for different levels. So 2 BOffs both with Skill XYZ 1 would be a waste as activating 1 would put both on cooldown. However if One BOff has XYZ 1 and the other has XYZ 2, then the standard shared cooldown would apply.

    The implications of this issue with RPS, means someone could likely have multiple copies of the other skills too. Imagine some of those other longer cooldown skills being done like this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Monthar wrote:
    In that case I think all skills should share the full cooldown for same level and only apply the current shared for different levels. So 2 BOffs both with Skill XYZ 1 would be a waste as activating 1 would put both on cooldown. However if One BOff has XYZ 1 and the other has XYZ 2, then the standard shared cooldown would apply.

    The implications of this issue with RPS, means someone could likely have multiple copies of the other skills too. Imagine some of those other longer cooldown skills being done like this.

    I agree with this. If RSP is this exploitable in late game I bet a lot of other skills will be too. If you use RSP3 and the same officer has RSP2, they should both go on a 5min cooldown. Maybe not all skills should work this way, but RSP definitely should.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Or just kill stacking the same skill all together. I honestly don't see a reason for an ability to stack in STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hmm, maybe another possible solution could be to only allow BOffs to learn 1 level of any skill. So if they learn level 1, they'd have to trade that for something else to learn Level 2 or 3. Then on most ships you'd only get to see a max of 2 of any skill, 4 on a BoP if the player really wanted to have all 4 slots with the same type of officer and severely gimp the rest of their abilities to do so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I agree with this. If RSP is this exploitable in late game I bet a lot of other skills will be too. If you use RSP3 and the same officer has RSP2, they should both go on a 5min cooldown. Maybe not all skills should work this way, but RSP definitely should.

    No I meant if 2 Officers have RSP 1, they both go on the same total cooldown. If a single officer has RSP 1, 2 and 3 (or if ithe 3 levels are split between officers) the normal shared cooldown would apply. I say this because I believe the shared cooldowns were set expecting players to use 1 of each level not 2 of each level, or in the case of a BoP up to 4 of each level, if the player puts the same type of BOff in all 4 universal slots.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Emn1ty wrote: »
    Or just kill stacking the same skill all together. I honestly don't see a reason for an ability to stack in STO.

    if you do this half the escort captains will cry bloody murder (not that I wouldnt like to hear the QQ). Skill stacking is a serious problem though. and something needs to be done, I would be in favor of all skills with the same name sharing an IDENTICAL cooldown while less of a cooldown for related systems, like it is currently.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    With skills like that there just has to be a shared cooldown. If you make it impossible to take multiple skills of the same type in general you'd completely kill off ships that are genuine healers for example. If you wouldn't be able to have multiple shield transfers and science teams you'd just be screwed if you wanted to be a healer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rothnang wrote:
    With skills like that there just has to be a shared cooldown. If you make it impossible to take multiple skills of the same type in general you'd completely kill off ships that are genuine healers for example. If you wouldn't be able to have multiple shield transfers and science teams you'd just be screwed if you wanted to be a healer.

    even with a shared cooldown its still bad.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Honestly I think global cooldowns should apply to the officer itself, not ability types. So if you smack down a RSP your Engineering BOff is now occupied with this ability. That way BOff abilities can be conbined, but one BOff can't spam abilities of his type. This would promote diversifying your BOff's, because similar BOff's would also share the cooldown.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rothnang wrote:
    With skills like that there just has to be a shared cooldown. If you make it impossible to take multiple skills of the same type in general you'd completely kill off ships that are genuine healers for example. If you wouldn't be able to have multiple shield transfers and science teams you'd just be screwed if you wanted to be a healer.

    Eh? There's lots of differing healing type powers. Certianly enough that this shouldn't be a problem. I mean, i suppose if you really go out of your way to sacrifice personal longevity for healing ability it may be an issue but it shouldn't otherwise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think a full shared cooldown for the same rank of a skill sounds like a good solution so you can only stack, say, Reverse Shield Polarity I, II, III and not any other ranks.

    Also, some other abilities that remove buffs on targets or Directed Energy Modulation actually providing significant penetration would help remedy the problem.

    Stacking isn't much of an issue with many other skills, really.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Reverse polarity is the only skill which causes an issue from my experience, healing cooldowns seem to be just fine as well with tactical.

    They all just need to share the same cooldown to be honest, watching a guy chain them is simply stupid.

    Za'Rex
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Been saying since closed beta that you should only be able to take a single BOF skill once. If you do have a skill twice or more they should all be on the exact same cool down to make it worthless taking them multiple times.

    Being able to take the same skill so many times is going to make PvP very dull. It will simply be a spamorama of RSP, Science team and viral matrix. This is really going to kill any and all diversity in the end game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tenikis wrote: »
    Been saying since closed beta that you should only be able to take a single BOF skill once. If you do have a skill twice or more they should all be on the exact same cool down to make it worthless taking them multiple times.

    Being able to take the same skill so many times is going to make PvP very dull. It will simply be a spamorama of RSP, Science team and viral matrix. This is really going to kill any and all diversity in the end game.
    Most of the game needs to be slowed down. BOff abilities should be heavily situational rather than constant perks. Rather than the cooldowns being lowered they more likely just need a boosted effect or added manipulation of said ability.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    even with a shared cooldown its still bad.

    If hitting the ability would put all other ranks and instances of it on the same cooldown so that there is absolutely no point to having several it would still be bad?
    tenikis wrote: »
    Been saying since closed beta that you should only be able to take a single BOF skill once. If you do have a skill twice or more they should all be on the exact same cool down to make it worthless taking them multiple times.
    .

    That's completely stupid. How would a science ship heal people if it couldn't have multiple instances of science team or shield transfer?

    How would a science ship use anomalies or tachyon beams to damage someone if it could only have one of them at a time?

    It's bad enough that with some of the lower-key abilities you get smacked with a shared cooldown because they use the same system, like with Tachyon beams. You need 2 or 3 to make a dent in a battleships shields, so it's bad enough that you have to wait 10 seconds between firing them. If you could only have one of them the ability would become completely useless.

    Same with Science Team or Transfer Shield Strength, those abilities would be utterly worthless if you could only have them once, because their cooldowns are so large that you just have to bring several of them to be in any way effective.


    The issue in question hits one specific type of ability:

    Abilities that have a duration of a powerful effect and a long cooldown, because for one the fact that they have a duration means that the 10 second shared cooldown doesn't affect them, and secondly if something has a duration + cooldown it's obviously not meant to be up at all times.




    I think the answer is to either institute a shared cooldown on abilities that fall under this category, or better, give every buff a debuff component right after it that doesn't allow the player to recieve the same buff a second time for a certain number of seconds.

    For example, every time Reverse Polarity is applied for 15 seconds it also applies a 1 minute debuff that makes it impossible to have reverse polarity active.

    This would prevent cross stacking for buffs that you can put on other people, as in, multiple ships have one instance of the ability and use it on the same person to attain the same effect as one ship having multiple instances.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rothnang wrote:
    If hitting the ability would put all other ranks and instances of it on the same cooldown so that there is absolutely no point to having several it would still be bad?



    That's completely stupid. How would a science ship heal people if it couldn't have multiple instances of science team or shield transfer?

    How would a science ship use anomalies or tachyon beams to damage someone if it could only have one of them at a time?


    Well the point is you're supposed to use team work and strategies within your group depending on the situation at hand, not have the entire team perma invulnerable because you took all the defense/heal skills multiple times over. I find it amusing I actually have to explain this to someone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Exactly. PvP would go alot smoother if more sparring use of BOff abilities was forced. It would be less power spam and more actual combat between ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tenikis wrote: »
    Well the point is you're supposed to use team work and strategies within your group depending on the situation at hand, not have the entire team perma invulnerable because you took all the defense/heal skills multiple times over. I find it amusing I actually have to explain this to someone.

    Oh, ok, so all focussed setups should become useless to counteract one overpowered skill? Yes, really, that makes perfect sense. I mean why should anyone want to have two science teams, or two shield transfers, what madness!

    There is already a lot of advantages to diversifying your loadout, and that's in the shared cooldowns. Just because these don't apply to some abilities with a duration doesn't mean that all focussed builds need to be removed from the game.


    Science Team and Shield Transfer already have a 45 second cooldown for example, and a 10 second shared cooldown each. So in order to heal twice in a row you need to bring one of each at least, and in order to heal more than once every 45 second you need to bring several of each.

    Are you getting this? If you want to be a healer you can sacrifice the ability to do other stuff and in turn become pretty good at your job.

    What is the problem with that? huh? Explain that to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Big problem. Must fix. ASAP! Can't have too many shield rotations, it will cause the universe to fall apart and Geordi to roll in his sleep... Scotty, no moar shiftin' the polarity. It makes my hair staticy

    Polarity reversing always means bad things anyway... however he made it work, I'll nevah know! :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think what he means is that it is too easy to use ALL your abilities in an extremely short timeframe. This makes abilities spammy and less tools. The game becomes about who has the best spam loadout (the best stacks with the least cooldowns) rather than which arrangement of abilities is better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yea, but spamming abilities is acctually ONLY possible if you are using a diversified setup, if you're running a setup with the same power multiple times you have to wait 10 seconds between using them.

    The issue with Reverse Polarity is just that since it has a 15 second timer the 10 second shared cooldown doesn't affect it at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Rothnang wrote:
    Oh, ok, so all focussed setups should become useless to counteract one overpowered skill? Yes, really, that makes perfect sense. I mean why should anyone want to have two science teams, or two shield transfers, what madness!

    There is already a lot of advantages to diversifying your loadout, and that's in the shared cooldowns. Just because these don't apply to some abilities with a duration doesn't mean that all focussed builds need to be removed from the game.


    Science Team and Shield Transfer already have a 45 second cooldown for example, and a 10 second shared cooldown each. So in order to heal twice in a row you need to bring one of each at least, and in order to heal more than once every 45 second you need to bring several of each.

    Are you getting this? If you want to be a healer you can sacrifice the ability to do other stuff and in turn become pretty good at your job.

    What is the problem with that? huh? Explain that to me.

    Haha, ok ill explain this to you.

    Im a fed cruiser and i love to heal and do supportive dmg. The healing skills i use are all different, i dont use any duplicate skill. Except that i run 2 RSP to keep up with the game and am even tempted to go for 3. (yes i hate the current situation and i also hate the fact that a ship can have cannons cloak AND viral matrix, which is clearly OP, but thats a different matter).

    But suppose, im running 2 ESP and then 3 Extend shield BO skills, that could make me save 3 teammembers for 30 secs, thats like almost a full team in a 30 sec semi-godmode. Or me perma semi-godmode 1 teammember im duo'ing with, because the cruiser gets attacked last.

    So there you have it, constant similar BO skill spamming just because they are GOOD skills, so good that you want to use it multiple times. And thats the problem. If you cant see that, i have no hope for you. Every skill should be used for its type and situation, it should not be a spammable skill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Then maybe making someone who blows all their abilities at once sorry would be better. Such as longer cooldowns for all abilities, or a global cooldown for everything if X number of cooldowns are used within X time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Another thing we can expect are cruiser teams which each member heals the member left to him for example. With 2 extend shield on each cruiser, that perma-godmode for the whole team.

    So something which can by cycled without gaps in between to have some kind of expose or vulnerability is clearly overpowered and hopefully not intended by cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    wrote:
    Another thing we can expect are cruiser teams which each member heals the member left to him for example. With 2 extend shield on each cruiser, that perma-godmode for the whole team.

    So something which can by cycled without gaps in between to have some kind of expose or vulnerability is clearly overpowered and hopefully not intended by cryptic.
    For those situations, not being able to be reinforced with something that YOU have on cooldown would be nice as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Emn1ty wrote: »
    For those situations, not being able to be reinforced with something that YOU have on cooldown would be nice as well.

    wait? wut? :confused:

    I dont understand what you are getting at. All im saying is that there will be cruiser trains in 5v5 if this keeps up.
    Train as in, everyone following each other to keep the distance tidy, almost like POTBS.

    I just agree with OP, spammable identical BO skills shouldnt be allowed, especially for RSP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Get a science ship to fly in between them and pushem away from each other. Whats that purple pushy skill called again?
    koroi wrote: »
    Another thing we can expect are cruiser teams which each member heals the member left to him for example. With 2 extend shield on each cruiser, that perma-godmode for the whole team.

    So something which can by cycled without gaps in between to have some kind of expose or vulnerability is clearly overpowered and hopefully not intended by cryptic.
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