From all across the forums you have groups of users on one side or the other of different positions regarding the game. Topics like "Death Penalties" and "Game Difficulty" are become hot button issues, eliciting swaths of comments, debates, and name calling like religion and politics does in a University Cafeteria. And this is somewhat understandable- this is Star Trek, and that is something that is held dear to many fans. This is also a video game, something that is held dear to the rest of the demographic involved in this venture.
With that in mind, I have, for the better part of a week, attempted to come up with a compromise that defies the law of compromise, in that it doesn't suck. What I am about to lay out before you are proposals for the game that should make everyone happy, save for the tiny, tiny percentage of players that either like to play games in god mode or like to be whipped for pleasure.
The first big issue was how to deal with death. Currently as the game exists, death can be used as a tool for advancement. Some argue that this doesn't matter, people who want to play that way can play that way. Others argue that death is, ironically, the path of least resistance towards success, and that this should not be so. In either case, no one is actually suggesting that death being usable for a tool for success is a good thing, so both sides can agree that if the death zerg exploit can be removed with minimal impact on all players, this is a good thing.
The next big issue is the game difficulty, but fortunately, this is an easier fix. Options work wonders here, because even the most hardcore of players will be willing to turn the heat down a notch if they come across an encounter that they just cannot get past.
All other issues tend to get resolved by fixing the above, so let's get started.
PART ONE: Dealilng With Death
Currently, when you die, you explode, and respawn fifteen seconds later. If you are solo, the NPCs you were fighting and that are still alive are supposed to regenerate to full health instantly and go back to their start positions (this does not always seem to happen). The problem arises in groups and fleet actions, when the NPCs are still engaged, and the defeated player just sails back in to continue pummeling on the NPC. This is called the Death Zerg, and this is what we want to eliminate.
To do this I call for a number of changes, and some of these ideas come from other users on this board, most notably the Derelict Ship System as proposed by Kalthios. The basic idea is this: when you die, instead of exploding, your ship becomes a derelict that randomly drifts in a direction at a very slow speed. What happens after that depends on your situation.
If you are Solo- You will have two options (three at higher levels, see 2nd corollary):
First, you can choose to abandon ship. This will respawn you back in the instance at full health, ready to go. However, the NPC spawn that defeated you will have completely respawned and regenerated. That means any ships you have killed in a spawn group will be replaced, and any ships you damaged will be fully repaired, but only in a spawn group that was not fully destroyed. Any groups that were completely eliminated prior to death will still be so.
The second option is to self destruct, and you end up in the sector map, and you must pick up the mission where you left it (as if you got disconnected). This means any spawn groups you defeated will be respawned. This also means your death tally for this portion of the mission is also reset, so if you choose this option, and you haven't died elsewhere in the mission, then you can still get the "Not Dieing Bonus" provided you still don't die.
If you are Grouped- You will have three options:
First, you can drift and wait for a groupmate to repair you with either Engineering Team or another power that I will be proposing later in this post, bringing you back to minimal health, allowing self repair and other repair options to be used on you. This is, in essence, a revive, and can be done in combat.
The second option is abandoning ship. This is just like the single player version, with one major caveat: you can only respawn once your group is out of combat. This means if your group gets wiped, you can all respawn, but as in the solo version, undefeated spawn groups will be completely restored, or if your group manages to defeat the NPCs and/or run away to get out of combat, then you respawn and rejoin the group, and no NPCs are restored.
The third option is to self destruct, and like the solo player version, you end up back in the sector map. This can be done even if your group is in combat, however, you cannot rejoin the instance until your group is out of combat. Like the solo option, if everyone chooses this, it reset's the group's death tally for this portion of the instance.
If you are in a Fleet Action
When you die, your options remain the same as if you were grouped, even if you were solo (meaning others can revive you). However, in a fleet action, you can respawn at any time, even if your group is still in combat.
If you are in PvP
The rules would follow group rules. Furthermore, all players in PvP would be forced into a group, and match sizes would be based on fives (5v5, 10v10, 15v15, etc etc). As such, you cannot respawn unless your group is out of combat, but you may be revived. However, do so with caution, because in deathmatch, a death is a death is a death.
Furthermore, if choose to self destruct, you respawn still in the match, but in the respawn area, unable to move or take action for thirty seconds; This will progressively increase based on the number of times you have chosen this option, up to a minute.
Additions to PvP: Indestructible NPC Defended Spawn Areas (yes, they can detect cloaked ships). The exterior portions of the defense (the Sentries, if you will) have a limited range (4km) so that they cannot influence the battlefield that much, but are powerful enough to blow any ship that is trying to sneak past them easily enough, and are spaced apart in a manner that you will go within 4km of one.. Also, their are internal defenses situated with normal ranged weapons that can engage out to the sentries.
But wait, there's more!
On top of this method with dealing with death, there are bonuses for staying alive. These bonuses are likely to be Merit/Honor based, and if the developers deem a mission worthy of it, possibly even an item.
If you are solo, if you die, you get no bonus.
If you are grouped, and someone in your group dies, you get no bonus, however, your bonus is greater if you're grouped than if you were solo.
If you're in a fleet action, your deaths count against you in your final score. Which leads me to suggested changes to fleet actions.
Corollary to Part One: Fleet Actions
Fleet actions are a very different sect of gameplay than normal missions, and so need some separate attention. First and foremost, the idea of Damage Dealt being the sole metric of success is ridiculous. So, all other factors of gameplay need to be included: Damage Dealt, Damage Received, Healing Done to Others (and not done to yourself), and Deaths all need to be calculated. And it needs to be effective damage or healing- healing someone who is at full health should net you zero points, likewise, excessive damage done past a creatures 0 HP should not be tallied.
Also, fleet actions should be grouped based. Groups as a whole should receive the rewards for being at the top of the list, second, third, and so on and so forth. This means that a group's actions are taken into account in totality, and includes the number of times group members have died (so no Death Zerging for the win). A solo player could still compete, but fleet actions should encourage grouping, so players should be rewarded as a group.
Second Corollary to Part One: Suggested Power Changes
To make this system work, a few powers need to be changed.
First- Engineer teams need to have a "revive" component added to them, to allow others to restore derelict players. Higher grade Engineer Teams would revive players with more health.
Second- Ramming Speed needs to be removed. Its ridiculous as a power anyways. It needs to be replaced with a minor revival power, that allows any player to revive other players with minimal health. This ability would have a LONG (re: One Hour) cooldown.
Third- Abandon Ship power needs to be replaced with a power that allows to a player to self revive with minimal health. This means a player that is solo could allow themselves to drift away from the NPCs that killed them, then self revive, heal up, and go back into the fight without having to respawn and allow the NPCs to be completely restored. This power would have a LONG (re: One Hour) cooldown.
PART TWO: Game Difficulty
Both the easiest fix and yet the most difficult to get right.
First off, make game difficulty selectable. Make the current difficult the Easy Mode. Make adjustments and additions for the Normal Mode and Hard Mode.
Adjustments needed would include tweaking upward NPC damage, health, and damage resistances- higher amounts for the higher difficulties.
Other adjustments would be changing how NPCs use their abilities- for example, have NPCs save spike damage powers like High Yield Torpedo for when their target has a downed or almost downed shield, instead of having the NPC use the power whenever it is available.
Also change spawn groupings for harder levels. Instead of three BoPs being the norm, make it two BoPs and a Raptor for Normal, and then four BoPs for Hard.
For additions- add environmental elements that players must be aware of. For example, in normal mode, make bumping into an asteroid deal kinetic damage equal to an odd mark mine (ie, in a Tier 2 mission, make it equal a mk III mine), while in hard, make it equal to an even mark mine (ie, same scenario it would be mk IV).
With the difficulty slider, this would allow players that like the current experience to continue enjoying the game as is, while players seeking a challenge can up the ante to suit their needs.
ADDENDUM: Apart from a better gaming experience, The "Not Dieing Bonus" would get progressively better
based on difficulty.
ADDENDUM 2: Difficulty in groups would be based off of the group leader's selection. There would also be a filter in the LFG screen to sort by chosen difficulty.
I think that about covers it. If I missed anything, or you have comments or suggestions, feel free to chime in.
What about scalable loot? My friend and I were arguing about how people would whine if they played a mission on a higher difficulty but got the same loot as someone who played it on easy.
I truly don't believe there is a way to be able to scale the loot the way it is presented in this game since it is all basically the same.
So Cryptic would be pigeonholed into making a difficulty slider with the same rewards. And people would get complain that everyone was getting the same rewards as those on easy.
What about scalable loot? My friend and I were arguing about how people would whine if they played a mission on a higher difficulty but got the same loot as someone who played it on easy.
While they probably would whine... they have been arguing (those arguing for an difficulty increase) that it's all about the challenge and satisfaction of beating the game on a harder level of difficulty. But I do believe they will be the first ones demanding better/more loot if they play a harder setting.
sevensided, I won't quote the post since it is too big, I'll just reply to parts of it...
First, you can choose to abandon ship. This will respawn you back in the instance at full health, ready to go. However, the NPC spawn that defeated you will have completely respawned and regenerated. That means any ships you have killed in a spawn group will be replaced, and any ships you damaged will be fully repaired, but only in a spawn group that was not fully destroyed. Any groups that were completely eliminated prior to death will still be so.
Unless you add a clause here to say "Killing this spawn again will not yield any rewards of any kind", then people will be able to farm missions/instances quite easily, especially since that death penalty doesn't actually place any negative effects that would outweigh farming NPCs.
The whole set of those rules isn't that much of a hinerance. Respawning the wave and putting them back to full HP is what most MMOs do, and is probably supposed to at least partly do in STO but it is bugged/broken. A reset of the current part of the mission is easily done by players manually as well. All these things you said at this part is stuff that is already in the game or should be but isn't working as it should. Not really adding anything new except a dialogue box asking them.
In PvP, we don't need an option for "Self-Destruct - Go back to Sector Space", we have enough issues getting people into the matches and filling them, trying to keep people from leaving, let alone having a message come up telling them to click here to quit. Also what happens with a simple exploit? Say a capture and hold map, the enemy manages to wipe your team except one player, they decide to follow that player around doing very little damage every so often to keep him in combat, and if he revives anyone they nuke that person and continue, while the rest of the team run around capping points. You can't respawn while he is attacked and you will get killed if revived, so your only option is exit to sector.
Unless I read it wrong, the difficulty should effect the reward also, with that slider suggestion. Otherwise why wouldn't I just go easiest mode for every single mission, get full rewards, and get to the end of the game much faster? Rewards should scale if you have that system in place.
Most of what you've said though doesn't sound like a DP to me, you can respawn, like before but likely quicker but only if your team is out of combat, which in PvP can lead to griefing. You have the exit to sector space button which already exists, and the revival which is the only thing different but subtracts from a DP if you can be revived before 15 seconds. So unless you revive with less shield/hp/power for a while, and if you choose to respawn, you should have a debuff to, there isn't much point. If the combat lasts a while, they'll revive you on the spot and you'll continue on, if the battle ends fast, you'll respawn and continue on.
Now please tell me if I read or understood it wrong, but there looks like nothing much if anything was added as a DP and you've opened up a bunch of exploits, and potentially even more death zerg.
Added some things I left out in the initial post, and some quick "duh changes"
1. Choosing to respawn to sector map resets your death tally for that part of the instance, so you can still get the "Not Dieing Bonus", but you have to do that portion all over again (as if you disconnected). This will also make sure disconnects are not counted as death.
2. Choosing to Self Destruct in PvP causes you to respawn in the respawn area, but with a forced wait until you can rejoin the battle.
Most of what you've said though doesn't sound like a DP to me, you can respawn, like before but likely quicker but only if your team is out of combat, which in PvP can lead to griefing. You have the exit to sector space button which already exists, and the revival which is the only thing different but subtracts from a DP if you can be revived before 15 seconds. So unless you revive with less shield/hp/power for a while, and if you choose to respawn, you should have a debuff to, there isn't much point. If the combat lasts a while, they'll revive you on the spot and you'll continue on, if the battle ends fast, you'll respawn and continue on.
Now please tell me if I read or understood it wrong, but there looks like nothing much if anything was added as a DP and you've opened up a bunch of exploits, and potentially even more death zerg.
The point was not to add a death penalty, per se, but rather to remove the ability to death zerg. Under this system, you cannot death zerg. If you are solo, and die, then the spawn that killed you will be fully restored- not only will their health be replenished, but any ships you destroyed in the spawn that defeated you will be replaced. You have to re face the spawn, in its entirety, that killed you.
In Group, you cannot respawn until your group is out of combat, meaning you cannot die, and rush back into the fight again. Either your group has to defeat them on their own, get wiped, and thus face the spawn all over again, like the solo option, or else spend the time and effort to revive you, protect you from the NPCs killing you while you're still weak, and heal you. Also, you're group, at that point, has lost the "Not Dieing Bonus", unless they wipe and choose to restart that portion of the instance.
The point is to remove the death zerg, increase the difficulty (or potential difficulty), add a reason to not die, and NOT add any excessive time sink related death penalties while doing so. I think that this accomplishes this- the adjustments and additions to NPCs needs more fleshing out, but lacking full insight on how things are programmed in the game, I can only offer some suggestions in that ragard that will hopefully lead Devs on the right path, so to speak.
As for loot and XP exploitation, that currently exists in the game for missions, however, its more efficient, and would still be so, to farm fleet actions for loot and XP, than it would be to farm missions.
As for potential for griefing in PvP- I added the respawn option that replaces the exit to sector map. Was actually in the original idea but forgot to place it in there.
Also added the Scalable Rewards for Difficulty as a "Duh" thing that I overlooked.
Sounds like a solid plan and choke full of options which is a good thing for the various situations. I would also consider adjusting not only the "No Death" bonus but also scale the base rewards for added incentive for people to try to achieve things at more difficult levels. This may seem like the same thing but there are different type of rewards and I think they should be looked at independently of each other.
Very well thought out stuff here. I myslef like the repair (revive) idea, in fact I cant see how it inst in the game. I think any fleet action should just simply reward some badges if you live through it (small amount) and none if you zerg (er none if you die), standard rewards still apply. Badges can be earned by grinding, or by being a better player, so nobody is left out and skill is rewarded by less grinding. Err it is badges right (still not complelty up on all the lingo here) the exploration badges you buy stuff with?
the combat slider (for level of challange) I hear they are looking into it. While I think combat is to easy atm, the combat slider is going to open pandoras box. I think they need to wait a bit till they have the time to deal with it. (month-2-4 months maybe?) I know many say "I just want the challange" but as soon as combat is ramped up (raise your hand if you think I'm wrong) those same people will soon say "i want better rewards, I'm working harder. And yas, I'm a better player so I deserve it". Not a can of worms worth opening IMHO, at least not yet.
With that in mind, I have, for the better part of a week, attempted to come up with a compromise that defies the law of compromise, in that it doesn't suck. What I am about to lay out before you are proposals for the game that should make everyone happy, save for the tiny, tiny percentage of players that either like to play games in god mode or like to be whipped for pleasure.
You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Excellent suggestions, most especially the derelict ship idea. This angry gorilla is pacified.
It has already been stated that the DP will not change. At this point, now officially post launch, if a DP other than the "kind of" one in place were implemented STO would lose a LOT of subs. There are many people playing who never have played an MMORPG before and would not understand why a DP is important (if it really is all that important). They would see that the game they have been playing had become a lot harder for them than it was, and leave.
I'm still of the mind of if you need a harsher DP of any type you have motivation issues. If you need pain to influence you to play better there is a problem. On the other hand, you could ask a loved one to stand behind you and hit you with a cattle prod or a taser every time you die. Now THAT is a death penalty!
The wall of text hurt my eyes, but I read it anyways, because it was well thought out and presented a compromise. It presented it constructively too, so bonus. Here's to hoping the devs read it and at least weigh in on it.
That being said, the thread title implied (to me at least) that pie would somehow be a part of the compromise. I would like some pie while I wait for everyone else in the fleet action to wipe, or for some kindly science geek...er, I mean science captain to rez me.
In all seriousness though, I like the derelict ship idea.
I also think Cryptic went with the soft Death Penalty idea because of the exceptionally large number of older gamers and people who haven't played MMO's before. They may *want* it to be easier and more casual. Still, further down the road when those people that had never played an MMO before turn into grizzled jaded veterans like the rest of us :P then even they will see the fun in a new challenge, and hopefully, this gets revisited then.
Ok so no DP, new players and all, can live with it, understand it.
Lets make a "LIVE BONUS" then, as with my keeping it as simple as possible (so i can understand it) way of thinking. Again I say just add a 5 bonus badges (number so low its not going to take hours of grinding to make up for it) for living from start to finish of fleet battle or quest. that way the zergs can still grind the same thing if they want, and the people who try "harder" get a small reward that wont tip the game in there favor any way.
or even easier, 1badge for no deth in 10 battles, 2 badges for next 20, 3 badges for next 40, etc.. make it build but also make it harder and harder. so the hardcore can have goals!
wait a sec ( been saying badges, is it merits? opps...
It has already been stated that the DP will not change. At this point, now officially post launch, if a DP other than the "kind of" one in place were implemented STO would lose a LOT of subs. There are many people playing who never have played an MMORPG before and would not understand why a DP is important (if it really is all that important). They would see that the game they have been playing had become a lot harder for them than it was, and leave.
I'm still of the mind of if you need a harsher DP of any type you have motivation issues. If you need pain to influence you to play better there is a problem. On the other hand, you could ask a loved one to stand behind you and hit you with a cattle prod or a taser every time you die. Now THAT is a death penalty!
Ok so no DP, new players and all, can live with it, understand it.
Lets make a "LIVE BONUS" then, as with my keeping it as simple as possible (so i can understand it) way of thinking. Again I say just add a 5 bonus badges (number so low its not going to take hours of grinding to make up for it) for living from start to finish of fleet battle or quest. that way the zergs can still grind the same thing if they want, and the people who try "harder" get a small reward that wont tip the game in there favor any way.
or even easier, 1badge for no deth in 10 battles, 2 badges for next 20, 3 badges for next 40, etc.. make it build but also make it harder and harder. so the hardcore can have goals!
wait a sec ( been saying badges, is it merits? opps...
Did either of you read the original post? I'm of the mind you did not based off the response. Not reading because you don't have time, are not interested, or because you dislike me is one thing. But responding to it without actually having read it is another thing all together- a whole new level of ennui and rudeness.
Don't abandon your DP ideas because of what they said, the derelict is the crown jewel to that whole idea. I hadn't thought of it before, but that is exactly what this game needs, true "death." So far it's been very fun, but losing my ship in combat has never seemed to be a threat, this makes it a threat. It also opens the doors for so many new styles of play.
While I do not agree on getting rid of ramming speed, I do think it should have stipulations that "nerf" it, so to speak. Set it up so that you can only use it at a certain hull percentage, then you charge towards your target, ram them, deal damage, and continue drifting as a derelict. It should be a last-ditch effort to finish your opponent when you know you're going to get "derelict-ed."
Your points on PvP and team play are also very nice and I do hope the devs take a look at this and consider your proposals.
(I'm not going to touch the difficulty slider issue, but I do think the NPCs could be a touch "smarter")
You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Excellent suggestions, most especially the derelict ship idea. This angry gorilla is pacified.
/support
I cannot take credit for the Derelict Ship Idea, that was Kalthios's brainstorm. However, I think I've included the parts of it and changed it ever so slightly so as to appeal to both crowds. On the one hand, death zerg is a reduced or eliminated option. On the other hand, there are no time draining death penalties.
Did either of you read the original post? I'm of the mind you did not based off the response. Not reading because you don't have time, are not interested, or because you dislike me is one thing. But responding to it without actually having read it is another thing all together- a whole new level of ennui and rudeness.
calling it a new name doesnt change that its a penlty for Losing (death- just a name for losing a battle in this game) the NO DP penelty is just that, no penelty, no sitting waiting for a reapair, no waiting ot enter combat (besides the 15 seconds it is now).
Sorry I read your entire thing, and agreed with it, liked the ideas, ans yes even shot a few of my own in. the responce you replied to was in responce not to your original post (I did that earlier) but to the "Cryptic has said there will be NO CHANGE in the current DP" If its true, i mentioned that maybe there should be a bonus for liveing then, since they said nothing was going to change about dying.
I still like your ideas (or your layout of others ideas as you stated with the Derelict Ship thing). And still respect the ideas and your well thought out post. But I did (mildy) take offence to you deciding I didnt read them (good save by saying "based off"). Dont worry i still like the ideas and am already over the mild offence (it is afterall the internet, we all have opinions we want everybody to hear!). Never been that good with words, spell horrible, and am not an english major (reading this I'm sure most will think Im not even at 1st grade level).
keep up the good fight, I think all or some of your ideas will make the game better, if they get heard.
-edit- err cake on face, I did read it all and did catch the HONOR thing but did miss the "merit" thing (both right besides each other no less), so you where right (somewaht) i did read it all, just didnt comprehend it all. The perils of reading to many posts, the goods ones stil get power read and I did miss that. SO good sire, you where right i was wrong. And I again say, keep going with this idea.
Ah well, right then. Apologies. Though I did suggest a bonus for not dieing.
And I realise that Cryptic seems to be adamantly against the DP, but, that is always subject to change, like everything in MMOs, and I'd like these ideas to be refined into something that can be agreeable to all.
Now then, down to brass tacks-
These suggestions are not significantly worse than the current 15 second wait (at least in PvE). The caveat is the reformation of the spawn group, which is the key point so as to neutralise death zerg.
In groups, the wait may be longer, as you hope your group manages to defeat the spawn without you (one clarification, in case anyone thinks otherwise- while a derelict, you would still get xp from kills, like you do now when you die and have not respawned yet), or hope someone manages to sling a revive your way. Regardless, this is MUCH LESS deplorable than suffering a deubuff that expires in 5-10 minutes, or a permanent debuff that can only be removed by going to the nearest starbase/Sol.
At higher levels, when fights generally take longer (and thus your wait could potentially be longer), you are given a self revive, and everyone, regardless of ship type or BO powers, has a weak revive they can use (albeit, on a long cooldown, so don't over do it).
Worst case scenario- someone in your group is the last one alive and decides to be an TRIBBLE and just tank the last remaining NPC keeping you all from respawning. That is why there's the option to self destruct and re appear outside the instance. In any case, if you have someone doing that, you're probably better starting over with a different group.
-edit- err cake on face, I did read it all and did catch the HONOR thing but did miss the "merit" thing (both right besides each other no less), so you where right (somewaht) i did read it all, just didnt comprehend it all. The perils of reading to many posts, the goods ones stil get power read and I did miss that. SO good sire, you where right i was wrong. And I again say, keep going with this idea.
Heh. Sorry if that was confusing- I included Honor and Merit, because Honor is supposed to be the KDF equivalent of merit, and I wrote this with both sides in mind when the KDF actually gets some PvE content.
excellent post, and I do hope that this thread catches cryptics eye (i understand they're busy getting everything stable at the moment, but a month or 2 down the road i hope to see game improvements rolling in )
as for the derelict ships i agree 100%
in a lot of cases it actually 'lowers' the current DP because you can be revived right there, no need to fly all the way back in!
and imo it meshes with the game too, because space combat would then be more similar to ground combat! (why can you revive on the ground, but not in space?)
and as for death zerging, i don't see why people see fixing this as a DP. imo, the current system is broken and being able to die over and over again as a tactic is an exploit
fixing an exploit isn't rasing or creating a DP, it's simply fixing the game
Instead of a respawn ability, perhaps at a later level every player would get a passive skill that restores their ship as a self revive ( the amount of time it would take would be based on the amount of crew members you have, similar to how you regenerate your hull integrity based upon your crew).
and as for death zerging, i don't see why people see fixing this as a DP. imo, the current system is broken and being able to die over and over again as a tactic is an exploit
fixing an exploit isn't rasing or creating a DP, it's simply fixing the game
My apologies. I thought I had formatted it in a way to be readable. Any suggestions to improve even this?
Um, less text?
I read the whole thing looking for where the pie fit in. I'm still desperately in need of pie.
I jest. I didn't mind it. A wall of text that's presented well is still an engaging read. A wall of QQ is worthless. You don't need to change anything. I wish more criticism was formatted this way, you know, with an actual solution. Good on ya.
i still haven't read the wall of text but if it's just a rehashed idea of a different time sink then i'm against it.
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks in this game. if you want time sinks then there are plenty of other games that offer lots of them. a recent one is aion. it's 90% unnecessary time sinks and content gaps and RNG with high rates of failure. perfect game for those wanting more time sinks. and you can fly in it for two minutes at a time.
i like the game the way it is. my ship repairs at a decent rate both in and out of combat, i don't need anyone else telling me to try harder because i already play as well as i can and am able to try new strategies without wasting TRIBBLE amounts of time if they fail.
if you want a time sink then simulate one by going afk for 5-15 everytime you die. if you need this timesink imposed on everyone else then again, go play aion or eve or potbs.
i still haven't read the wall of text but if it's just a rehashed idea of a different time sink then i'm against it.
basically, he proposes if you die you are cast adrift as a derelict and have to make a choice about abandoning your mission or group, waiting for everyone to wipe so you can all rez, or waiting for your group to bash face so someone can repair your hull and heal your crew and get you under way under your own steam again. There was lots of conditional stuff for people to haggle over, but the basic gist of it was a more traditional (but not overly harsh DP) system like something in, say WoW if you've ever played it. You can rez at the graveyard and run back into the instance like a TRIBBLE. The group will have killed or been killed by then, and you'll miss out on the loot. too bad so sad. Or you can wait till your group wins or wipes and get rezzed by a kindly healer, or rez at the graveyard together and go tackle it again from where you left off.
I'm ashamed to admit, I only latched onto the thread because of the promise of pie, however, the OP is actually well written if not a little on the wordy side, so pie be damned, this deserves every chance at main page discussion it can get.
basically, he proposes if you die you are cast adrift as a derelict and have to make a choice about abandoning your mission or group, waiting for everyone to wipe so you can all rez, or waiting for your group to bash face so someone can repair your hull and heal your crew and get you under way under your own steam again. There was lots of conditional stuff for people to haggle over, but the basic gist of it was a more traditional (but not overly harsh DP) system like something in, say WoW if you've ever played it. You can rez at the graveyard and run back into the instance like a TRIBBLE. The group will have killed or been killed by then, and you'll miss out on the loot. too bad so sad. Or you can wait till your group wins or wipes and get rezzed by a kindly healer, or rez at the graveyard together and go tackle it again from where you left off.
I'm ashamed to admit, I only latched onto the thread because of the promise of pie, however, the OP is actually well written if not a little on the wordy side, so pie be damned, this deserves every chance at main page discussion it can get.
i've already seen him post this in other threads and i am still against it.
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks.
although i'm not totally against waiting for the encounter to be over(PC ships out of combat)/ all player wiped before being able to respawn.
i've already seen him post this in other threads and i am still against it.
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks.
although i'm not totally against waiting for the encounter to be over(PC ships out of combat)/ all player wiped before being able to respawn.
I wouldn't call it a timesink, really. Making me run around systems looking for tetryon particles and alien artifacts so I can upgrade mk II equipment I have zero use for anymore is a timesink. Having to drift as a derlict because I was dumb and figured my little escort could tangle with those 4 Vo'Quv's is merely time to reflect on my tactical choices.
i've already seen him post this in other threads and i am still against it.
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks.
although i'm not totally against waiting for the encounter to be over(PC ships out of combat)/ all player wiped before being able to respawn.
There are no unnecessary time sinks. The choice is yours.
If you're solo, you can choose to respawn, like it currently is in the game, with the caveat that the spawn group that killed you will be fully restored, OR you can choose to respawn in the sector map, resetting the instance but letting you pick up were you left off in the mission, much like if you had gotten disconnected.
The latter option also resets your death tally, so you're still eligible for the "not dieing bonus", provided you have not died on other parts of the mission. Obviously, if you're solo, there is no one to revive you, so that is not an option until later, when you get a self revive power (that is on a long cool down).
The mechanic is changed when you group in that you can wait for one of your group mates to revive you, or wait till the group is out of combat to respawn- a necessary thing to deny death zerging when in groups.
This proposal is different, albeit possibly only slightly, from anything else I have posted in other threads. Things changed after taking into account various inputs.
Comments
I truly don't believe there is a way to be able to scale the loot the way it is presented in this game since it is all basically the same.
So Cryptic would be pigeonholed into making a difficulty slider with the same rewards. And people would get complain that everyone was getting the same rewards as those on easy.
While they probably would whine... they have been arguing (those arguing for an difficulty increase) that it's all about the challenge and satisfaction of beating the game on a harder level of difficulty. But I do believe they will be the first ones demanding better/more loot if they play a harder setting.
Unless you add a clause here to say "Killing this spawn again will not yield any rewards of any kind", then people will be able to farm missions/instances quite easily, especially since that death penalty doesn't actually place any negative effects that would outweigh farming NPCs.
The whole set of those rules isn't that much of a hinerance. Respawning the wave and putting them back to full HP is what most MMOs do, and is probably supposed to at least partly do in STO but it is bugged/broken. A reset of the current part of the mission is easily done by players manually as well. All these things you said at this part is stuff that is already in the game or should be but isn't working as it should. Not really adding anything new except a dialogue box asking them.
In PvP, we don't need an option for "Self-Destruct - Go back to Sector Space", we have enough issues getting people into the matches and filling them, trying to keep people from leaving, let alone having a message come up telling them to click here to quit. Also what happens with a simple exploit? Say a capture and hold map, the enemy manages to wipe your team except one player, they decide to follow that player around doing very little damage every so often to keep him in combat, and if he revives anyone they nuke that person and continue, while the rest of the team run around capping points. You can't respawn while he is attacked and you will get killed if revived, so your only option is exit to sector.
Unless I read it wrong, the difficulty should effect the reward also, with that slider suggestion. Otherwise why wouldn't I just go easiest mode for every single mission, get full rewards, and get to the end of the game much faster? Rewards should scale if you have that system in place.
Most of what you've said though doesn't sound like a DP to me, you can respawn, like before but likely quicker but only if your team is out of combat, which in PvP can lead to griefing. You have the exit to sector space button which already exists, and the revival which is the only thing different but subtracts from a DP if you can be revived before 15 seconds. So unless you revive with less shield/hp/power for a while, and if you choose to respawn, you should have a debuff to, there isn't much point. If the combat lasts a while, they'll revive you on the spot and you'll continue on, if the battle ends fast, you'll respawn and continue on.
Now please tell me if I read or understood it wrong, but there looks like nothing much if anything was added as a DP and you've opened up a bunch of exploits, and potentially even more death zerg.
1. Choosing to respawn to sector map resets your death tally for that part of the instance, so you can still get the "Not Dieing Bonus", but you have to do that portion all over again (as if you disconnected). This will also make sure disconnects are not counted as death.
2. Choosing to Self Destruct in PvP causes you to respawn in the respawn area, but with a forced wait until you can rejoin the battle.
3. NPC Defended Respawn ares in PvP
4. Scalable Bonuses based upon difficulty.
The point was not to add a death penalty, per se, but rather to remove the ability to death zerg. Under this system, you cannot death zerg. If you are solo, and die, then the spawn that killed you will be fully restored- not only will their health be replenished, but any ships you destroyed in the spawn that defeated you will be replaced. You have to re face the spawn, in its entirety, that killed you.
In Group, you cannot respawn until your group is out of combat, meaning you cannot die, and rush back into the fight again. Either your group has to defeat them on their own, get wiped, and thus face the spawn all over again, like the solo option, or else spend the time and effort to revive you, protect you from the NPCs killing you while you're still weak, and heal you. Also, you're group, at that point, has lost the "Not Dieing Bonus", unless they wipe and choose to restart that portion of the instance.
The point is to remove the death zerg, increase the difficulty (or potential difficulty), add a reason to not die, and NOT add any excessive time sink related death penalties while doing so. I think that this accomplishes this- the adjustments and additions to NPCs needs more fleshing out, but lacking full insight on how things are programmed in the game, I can only offer some suggestions in that ragard that will hopefully lead Devs on the right path, so to speak.
As for loot and XP exploitation, that currently exists in the game for missions, however, its more efficient, and would still be so, to farm fleet actions for loot and XP, than it would be to farm missions.
As for potential for griefing in PvP- I added the respawn option that replaces the exit to sector map. Was actually in the original idea but forgot to place it in there.
Also added the Scalable Rewards for Difficulty as a "Duh" thing that I overlooked.
I do not cater to people who cannot/do not read.
the combat slider (for level of challange) I hear they are looking into it. While I think combat is to easy atm, the combat slider is going to open pandoras box. I think they need to wait a bit till they have the time to deal with it. (month-2-4 months maybe?) I know many say "I just want the challange" but as soon as combat is ramped up (raise your hand if you think I'm wrong) those same people will soon say "i want better rewards, I'm working harder. And yas, I'm a better player so I deserve it". Not a can of worms worth opening IMHO, at least not yet.
You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Excellent suggestions, most especially the derelict ship idea. This angry gorilla is pacified.
/support
I'm still of the mind of if you need a harsher DP of any type you have motivation issues. If you need pain to influence you to play better there is a problem. On the other hand, you could ask a loved one to stand behind you and hit you with a cattle prod or a taser every time you die. Now THAT is a death penalty!
That being said, the thread title implied (to me at least) that pie would somehow be a part of the compromise. I would like some pie while I wait for everyone else in the fleet action to wipe, or for some kindly science geek...er, I mean science captain to rez me.
In all seriousness though, I like the derelict ship idea.
I also think Cryptic went with the soft Death Penalty idea because of the exceptionally large number of older gamers and people who haven't played MMO's before. They may *want* it to be easier and more casual. Still, further down the road when those people that had never played an MMO before turn into grizzled jaded veterans like the rest of us :P then even they will see the fun in a new challenge, and hopefully, this gets revisited then.
Lets make a "LIVE BONUS" then, as with my keeping it as simple as possible (so i can understand it) way of thinking. Again I say just add a 5 bonus badges (number so low its not going to take hours of grinding to make up for it) for living from start to finish of fleet battle or quest. that way the zergs can still grind the same thing if they want, and the people who try "harder" get a small reward that wont tip the game in there favor any way.
or even easier, 1badge for no deth in 10 battles, 2 badges for next 20, 3 badges for next 40, etc.. make it build but also make it harder and harder. so the hardcore can have goals!
wait a sec ( been saying badges, is it merits? opps...
Did either of you read the original post? I'm of the mind you did not based off the response. Not reading because you don't have time, are not interested, or because you dislike me is one thing. But responding to it without actually having read it is another thing all together- a whole new level of ennui and rudeness.
While I do not agree on getting rid of ramming speed, I do think it should have stipulations that "nerf" it, so to speak. Set it up so that you can only use it at a certain hull percentage, then you charge towards your target, ram them, deal damage, and continue drifting as a derelict. It should be a last-ditch effort to finish your opponent when you know you're going to get "derelict-ed."
Your points on PvP and team play are also very nice and I do hope the devs take a look at this and consider your proposals.
(I'm not going to touch the difficulty slider issue, but I do think the NPCs could be a touch "smarter")
I cannot take credit for the Derelict Ship Idea, that was Kalthios's brainstorm. However, I think I've included the parts of it and changed it ever so slightly so as to appeal to both crowds. On the one hand, death zerg is a reduced or eliminated option. On the other hand, there are no time draining death penalties.
My apologies. I thought I had formatted it in a way to be readable. Any suggestions to improve even this?
If you can, use a serif font like Georgia, it's much easier on the eyes than sans-serif like Arial.
Good point. Done.
calling it a new name doesnt change that its a penlty for Losing (death- just a name for losing a battle in this game) the NO DP penelty is just that, no penelty, no sitting waiting for a reapair, no waiting ot enter combat (besides the 15 seconds it is now).
Sorry I read your entire thing, and agreed with it, liked the ideas, ans yes even shot a few of my own in. the responce you replied to was in responce not to your original post (I did that earlier) but to the "Cryptic has said there will be NO CHANGE in the current DP" If its true, i mentioned that maybe there should be a bonus for liveing then, since they said nothing was going to change about dying.
I still like your ideas (or your layout of others ideas as you stated with the Derelict Ship thing). And still respect the ideas and your well thought out post. But I did (mildy) take offence to you deciding I didnt read them (good save by saying "based off"). Dont worry i still like the ideas and am already over the mild offence (it is afterall the internet, we all have opinions we want everybody to hear!). Never been that good with words, spell horrible, and am not an english major (reading this I'm sure most will think Im not even at 1st grade level).
keep up the good fight, I think all or some of your ideas will make the game better, if they get heard.
-edit- err cake on face, I did read it all and did catch the HONOR thing but did miss the "merit" thing (both right besides each other no less), so you where right (somewaht) i did read it all, just didnt comprehend it all. The perils of reading to many posts, the goods ones stil get power read and I did miss that. SO good sire, you where right i was wrong. And I again say, keep going with this idea.
Ah well, right then. Apologies. Though I did suggest a bonus for not dieing.
And I realise that Cryptic seems to be adamantly against the DP, but, that is always subject to change, like everything in MMOs, and I'd like these ideas to be refined into something that can be agreeable to all.
Now then, down to brass tacks-
These suggestions are not significantly worse than the current 15 second wait (at least in PvE). The caveat is the reformation of the spawn group, which is the key point so as to neutralise death zerg.
In groups, the wait may be longer, as you hope your group manages to defeat the spawn without you (one clarification, in case anyone thinks otherwise- while a derelict, you would still get xp from kills, like you do now when you die and have not respawned yet), or hope someone manages to sling a revive your way. Regardless, this is MUCH LESS deplorable than suffering a deubuff that expires in 5-10 minutes, or a permanent debuff that can only be removed by going to the nearest starbase/Sol.
At higher levels, when fights generally take longer (and thus your wait could potentially be longer), you are given a self revive, and everyone, regardless of ship type or BO powers, has a weak revive they can use (albeit, on a long cooldown, so don't over do it).
Worst case scenario- someone in your group is the last one alive and decides to be an TRIBBLE and just tank the last remaining NPC keeping you all from respawning. That is why there's the option to self destruct and re appear outside the instance. In any case, if you have someone doing that, you're probably better starting over with a different group.
Heh. Sorry if that was confusing- I included Honor and Merit, because Honor is supposed to be the KDF equivalent of merit, and I wrote this with both sides in mind when the KDF actually gets some PvE content.
as for the derelict ships i agree 100%
in a lot of cases it actually 'lowers' the current DP because you can be revived right there, no need to fly all the way back in!
and imo it meshes with the game too, because space combat would then be more similar to ground combat! (why can you revive on the ground, but not in space?)
and as for death zerging, i don't see why people see fixing this as a DP. imo, the current system is broken and being able to die over and over again as a tactic is an exploit
fixing an exploit isn't rasing or creating a DP, it's simply fixing the game
As for something constructive:
Instead of a respawn ability, perhaps at a later level every player would get a passive skill that restores their ship as a self revive ( the amount of time it would take would be based on the amount of crew members you have, similar to how you regenerate your hull integrity based upon your crew).
EDIT: ^ ^ ^ ^ ^THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Um, less text?
I read the whole thing looking for where the pie fit in. I'm still desperately in need of pie.
I jest. I didn't mind it. A wall of text that's presented well is still an engaging read. A wall of QQ is worthless. You don't need to change anything. I wish more criticism was formatted this way, you know, with an actual solution. Good on ya.
It'd still be better with pie though.
:cool:
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks in this game. if you want time sinks then there are plenty of other games that offer lots of them. a recent one is aion. it's 90% unnecessary time sinks and content gaps and RNG with high rates of failure. perfect game for those wanting more time sinks. and you can fly in it for two minutes at a time.
i like the game the way it is. my ship repairs at a decent rate both in and out of combat, i don't need anyone else telling me to try harder because i already play as well as i can and am able to try new strategies without wasting TRIBBLE amounts of time if they fail.
if you want a time sink then simulate one by going afk for 5-15 everytime you die. if you need this timesink imposed on everyone else then again, go play aion or eve or potbs.
basically, he proposes if you die you are cast adrift as a derelict and have to make a choice about abandoning your mission or group, waiting for everyone to wipe so you can all rez, or waiting for your group to bash face so someone can repair your hull and heal your crew and get you under way under your own steam again. There was lots of conditional stuff for people to haggle over, but the basic gist of it was a more traditional (but not overly harsh DP) system like something in, say WoW if you've ever played it. You can rez at the graveyard and run back into the instance like a TRIBBLE. The group will have killed or been killed by then, and you'll miss out on the loot. too bad so sad. Or you can wait till your group wins or wipes and get rezzed by a kindly healer, or rez at the graveyard together and go tackle it again from where you left off.
I'm ashamed to admit, I only latched onto the thread because of the promise of pie, however, the OP is actually well written if not a little on the wordy side, so pie be damned, this deserves every chance at main page discussion it can get.
i've already seen him post this in other threads and i am still against it.
there's no need for unnecessary time sinks.
although i'm not totally against waiting for the encounter to be over(PC ships out of combat)/ all player wiped before being able to respawn.
I wouldn't call it a timesink, really. Making me run around systems looking for tetryon particles and alien artifacts so I can upgrade mk II equipment I have zero use for anymore is a timesink. Having to drift as a derlict because I was dumb and figured my little escort could tangle with those 4 Vo'Quv's is merely time to reflect on my tactical choices.
Or I could bake a pie. Mmmm. Pie.
There are no unnecessary time sinks. The choice is yours.
If you're solo, you can choose to respawn, like it currently is in the game, with the caveat that the spawn group that killed you will be fully restored, OR you can choose to respawn in the sector map, resetting the instance but letting you pick up were you left off in the mission, much like if you had gotten disconnected.
The latter option also resets your death tally, so you're still eligible for the "not dieing bonus", provided you have not died on other parts of the mission. Obviously, if you're solo, there is no one to revive you, so that is not an option until later, when you get a self revive power (that is on a long cool down).
The mechanic is changed when you group in that you can wait for one of your group mates to revive you, or wait till the group is out of combat to respawn- a necessary thing to deny death zerging when in groups.
This proposal is different, albeit possibly only slightly, from anything else I have posted in other threads. Things changed after taking into account various inputs.