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SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
will there be any issues/repricusions with using g15 keyboards hotkey/binds/macro's ?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I assume what you're wondering is if Cryptic will see a macro-capable keyboard like the G15 , pull a Blizzard Entertainment, and yell "Hacker!!!" and ban your account, and sue your grandmother, and call the president on you, and make SWAT teams storm your house and steal your PC, and freeze your bank account and confiscate your life savings, and kill your dog, and deport you to some other country.

    Fortunately, the answer is probably no.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    7-0F-9 wrote:
    will there be any issues/repricusions with using g15 keyboard hotkey/binds ?

    Anything you do for input on your end of the client to server connection (on your PC) is going to be your business and your business alone. Macros, scripts, whatever, it's your PC, you do with it what you want. On that note, I use a G19 keyboard, left-hand controllers like the N52, and a G9x mouse. I've used G15 keyboards in the past too.

    With that said...

    Cryptic might have problem with unattended gameplay (ie: botting) since this is usually done by "gold farmers". In terms of STO, since there is an Auction House (Exchange), it would be Energy Credit Farmer. Also, with unattended gameplay, you pretty much leave your account logged in all the time even when you're not playing, so that's a drain on their network bandwidth and processing power. STO is designed to be played, after all, not camped at 24/7.

    And on that note...

    Hacking anything on the client would be seriously frowned upon as well, and could most likely lead to account bans or even lawsuits.

    So...

    Anything you do on your end for how you handle your own input is up to you so long as you're not botting or causing issues for others or the servers with your customized input. I'm sure that would be close to what Cryptic devs would echo, although I don't know if they have firm policies in place just yet regarding botting and such.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I have an older G15 the one with the flip screen and black and white and I am having no issues. i am surpised to see the game work well with it be able to see my stats on the screen. Man I love the G15. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    so i can use a g15/script to ease my "AT KEYBOARD" gameplay , and relive my fingers of whacking the keys continualy
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    7-0F-9 wrote:
    is there any 100% clarification from "dev"/"moderator" ? on this matter plz ?

    Do you need clarification to use a certain browser when using someone else's website? No. Why should you need one from Cryptic to use whatever keyboard with their game?

    It's your PC.

    But I have a feeling that devs won't be able to post an official announcement on this without first a more defined policy in place after launch.

    You edited your post, so I'll edit mine to reply...
    7-0F-9 wrote:
    so i can use a g15/script to ease my "AT KEYBOARD" gameplay , and relive my fingers of whacking the keys continualy

    I don't see why not. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    thank you for the replys
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Our policy is exactly what you would think it is: you can use whatever keyboard you want. Any form of automation of gameplay is grounds for a ban, and "I thought this macro would be okay" won't hold up as an excuse. Basically if you are using macros to do anything more complex than our existing /bind system already does for you, you are probably doing something you shouldn't. If you have to ask the question "Will I get banned for this?" the answer is almost always "Yes". As for if we will ever ban someone simply because they have sneezed near a G15, no.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    Our policy is exactly what you would think it is: you can use whatever keyboard you want. Any form of automation of gameplay is grounds for a ban, and "I thought this macro would be okay" won't hold up as an excuse. Basically if you are using macros to do anything more complex than our existing /bind system already does for you, you are probably doing something you shouldn't. If you have to ask the question "Will I get banned for this?" the answer is almost always "Yes". As for if we will ever ban someone simply because they have sneezed near a G15, no.

    This includes the popular spacebar macros? If it does, you might let the folks know on the massive and many auto-fire threads. Better to warn in beta than ban in live.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    Basically if you are using macros to do anything more complex than our existing /bind system already does for you, you are probably doing something you shouldn't. If you have to ask the question "Will I get banned for this?" the answer is almost always "Yes".

    Hmmm.

    What's the difference between rapidly pressing the spacebar to fire and having a script remap our spacebar key to repeat the space keystroke when held down? Or were you talking about macros to do automated gameplay like botting? We can certainly all agree botting is wrong.

    As for macros to do annoying/repetitive tasks, you know some gamepads alreayd have "rapid fire" buttons, etc. And the Logitech G13, G15, G19, G110 and other macro keyboards (ie: Razer, etc.) can do quite complicated macros beyond what the /bind command can do.

    Coderanger, where do you draw the line?
    smackphat wrote: »
    This includes the popular spacebar macros? If it does, you might let the folks know on the massive and many auto-fire threads. Better to warn in beta than ban in live.

    Indeed. A warn for abuse is better. Sounds very open-ended the way Coderanger defined it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    Our policy is exactly what you would think it is: you can use whatever keyboard you want. Any form of automation of gameplay is grounds for a ban, and "I thought this macro would be okay" won't hold up as an excuse. Basically if you are using macros to do anything more complex than our existing /bind system already does for you, you are probably doing something you shouldn't. If you have to ask the question "Will I get banned for this?" the answer is almost always "Yes". As for if we will ever ban someone simply because they have sneezed near a G15, no.

    Actually, I think that's where some of us are getting a little confused. Obviously a macro that allows someone to wander off and make lunch while their toon sits beside a PvP spawn point crouching, sniper shotting and throwing grenades is A Very Bad Thing, but what about turning Fire All Weapons into a toggle or a maintain via a G15? I'm not entirely sure whether this can be done as easily as it can be in CO with the block power, for example.

    I was definitely complaining about the strain on my wrist after my first few play sessions, so finding some way to reduce this is rather high on my list of concerns right now, but I also don't want to be doing anything that could run the risk of me getting dematerialised either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    We have to leave it open ended because any set of specific rules would have to be far too conservative or there will huge loopholes (as I'm sure you already know). If something like rapidfire ends up giving you an advantage in-game such that we (a developer) end up having to look into it, you are probably not going to like the results. Like I said, by virtue of you asking "Can I do this?", you should already know the answer is "No".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Fair, but why can't we get a dev response in the many many autofire threads?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Regardless of what Coderanger states, the bottom line is that it's our PC with our input and Cryptic has no way of determining whether or not we're using a macro keyboard function or inputting manually. What they can determine is if it is abused for things like botting or credit farming by monitoring behavior over time.

    To my knowledge, Cryptic doesn't run something like nProtect, GameGuard, Sophos, etc., so the client certainly isn't spying on you nor acting like a rootkit.
    coderanger wrote:
    We have to leave it open ended because any set of specific rules would have to be far too conservative or there will huge loopholes (as I'm sure you already know). If something like rapidfire ends up giving you an advantage in-game such that we (a developer) end up having to look into it, you are probably not going to like the results. Like I said, by virtue of you asking "Can I do this?", you should already know the answer is "No".

    Still, a clear definition in policies is need, Coderanger. Many of us want to play, enjoy STO, and use our scripts/macros to improve our gameplay experience while still being an honest, paying customer. For us who paid lifetimes, etc., we don't want some silly, never-mentioned silent policy affecting our accounts. Thanks. :)

    Edit: on that note, wording in a policy such as "usage intended to detract gameplay experience of others" or "unattended gameplay" are fairly vague enough to cover most loopholes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I don't care if you use a G15, AutoIt, a VNC script, etc etc, the results are what matter. Proceed at your own risk.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    I don't care if you use a G15, AutoIt, a VNC script, etc etc, the results are what matter. Proceed at your own risk.

    Ah, ok, now that's getting better to understand. :)

    If we use our own macros and scripts to enjoy the game, not exploit it or others, and do so in a reasonable and respectable manner, we're probably safe from account bans and such, correct?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I'm new to MMOs, and I have a G15. So, far, I only use it with it's screen to see who's speaking in Vent, that's about it. Well, I think my CPU heatsink is dieing so I can also use the screen to monitor my core's temp while in game. If anything it hurts my play because it makes me take my eyes off the screen.

    I would not have thought of macros as being a cheat, could make a more efficient player, but wouldn't have thought it considered cheating, good to know....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Beaker2009 wrote: »
    I'm new to MMOs, and I have a G15. So, far, I only use it with it's screen to see who's speaking in Vent, that's about it. Well, I think my CPU heatsink is dieing so I can also use the screen to monitor my core's temp while in game. If anything it hurts my play because it makes me take my eyes off the screen.

    I would not have thought of macros as being a cheat, could make a more efficient player, but wouldn't have thought it considered cheating, good to know....

    It's probably going to depend on how you use the macro functionality. It wouldn't be "cheating" if you're using it for honest gameplay...
    coderanger wrote:
    I don't care if you use a G15, AutoIt, a VNC script, etc etc, the results are what matter. Proceed at your own risk.

    ...at least that's the drift I'm getting so far.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    smackphat wrote: »
    This includes the popular spacebar macros? If it does, you might let the folks know on the massive and many auto-fire threads. Better to warn in beta than ban in live.

    Yeah I already see a lot of people using their own keyboard macros to make auto-fire on their end. I can already hear people saying "since Cryptic can't give us auto-fire we will give it to ourselves on our own". So, the post of the cryptic rep here then means that even keyboard macros are not allowed. IF they will trace one of the players doing that they will ban that player. BUT, I don't think they will really police all these tens of thousands of players for space bar macro. If they will and ban everyone who uses space bar macro they may lose a lot of players. So comparing the losses to the innocent space bar macro, losses may overwhelm the reason behind the ban.

    I am one of those few who finds that controlling your ship is more fun than just fly it and let it do everything in your stead. I know for sure that I will get bored soon if I will use macros. I just know myself. Even though in a rush of battle my keyboard sometimes start to squeel under pressure its still more fun to let your own fingers do the job than let your keyboard keys be pressed by some macro. You get used to controlling your weapons. All there is just a space bar and Ctrl key. Its not that much of an effort. People jsut got spoiled and don't want to accept that some other fun game won't have an auto-battle features for them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    So, the post of the cryptic rep here then means that even keyboard macros are not allowed. IF they will trace one of the players doing that they will ban that player.

    False.

    Coderanger did not state anything of the sort. Coderanger also didn't state it was safe or accepted either. They're being very open-ended on this matter which is very bad. We need something a little more concrete such as "we will ban you for..." and "we won't ban you for...". Even terms like "reasonable gameplay" and "exploiting other players and/or the server" would help cement this.
    BUT, I don't think they will really police all these tens of thousands of players for space bar macro. If they will and ban everyone who uses space bar macro they may lose a lot of players. So comparing the losses to the innocent space bar macro, losses may overwhelm the reason behind the ban.

    I agree. I have a feeling that part of their being vague is to avoid creating a situation where either people abuse macros/scripts because they know Cryptic will be lax on it, or they lose subscribers for those who want to play and be honest but still use macros/scripts to help their gameplay.

    Problem is, it's already a situation and we need something more precise before release.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    I don't care if you use a G15, AutoIt, a VNC script, etc etc, the results are what matter. Proceed at your own risk.

    So Coderanger, does this mean...

    "I don't care what you use for macros/scripts, we'll ban you if we catch you. Proceed at your own risk."

    or...

    "I don't care what you use for macros/scripts, just don't cheat/exploit/cause issues. Proceed at your own risk."

    ?? :confused: ??
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Policy says:
    While Playing Star Trek Online You May Not:
    Utilize third-party programs to automate unattended game-play
    http://www.startrekonline.com/support/policies/behavior

    An autofire macro obviously still needs us behind the pc to navigate our ship, otherwise it would be quite useless. So anyway no violation since you aren't automating anything for unattended gameplay...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I guess I just don't understand why the devs are trying to heavy handidly force their players to breka their wrists. If the fire time is not going to be signifigantly raise there will be many of us who simply cannot play. There is a HUGE difference between rapid fire cheating/botting, and simply making it so you press less buttons.

    Why do you keep trying to force us to play how we as a large group do not wish to? We don't want to click fire every other second in space or on the ground. It's not just annoying, it hurts the fingers and wrists.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Schneemann wrote: »
    Policy says:

    http://www.startrekonline.com/support/policies/behavior

    An autofire macro obviously still needs us behind the pc to navigate our ship, otherwise it would be quite useless. So anyway no violation since you aren't automating anything for unattended gameplay...

    Very true. They only have a policy on unattended gameplay (ie: not at your PC), which is something pretty much ever MMO developer has. That's a given.

    But with coderanger's posts, this opened it up to some gray areas I don't like.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Nightsbane wrote: »
    I guess I just don't understand why the devs are trying to heavy handidly force their players to breka their wrists. If the fire time is not going to be signifigantly raise there will be many of us who simply cannot play. There is a HUGE difference between rapid fire cheating/botting, and simply making it so you press less buttons.

    Why do you keep trying to force us to play how we as a large group do not wish to? We don't want to click fire every other second in space or on the ground. It's not just annoying, it hurts the fingers and wrists.

    I wouldn't be that extreme about it (as there are ways to fight effectively without spamming energy weapons).

    But I do feel uncomfortable with how this has been responded to by Cryptic, even if it wasn't stated in black or white either way. I hope Coderanger was just trying to give us a quick reply and not specifically tell us that using macros/scripts puts our accounts in jeopardy. Right now, the posts could be taken either way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Not on the topic of breaching policy/'breaking the rules' blah blah blah...:)

    I was hoping someone could tell me if they have had any success linking the "fire all weapons" command to a hotkey on their G15. I haven't explored the option yet but will be looking into it once Friday rolls around since the incessant clicking on my end is a bit annoying :P !!

    Cheers,
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    We have to leave it open ended because any set of specific rules would have to be far too conservative or there will huge loopholes (as I'm sure you already know). If something like rapidfire ends up giving you an advantage in-game such that we (a developer) end up having to look into it, you are probably not going to like the results. Like I said, by virtue of you asking "Can I do this?", you should already know the answer is "No".

    So if i DON'T ask then the answer is YES. awesome! :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Kray_Vix wrote:
    I was hoping someone could tell me if they have had any success linking the "fire all weapons" command to a hotkey on their G15. I haven't explored the option yet but will be looking into it once Friday rolls around since the incessant clicking on my end is a bit annoying :P !!

    Sure, you can just create a G15 macro to trigger both keys you have bound to wire torps and fire energy weapons. Use the macro feature, record for example Shift + Space, a short pause in miliseconds, and Space.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    coderanger wrote:
    Our policy is exactly what you would think it is: you can use whatever keyboard you want. Any form of automation of gameplay is grounds for a ban, and "I thought this macro would be okay" won't hold up as an excuse. Basically if you are using macros to do anything more complex than our existing /bind system already does for you, you are probably doing something you shouldn't. If you have to ask the question "Will I get banned for this?" the answer is almost always "Yes". As for if we will ever ban someone simply because they have sneezed near a G15, no.

    I appreciate the straight talk contained in this message and thank you for not beating around the bush with a lot of flowery language.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I wouldn't be that extreme about it (as there are ways to fight effectively without spamming energy weapons).

    But I do feel uncomfortable with how this has been responded to by Cryptic, even if it wasn't stated in black or white either way. I hope Coderanger was just trying to give us a quick reply and not specifically tell us that using macros/scripts puts our accounts in jeopardy. Right now, the posts could be taken either way.

    He seems pretty clear to me. Use their system or be banned.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    branix wrote: »
    I appreciate the straight talk contained in this message and thank you for not beating around the bush with a lot of flowery language.

    I don't know. I'd consider the comment of sneezing near a G15 keyboard to be "flowery" language. It's vague. Coderanger didn't make it crystal clear what their policy is. Just telling us common sense.
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