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I have idea addressing pvp, dill sink and player gap

vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
I have red many commends by people in the past, who, when it comes to pvp say that they want "basic generic ships" or "premade" ships for everyone that actually work and are fun to play with, and i could definitely see some of the positives, there are some negatives too, since STO is a MMO game and turning it into a shooter game might not be the most constructive way to fix this problem, however yesterday i had an inspiration from a youtuber,i think it may be possible to actualize such idea with as little development time as possible, keep all the positives of it and non of the negatives.

So somebody shared in ker'rat a link to "bret's gaming channel" on youtube so i decided to check what he is up to and very recently he uploaded a video called "Wasted Potential: How to Fix STO's PvP Mode", he was going through some of the known problems and offering some solutions, & so on & so on, till the end of the video, where what he suggested inspired some crazy idea of my own, which to be honest, ill feel bad for not sharing, even it if is totally ignored, i have to share this thing, merely discussing it is fun enough.

In the end of his video he said he played a game where he was allowed a "trial of the things before you buy them", then he said cryptic could do the same with ships, and then offered to create some premade ships ready for pvp for players who cannot successfully pvp with their own.


So my first thought was - okey we had a good disagreement on how to build a pvp ship some time ago, we took some opposite approaches on how that ship should be done, wouldn't i be able to offer better premade ships for those want to use them ? Ofcourse this may be just personal flavours but it really kickstarted my own idea.

What if the PvP community lends ready-for-pvp-ships for those who for some reason do not have the capacity to make one and then those who use them, get to rate the build or leave a commend on how they feel about it ?

The technicallities about how this can be done have been developing inside my head, the general idea is to make all people happy about it, all sides satisfied with what they are getting so ill try to list them as expressively and systematically as possible.

1. Lending is for unrefined dilithium, the amount is set by the player, then is doubled, half goes for the lender and half is destroyed. You can lend for cheap or symbolic prices, or if you have something super/crazy good, you may ask for more.
2. When you list one of your ships for pvp-lending, all items, and the ship itself are locked and unusable for you, until the ship is unlisted from lending.
3. When you list one of your ships for lending you have to appoint one of your bridge officers to captain it, this bridge officer will "share all your traits, boffs/doffs, assignments" and *ENDEVOUR PROGRESS* together/bound with the ship. They are firmly fixed and cannot be changed or altered by the renter. Its a complete package/setup so when you rent it, you don't have to worry that you are lacking something.
4. Only same career bridge officers are eligible for appointment (this is to save dev resources, actually i don't know how much it helps). So when someone rents your ship/setup he also gets your captain career while using it.
5. Listing works as following: while in space, you have option, similar to "swap ships" to list for lending, when you click it, it will ask you to assign one of your bridges as captain to the ship, you click ok. The game will save the complete setup (all traits/doffs/boffs/endevour progress/bridge assignments) and ask you to choose another ship in order to continue playing. When you get on your other ship, the listing is complete.
6. Ships can be rented from space docks NPCs, the display/list of ships must be helpful to the player scrolling through the offers available, they must have ratings(by players who used them), short comments, and how many times that setup have been hired. This information is needed to filter the bad builds from the good ones.
7. A pvp-ship setup offer is limited on how much can be rented at the same time, the limit should be around 10x, so if 10 people are currently using it, it can't be rented to more.
8. Ships floating around the spacedocks or in pvp match that are rented must be signified in the ship name or in other way for everyone to see or know that this ship is not exactly yours. You can showoff with your own ship when you complete one.
9. Renting lasts for 1hour, if your pvp que starts at the 59th minute, the game will wait for you to finish your pvp match.
10. You may beam up near the spacedock from where you rented the ship, to set your keybinds/skillbars but since the ship is only rented for pvp, you *cannot warp out* or warp to quest, you cannot que for TFO's, or PvE events with it neither. You can only que with your PvP rented ship for pvp games.
11. You can inspect the ship, the boffs, the doffs, the traits, the assignments but you cannot change anything on it except arranging your skillbars.


It will take too long for this post to also explain how i came to these points, so lets think and analyze them, i don't claim that the idea can't be improved or changed so if you have anything to add or ask how i came to these points lets discuss.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    Fixing PvP never needed to be complicated.

    Its simple we have SLots already for Shuttles... and starships. All they had to do long ago was add a PvP mode ship doll. It would just be a copy of whatever your current ship was.... only difference being the only gear slottable on that ship would be "pvp" gear. The PvP ship doll would auto activate when you enter a PvP zone... they could then add a PvP social zone where people could setup their ships, and where vendors (in space) like the old Borg gear map where the vendors where ships in space. With a small station to beam down to for ground gear.

    While the PvP ship doll is active... you would have a more limited number of trait slots. Perhaps 2-3 Ship traits, 4-5 space/ground traits, and 2-3 reputation traits.

    That would solve everything there is to solve about PvP... and give cryptic something else to sell people, as well as giving them Esport potential. (not even joking at its core stripped down to basic non set gear and limiting the number of broken trait selection... this game has potential to have an audience)

    If you want an example of this working just go look at Guild Wars 2 PvP mode. (not open world PvP) It is perfect no... but the idea is what I'm talking about. Sperate PvP and PvE.

    Had Cryptic spent just a little bit of time doing that 7 or 8 years ago STO would be a thriving Esport game right now.

    PvP wise stripping everything down to the basics... makes buff bars 1/4 the size, and removing the potential to have multiple global cool down items/traits ect. We would be back to STO PvP ala 2012-2013 when buff counting on individuals and even entire teams ect was a thing. Timing attacks between healers big power heal cycles... and timing your own cross healing for the other sides alpha strikes, using subnukes when you are most likely to strip long duration captain skill ect. This game used to have TONS of depth. Now it has more and less all at the same time.
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    I see what you say, but how do you know the new pvp gear will be more balanced ? Don't you think the players will eventually figure something to abuse and take advantage of ? By the end of the day, you have the very same problem you were trying to fix to begin with, but now you have also split the game into 2 games which to be honest is an annoyance and feels anti-mmo.

    The current state of pvp desires very little in terms of balancing, actually apart from the stealth spam problem and this new starship trait that could potentially result in super burst damage (could, i don't know that for sure) there is very little to fix, surprisingly or by incident things are pretty balanced and reasonable. The problem is the actual gap and abyss of knowledge, items, and endevours PvPers and non PvPers have, the gap is so big that a single one of these old ker'rat whales can cut through 10non's like butter and laugh about it.

    I think the only reasonable way to close this gap, is if these players can receive for a short time a premade ship, made by those who know how to make one. They can also inspect the ship and learn a thing or 2 from it.

    There are also certain perks of using another man's ship like:
    1. You are the judge of that ship, if you lose too much, that is obviously because whoever made that TRIBBLE doesn't know a thing.
    2. Its much easier to play with another man's ship, if you win you get the credit, if you lose he gets the credit.
    3. I think this will completely remove pvp anxiety some people feel, when its not your own ship, you are not so emotionally attached to winning or losing.

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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,396 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    Here's why PvP in this type of game NEVER works.

    The backend is too complex.
    Too many skills.
    Too many ways to 'Prestige' levels; this alone is a PvP killer in ANY game, especially with our Endeavour system!
    Too much equipment.
    Etc.
    Etc.

    The game does not like having to 'switch out' to using a 'doll'. You only need to play any episode that has you play as something or someone else to see this. Whilst it appears 'simple' to you to have a 'doll', it wreaks havoc with the game, and you can't really have a doll for PvP without detaching a player's Endeavour points, which is just opening the doors further for breaking the game.

    Lending is a novel concept, but it should be done for nothing. There should be no 'monetary' involvement, not even unrefined Dil, and it should be Cryptic's OWN layouts, NEVER a player's. Letting players 'lend' their designs/layouts is going to be nothing but a storm of sewerage as players bicker about 'not being picked/'X' is ruining the market because they have all the Dil, etc. etc.'

    A simple fix comes in a couple of lines. If you have to spend 30 minutes explaining it, it's not simple. There is just too much going on in STO's backend to make this work. And it certainly won't fix the the Dil economy, especially if one person's 'cookie-cutter' design is used, that player will have too much control of it.
    Post edited by leemwatson on
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,301 Arc User
    no. just no. The Dev team has finite resources. to not do or delay new content for 6 months to a year-year and a half (yes it would take that long MINIMUM) to fix PvP to accommodate .5% of the player base is simply a poor business decision.
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
    We Need BERETS in the tailor
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    I have no idea how you come with these numbers, but the "5%" don't need any renting, its the 95% that will benefit from this.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    No one PvPs !
    Great argument against.... no one PvPs cause Cryptic hasn't spent a dime on PvP in 10 years.

    I would suggest this... in most 10 year old MMOs PvP accounts for 25% of the player base. So if we stipulate that only 0.5% of STO players PvP. Then perhaps Cryptic only has ONE path to growth. And it isn't doing what they have been doing. :)
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,233 Community Moderator
    vanhyo wrote: »
    I have no idea how you come with these numbers, but the "5%" don't need any renting, its the 95% that will benefit from this.

    The majority of the playerbase is PvE though... how would that benefit them if they don't PvP?

    They already tried to revamp PvP when they introduced Competitive Rep. Went over about as well as a lead balloon.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    vanhyo wrote: »
    I see what you say, but how do you know the new pvp gear will be more balanced ? Don't you think the players will eventually figure something to abuse and take advantage of ? By the end of the day, you have the very same problem you were trying to fix to begin with, but now you have also split the game into 2 games which to be honest is an annoyance and feels anti-mmo.

    The current state of pvp desires very little in terms of balancing, actually apart from the stealth spam problem and this new starship trait that could potentially result in super burst damage (could, i don't know that for sure) there is very little to fix, surprisingly or by incident things are pretty balanced and reasonable. The problem is the actual gap and abyss of knowledge, items, and endevours PvPers and non PvPers have, the gap is so big that a single one of these old ker'rat whales can cut through 10non's like butter and laugh about it.

    I think the only reasonable way to close this gap, is if these players can receive for a short time a premade ship, made by those who know how to make one. They can also inspect the ship and learn a thing or 2 from it.

    There are also certain perks of using another man's ship like:
    1. You are the judge of that ship, if you lose too much, that is obviously because whoever made that TRIBBLE doesn't know a thing.
    2. Its much easier to play with another man's ship, if you win you get the credit, if you lose he gets the credit.
    3. I think this will completely remove pvp anxiety some people feel, when its not your own ship, you are not so emotionally attached to winning or losing.

    Again all you have to do is look at GW2.

    PvP gear should NOT include sets >.< Reputation/mission or otherwise. PvP gear should be MK X purple gear... The vendors should "sell" for free, any weapon type, and the 3 standard engines/shields/deflectors. No changing stats. They could easily add 9 deflectors, 3 of each type with different stats. Same for everything.

    On PvP maps... they turn off endeavor perks, they activate PvP Skill setups for space traits, ship traits ect... and they reduce the number that can be active. I would say 5 space traits, and 3 ship traits, and 3 reputation traits, and 3 BOFF slots would work well.

    That becomes a game that is pretty easy to balance. Sure some traits will still be over powered, but at least you'll have to choose to slot them. The game would return to a state where buffs would have timers, and 100% of players would not be at global cool down. I mean you could still slot a handful of good cool down things... but at a cost of not having room for other things. You could still slot a placate trait or two, but at the cost of survival or dps or sci effectiveness.

    Of course right now its a free for all and there are just too many setups that are so >>> to others that PvP has become same same. Then the issue becomes new players can't jump in, their builds are just not up to snuff. I was around in the early days of STO PvP... and we got flak all the time for blowing people up when gear was darn near = and things like ship traits and even reputation didn't exist. Skill will still lead to a lot of QQ... at this point in STOs life Skill also means knowing how to build for PvP, and getting a new player up to speed is both expensive and time consuming. I would love it if Cryptic just stripped a decade of PvE power creep completely out of PvP. Let me blow other players up and enjoy the moral superiority of knowing the only disadvantage they had was not being me. lmao ;) (half joking on that last line)
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    @rattler2

    If you could rent/try premium ship/setup (the full package) wouldn't you be curious to test it/see how it works ?
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    vanhyo wrote: »
    @rattler2

    If you could rent/try premium ship/setup (the full package) wouldn't you be curious to test it/see how it works ?

    What makes a build work is the human behind the keyboard. Giving people "premium" builds wouldn't help them understand how to play them.

    Also know every player plays differently. As a member of a PvP fleet with a bunch of VERY good players... I can tell you if they replicate my build they don't love it, and if I replicate theirs its the same. Sure we do use some common bits and pieces, but they are setup to our playstyles.

    STO like most complicated games is not as simple as X + Y + Z = Bad***.

    Cryptic tried a version of this when they make players hope in ships for missions... granted Cryptics setups where in most peoples minds terrible even at the time (and they aged very badly). All it did was annoy people, and I can't imagine anyone paying for even a good version of that.

    Luckily in STO 95% of gear worth running can be ground out in an afternoon assuming you have Reputation/Fleet access to things already. The only things people can't try out are consoles and space traits from ships... and lets be honest Cryptic isn't ever going to do that. A good chunk of sales comes from people thinking something is going to be fantastic for some build they have in their heads. If they figured out it wasn't why would they buy. lol (and to be fair people CAN test things from gamble boxes on the test server currently)
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    vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,896 Arc User
    Even if @nixie50's numbers are incorrect the sentiment is.
    1. fact the KDF was pure PvP at launch. in order to make it even semi -viable as a faction Cryptic had to add PVE content because the players were not rolling KDF toons.. they did not want to PVP.
    2. as @rattler2 already stated, they tried revamping PvP and it failed and in addition to what Rattler mentioned, there were at least 2 re balances that I recall and they were VERY unpopular.
    3. Nixie hit it again in her post, the developers do not have the resources to devote to an in depth attempt to re-balance PvP, and even if they did, the database would literally double in size. you think lag is bad now???

    TBH, id you want PvP, go play EVE.. no one here will miss the PvP crowd in STO, because there are not that many of you. if Cryptic wants to expand to accommodate the player base, their time is far better spent looking into making RP better. at least the other players would benefit from that by improvement in the tailor.
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    @husanakx, well yeah its kinda in the game already, you "borrow" few ships in the old missions.

    Also the idea i described already puts some serious limitation
    - can't warp out, can't do anything with it other than pvp que
    - 10x rents at a time max, some of the setups offered might not be always available for trial
    - non-pvpers are like pets in pvp matches, they are cut like paper and do not contribute for anything, so why not give them a boost ? Also its good advertisement so why not ?

    Another thing, being able to understand how thing work, have the resources and build the ship is 75%-85 of the job, the rest is pewpew and quickly learnable.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    vanhyo wrote: »
    @husanakx, well yeah its kinda in the game already, you "borrow" few ships in the old missions.

    Also the idea i described already puts some serious limitation
    - can't warp out, can't do anything with it other than pvp que
    - 10x rents at a time max, some of the setups offered might not be always available for trial
    - non-pvpers are like pets in pvp matches, they are cut like paper and do not contribute for anything, so why not give them a boost ? Also its good advertisement so why not ?

    Another thing, being able to understand how thing work, have the resources and build the ship is 75%-85 of the job, the rest is pewpew and quickly learnable.

    I think we greatly disagree on how much Build matters. 75-85% of the job is not accomplished by the build.

    I can tell you without a doubt... if people had a copy of my best torp build which I can top 600k most people would be lucky to pull 50k, same for my energy and sci builds, I can break 500k in them no issues but most people just won't. (unless they have already built a similar build themselves) That is PvE... Give them my PvP pimped out escort and a new player wouldn't even be able to keep anyone targeted as they zoom 30k past them.

    On any of my builds I have 3 or 4 skill/item rotations that if you don't follow drop the DPS. You want X Y and Z on cool down before you activate this or that. No amount of instruction is going to help you do well in a ready made build. I'm not suggesting you can't learn how to do use a top tier build... but the only way to learn it is to build it.

    Your assertion that all people need is a handout is wrong. Its like saying anyone that can play a bit of violin will turn into a First chair in the London Symphony if you rent them a Strat. (a little unfair STO isn't that hard) My point is simple.... in order to become a top tier player in STO you need to take the time to build. There is no way to sell people Top tier player status. I can only imagine how upset people would be at renting top tier builds only to realize they do even worse then they did in their own personal junker. (top tier builds... tend to sacrifice things like defense ect. and a new player is going to get rolled in those ships... again another analogy it would be like giving a kid that just got their drivers license the keys to a F1 car, it would end badly)
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,233 Community Moderator
    As others have mentioned, just giving someone a cookie cutter build doesn't mean anything. Its not just the build that matters, its the skill of the player. Honestly the best example of this kind of thing can be seen in FPS games like Call of Duty. You can give everyone the biggest, heaviest hitting gun in the game... and you're going to have results all over the map ranging from frickin' awesome high score to can't hit the broad side of a barn.

    The same is true in STO. You can give 50 people a top tier uber DPS build, and you're going to get 50 different results ranging from facemelting awesome to WTF does this button do?

    Build does not equal skill.
    vanhyo wrote: »
    If you could rent/try premium ship/setup (the full package) wouldn't you be curious to test it/see how it works ?

    Me personally? Not really. Would I like to test drive a ship? Maybe. Would I want it already outfitted with someone else's idea of the best build? No. Because odds are it will not fit my personal playstyle and make it feel clunky. The main advantage of STO is just how customizable things are. You can tailor just about everything to fit your personal playstyle. Having a build forced on you to say "Use this, you'll do better" doesn't always work.

    When I give build advice, I try to start with a well balanced setup that can be tweaked by the person I'm helping to better suit their playstyle. And pretty much all of that is stock abilities and consoles. I give a good foundation for them to build off of in a direction they feel comfortable with. I don't just give them a high performance build and expect them to know how to use it.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,565 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    Most players don't want to PVP, even if it was fixed. STO is a game that caters mostly to casual gamers who are fans of Trek, not hardcore space sim gamers.

    Given much more resources, STO could also try to cater to P2P players or hardcore tactical PVE gamers. Until that happens it makes good business sense to ignore PVP and put development resources into casual-friendly PVE content and Space Barbie.
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    orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    More people PvP than you think. It's kind of gated community in that you have to find them first.

    My main is in a fleet with a lot of them on console. The leader plays nothing but PvP.

    Trouble is what works in PvE (everything) doesn't necessarily work in PvP, so newbies roll in with their gilded XV everything and explode immediately, then they don't bother again.

    Not to mention the loadout tomfoolery we experience anyway.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    PvP will never be fair in a game that sells power.

    Yes, it really is that simple. And the sooner everyone learns to except it, the better. STO sells power, some people will pay more then others and those people will always have an advantage.

    STO is not a PvP game, sorry.. but it's just that simple. The only solution to avoid P2W is giving everyone in PvP the same default 'vanilla' ships. That makes things fair, but makes it so PvP cannot be monetized. They aren't going to put time and resources into something that can't be monetized.

    PvP cannot be fixed in in STO. I am sorry to sound harsh.. but you need to accept it and move on.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    PvP will never be fair in a game that sells power.

    Yes, it really is that simple. And the sooner everyone learns to except it, the better. STO sells power, some people will pay more then others and those people will always have an advantage.

    STO is not a PvP game, sorry.. but it's just that simple. The only solution to avoid P2W is giving everyone in PvP the same default 'vanilla' ships. That makes things fair, but makes it so PvP cannot be monetized. They aren't going to put time and resources into something that can't be monetized.

    PvP cannot be fixed in in STO. I am sorry to sound harsh.. but you need to accept it and move on.

    Oh all the PvPers in STO have either moved on or accepted what STO is long ago.

    Its not true that selling power is required in STO for PvP to be fair. They simply don't have the chops at this point in house to make the changes that would be required. Its something they should have done 10 years back, at this point its too late.

    There are plenty of games that have Fair and balanced PvP that do not sell power, while still selling tons of power on the PvE side. PvP can be monotonized with cosmetics. I know you say who is going to pay for PvP cosmetics. Its simple you let everyone fly their ships... but the Default PvP skin is stark white plain looking ugly. You don't let people change it from there unless they pay up. Same thing for weapons... you let people equip the 100% free PvP weapons of any type Phaser/Dis/Tet ect, but they all look like the base weapons. Then you sell visual enhancers... you take the standard lockbox weapon types and make a PvP mode only Weapon cosmetic for them. You want to sell a PvP cosmetic pack that includes 2-3 ship colour schemes and a few weapon colour cosmetics... you include in the ultimate pack a PvP only fireworks device. Next Pack you include a fireworks device that shoots a big thumbs down ect ect ect. Making money on fair PvP is actually easy and has been proven by other developers. The catch is having developers capable of coding a PvP game mode... Cryptic doesn't have those employees.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    husanakx wrote: »
    There are plenty of games that have Fair and balanced PvP that do not sell power, while still selling tons of power on the PvE side. PvP can be monotonized with cosmetics. I know you say who is going to pay for PvP cosmetics. Its simple you let everyone fly their ships... but the Default PvP skin is stark white plain looking ugly. You don't let people change it from there unless they pay up. Same thing for weapons... you let people equip the 100% free PvP weapons of any type Phaser/Dis/Tet ect, but they all look like the base weapons. Then you sell visual enhancers... you take the standard lockbox weapon types and make a PvP mode only Weapon cosmetic for them. You want to sell a PvP cosmetic pack that includes 2-3 ship colour schemes and a few weapon colour cosmetics... you include in the ultimate pack a PvP only fireworks device. Next Pack you include a fireworks device that shoots a big thumbs down ect ect ect. Making money on fair PvP is actually easy and has been proven by other developers. The catch is having developers capable of coding a PvP game mode... Cryptic doesn't have those employees.

    None of your ideas are bad, I just don't know how effective they would be. First, you have to remember that PvP'ers are already a very small subset of the player base. You would be marketing to those in the PvP community that are willing to pay for cosmetics, which again.. would be a subset within a subset. That is a very small market for potential sales.

    In the end, I admit, I don't know for sure that it wouldn't work. I just don't see there being enough of a sales market there to fuel the work that Cryptic would have to do in order to make PvP viable again.

    I am not trying to just put down any ideas, I understand that those in the PvP community want to revitalize their preferred game method, and ultimately, I wish you guys luck. Just know you're up against it with Cryptic.. they have made it very clear over the last few years what is most important to them, and it's aggressive and relentless monetization. None of us, PvP'ers or PvE'ers are getting anything unless Cryptic thinks it would make more money then it would cost to develop.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    how many MMOs are "thriving esports" look there's a ton of online PVP games out there, not every MMO needs to include it or cater to it, and sometimes when a MMO tries all that happens are no one is happy.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    husanakx wrote: »
    There are plenty of games that have Fair and balanced PvP that do not sell power, while still selling tons of power on the PvE side. PvP can be monotonized with cosmetics. I know you say who is going to pay for PvP cosmetics. Its simple you let everyone fly their ships... but the Default PvP skin is stark white plain looking ugly. You don't let people change it from there unless they pay up. Same thing for weapons... you let people equip the 100% free PvP weapons of any type Phaser/Dis/Tet ect, but they all look like the base weapons. Then you sell visual enhancers... you take the standard lockbox weapon types and make a PvP mode only Weapon cosmetic for them. You want to sell a PvP cosmetic pack that includes 2-3 ship colour schemes and a few weapon colour cosmetics... you include in the ultimate pack a PvP only fireworks device. Next Pack you include a fireworks device that shoots a big thumbs down ect ect ect. Making money on fair PvP is actually easy and has been proven by other developers. The catch is having developers capable of coding a PvP game mode... Cryptic doesn't have those employees.

    None of your ideas are bad, I just don't know how effective they would be. First, you have to remember that PvP'ers are already a very small subset of the player base. You would be marketing to those in the PvP community that are willing to pay for cosmetics, which again.. would be a subset within a subset. That is a very small market for potential sales.

    In the end, I admit, I don't know for sure that it wouldn't work. I just don't see there being enough of a sales market there to fuel the work that Cryptic would have to do in order to make PvP viable again.

    I am not trying to just put down any ideas, I understand that those in the PvP community want to revitalize their preferred game method, and ultimately, I wish you guys luck. Just know you're up against it with Cryptic.. they have made it very clear over the last few years what is most important to them, and it's aggressive and relentless monetization. None of us, PvP'ers or PvE'ers are getting anything unless Cryptic thinks it would make more money then it would cost to develop.

    No its ok... I admit its too late for STO PvP. If they wanted to make STO a esport level game it would have had to happen a decade ago. 12-13 years into a MMO is a little too late to add a proper PvP mode. Yes its too late to save STO PvP... and its frustrating seeing new(er) players with passion for PvP getting the "it can't happen" from old timers such as myself. Doesn't do any good to sugar coat things of course... but its not like Cryptic is going to say never happen they will just remain silent, and ignore suggestions.

    I am simply saying it was possible. The bones of STO where ripe for high quality team based PvP. We actually had it for the first number of years no matter what some bitter PvP hatting players around these days want to say. I remember when we would run tournaments ourselves with 20+ teams... and one day random team tournaments with 100+ players. The community was solid and supportive... and we even went out of our way to bring in new players. Bootcamps and things like it ran since almost day one. People used to hang out in Kerrat above cracked for hours and watch people 1v1 (including new players) and trade tips tricks and built ideas.

    Cryptic lost the majority of those players yes... and after being around for the life of STO I can tell you of the friends I have made in both PvP and PvE worlds the $$$ players where PvP players. lol I'm still in a PvP fleet which I would have to say might be the oldest still functioning PvP fleet in the game at this point. We have a very small core of players we are not a 500 member fleet... I haven't counted lately but I would say there are probably a little more then 20 of us. We where one of the first fleets done the colony and pretty much every other holding. Its a group of players I know if I talk about X or Y trait or console of any ship as a build idea, they have a copy to themselves to test. Way back in the day I was a member of at least 3 other PvP fleets which where much the same... no doubt a small core of players, but ones that have dropped plenty of coin on STO.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    how many MMOs are "thriving esports" look there's a ton of online PVP games out there, not every MMO needs to include it or cater to it, and sometimes when a MMO tries all that happens are no one is happy.

    The problem with STO... is it was a major selling feature for the first few years. Cryptic decided they wanted two factions... and had PvE content for one.

    I know its easy to forget now but the launch story for STO was that the federation and kdf where at war. KDF toons could ONLY be leveled with PvP day 1 of STO. That continued for at least a few years.

    The revamps people say they didn't like in retrospect where good for the game. Yes way way way back the game got some needed tweaks in the form of counters. Its why hazard emitters clears hazard debuffs, and science team clears science debuffs, and engi team repairs systems. That was a PvP revamp. It also made the PvE game much more interesting (granted automatic pay traits have made all of that stuff less required).

    Yes STO PvPers have accepted the game for what it is long long ago. Crytpic back tracked ended the Fed/KDF war stuff... and started making PvE content for both factions. Still for people that don't know... yes STO was a game where the developer focused on PvP, it was a major component of the initial design. Heck we still have many remnants like diplomatic immunity... which was intended to let players of either faction enter the space of the other. (the open PvP zones are in neutral space)
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    @husanakx

    PVP doesn't need much.

    1. It needs stealth spam fix (this spam is anything BUT entertaining)
    2. A reward for participating in a pvp que
    3. A premade trial ships for the non-pvpers, to bridge the gap to the pvp players (there is a massive gap between the two) these ships have to be build by those who know how-to make pvp ships. Cryptic or the non-pvps cannot make you a ship for this, they do not have the time or the experience, it has to be done by the know-hows.

    Ill certainly love if my concepts compete with the others's concepts,even though i am on the freebie side of things, lets see who offers the best setups, and gets more ratings/rents.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    vanhyo wrote: »
    @husanakx

    PVP doesn't need much.

    1. It needs stealth spam fix (this spam is anything BUT entertaining)
    2. A reward for participating in a pvp que
    3. A premade trial ships for the non-pvpers, to bridge the gap to the pvp players (there is a massive gap between the two) these ships have to be build by those who know how-to make pvp ships. Cryptic or the non-pvps cannot make you a ship for this, they do not have the time or the experience, it has to be done by the know-hows.

    Ill certainly love if my concepts compete with the others's concepts,even though i am on the freebie side of things, lets see who offers the best setups, and gets more ratings/rents.

    1... "stealth spam" isn't even close to the worst of it. Sure if your not built for PvP you might notice first you can't target some folks. But even if they could... you think they wouldn't be confused when they get to zero hull and don't die ? You think they will be confused when they all of a sudden become untargetable completely and 10s later pop back up at 100% doing 3x the dmg ? You think players won't be confused when PvPers troll by taking off their shields ?... and still take no dmg cause they have 150k in temp hull ?

    2... when they make PvP the daily endeavor people Q up... and might even get a few decent matches if they get Qued against other players doing the same. Some of them end up playing against actual PvP players and QQ about it non stop or don't bother next time it pops up.

    3... Once again, giving people a PVP build is not going to teach them a thing. Also its not about the gear on the ship, its about a bunch of different traits Cryptic isn't going to rent out. Even if I gave you an exact copy of my PvP escort, the ship and gear are a small part of the build. Cryptic isn't going to rent players 3 or 4 billion EC worth of lockbox traits and consoles. Even if they did... people that didn't already have those traits and understand them and their interactions would have no idea how to use them. (if we had a penny for every new player that shelled out for gamble stuff to slot the latest greatest PvP thing to complain a few hours later that it isn't an Iwin button)

    I agree that new players are very much behind if they are going to play against long time PvP players. Unfortunately the only way for those players to catch up is to talk a lot of lumps... even if Cryptic did something like I proposed and turned off 90% of the systems in PvP. Long time players are still going to beat up new players handily. I remember back when the game didn't have any of the systems people complain about... and we got flak all the time about abuse of gear, and that is when some of us would purposely run Blue gear and even fly lower tier ships. PvP is just something you have to learn through painful experience, which I guess is why it isn't for everyone.
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    vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    "Cryptic isn't going to rent players 3 or 4 billion EC worth of lockbox traits and consoles. Even if they did"
    I don't presume what cryptic is or isn't going to do, currently the pvp que is completely dead, so in theory if the rent is exclusively for that mode, the most you could achieve is revive the mode. If you want to do anything else, DPS, RP or ker'rat or private 1v1's, you still have to get gear yourself. Think of it as good advertising.

    "Once again, giving people a PVP build is not going to teach them a thing."
    I disagree with this statement, if you get the complete package, its very easy to get in rhythm, just little practice.
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    phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,682 Arc User
    A huge stumbling block for that kind of rental is the loadout system since in essence that rental would be a kind of loadout that is far further reaching than the current one. Already it is overloaded and showing strain since it has crept into a lot of major systems in the game that it was never meant to and a rental system like that would be orders of magnitude more complex.

    Maybe something like that would work after a major streamlining refactor of the loadout system and all the systems that interface with it, but until then it is more likely to make the game an unstable, unplayable, mountain of bugs that make the current problems seem minor.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,233 Community Moderator
    edited June 2022
    vanhyo wrote: »
    "Once again, giving people a PVP build is not going to teach them a thing."
    I disagree with this statement, if you get the complete package, its very easy to get in rhythm, just little practice.

    And you're ignoring all the points people have made saying that just giving them a PvP build will make them better PvPers. It won't. Again, you can give 50 different people the absolute best DPS build in the game right now, and you will get 50 different results.

    And its rather hard to get into a rhythm when the first sign of the enemy is you blowing up, PvP build or not. You don't learn anything from being pretty much oneshot constantly.

    You'd need a way to have people of similar skill levels to be matched up with each other. As of right now... we don't have that. It just throws everyone into the deep end and says "have fun". Someone who has never done PvP will get matched against someone who is basically at professional level PvP. And even if you give them both the same build... guess who will come out on top EVERY time. The one with the experience. The rookie's only experience gain will be experience in frustration at not being able to do anything, and rage quit.

    Build does NOT equal skill. Build is not the End All Solution you make it out to be. Knowing HOW to use it is key. That means actually being able to use it. And if you spend all your time looking at the respawn button... you're not learning anything expect how much you hate looking at the respawn button.

    Lets give a real world example here. Lets take two people, one an average person off the street, the other a military veteran. And lets give them both an M-16. Same exact weapon, same exact attachments, same exact ammo. Now we tell them to shoot at a target down range, say... mid range for the M-16. Now they're using the exact same setup right? Should do well right? After all build is the end all equalizer right? Nope. The Veteran knows how to use the weapon, how to aim, how to fire, how to adjust for various things. You are going to see a significant difference in not only rate of fire, but accuracy and reload speed. The average person is going to struggle because they don't have the knowledge and experience the Veteran has. If you had them compete... the skill level disadvantage would be quite obvious.

    The same is true in STO PvP. Just giving someone a build does not mean they know how to use it. And putting a rookie against a veteran will only result in the rookie being vaporized every time.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    With all the talk thought about teaching people how to PvP.

    I don't PvP all that much anymore... but the guys I fly with still do all the time. The weekends have still been pretty busy. Go to kerrat, people are still there fairly often. Find people that are PvPing and talk to them... get tips, learn how to play the PvP game. I can tell you from 12 years of experience in STO PvP if you show up there when there are fights going on... and ASK questions test your build are willing to try things and take some advice for what its worth. You can have fun and actually learn how to do pretty well. Stick with it for awhile and you'll be the one passing on information to the next new player. I don't think anyone is running any "PvP bootcamp" type things at the moment but many times in the past different people have tried.

    OrganizedPvP channel still exists in game. Now its pretty rare it is used for its intended purpose when it was created over a decade ago...
    Having said that I know right now today its still active with people setting up "random" pre built Tyler Durden type matches. (where someone tried their best to balance the teams out a bit so its not 5 vets vs 5 new kids... or 5 escorts vs 5 fat boats ect.)
    I founded the Tyler Durden channel years back... but people are basically doing that on the weekends now in Opvp. If your serious about learning PvP jump in there.

    No system Crypitc sets up is going to be as good as just having some friendly pew pew with people that PvP. This games PvP is not super serious... its not like it was 10 years back where fleets keep their Super build rotations/item synergies to themselves. If you want to understand how Stealth works... and how to build to get around it... or how to build to have more Temp hull then actual hull. Or how to spike so much DPS out of cloak that even the best players are burning their save me traits... people will share. Just ask.
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