There are sooo many afk players simply standing still throughout the TFO just to get the reward. Please add a kick feature where players can vote to kick afk or grieving players
I stand still through a few TFO's because I don't need to move to kill the enemy. Let's say Swarm, i play the first 2 parts and on the 3rd I just stand protecting my lane. Starbase One i just stand kill Klingons no need to fly around until the end. I often been talked to that I leech and that i m afk, yet I probably killed more then the person complaining. I think also that some people go afk because somebody is on the door, the phone is ringing by the end of the day its just a game and its not like you can't play the TFO's singlehanded. The whole system is a you get a reward for participation there is no difficulty no TFO you can't finish unless its bugged. I don't understand the point here. Are AFK people who are really afk and not even autofire / rotate ect... annoying ? Yeah maybe but why would I waste a single thought on if they get a reward or not? In this game there is no competition unless PVP which well is pretty dead. So I care less if somebody gets a reward box, if somebody opens a promobox and gets a ship. Maybe you need start asking yourself why that is such a big deal for you in a game where you can do almost everything single handed.
I do not have issues handling myself. My issue is people reaping rewards of someone else. If 3 people do all the work and 1 just stands there (no firing and anything) that person should not get any rewards. But either way I stand my ground. If there won't be a kick feature, at least ignoring a player should ensure you don't end up in the same team with that person again
So...going by that logic, if 3 people do 90+% of the damage on the map and the other 2 players basically do nothing...why should they get the reward? Hell if ONE person does 90+% of the damage on the map, why should do the other 4 players get any rewards than. Yeah I have done maps where I ALONE have done 90+% of the damage on the map with the other 4 being in the 2-3% range to JUST avoid the AFK penalty in advanced maps. Going by your logic, vote kicking people who don't perform up to the elitists level means vote kicking them out is fine...it is not. You seriously don't see a problem with a play with my way or else?!? The devs have set a threshold for what they consider you are AFK, if the player is meeting that, than they met the requirements and that is that.
Oh no no you misunderstand. I am not saying anything like that. Performing bad in a TFO is no reason to be kicked! Hell the person can be a beginner, low on EC, could be having a bad day, etc. I am in no way saying we should kick bad performing players. I am talking about pure afkers. Those that do NOTHING, not even engage the enemy just stay at the same spot the whole TFO not even engaging. Just moving slightly to ensure they dont get dced. Hope that was a bit more clear.
So what do you consider pure AFK?
Staying away from combat, possibly cloaking , not doing the missions and going on very low impulse to avoid being idle
Those people don't get rewarded though.
They still get the reward even if they only engage once.
This does not work. Following your example, you have now and will continue to have situations where people are built and capable of 20K+ DPS on teams with people doing 200K+ DPS who clear the map so fast, that one person (or more) were not able to hit your arbitrary DPS number. They will get penalized with an AFK here.
I am all for better tutorial information, however I will disagree that DPS should be the only metric to base activity on.
Show me anywhere that I mentioned an AFK penalty, as I never mentioned an AFK penalty in the positive or the negative in that post. What I did however say is that not pulling one's weight is valid reason to kick someone from the group. The DPS example is just the low hanging fruit that was used as a well known example. If the hypothetical TFO demands that everyone in there pull a minimum of 20k DPS, and 4 of the members are doing the 20k minimum, but the 5th guy is only at 10k, then the other 4 people would have every right to kick that person from the group under a vote kick system. Reason being is that 5th person isn't ready for the queue yet. Now I will grant you that DPS isn't the only valid measuring stick that can be utilized in a run, nor should it be. The Gravity Kills example brought up by Coldnapalm earlier (at least I think it was him) is a prime example. If you have 3 guys keeping ships under control, and 2 guys running particles, then those 2 people are still contributing to the run even though they're not doing any damage. They are still contributing by carrying out the objectives.
In my post above, I was not speaking about an AFK penalty that's applied automatically. I was answering the objection of "insufficient DPS isn't a valid reason to kick someone" and stating that yes, in fact it's a very valid reason to kick someone.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
This does not work. Following your example, you have now and will continue to have situations where people are built and capable of 20K+ DPS on teams with people doing 200K+ DPS who clear the map so fast, that one person (or more) were not able to hit your arbitrary DPS number. They will get penalized with an AFK here.
I am all for better tutorial information, however I will disagree that DPS should be the only metric to base activity on.
Show me anywhere that I mentioned an AFK penalty, as I never mentioned an AFK penalty in the positive or the negative in that post. What I did however say is that not pulling one's weight is valid reason to kick someone from the group. The DPS example is just the low hanging fruit that was used as a well known example. If the hypothetical TFO demands that everyone in there pull a minimum of 20k DPS, and 4 of the members are doing the 20k minimum, but the 5th guy is only at 10k, then the other 4 people would have every right to kick that person from the group under a vote kick system. Reason being is that 5th person isn't ready for the queue yet. Now I will grant you that DPS isn't the only valid measuring stick that can be utilized in a run, nor should it be. The Gravity Kills example brought up by Coldnapalm earlier (at least I think it was him) is a prime example. If you have 3 guys keeping ships under control, and 2 guys running particles, then those 2 people are still contributing to the run even though they're not doing any damage. They are still contributing by carrying out the objectives.
In my post above, I was not speaking about an AFK penalty that's applied automatically. I was answering the objection of "insufficient DPS isn't a valid reason to kick someone" and stating that yes, in fact it's a very valid reason to kick someone.
I agree with your post in principal.
However, these "DPS Bars" are currently only placed in Elite Queues. Take the beginning of Infected Elite for example, Cryptic has put this fight on a timer to serve as a 'DPS Check.' If you can't beat this opening fight in this time, then your team cannot handle the rest of the queue and you fail. You will only see this in Elite Queues, they do not do it in Beginner or Advanced (nor should they.) So your example only pertains to Elite Queues, and honestly, Elite Queues are not intended to be played with public match making. Can they be? Sure.. but by pugging Elites you're taking the risk of the exact scenario you described above where someone is simply undergeared or inexperienced and can't hold up their end of the deal causing a team fail.
Now, is it possible that someone has a low enough DPS to hurt the team chances in Advanced? I guess possibly.. but lets be honest.. Advanced is so easy and requires so little that it's highly unlikely. Is that small scenario really worth putting a system in place to avoid? Especially a system that could have adverse effect elsewhere in the game?
The question is one of benefit vs. reward. Does a kick system have merit? It does..yes, but it also opens the door to potential exploits for people looking to troll other people. The question has to be, is the scenario that this system would avoid, severe enough that dealing with it is worth the risk of the drawbacks.
Most of us feel that the answer to that question is no. We are not denying there is a problem, we are saying that this system is not the answer.
> @seaofsorrows said:
> Knock it off.
>
> If the discussion violates forum rules it will be closed, otherwise people are having a dialogue that you are more then welcome to ignore.
LMAO. You went south real fast. Guess sarcasm is not something you can recognize due to your reply.
Carry on...
Not the first time you have made a post like this in this thread with nothing at all to indicate you were joking. I'll admit when I'm wrong man, but this isn't one of those times. No way for me to know your intent from text without any emoji or anything to indicate a joke.
Oh no no you misunderstand. I am not saying anything like that. Performing bad in a TFO is no reason to be kicked! Hell the person can be a beginner, low on EC, could be having a bad day, etc. I am in no way saying we should kick bad performing players. I am talking about pure afkers. Those that do NOTHING, not even engage the enemy just stay at the same spot the whole TFO not even engaging. Just moving slightly to ensure they dont get dced. Hope that was a bit more clear.
Battle of Korfez and anything with a mandatory minimum would like to have a word with you on that one.
Folks shouldn't have to do 2092309482304918242398420398401928301275081428 DPS or whatever the current record is. But if a TFO requires everyone on the team to put forth 20k DPS at the minimum, and the person isn't meeting that 20k minimum, then they are not ready for that content and have no business being in that random queue until they up their game. If you have 4 people at the 20k minimum, and the 5th person is at only 10k DPS, then that 5th person not carrying their weight has guaranteed that run to fail because 10k DPS is missing from the team. That's not fair to the other 4 people in the run to be expected to carry the 5th guy. In that example the 5th guy is not ready yet, BUT will be given some proper time and learning. The group as a whole must be taken into account, and not just one guy. That's why I have also advocated for a Proving Grounds type of thing in addition to better tutorial type items.
Give people enough information to make a basic cohesive build and let them go from there. Not forcing a build, but give folks the info they need to make some basic builds and then decide from there what they want to do, and potentially get into more difficult content. As to how far up that ladder they want to go will be up to them. I'm willing to bet quite a few would agree that there's not enough critical information for folks to at least understand what each thing does. "Here's why it's a good idea to match weapon types" and some basic tips.
I know you're trying to put forth a simple straightforward example, but the problem is that 10k DPS person could very well be set up in a way that significantly increases the DPS of the other 4. This game is fairly complex when it comes to the possibilities of buffing and debuffing and such interactions. An arbitrary, if well intentioned, bar of 'you must have this much DPS to get on the ride' can entirely exclude people whose contribution dramatically raises everyone else's DPS.
I'm sure you're aware that a number of DPS parse chasers do this, they have 1 or 2 main DPS people supported by the rest with debuffs and buffs to push big numbers. We form teams and it is a team effort, and isolating one part of the team to see how they work on their own doesn't work.
AFK penalty aside, your example still does not work. People who may be capable of hitting an arbitrary required DPS number may get kicked because they were simply outperformed by someone far superior to them. It also ignores people initiating vote kicks just for the fun of it or because someone is using a ship they do not like.
Trolls are always going to find a way to abuse a system as there is no such thing as an abuse proof system unless the designer is omniscient and can account for all possibilities. There are always going to be elitists, and there are always going to be trolls, that's not going to go away just because we add a vote kick system, nor will it go away by not adding a vote kick system. If folks think that an abuse proof system can be created by anyone short of Q or other omniscient being/deity, it's not going to happen. Given that certain undesireables in the community would abuse a kick system, that's exactly why safeguards would be put in place to reduce the risk of it being abused. No it won't fix everything, and no it won't prevent all possible abuse, but it reduces it dramatically.
As much as you fear the vote kick being abused to kick people for using ships you don't like, it can also be used against the elitists as well. If someone is deliberately being a tool, you can kick them. If someone initiates a vote kick for using a ship they don't like, you vote it down and then kick them for being an elitist. So I have to ask, what do you people really want? Do you want something done about the AFKers, griefers, and elitists or do you not? Because more automated systems aren't going to do squat as that's what we have now. Automated systems can be abused by simply figuring out what their limits are and cheesing them. Folks do this enough right now to avoid AFK penalties by intentionally doing enough to avoid it. At some point somewhere, someone is going to have to get their hands dirty, that's unavoidable. As much as I may think the devs are good people, they're not close enough to the community to do it. The best they can do is give us the tools to do it ourselves and let us take care of it. It has to be the community ultimately that polices itself. Right now the AFKers and similar keep doing what they do because they know they can get away with it. There are no potential consequences for them. Oh noes not an AFK penalty they can dodge by moving around and engaging in combat for all of 10 seconds.
So straight up I have to ask, what do you folks really want them to do? What do you folks propose to do about the AFKers, griefers, elitists and so on? What we're doing right now clearly isn't working. More of the same isn't going to work, so something has to change or give. Right now I still maintain that folks seem like they want to just complain and not really do anything about it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
@darkbladejk the problem with what you are saying is, how will someone KNOW they are not up to spec unless they TRY advanced? and if they TRY they should not be shamed because they failed, and yet, in my experience that is exactly what happens.
Comments
They still get the reward even if they only engage once.
In my post above, I was not speaking about an AFK penalty that's applied automatically. I was answering the objection of "insufficient DPS isn't a valid reason to kick someone" and stating that yes, in fact it's a very valid reason to kick someone.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I agree with your post in principal.
However, these "DPS Bars" are currently only placed in Elite Queues. Take the beginning of Infected Elite for example, Cryptic has put this fight on a timer to serve as a 'DPS Check.' If you can't beat this opening fight in this time, then your team cannot handle the rest of the queue and you fail. You will only see this in Elite Queues, they do not do it in Beginner or Advanced (nor should they.) So your example only pertains to Elite Queues, and honestly, Elite Queues are not intended to be played with public match making. Can they be? Sure.. but by pugging Elites you're taking the risk of the exact scenario you described above where someone is simply undergeared or inexperienced and can't hold up their end of the deal causing a team fail.
Now, is it possible that someone has a low enough DPS to hurt the team chances in Advanced? I guess possibly.. but lets be honest.. Advanced is so easy and requires so little that it's highly unlikely. Is that small scenario really worth putting a system in place to avoid? Especially a system that could have adverse effect elsewhere in the game?
The question is one of benefit vs. reward. Does a kick system have merit? It does..yes, but it also opens the door to potential exploits for people looking to troll other people. The question has to be, is the scenario that this system would avoid, severe enough that dealing with it is worth the risk of the drawbacks.
Most of us feel that the answer to that question is no. We are not denying there is a problem, we are saying that this system is not the answer.
Knock it off.
If the discussion violates forum rules it will be closed, otherwise people are having a dialogue that you are more then welcome to ignore.
Not the first time you have made a post like this in this thread with nothing at all to indicate you were joking. I'll admit when I'm wrong man, but this isn't one of those times. No way for me to know your intent from text without any emoji or anything to indicate a joke.
I know you're trying to put forth a simple straightforward example, but the problem is that 10k DPS person could very well be set up in a way that significantly increases the DPS of the other 4. This game is fairly complex when it comes to the possibilities of buffing and debuffing and such interactions. An arbitrary, if well intentioned, bar of 'you must have this much DPS to get on the ride' can entirely exclude people whose contribution dramatically raises everyone else's DPS.
I'm sure you're aware that a number of DPS parse chasers do this, they have 1 or 2 main DPS people supported by the rest with debuffs and buffs to push big numbers. We form teams and it is a team effort, and isolating one part of the team to see how they work on their own doesn't work.
As much as you fear the vote kick being abused to kick people for using ships you don't like, it can also be used against the elitists as well. If someone is deliberately being a tool, you can kick them. If someone initiates a vote kick for using a ship they don't like, you vote it down and then kick them for being an elitist. So I have to ask, what do you people really want? Do you want something done about the AFKers, griefers, and elitists or do you not? Because more automated systems aren't going to do squat as that's what we have now. Automated systems can be abused by simply figuring out what their limits are and cheesing them. Folks do this enough right now to avoid AFK penalties by intentionally doing enough to avoid it. At some point somewhere, someone is going to have to get their hands dirty, that's unavoidable. As much as I may think the devs are good people, they're not close enough to the community to do it. The best they can do is give us the tools to do it ourselves and let us take care of it. It has to be the community ultimately that polices itself. Right now the AFKers and similar keep doing what they do because they know they can get away with it. There are no potential consequences for them. Oh noes not an AFK penalty they can dodge by moving around and engaging in combat for all of 10 seconds.
So straight up I have to ask, what do you folks really want them to do? What do you folks propose to do about the AFKers, griefers, elitists and so on? What we're doing right now clearly isn't working. More of the same isn't going to work, so something has to change or give. Right now I still maintain that folks seem like they want to just complain and not really do anything about it.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator