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Wrath of Khan colours...?

colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 2,249 Arc User
So, I was creating outfits for my TOS characters. They have the TOS uniforms, and I've been doing the TMP and WoK uniforms. TMP was fairly easy, but Wrath of Khan poses a minor issue. Here's the colours as they appear in the FILMS (ie. not on Memory Alpha or elsewhere).

TMP
Kirk (Command) = White
Sulu (Tactical) = Yellow or Gold
Uhura (Security*) = Yellow
Scotty (Engineering) = Red
Chekov (Operations) = Grey
Spock (Science) = Orange
McCoy (Medical) = Green

Notice that I've made Uhura the Chief of Security. Most people think of her as an engineer, probably Operations... but I disagree. Consider that she would be the first person to get classified communications, and as Communications Officer, she's in position to coordinate the movements of Security forces aboard the ship. More, we see Yar and Worf, both Security Officers, handling communications... and in TOS she wore RED, like the Security branch. That makes Chekov the Operations officer, which again is in keeping with his activities aboard ship. We NEVER saw him doing anything Security related, but we did see him doing scientific duties, often joining away teams, or assisting Spock. These are similar to Data's duties, and we know he was an Operations officer. So, I stand by my assignments.

However, TMP isn't the era in question. It's an oddball though. TOS had THREE colours, representing the six departments.
Gold was Tactical and Operations.
Red was Security and Engineering.
Blue was Science and Medical.

It SEEMS as though the Wrath of Khan uniforms kind of went BACK to three colours... Consider...

Kirk wore white, which would be a special colour for command officers, as Spock ALSO wore white as Captain of the ship.
Scotty and Sulu both wore gold.
Uhura and Chekov both wore blue-grey.
McCoy wore Green.

Since we know the departments of all these officers, we can assign the colours accordingly, but we don't have a SCIENCE officer. If we assume two departments per colour, that suggests Science would also be green... unless we consider Savvik the Science Officer, in which case the colour would be RED... but this breaks from the seeming format of two departments to each colour.

I know what it says on Memory Alpha... but I wondered what you all thought. Should I do what seems to be the case in the films, and put my Science Officers in green?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    Take grey/green as sci. Red was trainee.
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,984 Arc User
    this is the way I went with the uniform. I saw a photo of the cast. not sure if it was photoshopped or it was a test, but I liked it.
    Tsaan.jpg
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    Marik, now listen to me: Don't let them fool you, don't overthink this and don't make it a hard one, ok?

    Here, from the wiki:

    Grey – Operations Division, Communications and Navigation Branches; also Sciences Division, Scientific Research and Technical branches

    It is all too easy even taken from the movies directly:

    Take Lt. Valeris for example who is supposed to follow Spocks foodsteps. She is a trainee for a position hence the red collar. The position we are talking is science hence the grey marker. Got it?

    800c0d55a081cbbf2db3e33ea6afa6e1.jpg

    Edit: The moment you have the color set to grey or grey/red if your boff is a trainee, get back to your starship build colonel! There are more important things to do. The Borg invaded the Sibirian system. Engage!
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    Ya, I know what the wiki says, but it's not entirely trustworthy, as it's a fan creation... and from what we see on the crew, it LOOKS like they're doing two departments per colour. Using Grey for so many departments kind of flies in the face of that... and it leaves Medical as an oddball on its own, which makes no sense, based on what we see. My thinking is that Science was MEANT to be green, like McCoy. So, if Spock hadn't been wearing white, he would have been wearing green. Otherwise, Gold would be used for two departments, Grey for THREE and green for one... it's just not quite aesthetically pleasing.

    As I look at Valeris' uniform, I have to say it's weird she is wearing red AND grey... but Kim Cattrall can wear anything and make it look good.

    What?

    You are purposly fortifying your own dilemma by both rejecting the game and on screen (so canon) sources. I have never seen that and of course it leaves me and everybody else out of options.

    Let's cross fingers you never ever face any real problems, ok? :|
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 6,085 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    In this cast photo no one is wearing a gray undershirt (where the collars come from) at all:

    wok-full-cast.jpg

    Kirk and Spock wear white undershirt/collar
    Chekov and Uhura wear a light pastel blue that borders on a grayish lavender
    Scott and Sulu wear a beige or gold (in screencaps it looks like it could be either one depending on the lighting)
    McCoy wears Green
    Savik wears a cardinal red (possibly the senior cadet color, several others wore that shade and most or all looked adult).

    None of the following are in this picture but in screencaps there also seem to be:
    Various midshipmen who wear a brighter, almost orangish, red (everyone who wore that particular shade looked teenaged iirc)

    Several people had black collars, Memory Alpha identifies them as enlisted instead of officers.


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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    Ya, I know what the wiki says, but it's not entirely trustworthy, as it's a fan creation... and from what we see on the crew, it LOOKS like they're doing two departments per colour. Using Grey for so many departments kind of flies in the face of that... and it leaves Medical as an oddball on its own, which makes no sense, based on what we see. My thinking is that Science was MEANT to be green, like McCoy. So, if Spock hadn't been wearing white, he would have been wearing green. Otherwise, Gold would be used for two departments, Grey for THREE and green for one... it's just not quite aesthetically pleasing.

    As I look at Valeris' uniform, I have to say it's weird she is wearing red AND grey... but Kim Cattrall can wear anything and make it look good.

    What?

    You are purposly fortifying your own dilemma by both rejecting the game and on screen (so canon) sources. I have never seen that and of course it leaves me and everybody else out of options.

    Let's cross fingers you never ever face any real problems, ok? :|

    I think you misunderstand me.

    I'm just saying that Memory Alpha isn't an official source, and is making an assumption. We haven't actually seen a Science Officer in the WoK uniform, at least not to my knowledge, so everything is supposition, including Memory Alpha.

    My supposition is that since there are two departments in gold and two in bluegrey, that it's logical to expect two in the third colour we see, the green. White and red are exceptions, as they serve specific roles (command and trainee).

    I just wondered what people thought of that idea. Nothing to get worked up over, it was just an idea I brought up for our amusement.

    We've not seen WoK science officer sure but we've seen a TUC one and as far as we know there's was 0 significant change to uniforms between those movies. Valeris has grey straps on her uniform, while she wears the red shirt of a trainee with every other department those straps have matched the color of the undershirt, so why would science be any different.

    It's OK to question sources but only to a degree, we got screenshots of Valeris with grey straps, so there's really no realistic reason to question Memory Alpha here. We know from WoK that red=trainee so there's really no point in overthinking the whole thing.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    > @colonelmarik said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > I'm uncertain she's a Science Officer... I mean, Spock does say he expects her to replace him, but she spends the whole time at Navigation, meaning she would logically wear the same colour as Chekov (Operations, grey).

    Rewatch the film. She takes the ship out of dock, she is at the helm. Small hint, she is not wearing Sulus color. ;)

    She fulfills multiple tasks as it’s to be expected from a trainee.

    I told you not to make it a hard one and you are making it a hard one. You question memory alpha, wiki and what is being said in film. Hold back for a moment and think what about you are doing. If your mind gets away with that you could end up questioning dozen of uniform related color choices throughout the franchise. You will completely loose it. Dont do this and stick to whats real, please.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • psiameesepsiameese Member Posts: 1,650 Arc User
    TWK's Saavik was Lt. Junior Grade. Hence the red sweater and matching red at the shoulder epaulet and left sleeve on her jacket. By Search for Spock, Saavik was full Lieutenant in a white sweater with white epaulet and sleeve. As displayed by command line officers. Such as Kirk and Spock.

    Later, in TUC, Saavik was originally written to return and be our turncoat. Which didn't go over well in some circles. A script revision later, we got Valeris as yet another protege for Spock. As with Saavik's original introduction, Valeris was to be a Lt. Junior Grade. IIRC, it was production limitation of premade, available jackets which would fit Kim Cattrall which got one mismatched with the red sweater. YMMV, but I choose to not obsess too much about the blue epaulet and sleeve. Knowing they should have been red all along.

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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,745 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    I found this. it's not complete but it's by the designer of the costumes https://forgottentrek.com/redesigning-starfleets-uniforms-for-star-trek-ii/

    also from the trivia comments on IMDB

    The different colored turtlenecks worn by Starfleet officers indicate what division they belong to. White - Command; Gold - Engineering; Gray - Science; Light Green - Medical; Red - Cadets and Trainees; and Black - Enlisted.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    I found this. it's not complete but it's by the designer of the costumes https://forgottentrek.com/redesigning-starfleets-uniforms-for-star-trek-ii/

    Cool read, thank you. :)
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    Command branch does exist for junior officers, it would things like clerks and other low ranking administrative personel.

    We also know that Picatd served as a helm officer so, he couldn't have been a straight up science officer. So command with stints in other branches seems like a good fit for Picard.

    EDIT: We see low ranking officers with white branch bands in tuc, the ones preparing the tables.
  • psiameesepsiameese Member Posts: 1,650 Arc User
    I found this. it's not complete but it's by the designer of the costumes https://forgottentrek.com/redesigning-starfleets-uniforms-for-star-trek-ii/

    Cool read, thank you. :)

    Indeed, a nifty read.

    However, we do see three colours for regular officers (ie. not command or trainee); Gold, Bluegrey and Green.

    The only branch we don't see a specific officer from is Science, but given that Gold and Bluegrey are used on two branches each, it's logical to assume the Green would be too, so Science would be Green.

    It's also notable that in Tapestry, the three officers (Picard, Batanades and Zweller) wore the three colours described in that story... Marta wore bluegrey and Zweller wore gold... but interestingly Picard wore WHITE. In Wrath of Khan, white was for Captains and higher, but by the time Picard was an Ensign, apparently his branch would be wearing white. Since we know he was trained as an Archaeologist, it's probable he would have been a Science Officer... which means by that time Science was wearing white...?

    As I say, what we see on screen is often inconsistent. I suppose I'm trying to impose consistency on something that lacks it...

    Saavik, once assigned to USS Grissom is now a full Lieutenant. She wears a white tunic. ;)

    tsfshd0279.jpg
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/starfleet-uniforms1.htm

    This page shows the division colors straight from Star Trek magazine.
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  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    psiameese wrote: »
    I found this. it's not complete but it's by the designer of the costumes https://forgottentrek.com/redesigning-starfleets-uniforms-for-star-trek-ii/

    Cool read, thank you. :)

    Indeed, a nifty read.

    However, we do see three colours for regular officers (ie. not command or trainee); Gold, Bluegrey and Green.

    The only branch we don't see a specific officer from is Science, but given that Gold and Bluegrey are used on two branches each, it's logical to assume the Green would be too, so Science would be Green.

    It's also notable that in Tapestry, the three officers (Picard, Batanades and Zweller) wore the three colours described in that story... Marta wore bluegrey and Zweller wore gold... but interestingly Picard wore WHITE. In Wrath of Khan, white was for Captains and higher, but by the time Picard was an Ensign, apparently his branch would be wearing white. Since we know he was trained as an Archaeologist, it's probable he would have been a Science Officer... which means by that time Science was wearing white...?

    As I say, what we see on screen is often inconsistent. I suppose I'm trying to impose consistency on something that lacks it...

    Saavik, once assigned to USS Grissom is now a full Lieutenant. She wears a white tunic. ;)

    tsfshd0279.jpg

    That blonde kid is Kirk's love child, right? This is from the Genesis story?
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