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John Harriman who was he?

disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
https://screenrant.com/star-trek-generations-captain-harriman-worst-how/amp/

Stumbled upon this little stub article today. I remember when I saw the movie I assumed he was a yard captain, in command during the construction but not destined to be the captain on missions.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    He was the brother of The Addams Family's Wednesday, right?
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • mainamaina Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    It's a Screen Rant fluff opinion piece. Wait for the follow up article, it will explain things while sorting all the Enterprise Captains into their Hogwarts House, or D&D alignment, or whatever the hacks think is currently popular.
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    There've been many arguments provided in support of Harriman, and many against him.

    The ones against him are probably fairly obvious: had to ask some veterans to fix things for him, got Kirk killed amongst other reasons.

    Against that, you can say that he put aside his pride and asked for help despite dozens of pairs of eyes watching him, including those of the press. Also, Kirk insisted to go to the Deflector area - before that, Harriman was willing to go.

    Besides these two immediate refutations, there's also to consider that Harriman got a ship that was poorly equipped and under-staffed (there were no nurses for example).
    Of course, detractors could argue that any real captain would have insisted on his ship being properly finished before leaving spacedock. Still, given the circumstances, there wasn't much else he could've done.
    He didn't have endless supplies of torpedoes like Janeway had, no super android to come up with a great solution.
    His ship didn't seem to have the Defiant's plot armour, nor did he have any allies tracking him through a vortex when they were most badly needed like Archer had.

    Perhaps most crucial: copy pasting of fleets hadn't been invented yet.


    He did pretty well, given all that. His people skills were also quite good. He recognised that Kirk (Kirk, not Shatner of course) didn't want to be the at centre of attention so whenever the press would focus on him, he made sure to intervene.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    And then there's outside-of-universe things to consider of course.

    Everyone except the heroes (ok, bar a few exceptions like admiral Hayes, captain Jellico and captain Hernandez to name a few) has to be corrupt or incompetent. So that the heroes are less corrupt and more competent.

    Overall, I'd say that it's not Harriman's fault. I kind of liked him. Too bad he and his Enterprise were really only used as a plot device.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    > @fleetcaptain5#1134 said:
    > And then there's outside-of-universe things to consider of course.
    >
    > Everyone except the heroes (ok, bar a few exceptions like admiral Hayes, captain Jellico and captain Hernandez to name a few) has to be corrupt or incompetent. So that the heroes are less corrupt and more competent.
    >
    > Overall, I'd say that it's not Harriman's fault. I kind of liked him. Too bad he and his Enterprise were really only used as a plot device.

    Or they died heroically off screen like Rachelle Garret. Or fade into obscurity like Robert April. Or end up like Christopher Pike.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    Or Harriman was a product of the times, not every starship captain fights (or seduces) new an exciting aliens or phenomenon on a weekly basis. His career beforehand was probably more typical of Starfleet. Warp here, scan that, deliver this, and nothing outside of expectations happened.

    Really we should feel sorry for him, Kirk's presence brought along adventure, and Harriman had never met her before.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    > @fleetcaptain5#1134 said:
    > And then there's outside-of-universe things to consider of course.
    >
    > Everyone except the heroes (ok, bar a few exceptions like admiral Hayes, captain Jellico and captain Hernandez to name a few) has to be corrupt or incompetent. So that the heroes are less corrupt and more competent.
    >
    > Overall, I'd say that it's not Harriman's fault. I kind of liked him. Too bad he and his Enterprise were really only used as a plot device.

    Or they died heroically off screen like Rachelle Garret. Or fade into obscurity like Robert April. Or end up like Christopher Pike.

    Yeah, I guess those could be included with the other exceptions. Except April indeed, he's an odd one. He might as well have never existed.

    It would have been nice if we'd have seen more of Harriman, Garrett and April. Starfleet in general seemed to be made up too much of a handful of people (competent or otherwise) at certain times.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    April only really excited for o e episode of the animated series (voiced by James doohan). I don't think he appeared anywhere else.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Harriman, to me, came across as a bit more by the book, and of course less experienced.
    People should also remember that the Enterprise-B wasn't actually scheduled for active duty yet. It was a publicity move to have the new Enterprise fly around the Solar System a week before her official launch. They weren't expecting to have to respond to an emergency.

    Harriman may not have had the experience Kirk had, but he handled himself well, even surrounded by the Press and veteran officers. Some might say that his decision to go to Deflector Control was an attempt to abdicate to a more experienced officer, but I think it also showed that he WAS willing to get his hands dirty if necessary. While on paper giving Kirk command may have seemed like a good idea, Kirk accepted that it wasn't his ship and volunteered to go in Harriman's place.
    We can assume that the Enterprise-B lasted many years, and had her share of adventures before the Enterprise-C was commissioned. And as far as I am aware, Ent-B was never listed as destroyed, so she did survive her tour.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,844 Arc User
    in the end of it all, Harriman is the second best captain in Star Trek, following Janeway as the best. why? neither one lost a starship.
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    > @vetteguy904 said:
    > in the end of it all, Harriman is the second best captain in Star Trek, following Janeway as the best. why? neither one lost a starship.

    Not in the prime timeline anyway. There was the year of hell.

    Does having your ship stolen by space hillbillies count as lost?

    And there were the deuterium copies that all died out.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Harriman, to me, came across as a bit more by the book, and of course less experienced.

    He kinda gave the impression that he didn't become a captain by serving a long time and getting promoted but right after the academy or something.

    Then of course, Kirk was present and he was like 'notice me Senpai'. Because of course he was.

    Plus, he was one of the first young captains after the Khitomer-conference, when this new peace-and-prosperity era began. Or the era of we-send-ships-out-with-barely-any-equipment.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Or the era of we-send-ships-out-with-barely-any-equipment.

    Enterprise-B wasn't fully outfitted because it was supposed to be just "a quick run around the block" to celebrate the commissioning of the new flagship. She would have been deployed, fully outfitted and staffed, the following week.
    They literally got caught with their pants down so to speak with that emergency and Enterprise being the ONLY ship in range that could respond.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    yeah, you notice how for some reason, the enterprise is ALWAYS 'the only ship in range' even literally on the federation homeworld's doorstep? there should be a standing, battle/S&R-ready fleet in permanent orbit of any faction's homeworld AT ALL TIMES​​
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    For me, Harriman is exonerated of 'getting Kirk killed' the moment Scotty and Kirk come up with using the deflector. Harriman volunteers himself without any hesitation - it's his ship and his responsibility. Only when Harriman is half-way to the turbo lift does Kirk interject and take his place, to prevent the Enterprise losing her Captain on her maiden voyage.

    And the 'relying on veteran officers' thing is just BS. Scotty is renowned as Starfleet's best engineer, and Chekov as an excellent helmsman, in a situation where the ship is barely under control and is hopelessly unequipped for a rescue mission. Was he supposed to NOT use all the resources at his disposal?! He had the fleet's best engineer and one of its best pilots on board and he used them.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    yeah, you notice how for some reason, the enterprise is ALWAYS 'the only ship in range' even literally on the federation homeworld's doorstep? there should be a standing, battle/S&R-ready fleet in permanent orbit of any faction's homeworld AT ALL TIMES​​

    And that tradition even continued in Star Trek Into Darkness. Not sure if it was an intentional nod or for the drama but..

    Enterprise departs to Q'onos - ships and a spacedock near Earth.
    Enterprise gets chased back to Earth and suddenly everyone else is sleeping and no spacedock or any other ship in sight.


    Anyway, despite the writers literally sticking a "kick me!" to Harriman's back in the movie by making him look like an idiot, the whole opening was the only somewhat good part of the movie IMO. He would have been a captain-character with an actual arc.

    And no, it's objectively not his fault that Kirk "died". Kirk made the decision to go into the danger-zone due to his ego, while Harriman was absolutely willing to do it himself.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Harriman, to me, came across as a bit more by the book, and of course less experienced.

    He kinda gave the impression that he didn't become a captain by serving a long time and getting promoted but right after the academy or something.

    Then of course, Kirk was present and he was like 'notice me Senpai'. Because of course he was.

    Plus, he was one of the first young captains after the Khitomer-conference, when this new peace-and-prosperity era began. Or the era of we-send-ships-out-with-barely-any-equipment.
    John Harriman was a freshly-minted captain, it would appear. His very first command was of an Enterprise, a name with a mythic history in Starfleet.

    And standing beside him on what was intended to be the maiden voyage (rushed for press purposes, and I'm sure Harriman was acutely aware of everything his ship lacked at that moment) was the very man who'd made it a legend in the first place, and an Starfleet admiral to boot.

    That wasn't "notice me, senpai" - that was "Great Bird of the Galaxy, please, please don't let me TRIBBLE this up in front of the press, in front of an admiral, and in front of three of the most legendary names in modern Starfleet history!" Coupled, of course, with the full knowledge that if anything did go wrong, he was as yet ill-equipped to handle it. Had he been a captain with more experience, or with pull in Command, he might have been able to force Starfleet's PR people to put this whole fiasco off until next Tuesday, but under the circumstances I imagine he was concerned that raising such objections for what was supposed to be a milk run, not even leaving Sol system, might have cost him his shiny new command.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    jonsills wrote: »
    And standing beside him on what was intended to be the maiden voyage (rushed for press purposes, and I'm sure Harriman was acutely aware of everything his ship lacked at that moment) was the very man who'd made it a legend in the first place, and an Starfleet admiral to boot.

    Actually he was dropped back to Captain after ST4, the only punishment left after everything from ST3. But in a way it was actually a blessing in disguise because it put Kirk back into his comfort zone where he is a master, command of a Starship. Honestly I think Kirk hated being an Admiral.

    But still Kirk had Legendary status.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But still Kirk had Legendary status.

    Exactly. His actual rank was far surpassed by his reputation and achievements. The demotion was a mere formality that had to happen as a consequence for doing a lot of crazy stuff.

    And with "notice me Senpai" I merely meant that the freshman-captain was having THE living legend of living legends on his bridge and had to try his best not to look like an idiot, while Kirk definately gave him the "you are a noob"-stare.

    The writing of the scene and the lack of basic equipment made Harriman look dumb where he truly wasn't to blame.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Actually... I think Kirk was just uncomfortable being pulled out of retirement for a publicity stunt that went sideways. And I think Harriman's willingness to get his hands dirty earned some respect points from Kirk.
    When Kirk told Harriman to stay on the Bridge and volunteered to go himself, I feel that was Kirk accepting that the Enterprise-B needed her Captain more than it needed Captain Kirk. He basically passed the torch to Harriman in that instance. While Kirk had superior experience, it wasn't his ship. It wasn't his Chair. It belonged to another. And he decided to respect that.

    As for the lack of basic equipment... I don't think Kirk even knew all the details. Just assumed that the ship was fully equipped and not just going around the block with nothing more than a full tank of gas and polished paint.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    > @reyan01 said:
    > To be honest, I always wondered what Kirk was doing there in the first place. I mean, did Starfleet flatter him into it? Was it HIS desire, as an excuse to be aboard a Starship again? As noted, he didn't seem overly comfortable about it all.

    I think that was more setup than anything else. The rest of Kirk's time in that movie deals with his guilt over not having a family.

    Remember he doesn't want to go help Picard at first, even knowing the nexus isn't necessarily real.

    Really a Greek hero tragedy in space.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

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  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,540 Arc User
    Always thought Captain Harriman gets a bum rap. Some people stand on the ramparts defending the tribe against Entropy. Other people carry the arrows to them. And no one really knows which one they are until Entropy attacks.

    Some desk pilot back in Starfleet Hindquarters(no, I did not misspell it) decided it would be great publicity for the 'old' Captain of the 'old' Enterprise to be seen 'passing the torch' to the 'new' Captain of the 'new' Enterprise. Desk pilots go home every night and don't have to live with consequences and never ever get it right. Because they aren't smart enough to realize Murphy is an unstoppable force and is always, always on the side of Entropy. And their two second attention span guarantees there will always be a "next time". I have personal experience with this.

    Harriman probably became a Captain by being that guy who worked career progression in the "real" Starfleet. The one which does all the mundane, routine Starfleet activities which ships like Enterprise, and a few others, get to skip out on. He checked all the boxes in the correct order at the correct time. Somebody who was his patron in the Admiralty made a good enough case with the other Admirals for him to be selected as Captain of the Enterprise-B. Nothing at all wrong with this. The above isn't intended as a dig at him.

    Then, he is put in command in a situation he's not quite prepared for. And his ship isn't quite prepared for it either. Considering ENT-B saved a bunch of people who would have died had she not been there and she made it back to Space Dock relatively intact with only one casualty, he did far far better than anyone had a hope of expecting.

    Meanwhile, the desk pilot who thought up this brilliant scheme got away with murder.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    REMFs, man. Been the same since Sargon of Akkad took credit for building the Akkadian Empire in Sumer (like he was out there winning battles all by himself with his very own personal spear, and like Enshakushanna of Uruk hadn't already done the hard parts for him).
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    And the 'relying on veteran officers' thing is just BS. Scotty is renowned as Starfleet's best engineer, and Chekov as an excellent helmsman, in a situation where the ship is barely under control and is hopelessly unequipped for a rescue mission. Was he supposed to NOT use all the resources at his disposal?! He had the fleet's best engineer and one of its best pilots on board and he used them.

    I called it 'relying on veteran officers' because I got the impression that was what the creators of the movie wanted to suggest. The idea that Harriman and perhaps Starfleet as a whole wouldn't get anywhere without those veterans.

    It's basically what I said in another comment: that minor characters usually only serve to enhance the heroes / core characters.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    He was the guy who took command of the 1701-B on a Tuesday. :wink:
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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    He was the guy who took command of the 1701-B on a Tuesday. :wink:

    No, he took command before that Tuesday.
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