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dsc klingon + intel skills, weird idea? (patrols)

sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
I don't understand why the dsc klink have ionic turbulence 1, which is more powerful than the herald's ionic turbulence 3. Klink are supposed to be the dumbest specie in Star trek, and they are supposed to hate sci stuff? btw, they use other intel skills.

It is not a complain, because even if they were using ionic turbulence 10000, they would be killed as fast. It just a question, why they use this skill (and the other intel skills), and isn't it weird?

they use this skill only in the patrols not in starbase 1.
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Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,861 Community Moderator
    Klingons are not the dumbest species in Star Trek. Warlike yes. But not dumb. Otherwise how would they have survived, let alone become a space faring superpower?

    The reason the Discovery Klingons in the patrols are using intel powers is because they are a sub faction of the Klingon NPCs, specifically House Mo'Kai. Said House is pretty much an Intel specialist group from the 23rd Century, with feats such as making Voq into basically a hybrid sleeper agent and grafting Tyler's personality over his. J'Ula herself was able to hunt down the USS Glenn, and even hack her computer for data on Spore Tech.

    There are other examples of smart Klingons too. Kor himself was quite clever. Martok was also quite clever with battle tactics as well.

    So no. The Klingons are not the dumbest species. I'd say that goes to the Pakleds.
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  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,603 Arc User
    Klingons aren't stupid, their intellectual caste just isn't celebrated the way their warrior caste is. The Julingons, from what I recall, were more of a secret intelligence type, so the spec powers kind of makes sense for them. Atleast they're not spamming placates.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    Klingons are not dumb. I mean, they did reverse engineer alien tech to create their own ships and obtain space travel, a 1000 years ago. You know, while humans were just barely able to start exploring the Atlantic. Which for lore would be the Hur'q.

    Using the game, I don't see the Dominion giving klingons space travel, until they knew if they could control. Which Molor and his ilk failed to do. Along with the fek'lhri failing to exterminate them. Then again giving game lore, the reverse engineered tech that gave Klingons space flight might very well be from the fek'lhri.
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    Yeah the Klingons may not value knowledge for itself, which does mean that yes they're going to be a bit behind say.. the UFP on some technological applications that don't have an immediate and obvious military value, like say.. holographic tech, but anything that gives a military advantage they will sieze.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,573 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.

    The Discovery era apparently has more advanced tech than in TOS, just look at the bridges ;) .

    After the J'ulians arrived in 2410 the first thing they probably did was use their fleet to seize modern tech and people who could help them integrate it with their own. They may also have bought additional tech from black marketeers, and might have support from some more extremist modern Klingon houses.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.


    if they where being super realistic the discovery era klingon ships would have been leuitenant level and would be one shotted by a modern ship. with their shields and weapons being woefully inadaquite.

    but obviouisly that would be boring.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,861 Community Moderator
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.

    By saying "supposed" you ARE saying that they are, and have always been, dumb. "Supposed" implies that they SHOULD be whatever you say. So by saying that "they are supposed to be dumb", then turning around and saying "I never said they are dumb" sends mixed messages as to your meaning. What is it that you mean? That they are or not?

    And until now we've never had subfactions of NPC factions. The closest we've had until now is Fed/Terran and Romulan/Rom Republic. Fed and Terran are literally just the same faction except for hull material. Even Discovery Terran has pretty much the same abilities as normal Fed. Romulans and Republic Romulans have different ships and native damage type, but other than that behave the same. A Republic Ha'pax behaves the same as an Imperial D'Deridex.
    House Mo'kai behaves differently from standard Klingon. As standard Klingon NPC faction has been in game since launch, of course they won't have intel abilities. Not even Fed got any specialist abilities. For all intents and purposes House Mo'kai is apart from standard KDF. They use the same assets (in this case same as Discovery era KDF), but are not standard Klingon.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,870 Arc User
    i think discovery terrans use some of the various agony-based powers cryptic has made into consoles and kit modules, which the federation certainly does not​​
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,775 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    The Pakleds are the dumbest species in Star Trek. The Klingons didn't build the 2nd largest Alpha/Beta Quadrant empire by being stupid.

    That said, I do generally agree that I'd like to see some more tactically focused Klingon NPC abilities. The problem with that is that tactically focused abilities are easily countered in game making the Klingons one of the easiest NPC enemies to deal with either in space or on ground.

    Ultimately, the truth is that the NPC "A.I." is not very challenging and it will never be very challenging. The game simply isn't built to have challenging NPCs with adaptive AI. Creating challenging content in STO is more related to the design of the map and the way in which the NPCs fit into the puzzle of that map. The map itself becomes more of a combination of mathematics and simple puzzle solving. Once you have the math down (your build) and once you have the puzzle solving down (your piloting / destroying transformers first or pressing F to activate XYZ thing first), 99.99% of maps become trivially easy to beat.
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  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 3,670 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Another one tied with the Pakleds would be the Kazon. The Klingons do not fit this category.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    What about the Doff Assignment to Investigate Rumors of Klingon Intelligence? :)
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,870 Arc User
    both that and the starfleet version always fail to find signs of intelligence for me​​
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    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    The op does realise that the intell spec refers to military inteligence gathering which is not the same as being smart or dumb right?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,428 Arc User
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.


    if they where being super realistic the discovery era klingon ships would have been leuitenant level and would be one shotted by a modern ship. with their shields and weapons being woefully inadaquite.

    but obviouisly that would be boring.

    Yeah 2250s ships "realistically" would have been frigate or at worst cruiser level mobs which would be equilevants for ensign or Lt. level ground mobs. Though this would have also caused a miss match since apart from not having personal shields ground mobs for Mo'kai should be more or less as difficult as baseline 25c KDF mobs, after all a 23c disruptor would kill just as well as 25c one.
  • redwatchmanredwatchman Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    House Mo'kai is essentially the intelligence and espionage branch of the Klingons at the time. The the 25th century Klingons don't use those powers because specializations didn't exist when any of those missions were created. Besides that they aren't all intel specialists like Mo'kai.

    It's not the ionic turbulence 1 that frustrates me. I'm not sure why you say it's more powerful than the Iconian's rank 3. I've never noticed them use ionic turbulence. It's a pretty distinct effect when the Iconians use it on me and it's different than what the Mo'kai do.

    It's the viral impulse burst. Holy heck. "Let me just click this channeled beam–"viral impulse burst sends me into full impulse and races me past my targets*—NOOO!! AARGH!!!"
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,428 Arc User
    The op does realise that the intell spec refers to military inteligence gathering which is not the same as being smart or dumb right?

    Granted if Klingons were as unintelligent the OP implies, then intel gathering would be pretty much impossible for them as they wouldn't be able to tell a vital military document from a shopping list.

    The thing to remember about the klingons is that while they like to pretend to be simple brutes whose only known military tactic is a frontal charge. The officer class actually isn't and things like luring the enemy into ambush by using cloaks isn't above them at all and they certainly know how to do.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    @fallenkezef: edited.

    I don't want to waste my time in sterile discussions again.


  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    Let not forget, it was the klingons that figured out the trick to counter the Breen weapons, that was devastating on all ships, during the Dominion War. Which helped turned the tide of the on going war in the Alliances favor.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.

    The Discovery era apparently has more advanced tech than in TOS, just look at the bridges ;) .

    After the J'ulians arrived in 2410 the first thing they probably did was use their fleet to seize modern tech and people who could help them integrate it with their own. They may also have bought additional tech from black marketeers, and might have support from some more extremist modern Klingon houses.

    Actually, the tech in DSC is mostly a lot lower than it was in TOS (too much so for only ten years in fact), it just has better eye candy since the show's budget is a lot bigger and real-world production technology is better (with things like CGI and inexpensive non-scanning LCD displays).

    In some areas it is even lower than it was in ENT since they apparently forgot how to fight at warp (something Malcolm came up with initially according to later seasons of ENT), they cannot see out of warp well enough to avoid impossibly dense asteroid fields, have combat targeting that is not any better than ENT had, and a lot of other details including apparently loosing the art of human engineering control stations for efficiency, and sourceless lighting.

    Where J'ula got modern upgrades for her ships is no mystery, there was one of those one-pages stories back near the start of AoD that revealed that J'ula found the modern remnants of her house and they had their hooks in one of the larger modern houses. She struck a deal with them and then simply sent her ships to that house's repair yards for the upgrades, they were just sneaky and careful enough about it for the modern house to maintain deniability.

  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    first of all I used "supposed", I have never said that they are dumb.
    And the fact, that they are a subfaction of the klink and from the past, is really again a weird excuse. why, our current klinks don't use intel/temp:/etc skills in the missions, patrols (new romulus patrols)? have they lost all this knowledge?

    And like I said their intel skills from the past are more poweful than the herald skills; this is really ridiculous.
    I just see a lack of imagination from the devs.

    The Discovery era apparently has more advanced tech than in TOS, just look at the bridges ;) .

    After the J'ulians arrived in 2410 the first thing they probably did was use their fleet to seize modern tech and people who could help them integrate it with their own. They may also have bought additional tech from black marketeers, and might have support from some more extremist modern Klingon houses.

    Actually, the tech in DSC is mostly a lot lower than it was in TOS (too much so for only ten years in fact), it just has better eye candy since the show's budget is a lot bigger and real-world production technology is better (with things like CGI and inexpensive non-scanning LCD displays).

    In some areas it is even lower than it was in ENT since they apparently forgot how to fight at warp (something Malcolm came up with initially according to later seasons of ENT), they cannot see out of warp well enough to avoid impossibly dense asteroid fields, have combat targeting that is not any better than ENT had, and a lot of other details including apparently loosing the art of human engineering control stations for efficiency, and sourceless lighting.

    Where J'ula got modern upgrades for her ships is no mystery, there was one of those one-pages stories back near the start of AoD that revealed that J'ula found the modern remnants of her house and they had their hooks in one of the larger modern houses. She struck a deal with them and then simply sent her ships to that house's repair yards for the upgrades, they were just sneaky and careful enough about it for the modern house to maintain deniability.
    which is a bit odd given we're told house Mokai was destroyed in a feud.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,861 Community Moderator
    which is a bit odd given we're told house Mokai was destroyed in a feud.

    Not really. If you consider that not ALL of House Mo'kai was pulled into the 25th Century from the 23rd, then it makes sense. After J'Ula's fleet vanished, what remained was not as strong as it once was, but still existed. Eventually the weakened House Mo'Kai would be destroyed by a rival House. Then J'Ula's fleet appears again in the 25th Century, essentially ressurecting House Mo'Kai.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    right my point is that the house would proably be long gone outside of Ju'la's stuff.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,861 Community Moderator
    However... J'Ula may still be able to find support from, say... forces loyal to B'vat?
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,428 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    However... J'Ula may still be able to find support from, say... forces loyal to B'vat?
    Or remanants of the House of Torg or pretty much anyone within the klingon hierarchy who has a bone to pick with J'mpok. As I stated before klingons are far more intelligent and far less "honorable" as the stereotype implies and I are most certainly not above allying with with mo'kai if they think it would bring them more prestige in the imperial hierarchy.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,861 Community Moderator
    Not only that, both House B'Vat and the remnants of House Torg are hostile towards the Federation, and thus see the alliance between the Federation and Empire after the undine attack on Qo'nos as a threat to them. Since we no longer have the mission where we give B'Vat a warrior's death, he may very well still be alive, and sees J'Ula as a means to restart the war between the Federation and the Empire. Remnants of House Torg may see J'Ula as a shot at revenge against House Martok for the death of Torg.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • fred26291#2759 fred26291 Member Posts: 1,012 Arc User
    We look for things to make us go :)
  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Not only that, both House B'Vat and the remnants of House Torg are hostile towards the Federation, and thus see the alliance between the Federation and Empire after the undine attack on Qo'nos as a threat to them. Since we no longer have the mission where we give B'Vat a warrior's death, he may very well still be alive, and sees J'Ula as a means to restart the war between the Federation and the Empire. Remnants of House Torg may see J'Ula as a shot at revenge against House Martok for the death of Torg.

    I am honesty hoping for a Klingon Civil War Arc. J'ula may think if she can take over the empire, she can redirect the empire against the federation.

    It will also then potentially put the Federation in a difficult position. They have an alliance with the Klingons. However, do they interfere in an internal matter even if they know if J'ula wins the alliance will fall?

    But honesty I want a Klingon Civil war for a good focus on the Klingon faction and some love given to Qonos. I also say this as a feddie main :)
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    We look for things to make us go :)

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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    A Klingon civiul war arc honestly makes some sense, I mean J'mpok's position strikes me as kiinda weak, I mean he initally came to power by gathering the hard liners who wanted to fight the feddies and the rommies under his banner and "killed" martok for for the position as chancellor but the last few years he's forged not only peace but outright alliance with both the federation and the romulan republic, Martok has returned ohh and is now waltzing about with the sword of Kahalas, speaking of, the cloned Kahlas died on J'mpok's watch these are all survivable sure, but any one of these things would have been a rallying cry a challange, let alone all of them.
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