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What to do about R&D?
foxrockssocks
Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
The changes to the Phoenix availability bring up the obvious issue of crafted kits becoming pointless if they aren't the experimental kits. However I think it is also apparent to observers that Cryptic's monetization strategy has shifted significantly towards R&D promo ship sales. Admiralty itself has for a long time given us a glut of R&D materials as well.
The end result is obvious, outside of building specific equipment for Pen mods or the few unique things R&D makes, there isn't much reason for it any longer while the materials are becoming close to worthless. From my perspective, the R&D boxes have essentially become a box of trash with the very rare diamond inside. I don't like to buy things with no realistic value. Realistically I'm not going to win a ship, I will just have a bunch of materials. But if I don't need to craft upgrade kits, any more, why would I ever want the boxes?
Clearly, I think, crafting is at a crisis point (Yes a crisis! Eject the core or we all die!) I've already suggested one solution which is really simple, to increase the upgrade chance for all crafted kits. The standard varieties of kits can go up to 10% and the experimental go up to 15%. The omega kits are still at 20%, and phoenix kits can stay at 5%. Other rarely offered kits should probably have their % upped as well, (how about Romulan Admiralty kits becoming actually desirable?) However, this change still doesn't solve the general problem that R&D isn't very useful, it would basically put us back to where we were before the Phoenix changes.
So what can be done? Short of expanding the value of R&D by making a lot of new things, one idea is to have it be used as an alternative method of getting fleet gear or even opening up fleet-locked trait slots. No don't be hyperbolic, I'm not talking about making fleet gear obsolete, the cost would have to be balanced out to keep that stuff more attractive, but lets be honest, what else are you going to do with thousands of thoron particles?
Another idea is to let us reroll crafted items. Does anyone really want a [Dis] conductive RCS? No. So offer up a process to reroll that with a bunch of raw materials in the mix. Like salvage/re-engineering but different.
You could also let people add [Pen] or other mods to reputation weapons and other non-crafted kinds, obviously removing an existing mod, with a significant cost in crafting materials. In fact you could do this by adding a new re-engineeering result in the slot machine, called say [modular] which you first have to get in a slot, 1 at most, to add in a crafted mod. This could then be changed repeatedly if you wanted via R&D processes. [over] today, [pen] tomorrow, actually what if I tried [thrust]? (Of course we could use some more interesting modifers to make that work better.)
Obviously you can also add entirely new items that people want.
Now keep in mind, revamping R&D will make those materials more valuable, which in turn ultimately increases the desirability of R&D boxes without the vain hope of getting a ship. People could buy them and not laugh when they say, "No ship, just crafting mats. I'm happy with that!"
The end result is obvious, outside of building specific equipment for Pen mods or the few unique things R&D makes, there isn't much reason for it any longer while the materials are becoming close to worthless. From my perspective, the R&D boxes have essentially become a box of trash with the very rare diamond inside. I don't like to buy things with no realistic value. Realistically I'm not going to win a ship, I will just have a bunch of materials. But if I don't need to craft upgrade kits, any more, why would I ever want the boxes?
Clearly, I think, crafting is at a crisis point (Yes a crisis! Eject the core or we all die!) I've already suggested one solution which is really simple, to increase the upgrade chance for all crafted kits. The standard varieties of kits can go up to 10% and the experimental go up to 15%. The omega kits are still at 20%, and phoenix kits can stay at 5%. Other rarely offered kits should probably have their % upped as well, (how about Romulan Admiralty kits becoming actually desirable?) However, this change still doesn't solve the general problem that R&D isn't very useful, it would basically put us back to where we were before the Phoenix changes.
So what can be done? Short of expanding the value of R&D by making a lot of new things, one idea is to have it be used as an alternative method of getting fleet gear or even opening up fleet-locked trait slots. No don't be hyperbolic, I'm not talking about making fleet gear obsolete, the cost would have to be balanced out to keep that stuff more attractive, but lets be honest, what else are you going to do with thousands of thoron particles?
Another idea is to let us reroll crafted items. Does anyone really want a [Dis] conductive RCS? No. So offer up a process to reroll that with a bunch of raw materials in the mix. Like salvage/re-engineering but different.
You could also let people add [Pen] or other mods to reputation weapons and other non-crafted kinds, obviously removing an existing mod, with a significant cost in crafting materials. In fact you could do this by adding a new re-engineeering result in the slot machine, called say [modular] which you first have to get in a slot, 1 at most, to add in a crafted mod. This could then be changed repeatedly if you wanted via R&D processes. [over] today, [pen] tomorrow, actually what if I tried [thrust]? (Of course we could use some more interesting modifers to make that work better.)
Obviously you can also add entirely new items that people want.
Now keep in mind, revamping R&D will make those materials more valuable, which in turn ultimately increases the desirability of R&D boxes without the vain hope of getting a ship. People could buy them and not laugh when they say, "No ship, just crafting mats. I'm happy with that!"
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
"Alternate methods" cannibalize existing sources, that's not good. But crafting could still be made to interact with other sources of gear, for example to produce generic versions of one-off set-piece weapons that otherwise can't be produced at all. There are many mission-reward weapons with unique visuals, as well as the secondary energy type rep weapons that players have asked for non-set versions of to make a matching full ship loadout.
These could be unlocked to craft by running a project that consumes the original set version (so there remains incentive to get the originals). Perhaps even multiple copies of it, such as by unlocking a single randomly-selected weapon type per consumed item (beam array/dual bank, single/dual/heavy cannons, turrets, maybe omnibeam/wide-arc DHC).
Raising the quality increase chance as suggested in the Phoenix thread would work too.
I do use the Superior kits to top off increases to Mark XV but that's an edge case.
The R&D packs were already almost worthless so Cryptic ought to take another look at them and add more of the non-mat items into each pack.
Whatever you think kits are, they are not what you are referring to so your post is very confusing. You are not talking about kit modules. I guess you are talking about tech upgrades? No idea.
The crafting system has been obsolete for a while now. I only use it to craft consumables like batteries. Almost all of the mods were useless back when it first launched and now even pen is junk compared to recent lockbox weapons.
I'd honestly rather see the ability to take apart some of the mission reward items to acquire schematics to craft your own. For example you get the TNG Type 3 rifle, dismantle it, and then gain the ability to craft your own with various mods including crafting specific ones like Pen. Or maybe this could also be a way to introduce other types of gear. Dismantle a TNG Type 3, gain the ability to craft TNG Type 2 or the First Contact style rifle?
Maybe also include the ability to do that with some lockbox weapons, but due to their more exotic nature, tack on a minor Dilithium cost or something to "account for specialized tools and personnel needed to perform the work" or something. And to prevent this from devaluing lockbox weapons, make the crafted versions bind on pickup or something. If necessary have the ability to craft a PADD with the schematics for them that are account bound so you can spread them around your account if you have multiple crafters.
But people aren't crafting everything [pen]. They use rep items or sets which can't be [pen]. The idea I suggested specifically calls for upgrading possibilities for rep items, though I wouldn't limit it to that. That means more crafting uses than now. Removing the upgrade kits means no change to the current paradigm which is what I don't like.
I'm sorry the context should have made it obvious. Yes "tech upgrades." Pardon me for calling them kits, because "upgrade kits" makes far more sense because it indicates the item used to facilitate an upgrade, as opposed to "tech upgrade" which is rather vague as to what it actually refers to. Is it the item? The process? The result?
The R&D system was also invented well before kit frames and kit modules were in any way involved in it. I have always called them upgrade kits and that's not likely to change.
Now, of course you can use your lockbox weapons, but you'd like the R&D system more if you could use it to put a [pen] mod on them wouldn't you? That would give actual value to the system which is, per your own admission, pretty useless.
No one in the game refers to them as kits, doesn't matter what you choose to call it. But I guess we're wrong for not knowing your own made up ideas.
Yeah the crafting system as it's referred to is no longer relevant, at least to end-game players, for weapons at least. But adding stuff to it like deuterium surplus is great. Don't think they will ever allow mods to be added to any weapons in the game as that would take the power creep to absurd levels - imagine Terran disruptors or sensor-linked phasers with pen. Wouldn't count on it ever happening.
Originally you got a fixed level "kit" that had 1-5 powers. Both the level of the kit and the set of powers were fixed.
So an engineer might get a kit with combat supply and turret fabrication. You were stuck with the combinations Cryptic offered you. and as you leveled up your kit got more and more underpowered until you replaced it.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Legacy_Kits
That is, kits have always been the power things not the upgrade things (in STO).
Yea... my main used the old Fire Team kit. Even now I still use modified Fire Team loadout for kit modules.
If something required several of the Common to Rare Materials to be put together, it also might allow for the creation of a new material. Just like combining Iron & Carbon make Steel, then several of the more common types, would be allowed to forge a new Higher quality material. Perhaps required by a few new items...
They could be completed by players who have R&D at 20 combining lower quality items in one new item in 1-2 different schools. Possibly it might also give a few new items to craft with them...
On the lockbox part, perhaps something could be crafted to change what something is, so a beam array could be converted into an omni or a dual beam array.
Just don't bother with R&D.
The game is ridiculously easy. So if R&D causes you even the slightest of worries. Rest assured, it is completely unnecessary.
R&D boxes are worthless to most people. After playing the game awhile you have a ton of crafting mats. And with Repuation and lockbox stuff being better, why craft anything?
If they weren't worthless Cryptic wouldn't have found it necessary to stick the "best" ships in them just to get people to buy them, would they? Honestly, I'd have rather bought lockboxes since those contain things I don't have; like new weapons, powers, & etc. I guess 10 lobi is more useful than a crappy Kit power that ends up on the Exchange for 100k EC, but you need 900 to get a ship and the only other stuff you get is a pile of crafting mats most don't care about.
Since Cryptic wants you to spend more Dil upgrading stuff, they've kinda boxed themselves in with not being able to progress crafting like other games do. Maybe if they added crafting recipes for weapon types from OOP lockboxes it'd give people reason to craft. Since only those blessed by RNGesus would be able to supply those older weapon types. Or craftable doodads that let you add PEN or some other new modifier to equipment? Craftable Vanity Shields? Build an android officer?
There's lots of things they could do, but anything good would probably 'step on the toes' of other profitability.
Problem of a now totally invalid system solved.
Jep that's the big upside of the change. 20 minutes of annoyance every day just gone.
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Obviously they could indeed unlock different but related items.
I don't support the idea of enabling people to craft [Pen] into everything just for it's own sake, because that's reducing diversity (not to mention largely unnecessary). But if they were to do that, the best way to avoid devaluing the original source (lockbox or otherwise) would be to simply require the original items as an ingredient in the crafting recipe. That is, you could craft lockbox beam arrays and hope for [Pen], but only by consuming one (or more?) of the same beam array each time.
Yes, everyone wanted to "upgrade kits" back in the day. You still can't though. You can "upgrade kit frames" or "upgrade kit modules" but not "upgrade kits" because they were separated. I remember a few years ago the old kits still worked, but after I came back to the game I found all the old kits in my bank had no powers anymore.
Anyway, the issue I have is that "tech upgrade" is insanely non-specific. If someone says, "I want some tech upgrades," what do they mean? Are they talking about the items for upgrading gear in STO? Are they just talking generally about upgrading gear? Or are they talking about upgrading their phone, camera, workplace, etc IRL? The term is way too general which is why I don't use it, so I call the items "upgrade kits." I've never had issues with people not understanding it, before.
On topic.
This is an interesting idea. I don't really see much value in the lockbox weapons myself, but on the chance that I want an older one, good luck finding it. Maybe this could be an infinity box thing to let you build ones from older lockboxes that have a rare supply. They should probably only create account bound weapons, though. Or maybe they come in stacks as consumable ingredients, so you need a schematic to be consumed to make the weapons.
It would be a little funny to see schematics return to crafting too. I still have a few of those in some banks.
The visuals has always annoyed me, because I'm always using multiple sets. There's no way to match them. It baffles me any time I suggest visual weapons and people shoot it down. Going on your idea, though, being able to change a weapons visual by using an existing weapon on it would be a good use for crafting. Want all your weapons to look like a lockbox weapon? Get a bunch of them and process each weapon consuming the lockbox weapon and some mats. Or alternatively, turn that lockbox weapon into a standard weapon visual by consuming some standard weapon.
I think consuming weapons to create [pen] is okay, but it would definitely cripple the supply of lockbox weapons as people burn them all so there would need to be some other changes somewhere. That is why I think it would still be better to use lots of R&D mats, because burning them would increase their value which would also make R&D box rewards not a pile of trash.
Little jelly, tbh; but then I consoled myself, thinking that the only useful thing one can do with 20 billion EC, is buy those ships back. :P
1. Add Warp Cores and Singularity Cores to the Aegis Set.
2. Add a console to the Wide Arc Dual Heavy Cannon/Omni-directional Beam Array and Particle Emission Plasma Torpedo Launcher and make it into a set.
3. Add an Experimental Weapon and Secondary Deflector.
4. Add a Personal Shield and Armor to the TR-116B Sniper Rifle and make it into a set with a tailor unlock.
Wouldn't that just be the same as a T6 upgrade token, in essence?
It is annoying if you want to run sets as 2/2 to really want engines/deflector of some 4 piece set so then you can't use a 3 piece set as the other 2. It would be nice, but I don't see it as a long term thing that makes R&D useful, and that goes for the ground set too. It would be nice, but it isn't a long term solution.
Also what do you mean by add a secondary deflector? As a set piece? Obviously we can already make secondary deflectors so I'm not sure what you're suggesting on that.
I don't know exactly what you're suggesting here. Just add the missing BOFF station? Or make them into their T6 version if they have one? If they don't have a T6 version what then?
I'll presume its to add the missing BOFF station, which while nice, I think actually requires a pretty massive undertaking to make the ships work that way. I guess we could call them t5ui ships, i for improved. The other problem is, what about T6 ships? Shouldn't there be something to craft for them? I don't know how many people don't have a T6 ship, especially with the free coupons, so that is probably the better tier of ship to look at improving via R&D.
I suspect they'll do nothing about this and pretty much let yet another great feature of the game quickly die because of neglect, kind of like the Foundry over the years.
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They are still sold at usual price so it didn't happen.
No, that actually *did* happen.