I propose a rate of 500-600 Dil per Zen in its actual price (so 3 000 000 - 3 600 000 Dil instead of 6000 zen, adjustable with progress)
There are multiple reasons why this would be a good idea:
- It is a currency obtained in game, unmediated my market prices, so it is fair for people who play the game.
- The price point would help the dil/zen exchange that is currently failing to self regulate. By making dil more valuable, prices should return to a more palatable level. The market should run out of zen soon, which has already happened once, when infinity lockboxes first came out.
- People who want to spend zen to get the buyout can still get it. I mean if you're ready to spend 60$ for this, you should be willing to pay 80, amirite?
What do you think?
The initial proposition is amended as follows:
Price point could be fixed at the beginning of the buyout period (above or below current going rate of dil->zen) or dynamic during the buyout period with exchange rates. We could aim for an equivalent to 3000 or 6000 zen or anything in between, TBD.
The MAIN difference is that the currency used is dilithium, which means that the currency being bought back by cryptic is dilithium, restricting the amount of dil in circulation (a dil sink).
It also means the underlying standard for the buyout is hours played (dil), not money spent (zen).
That might confuse the majority of casuals who have never used the dil exchange. Most casuals don't have 3 million dil on hand so they would need to figure out how to buy it.
Cryptic might also prefer the cash monies from busy or lazy people over adding a dil sink.
Players can already buyout the event with Dilithium by converting to Zen at a lower rate than this proposal.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
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That might confuse the majority of casuals who have never used the dil exchange. Most casuals don't have 3 million dil on hand so they would need to figure out how to buy it.
Cryptic might also prefer the cash monies from busy or lazy people over adding a dil sink.
I refuse to believe that people are so ignorant!
You are entitled to your own beliefs, even if they are wrong
As for cash monies, under my proposal, they would actually increase
Hmm. Dil store sales give Cryptic no income. Your claim appears to be that zen purchases to spend in the dilex will make up for zen that would have been given directly to Cryptic in the C-Store?
Yeah, whats funny is also this comment the OP made
"People who want to spend zen to get the buyout can still get it. I mean if you're ready to spend 60$ for this, you should be willing to pay 80, amirite?"
At least from my viewpoint. The OP wants the system changed to benefit himself and others, at the expense of people who may decide to buyout straight from day one (I think personally they are nuts to do this, but as long as they dont put themselves into financial trouble doing it, it is there decision as they are adults)
Also OP, Cryptic are very fair to players, increasing so of late. At minimum you have the potential to earn three full T6 starships every year for very little. Plus your proposal could significantly cut into Cryptic's revenue stream and capabilities. This system they have designed allows you to earn the ship. If you cant, you buy out the rest of the tokens with zen at a ever decreasing rate depending on how far you have managed to proceed.
Cryptic still need to earn money. So far from what I have seen, this system is a nice balance between playing the game and earning free stuff, while at the same time diversifying cryptic's capability to fund the game's development.
And finally, I'm saying that it won't affect cryptic's revenue per se, if people want to buy out, they will still be able to do so with zen that you exchange to dil.
You'd be creating an unnecessary step for players who would simply want to buyout the reward by requiring them to convert bought Zen into Dilithium, not to mention, you cannot fix the conversion rate of Zen to Dilithium as the market is in constant flux, so players would pay more or less from one event to another depending on the conversion rate at any given time. So, no, leaving it as a Zen purchase is best, because players will know exactly what they would be paying at any given moment during the course of an event and from one event to the next. If you want to create a Dilithium sink, then it needs to be something else, not the event buyout.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Like my cohort pointed out, you can already farm out dilithium and change it over to zen without ever having to spend a dime. The other thing you need to keep in mind is just how much 3 million dilithium actually is. You're talking nearly 1/3 of a toon's dilithium cap. That's not a small amount of dilithium for one person. For folks like myself who have 20+ toons that can grind out dilithium in a day, that may not be that big of a deal, However for someone who isn't as established and may only have 2-3 characters, farming up that much would take 125 days of refining dilithium assuming they had 3 toons. That's just a hair over 4 months. Alot of folks would typically prefer to just drop a bit of cash at that point and be done with it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
the system wants the rates this high currently. if this was not the case, the team could just bring a new fleet holding. or phoenix boxes without extra discounts just like in its first run
I agree with everyone else. Why would people buy dilithium to 'pay' for this buyout when it's much easier (and cheaper) to simply use the zen to buy it out?
Sorry, this idea has no merit, IMO.
Like you, I play for my rewards, so it doesn't really affect me one way or another, but my opinion is still that it's a very bad idea.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Also, the previous way of Buyout (10 TFO-vouchers and 1 u-tech-upgrade) was for Zen as well, meaning it's really a Little too late for revolutionary changes here. In principle it's the same thing, minus the upgrade.
And finally, I'm saying that it won't affect cryptic's revenue per se, if people want to buy out, they will still be able to do so with zen that you exchange to dil.
You'd be creating an unnecessary step for players who would simply want to buyout the reward by requiring them to convert bought Zen into Dilithium, not to mention, you cannot fix the conversion rate of Zen to Dilithium as the market is in constant flux, so players would pay more or less from one event to another depending on the conversion rate at any given time. So, no, leaving it as a Zen purchase is best, because players will know exactly what they would be paying at any given moment during the course of an event and from one event to the next. If you want to create a Dilithium sink, then it needs to be something else, not the event buyout.
You have not given any reason why this sink can't be dilithium. the price would be fixed - in dilithium. It's not unreasonable that the given price of a buyout be somewhat adjusted to the current going rate of dilithium. Also, since events are unique, the idea of a different price from one to the other is not unsurmountable.
At the same time, I have little compassion for people who buy out the event; their peace of mind as buyers is of little consequence. That is the price to pay to bypass playing the game.
The fact you can convert Dil into Zen, and use that Zen to buyout makes it a Dil sink in itself if people want to use this option. You are being wholly unreasonable dismissing what the two Mods have told you. They have given you the exact avenue you requested, with the exception of not making this MORE expensive, for which you ask!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
And finally, I'm saying that it won't affect cryptic's revenue per se, if people want to buy out, they will still be able to do so with zen that you exchange to dil.
You'd be creating an unnecessary step for players who would simply want to buyout the reward by requiring them to convert bought Zen into Dilithium, not to mention, you cannot fix the conversion rate of Zen to Dilithium as the market is in constant flux, so players would pay more or less from one event to another depending on the conversion rate at any given time. So, no, leaving it as a Zen purchase is best, because players will know exactly what they would be paying at any given moment during the course of an event and from one event to the next. If you want to create a Dilithium sink, then it needs to be something else, not the event buyout.
You have not given any reason why this sink can't be dilithium. the price would be fixed - in dilithium. It's not unreasonable that the given price of a buyout be somewhat adjusted to the current going rate of dilithium. Also, since events are unique, the idea of a different price from one to the other is not unsurmountable.
At the same time, I have little compassion for people who buy out the event; their peace of mind as buyers is of little consequence. That is the price to pay to bypass playing the game.
The fact you can convert Dil into Zen, and use that Zen to buyout makes it a Dil sink in itself if people want to use this option. You are being wholly unreasonable dismissing what the two Mods have told you. They have given you the exact avenue you requested, with the exception of not making this MORE expensive, for which you ask!
This. No reason to make it more expensive than it already is.
This person is beginning to sound like a troll.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
You have not given any reason why this sink can't be dilithium. the price would be fixed - in dilithium. It's not unreasonable that the given price of a buyout be somewhat adjusted to the current going rate of dilithium. Also, since events are unique, the idea of a different price from one to the other is not unsurmountable.
Unless you're specifically using the Zen to buy a fixed amount of Dilithium from a C-Store offering, then no, you cannot "fix" the price conversion of Zen to Dilithium. And Cryptic is not going to start selling Dilithium outright from the C-Store. This would totally mess up the Dilithium Exchange market.
Somewhat adjusted to the going rate? Then why not just go with the going rate? Either way, you're looking at a player paying a varying amount in real world money buying Zen to convert to Dilithium from one event to the next and at any given time during the run of any single event. And while the price difference may not be insurmountable, it's not a very fair business practice either to say Event A has a 250:1 conversion rate and Event B has a 500:1 conversion rate. And again, I'll say, you're adding in an unnecessary step for players who want to buyout with real world money.
At the same time, I have little compassion for people who buy out the event; their peace of mind as buyers is of little consequence. That is the price to pay to bypass playing the game.
Well, then, there's the problem. You lack compassion or empathy for your fellow players. No. The price to pay is not to deal with your lack of compassion. The price to pay is 6000Zen, adjusted down dynamically according to how much you play the event.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
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I propose a rate of 500-600 Dil per Zen in its actual price (so 3 000 000 - 3 600 000 Dil instead of 6000 zen, adjustable with progress)
Sorry, why would anyone want to pay a HIGHER dil/zen ratio to buyout the event than what we currently have? The event ship is already significantly overpriced in terms of the current zen cost of 6000 zen. Charging more than this zen equivalent in dil makes no sense.
There are multiple reasons why this would be a good idea:
- It is a currency obtained in game
I'm sorry, but the rate of earning dil in-game is so low that it usually isn't worth it to try to grind dil. For most players any large dil purchases would be derived from conversion of zen, not by in-game earning of dil. I never grind for dil because most dil grinds would give me an equivalent of around 100 Zen/hr. Since anyone with a job (or any sort of disposable income at all) can easily earn or obtain more than $1 USD per hour from other activities it is literally not worth their time to grind dil at all. I will still do certain events that have good dil rewards as they are basically "free" dil but this is only a tiny fraction of the dil/zen value I routinely spend on the game.
This makes no sense. The value of dil relative to zen is constantly fluctuating due to the in-game dil/zen exchange. Since the dil/zen ratio is constantly fluctuating you can see an increase of up to 100% or more over time when the dil/zen ratio goes from around 250 dil/zen to 500 dil/zen. There are frequently shifts within this range which means the value of dil can routinely fluctuate by a factor of 2 or more. This is far more volatile than the real-world value of zen in terms of USD value which has been comparatively stable since zen has existed in the game.
How is a fluctuating dil market any more or less "fair" than using zen, which is much less volatile in terms of real-world dollar value? Zen is usually fixed at a rate of $1 USD = 100 Zen ratio outside of certain discounts or sales. Usually this starts at 6% bonus zen if you buy at least 5000 zen and sometimes includes an additional15% bonus zen during charge sales. That means that, at most, the dollar cost of zen will only fluctuate by up to 21% (i.e., the maximum bonus from buying 5000 zen or more during a charge sale) rather than up to 100% or more in terms of the dil market.
- The price point would help the dil/zen exchange that is currently failing to self regulate.
What does this even mean? The market is self-regulating just fine because Cryptic has set the system up within certain limits and it is entirely player-driven within those limits. If you want to change the market value of dil in a meaningful way, then the way to do this is to create more meaningful dil sinks in the game which will naturallly encourage players to spend dil. Thinking that setting event ship buyouts in dil instead of zen will somehow help "regulate" the dil exchange is absurd.
By making dil more valuable, prices should return to a more palatable level. The market should run out of zen soon, which has already happened once, when infinity lockboxes first came out.
That makes no sense. The market never "runs out" of Zen unless players stop buying it from Crytpic which is like saying players have "run out" of USD to spend on the game. Once you purchase Zen it is "trapped" in the game in the form of convertible dil/zen value (which constantly fluctuates) until it is spent in some manner which effectively "removes" it from the dil/zen market. These "losses" of dil/zen are in turn replaced by new zen purchases and, to a lesser extent, dil grind from in-game activities (which, as I mentioned above, is negligible for any players who make large purchases as the cost for these is far in excess of what they could ever grind for in-game).
- People who want to spend zen to get the buyout can still get it. I mean if you're ready to spend 60$ for this, you should be willing to pay 80, amirite?
No, that's not how setting a reasonable value for something works. If you charge too much for something then people don't buy it at all. Many players have already pointed out that the 6000 Zen buyout is excessive for this event since it is double what Crytpic usually charges for a T6 ship which is generally worth 3000 Zen (or less when part of a ship pack). The remainder of the event items (i.e., Elachi weapons) are certainly not worth 3000 Zen on their own. If anything, the event ship buyout value should be closer to 3000 Zen, not 6000 Zen and certainly not any higher than what it already is. Your proposal would, if anything, have the opposite effect by making players unwilling to use the buyout option at all due to receiving an even lower buyout value for their zen. Those players would simply grind for it instead, or ignore the event entirely. I didn't even consider the 6000 Zen buyout option and have simply done the grind for it because the event ship is quite simply not worth 6000 zen to begin with.
I think you want to artificially influence the dil/zen ratio in a manner that goes against the market value of dil and benefits you personally, instead of allowing the actual value of dil to be determined by the robust player-driven economy that already exists in the game in the form of the dil exchange.
You don't fix the price of dilithium in the exchange, you fix the dilithium price at the beginning of the event to reflect market reality. In theory, you could even set the price at market value, dynamically so. So again, that is not insurmountable, but adding premium to buyouts wouldn't be far-fetched, it already IS a hefty premium, so by your argument the premium itself (and by extension, cryptic) is not compassionate.
No. You don't "fix" or "set" the price of Dilithium at all. The Dilithium Exchange is player driven. Cryptic influences it peripherally, not directly. Doing so for something like this would set a bad precedent.
The difference is the game will remove dilithium from circulation instead of zen. And yes, that would add a step for people who are doing their buyout from zen but that is entirely feasible. Besides, the in-game value of zen is already variable, from one day to the next, in game it WILL buy me a different amount of upgrades or phoenix boxes or whatever so that argument is moot: the currency is already not a "very fair practice" if we use your standard, which we should not (besides I don't think cryptic would enjoy one of its moderators saying their business practices are not fair). We'd just add that variability to another aspect of the game.
I don't think you understand. I'm not talking about in-game value. I'm talking about real-world value. In the real world Zen equals real world currency. You know exactly how much money you're spending when you buy Zen. Now, yes, in-game, Zen's value is variable from one day to the next, even one hour to the next. Today 1 Zen might buy more Dilithium than tomorrow or it might buy less. That's the problem. If one cannot obtain enough Dilithium from the conversion to afford your Dilithium buyout, then one would have to spend more real world money to buy more Zen to convert into more Dilithium. This is why a Dilithium buyout is bad for those who would chose to buyout: the cost in real world currency -> Zen -> Dilithium can change from hour to hour, day to day, event to event. A Zen buyout allows players to know EXACTLY how much real world money they would have to spend at ANY given time.
And I never said Cryptic's business practices are not fair. I said what you're suggesting wouldn't be fair. And attempting to play the "you're a moderator" card in order to shut me down is an underhanded debate tactic.
And it's not because moderators have chimed in that we all need to stop talking about this. This is an excellent discussion filled with interesting ideas and concepts and we should keep going! I still believe my economics are sound and my proposal corrects an inflationary problem in the game
Also, I am not a troll nor am I bent out of shape! The two who said that, please read about gaslighting!
Moderators have nothing to do with it. Perhaps others aren't not talking because they already recognize that it's a bad idea. Not much left to be said.
Again, I understand that you're looking for a way to remove Dilithium from the economy. This is not it.
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Cryptic might also prefer the cash monies from busy or lazy people over adding a dil sink.
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You are entitled to your own beliefs, even if they are wrong
Hmm. Dil store sales give Cryptic no income. Your claim appears to be that zen purchases to spend in the dilex will make up for zen that would have been given directly to Cryptic in the C-Store?
"People who want to spend zen to get the buyout can still get it. I mean if you're ready to spend 60$ for this, you should be willing to pay 80, amirite?"
At least from my viewpoint. The OP wants the system changed to benefit himself and others, at the expense of people who may decide to buyout straight from day one (I think personally they are nuts to do this, but as long as they dont put themselves into financial trouble doing it, it is there decision as they are adults)
Also OP, Cryptic are very fair to players, increasing so of late. At minimum you have the potential to earn three full T6 starships every year for very little. Plus your proposal could significantly cut into Cryptic's revenue stream and capabilities. This system they have designed allows you to earn the ship. If you cant, you buy out the rest of the tokens with zen at a ever decreasing rate depending on how far you have managed to proceed.
Cryptic still need to earn money. So far from what I have seen, this system is a nice balance between playing the game and earning free stuff, while at the same time diversifying cryptic's capability to fund the game's development.
You'd be creating an unnecessary step for players who would simply want to buyout the reward by requiring them to convert bought Zen into Dilithium, not to mention, you cannot fix the conversion rate of Zen to Dilithium as the market is in constant flux, so players would pay more or less from one event to another depending on the conversion rate at any given time. So, no, leaving it as a Zen purchase is best, because players will know exactly what they would be paying at any given moment during the course of an event and from one event to the next. If you want to create a Dilithium sink, then it needs to be something else, not the event buyout.
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Sorry, this idea has no merit, IMO.
Like you, I play for my rewards, so it doesn't really affect me one way or another, but my opinion is still that it's a very bad idea.
Because he told you that in fact it *can* be Dilithium - if you happen to have enough to convert to whatever amount of Zen you'd need.
The fact you can convert Dil into Zen, and use that Zen to buyout makes it a Dil sink in itself if people want to use this option. You are being wholly unreasonable dismissing what the two Mods have told you. They have given you the exact avenue you requested, with the exception of not making this MORE expensive, for which you ask!
This. No reason to make it more expensive than it already is.
This person is beginning to sound like a troll.
Unless you're specifically using the Zen to buy a fixed amount of Dilithium from a C-Store offering, then no, you cannot "fix" the price conversion of Zen to Dilithium. And Cryptic is not going to start selling Dilithium outright from the C-Store. This would totally mess up the Dilithium Exchange market.
Somewhat adjusted to the going rate? Then why not just go with the going rate? Either way, you're looking at a player paying a varying amount in real world money buying Zen to convert to Dilithium from one event to the next and at any given time during the run of any single event. And while the price difference may not be insurmountable, it's not a very fair business practice either to say Event A has a 250:1 conversion rate and Event B has a 500:1 conversion rate. And again, I'll say, you're adding in an unnecessary step for players who want to buyout with real world money.
Well, then, there's the problem. You lack compassion or empathy for your fellow players. No. The price to pay is not to deal with your lack of compassion. The price to pay is 6000Zen, adjusted down dynamically according to how much you play the event.
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Don't take it personally.
Sorry, why would anyone want to pay a HIGHER dil/zen ratio to buyout the event than what we currently have? The event ship is already significantly overpriced in terms of the current zen cost of 6000 zen. Charging more than this zen equivalent in dil makes no sense.
I'm sorry, but the rate of earning dil in-game is so low that it usually isn't worth it to try to grind dil. For most players any large dil purchases would be derived from conversion of zen, not by in-game earning of dil. I never grind for dil because most dil grinds would give me an equivalent of around 100 Zen/hr. Since anyone with a job (or any sort of disposable income at all) can easily earn or obtain more than $1 USD per hour from other activities it is literally not worth their time to grind dil at all. I will still do certain events that have good dil rewards as they are basically "free" dil but this is only a tiny fraction of the dil/zen value I routinely spend on the game.
This makes no sense. The value of dil relative to zen is constantly fluctuating due to the in-game dil/zen exchange. Since the dil/zen ratio is constantly fluctuating you can see an increase of up to 100% or more over time when the dil/zen ratio goes from around 250 dil/zen to 500 dil/zen. There are frequently shifts within this range which means the value of dil can routinely fluctuate by a factor of 2 or more. This is far more volatile than the real-world value of zen in terms of USD value which has been comparatively stable since zen has existed in the game.
How is a fluctuating dil market any more or less "fair" than using zen, which is much less volatile in terms of real-world dollar value? Zen is usually fixed at a rate of $1 USD = 100 Zen ratio outside of certain discounts or sales. Usually this starts at 6% bonus zen if you buy at least 5000 zen and sometimes includes an additional15% bonus zen during charge sales. That means that, at most, the dollar cost of zen will only fluctuate by up to 21% (i.e., the maximum bonus from buying 5000 zen or more during a charge sale) rather than up to 100% or more in terms of the dil market.
What does this even mean? The market is self-regulating just fine because Cryptic has set the system up within certain limits and it is entirely player-driven within those limits. If you want to change the market value of dil in a meaningful way, then the way to do this is to create more meaningful dil sinks in the game which will naturallly encourage players to spend dil. Thinking that setting event ship buyouts in dil instead of zen will somehow help "regulate" the dil exchange is absurd.
That makes no sense. The market never "runs out" of Zen unless players stop buying it from Crytpic which is like saying players have "run out" of USD to spend on the game. Once you purchase Zen it is "trapped" in the game in the form of convertible dil/zen value (which constantly fluctuates) until it is spent in some manner which effectively "removes" it from the dil/zen market. These "losses" of dil/zen are in turn replaced by new zen purchases and, to a lesser extent, dil grind from in-game activities (which, as I mentioned above, is negligible for any players who make large purchases as the cost for these is far in excess of what they could ever grind for in-game).
No, that's not how setting a reasonable value for something works. If you charge too much for something then people don't buy it at all. Many players have already pointed out that the 6000 Zen buyout is excessive for this event since it is double what Crytpic usually charges for a T6 ship which is generally worth 3000 Zen (or less when part of a ship pack). The remainder of the event items (i.e., Elachi weapons) are certainly not worth 3000 Zen on their own. If anything, the event ship buyout value should be closer to 3000 Zen, not 6000 Zen and certainly not any higher than what it already is. Your proposal would, if anything, have the opposite effect by making players unwilling to use the buyout option at all due to receiving an even lower buyout value for their zen. Those players would simply grind for it instead, or ignore the event entirely. I didn't even consider the 6000 Zen buyout option and have simply done the grind for it because the event ship is quite simply not worth 6000 zen to begin with.
I think you want to artificially influence the dil/zen ratio in a manner that goes against the market value of dil and benefits you personally, instead of allowing the actual value of dil to be determined by the robust player-driven economy that already exists in the game in the form of the dil exchange.
No. You don't "fix" or "set" the price of Dilithium at all. The Dilithium Exchange is player driven. Cryptic influences it peripherally, not directly. Doing so for something like this would set a bad precedent.
I don't think you understand. I'm not talking about in-game value. I'm talking about real-world value. In the real world Zen equals real world currency. You know exactly how much money you're spending when you buy Zen. Now, yes, in-game, Zen's value is variable from one day to the next, even one hour to the next. Today 1 Zen might buy more Dilithium than tomorrow or it might buy less. That's the problem. If one cannot obtain enough Dilithium from the conversion to afford your Dilithium buyout, then one would have to spend more real world money to buy more Zen to convert into more Dilithium. This is why a Dilithium buyout is bad for those who would chose to buyout: the cost in real world currency -> Zen -> Dilithium can change from hour to hour, day to day, event to event. A Zen buyout allows players to know EXACTLY how much real world money they would have to spend at ANY given time.
And I never said Cryptic's business practices are not fair. I said what you're suggesting wouldn't be fair. And attempting to play the "you're a moderator" card in order to shut me down is an underhanded debate tactic.
Moderators have nothing to do with it. Perhaps others aren't not talking because they already recognize that it's a bad idea. Not much left to be said.
Again, I understand that you're looking for a way to remove Dilithium from the economy. This is not it.
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