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Possible early divergence in Kelvin-Timeline?

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,559 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 716 Arc User
    We are probably not helped much by the fact that universe, timeline and reality are all used interchangeably. But there couldn't really be a clean point of convergence as we know it. Changing everything from 22-something actually changes several events before it including Zefram Cochrane's warp flight for example. So without it overriding the timeline and existing parallel it is more than plausible that the two realities do not share an exact same past leading up until the events of the JJ film.

    The Franklin say, could easily have never existed in the Prime Universe.

    The short of it, they can do whatever they want with the Kelivinverse past, present or future and have it not mean squat. Too bad we had to stop the Sphere Builders from going all Anti-Monitor on it. I mean at least it could have gone out in an exciting story instead of just getting cancelled because they lost so much goodwill after Into Darkness.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,726 Arc User
    Changing events from the Kelvin point does seem to imply the possibility that the Ent-D would not encounter the Borg and alert them to our presence too soon, which I think would in fact return Cochrane's first warp flight to what it was implied to be in TOS - an attempt at genuine scientific exploration, without the interference of the TNG crew. That wouldn't really alter much, other than removing the Borg from the polar ice in ENT:"Regeneration" - I certainly don't see any reason why it would remove the development of UESPA Star Fleet combat craft during the Romulan War, which appears to be the backstory of the Franklin.

    On the other hand, Gary Seven's mission in 1968 would have gone off without a hitch, as Kirk and company would not have been present to interfere with his beaming to Earth and subsequent infiltration of NASA to stop the launch of the orbital nuclear platform. Again, only insignificant details of history are changed, not broad outlines. Same for Edith Keeler in 1930s Chicago - she gets hit by a truck just randomly, as history originally dictated before McCoy screwed it up. (Or possibly gets killed by something else - pre-WW2 Chicago didn't lack for ways that a social reformer might die.)

    Basically it radically alters the timeline from that point forward, but looking backward there shouldn't be any major effects. (I know what Simon Pegg said, but from a standpoint of temporal mechanics, it doesn't make sense.)
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,833 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Changing events from the Kelvin point does seem to imply the possibility that the Ent-D would not encounter the Borg and alert them to our presence too soon, which I think would in fact return Cochrane's first warp flight to what it was implied to be in TOS - an attempt at genuine scientific exploration, without the interference of the TNG crew. That wouldn't really alter much, other than removing the Borg from the polar ice in ENT:"Regeneration" - I certainly don't see any reason why it would remove the development of UESPA Star Fleet combat craft during the Romulan War, which appears to be the backstory of the Franklin.

    On the other hand, Gary Seven's mission in 1968 would have gone off without a hitch, as Kirk and company would not have been present to interfere with his beaming to Earth and subsequent infiltration of NASA to stop the launch of the orbital nuclear platform. Again, only insignificant details of history are changed, not broad outlines. Same for Edith Keeler in 1930s Chicago - she gets hit by a truck just randomly, as history originally dictated before McCoy screwed it up. (Or possibly gets killed by something else - pre-WW2 Chicago didn't lack for ways that a social reformer might die.)

    Basically it radically alters the timeline from that point forward, but looking backward there shouldn't be any major effects. (I know what Simon Pegg said, but from a standpoint of temporal mechanics, it doesn't make sense.)

    Temporal mechanics in Star Trek is whatever the writers need it to be this week.
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 716 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Changing events from the Kelvin point does seem to imply the possibility that the Ent-D would not encounter the Borg and alert them to our presence too soon, which I think would in fact return Cochrane's first warp flight to what it was implied to be in TOS - an attempt at genuine scientific exploration, without the interference of the TNG crew. That wouldn't really alter much, other than removing the Borg from the polar ice in ENT:"Regeneration" - I certainly don't see any reason why it would remove the development of UESPA Star Fleet combat craft during the Romulan War, which appears to be the backstory of the Franklin.

    On the other hand, Gary Seven's mission in 1968 would have gone off without a hitch, as Kirk and company would not have been present to interfere with his beaming to Earth and subsequent infiltration of NASA to stop the launch of the orbital nuclear platform. Again, only insignificant details of history are changed, not broad outlines. Same for Edith Keeler in 1930s Chicago - she gets hit by a truck just randomly, as history originally dictated before McCoy screwed it up. (Or possibly gets killed by something else - pre-WW2 Chicago didn't lack for ways that a social reformer might die.)

    Basically it radically alters the timeline from that point forward, but looking backward there shouldn't be any major effects. (I know what Simon Pegg said, but from a standpoint of temporal mechanics, it doesn't make sense.)

    While you make good points the very nature of changing timelines can be that even the smallest thing could have unforeseen spiralling consequences. I would argue that potentially no event is insignificant.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,082 Arc User
    Temporal Mechanics is a headache.

    Honestly the way I see it... the Kelvin Timeline does diverge from that exact moment in time. No early divergence. We know that the events of Enterprise happened in the Prime Timeline, and there are events from that time period mentioned in Beyond, indicating they happened there too.

    Main ones being the Xindi Conflict and Earth-Romulan War.

    The big thing with Time Travel is that you go back far enough, something as insignificant as stepping on a bug could radically alter history. That one bug's descendants could have been a catylist for human evolution and stuff like that.
    Kinda scary stuff.
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  • zedbrightlander1zedbrightlander1 Member Posts: 13,470 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Star Trek Beyond writer Simon Pegg has said the KT is divergent across its entire history, before and after the 09 movie.

    Which, really, should be obvious considering the rather extreme amount of time-travel going on. Changes to the future are bound to have an effect on the past as well.

    Since TOS Enterprise is so much smaller than Abrams Enterprise, the entire timeline hugely divergent. Wouldn't surprise me if the Zefram Cochrane story line is greatly divergent.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,726 Arc User
    The Constitution class of heavy cruisers weren't commissioned until well after the Kelvin incident. The destruction of the Kelvin by an enemy that literally popped up out of nowhere radicalized Starfleet, which started building ships intended for war rather than peaceful exploration - the admiralty started to expect things like that to happen.

    Also, the designers might claim that the movie Ent is the size of a Galaxy-class, but the only part of her that seems to fit that size is the shuttle bay. Everything else, including when the saucer gets a hole punched in it revealing two decks, fits something more the size of the ship from TOS.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,082 Arc User
    People have actually used visual cues to measure the ship.
    monsterprise.jpg

    http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/new_enterprise_comment.htm

    The size that has the LEAST number of things you have to disregard is about 366 meters. While still a bit bigger than the TOS version, its more in line visually than the 700+ meter size that shuttlebay calls for, which is almost instantly countered next scene when Pike takes a shuttle out to the Narada.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    Another early divergence is the fact that the Eugenics wars kept getting pushed back, which was (according to Voyager) at least partially due to Chronowerx's "breakthroughs" in microelectronics focusing attention away from biosciences like genetic and viral research to a large extent.

    Otherwise the "superior intellect" and the effect of the series of gradually escalating brush wars (called the Eugenics Wars in TOS) pushed gravatic and related technologies to the point where near-lightspeed fast sublight ships converted from submarines existed by several decades into the 2000s, before WWIII instead of jumping from chemical rockets straight to warp as shown in First Contact (which makes the whole Khan thing a bit shaky since the Eugenics Wars were apparently just a sideshow of WWIII in the late TNG era stuff).

    In TOS, Cochrane did not launch his warp test ship from a silo in the North American Midwest, he launched it from the Alpha Centauri system (presumably using one of the fast-impulse ships as the testbed) instead of a chemical rocket driven ICBM for instance. Also it was more of a significant-though-incremental breakthrough instead of an out of the blue invention, in order for the timeline to work colony ships would probably have already been in flight to Alpha C by the time WWIII started.

    It is likely that the events of First Contact kicked an already existing drift caused by other temporal incursions into a slightly higher gear instead of being the ultimate root of the changes so Enterprise's meeting the Borg early due to Q might not be as critical a factor as it looks.

    Also, Orci originally said there might have been some lateral drift to the wormhole originally, and later on either Orci or Kurtzman (I am not sure which, and I am not in a position to go on a deep dive looking for the articles atm) actually supported the idea of the split being a "bend" with ripples going both ways in the new timeline rather than an abrupt diversion at the point Narada killed the Kelvin (both of which would serve the original purpose of the split, namely giving Paramount a freer hand in plotting without disturbing anything CBS may decide to do in Prime).
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,890 Arc User
    Well, I'd argue that the timeline changes didn't impact on anything that happened pre-Nadara incursion myself.

    I mean, from what we can tell:
    - The events of 'Enterprise' still occurred as we saw them, and we saw a model of an NX class starship on Admiral Marcus' desk in 'Into Darkness'.
    - The Botany Bay was obviously still launched, and again it seems like the reason Khan and his companions stole that ship/fled Earth was the same.
    - Both the Xindi and Earth-Romulan war still happened (evidenced by dialouge from Krall/Edison in 'Beyond')

    With that in mind, it's interesting to consider that certain things that occurred in the 'Prime' timeline should still occur in the Kelvin Timeline. For example:
    -V'ger should still be en-route to Earth, with no change in motivation for doing so
    - Same applies to the Whale probe
    - Praxis' fate should technically be unchanged
    - The Nexus should still pass through the quadrant
    - The message the Borg in 'Regeneration' sent would still be received by the Borg of the timeline

    There are other examples, but the point is that even if there were timeline changes going backward as well as forward there is no reason to think that anything would've changed for any of the above.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,354 Arc User
    edited November 11
    praxis was apparently already shattered as of ID, so apparently either S31 under admiral marcus sabotaged mining operations there, or the narada incident caused the klingons to kick mining ops there into overdrive...which caused it to explode 30 years ahead of schedule

    so despite its fate being unchanged...the date it occurred WAS changed​​
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    - The message the Borg in 'Regeneration' sent would still be received by the Borg of the timeline

    That is assuming that a Starfleet crew in the Kelvin Timeline went back in time to stop the Borg from assimilating 21st Century Earth. There would be no Borg in Regeneration if the Borg never went to the 21st Century. The destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin reset all temporal incidents after it happened so some temporal incidents would never happen while new ones will happen. The Enterprise crew might not even need to go back to the 1980s to deal with the Whale probe.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited November 11
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Well, I'd argue that the timeline changes didn't impact on anything that happened pre-Nadara incursion myself.

    I mean, from what we can tell:
    - The events of 'Enterprise' still occurred as we saw them, and we saw a model of an NX class starship on Admiral Marcus' desk in 'Into Darkness'.
    - The Botany Bay was obviously still launched, and again it seems like the reason Khan and his companions stole that ship/fled Earth was the same.
    - Both the Xindi and Earth-Romulan war still happened (evidenced by dialouge from Krall/Edison in 'Beyond')

    With that in mind, it's interesting to consider that certain things that occurred in the 'Prime' timeline should still occur in the Kelvin Timeline. For example:
    -V'ger should still be en-route to Earth, with no change in motivation for doing so
    - Same applies to the Whale probe
    - Praxis' fate should technically be unchanged
    - The Nexus should still pass through the quadrant
    - The message the Borg in 'Regeneration' sent would still be received by the Borg of the timeline

    There are other examples, but the point is that even if there were timeline changes going backward as well as forward there is no reason to think that anything would've changed for any of the above.

    True, the major milestone events would still happen in some way, like the "fixed points in time" that Doctor Who talks about a lot in his series, but important details like the time they happen and the way that they happen could be considerably different.

    I pointed out some examples of that already, like the eugenics wars getting delayed by a half century or so in the post-TOS stuff, and no longer an independent thing of their own but rather combined with WWIII. And yes, Khan's group would still go into space in some sort of vehicle, though probably one of somewhat lower tech than they did in TOS because instead of gradually intensifying brush wars WWIII was shatteringly destructive right from the start which would suppress tech advances, not push them.

    Cochrane would still invent a warp drive whether he did it on Alpha Centauri using an impulse ship as a testbed (like TOS) or in Montana using an old chemical rocket ICBM (like First Contact), and the Romulan war would still happen whether the Romulans had cloaks yet or not, and a USS Enterprise would be commanded by James T. Kirk sometime in the 2260s.

    The events of ENT and First Contact are far less certain however, and could be shifted and changed as much as the eugenics wars were. For instance, in the movie the Vulcans arrived to witness a short Kittyhawk-like flight by a crude rocket fitted with warp drive launched from a Terra still largely shattered by WWIII but with a few relatively stable and prosperous areas like Bozeman. The planet became a sort of Vulcan protectorate and recovery project and humans would be dependent on the High Command for decades.

    In TOS the Vulcans would have discovered a planet that already had an interstellar colony and ships making trips back and forth between the two (though it might take them five or ten years to do so) along with a successful test of an early warp drive system. Earth and its colony would not be as beholden to the Vulcans as they were in ENT and the higher tech level would seriously influence the first "modern warp" drive vessel.

    In ENT Archer commanded the small and rather crude NX class Enterprise, in TOS the equivalent ship was bigger and more advanced than that, and Archer would have commanded the USS Bonaventure instead. Conversely, the Franklin shows that either the Kelvin timeline equivalent was even smaller than the ENT ship or the Franklin itself represented a smaller, "leaner and meaner" wartime variant of the NX.

    Fast forward to the mid 2200s, the TOS Enterprise was a very large heavily armored wartime battlecruiser (more than once it was mentioned that the class was the biggest the Federation had in fact) built in 2245. It was an extremely capable fighting ship able to take on not just one, but two D7s (albeit with some difficulty), fighting in warp at an average range of 40,000km, and up to at least 90,000km. And it was versatile enough to do that without sacrificing science and exploration capabilities.

    The Kelvin Enterprise was a larger, thin-skinned ship built in peacetime in 2258 with a generally lower (though sleeker-looking) tech level (except that it was driven by some sort of transwarp system that was faster than TOS-Enterprise used) with very poor combat abilities that focused on significantly inaccurate fire from short ranged weapons. They do not mention a war with the Klingons in the mid 2240s (perhaps the Narada was enough of a distraction to head it off) though apparently a milder form of the cold war still exists in that timeline for unknown reasons.

    The DSC version of Enterprise is much like the Kelvin one though it resembles the TOS one a lot more than the Kelvin one from the outside. It was built in 2245 in peacetime since whatever you want to call the big war with the Klingons in the 2240s did not happen then, being delayed about a decade or so and called "Burnham's war" informally and too short to actually develop new wartime ships like the TOS Constitution (and perhaps Kelvin's Freedom) class were. It too is apparently thin-skinned instead of heavily armored and is riddled with windows in sensitive areas like the bridge, and uses a rather crude and bulky fixed-configuration simple-button based control system that requires people to stand up to reach some of the controls instead of all being in arms-length of a seated person, to the point of requiring a larger room to fit it all in. Its fighting range is also very short, with poor fire control comparable to the Kelvin timeline Constitution class and it too seems to be incapable of the fighting in warp that was the standard doctrine in TOS.

    Just having the same milestones is really nothing, a lot of time travel paradox and crosstime stories have the same basic framework between instances but vastly different details over that skeleton like that.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,082 Arc User
    The Franklin was actually an older design than the NX, apparently being the first Warp 4 ship, whereas the NX was the first Warp 5. Its more likely the NX was based on the Franklin's class as a proven design layout and upgraded.

    As for the phasers in the Kelvin Timeline... its possible they switched from beams to rapidfire bolts because of the Narada's torpedos and the Kelvin's inability to shoot them down with beams. Better to throw up a "wall of lead" to counter torpedos than try and sweep a beam around.

    Also... in TOS (and Discovery) the Constitution Class was first launched in 2245, whereas the Klingon War was in the 2250s. So you can't say that the Discovery Connie was a product of war, because she existed before it started.

    And honestly... based on scan data reverse engineering, I would have put the Kelvin Connie at approx the same level as the Prime Ent-A in technology. Yes the reverse engineered tech is based on scanned 24th Century tech, but there's still only so much you can replicate.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,354 Arc User
    i would have just spent time creating better computer tracking and targeting instead of relying on spray and pray for dealing with incoming warheads​​
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The Franklin was actually an older design than the NX, apparently being the first Warp 4 ship, whereas the NX was the first Warp 5. Its more likely the NX was based on the Franklin's class as a proven design layout and upgraded.

    As for the phasers in the Kelvin Timeline... its possible they switched from beams to rapidfire bolts because of the Narada's torpedos and the Kelvin's inability to shoot them down with beams. Better to throw up a "wall of lead" to counter torpedos than try and sweep a beam around.

    Also... in TOS (and Discovery) the Constitution Class was first launched in 2245, whereas the Klingon War was in the 2250s. So you can't say that the Discovery Connie was a product of war, because she existed before it started.

    And honestly... based on scan data reverse engineering, I would have put the Kelvin Connie at approx the same level as the Prime Ent-A in technology. Yes the reverse engineered tech is based on scanned 24th Century tech, but there's still only so much you can replicate.

    They never gave a clear indication of whether the Freedom class came before or after the NX-01, just that it was the "first warp four ship", that is why I mentioned several possibilities for it. It could have come before Archer's ship, it could have replaced it in the Kelvin timeline, or it could be a newer ship like its registry number suggests. It would be rather ironic if it was either of the last two possibilities though considering how much faster the Kelvin ships are compared to the other timelines.

    Narada's torpedoes are very slow, a TOS ship would have had no trouble at all in hitting them with phasers, especially if they brought up a warp bubble like they did to hit the Orion intruder. Even today, a sophisticated fire control like the phalanx has beats filling the sky with inaccurate fire every time when trying to knock down missiles.

    Yes, the TOS Enterprise was launched in 2245 (we agree on something at least :) ), but the big war was in the 2240s as well. Roddenberry has said numerous times that it was an analogy to WWII, and that they had Star Trek "recent" history loosely following real-world history in order to make it easier to bring outside writers up to speed. The one you are thinking of is probably the proxy brushwar analogy to the Korean conflict in the 2250s that they also made references to, though the Federation managed to more or less avoid something corresponding to the Vietnam war unless you count the very abortive one the Organians put a permanent kibosh on.

    If Kelvin could get a clear scan in the first place (which from the dialog seems unlikely), and assuming it was transferred to the shuttlecraft that escaped, they must not have gotten very much or could not quite understand most of it since the only sign of anything more advanced than what they had in TOS (on an in-setting functional level, the cool factor from the improvement in movie production tech is irrelevant) were the transwarp-like stardrive and a small enough transporter to fit in a shuttle, the majority of the Kelvin tech lags behind TOS like their laughably poor ship combat systems, their weaksauce two-setting hand phasers, and dozens of other little backslides.
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