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Possible early divergence in Kelvin-Timeline?

iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 141 Arc User
So, i know the kelvin timeline is supposed to have started when spock/nero went through the blackhole/wormhole, but something in Beyond has confused me for some time.
"This is the USS Franklin, sir, can you believe it? First Earth ship capable of warp 4."
The NX-01 Enterprise was a warp 5 capable ship. How then is the NX-326 the first one capable of warp 4? Memory alpha only has the info from beyond and speculation on it's creation date based on that comment.
Was it a refitted nx test craft and rechristened afterwards?
Is this true in prime verse as well, or did was Kelvin an alternate reality already that was close enough until the major split.

Anyone have ideas?
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,350 Arc User
    or it could just mean they use the NX designation multiple times instead of using it as a catch-all for EVERY experimental ship

    so while their warp 4 testbed failed 325 times, the warp 5 one managed to succeed on the first try​​
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,075 Arc User
    edited September 3
    No. At that time NX was reserved for the NX class. If you look at some of the other ships they had different prefixes. I believe NV was also used, I think on the 22nd Century Intrepid class or whatever is considered the NV type.

    As for why the Franklin is NX-326, she was probably recomissioned with a new registry number when the Federation was founded, and they consolidated the various registry prefixes. At that time its possible that pre-Federation starships were given the NX registry number. Also note that in Enterprise, no Starfleet ship had the USS prefix in the name. Yet the Franklin does, which indicates she was recomissioned after the formation of the Federation.
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,848 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    So, i know the kelvin timeline is supposed to have started when spock/nero went through the blackhole/wormhole, but something in Beyond has confused me for some time.
    "This is the USS Franklin, sir, can you believe it? First Earth ship capable of warp 4."
    The NX-01 Enterprise was a warp 5 capable ship. How then is the NX-326 the first one capable of warp 4? Memory alpha only has the info from beyond and speculation on it's creation date based on that comment.
    Was it a refitted nx test craft and rechristened afterwards?
    Is this true in prime verse as well, or did was Kelvin an alternate reality already that was close enough until the major split.

    Anyone have ideas?

    It's JJ and company....little things like details and canon weren't important to them. If they understood canon then the Kelvin universe wouldn't exist.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @lianthelia said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > It's JJ and company....little things like details and canon weren't important to them. If they understood canon then the Kelvin universe wouldn't exist.

    1. JJ had nothing to do with Beyond.
    2. Canon has been inconsistent and self contradictory since TOS.
    3. The first experimental ship ever seen in Trek, USS Excelsior, never had an NX prefix.
    4. It's Kelvin Timeline, not universe.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,350 Arc User
    edited September 3
    The USS Excelsior (NX-2000, later NCC-2000) was a 23rd century Federation Excelsior-class starship operated by Starfleet. Excelsior was the prototype of her class.

    and there's even a picture


    latest?cb=20090606201729&path-prefix=en​​
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,075 Arc User
    After the 22nd Century, its genrally accepted that the NX prefix is used for experimental ships, which also applies to ships that are the first of their class.
    The first Defiant in DS9 had an NX registry.

    I think the main reason the USS Excelsior had the standard NCC registry is because after the Transwarp Drive failed, they refit her to use a standard Warp Drive and recommissioned her. And considering how much work was probably done to her between ST3 and ST6, it kinda makes sense.
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited September 3
    I've always thought it was odd how the Excelsior went from NX to NCC, but the Defiant remained NX al the way up until its destruction several years after launch.

    I've always wondered what actually happened to the Transwarp Experiment, canon never revealed anything about it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the prototype for the more advanced Warp Drives of TNG.
    tumblr_p7auh1JPC61qfr6udo4_500.gif
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 606 Arc User
    edited September 4
    tyler002 wrote: »
    I've always thought it was odd how the Excelsior went from NX to NCC, but the Defiant remained NX al the way up until its destruction several years after launch.

    I've always wondered what actually happened to the Transwarp Experiment, canon never revealed anything about it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the prototype for the more advanced Warp Drives of TNG.

    I imagine Nx was what they used in the earily days before the federation. Then it became NCC, Naval Construction Contract. Before they would use Nx as Navel Experimental. I'm guessing.
    Kelvin timeline the change caused by a demensional sigularity powerful enough to disrupt the subspace weapon. And allowed a form of demensional travel. The changes to the timeline was so disruptive. It caused another reality to form from its existance. Everything up to the arrival basically was everything from enterpise to Nero's arrival was the same as the prime universe but I imagine lacking the events of regeneration in enterprise given the timeline change in the future of that reality. . Because of the lack of the enterpise E which was vital for the time primeline to even be possible. Given that paradox. Because of that I imagine the borg didn't become a threat in the twenty forth century and became a threat sooner because of Neros vessel going by the comics they end up attacking in the 23rd instead of the 24th so the kelvins encountered the borg before the prime.

    Going by Kelvin comics. Timeline was so radically altered including the future and the past maybe even the way ships were made because of the kelvins destruction. So by itself Kelvin timeline is unique. Because of the destructive nature of the change. Its so radically different that even the federation basically falls within the twenty forth century to the dominion because the crew of ds9 might not have all there to prevent their release causing most of the bajorian Prophets to be wiped out all but one. Which forced the Q to bring the Enterprise to the future for some reason. At the end Q ends up becoming even more powerful because he had to merge with the last of the prophets to in order for the Q to defeat the Pah-Wraiths within the kelvin reality. Going by all that. You can say the Kelvin timeline differs greatly from the prime. For the reasons listed. So could it be the Franklin was a prime ship most likely yes. Was it like that in design possibly with shorter Nacelles maybe in the prime. Had the events happened to the prime version of the franklin that happened in the kelvin maybe or maybe not.
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    or it could just mean they use the NX designation multiple times instead of using it as a catch-all for EVERY experimental ship

    so while their warp 4 testbed failed 325 times, the warp 5 one managed to succeed on the first try​​

    from memory-alpha:
    "One of the most important starships in interstellar history, Enterprise (NX-01) was the culmination of the NX Project. The NX-01 was the first NX-class starship, launched by the United Earth Starfleet in 2151" The Franklin looks like a starship to me,and the named ships before NX-01 were not given a number, just used the greek alphabet.




    rattler2 wrote: »
    No. At that time NX was reserved for the NX class. If you look at some of the other ships they had different prefixes. I believe NV was also used, I think on the 22nd Century Intrepid class or whatever is considered the NV type.

    As for why the Franklin is NX-326, she was probably recomissioned with a new registry number when the Federation was founded, and they consolidated the various registry prefixes. At that time its possible that pre-Federation starships were given the NX registry number. Also note that in Enterprise, no Starfleet ship had the USS prefix in the name. Yet the Franklin does, which indicates she was recomissioned after the formation of the Federation.

    One ship in 2160 was the VK Velikan a DY-1200 class, so if they had other classes, why would they give the NX to a refitted ship predating NX-01. And what makes even less sense is: "Enterprise was retired in 2161 to make way for new, more advanced starships. It was then placed in a Federation museum, where it still remained in the 24th century"... so if they retired the more advanced Enterprise, why then would they recommission and possibly refit an older less advanced model?



  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    tyler002 wrote: »
    I've always thought it was odd how the Excelsior went from NX to NCC, but the Defiant remained NX al the way up until its destruction several years after launch.

    I've always wondered what actually happened to the Transwarp Experiment, canon never revealed anything about it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the prototype for the more advanced Warp Drives of TNG.

    We first see the Excelsior as NX-2000 in 2285 (or so) we see her as NCC-2000 in 2293 7 years later with no indication when the swap happened also this was in a time of relative peace.

    Where was the the Defiant lasted only 5 years in total (she was considered a failed design pre-2370) in her orginal form and this was during either active conflict or build up into one.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @shadowfang240 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > and there's even a picture
    >
    >
    > (Image)
    > ​​

    Ok fair enough, I forgot it had NX in TSFS, all other points remain.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,075 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    One ship in 2160 was the VK Velikan a DY-1200 class, so if they had other classes, why would they give the NX to a refitted ship predating NX-01. And what makes even less sense is: "Enterprise was retired in 2161 to make way for new, more advanced starships. It was then placed in a Federation museum, where it still remained in the 24th century"... so if they retired the more advanced Enterprise, why then would they recommission and possibly refit an older less advanced model?

    Probably recovering from losses during the Earth-Romulan War. Enterprise herself may have been decomissioned, but I don't think the entire NX fleet was.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Probably recovering from losses during the Earth-Romulan War. Enterprise herself may have been decomissioned, but I don't think the entire NX fleet was.

    Considering the decommissioning of Enterprise coincided with founding of the Federation it was probably a "posterity" move, preserving "the ship that Founded the Federation". Meanwhile usable prototypes are given a refit and comissioned into service. Franklin disappeared only a few years later at most.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited September 4
    When Orci wrote the Kelvin stuff he was not too concerned about the details because his idea was that the wormhole led to a close parallel instead of prime's direct past (and he is the one who created the Kelvin timeline idea in the first place so that should carry some weight). It wasn't until later than anyone started calling it the 2233 of the Prime timeline.

    Conversely, an interesting theory is that it actually was what prime looked like in 2233 but ENT (which in this theory is an artifact of the "First Contact" temporal incursion that never happened in Prime's original past) changed everything and would have eliminated it if not for the Narada causing it to branch off as a sort of safe (though highly changed in its own way) island. That theory revolves around the fact that in ENT they introduced phasers earlier than some of the throwaway dialog in TOS and TIS makes it, and both the Kelvin and the JJprize used plasma cannons in addition to a few (and presumagly highly experimental) phaser turrets.

    And no, those things that pop up like old-style Harpoon missile launchers are not the photon torpedo tubes, they clearly show that those are in the neck goiter the same way they are in the refit Enterprise of Prime (in addition to the broadside tubes shown in "Into Darkness") and they use pretty much standard photon torpedo SFX instead of the ENT plasma gun SFX that the popup turrets use.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,829 Arc User
    Umm, no, I used to converse regularly with Orci on the trekmovie message boards and he was very emphatic that it was not a parallel, it was the Prime past. Those comment threads still exist and can be rechecked at any time. I believe it was the very same thread where he told a "fan" to "TRIBBLE off", which lead to him losing the director seat for Beyond.

    I dunno where this crackpot stuff bubbles up from but when actual.proof exists to the contrary, yeah go try to sell the brooklyn bridge somewhere else.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 631 Arc User
    Since the reference was made in the Kelvin timeline, the Franklin reference has no bearing upon the true Prime universe. That simple...
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,725 Arc User
    truewarper wrote: »
    Since the reference was made in the Kelvin timeline, the Franklin reference has no bearing upon the true Prime universe. That simple...
    Except no, because up until USS Kelvin was destroyed by the "mining vessel" Nerada it was still Prime timeline. The point of divergence was when George Kirk sacrificed himself and the Kelvin to drive the Nerada off. Since the Franklin predated that, it would be from the same history as Prime.

    OTOH, the NX prefix was used during the time of the UFP to designate experimental craft like NX-2000 or NX-74205. This may have been in honor of UESPA's Star Fleet and their NX Program, or it might have been Naval eXperimental, but there you have it. So, was the Franklin outfitted with anything that UFP Starfleet might consider experimental?

    (As a side note, based on the fact that the warp scale was reworked for TNG and later, I believe it's reasonable to suppose that the "trans-warp" drive the Excelsior was originally fitted with was in fact a prototype of the improved warp drive that became Starfleet standard, and no relation whatsoever to the transwarp corridors used by the Borg.)
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,832 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    After the 22nd Century, its genrally accepted that the NX prefix is used for experimental ships, which also applies to ships that are the first of their class.
    The first Defiant in DS9 had an NX registry.

    So did the second one, for that matter. Ron Moore said she was supposed to be NCC-74205-A, but they didn't have the budget to redo all the CGI they were reusing for the benefit of a single episode.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,218 Arc User
    edited September 4
    Star Trek Beyond writer Simon Pegg has said the KT is divergent across its entire history, before and after the 09 movie.

    Which, really, should be obvious considering the rather extreme amount of time-travel going on. Changes to the future are bound to have an effect on the past as well.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 606 Arc User
    edited September 4
    warpangel wrote: »
    Star Trek Beyond writer Simon Pegg has said the KT is divergent across its entire history, before and after the 09 movie.

    Which, really, should be obvious considering the rather extreme amount of time-travel going on. Changes to the future are bound to have an effect on the past as well.

    I'd have to agree more with Simon Pegg. There is a reason why. Time Travel, not only changes the past but also some time travel has to happen for the timeline to be where it is. And its do to this concept right here. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Predestination_paradox
    There is many of them and the the event that caused the kelvin reality to be formed basically upended possibly all future pardoxes. Thus changing history maybe not where the federation doesn't exist but to the point where it will fall in the future timeline. First contact might not be a full predesination paradox but It very well is is predesination paradox even though its called a https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Pogo_paradox as without the enterprise e the borg would wipe out the federation and anything that has changed the timeline to where the enterprise e doesn't exist causes the borg to win and there is examples of this in the novelverse when time is changed to where the enterprise e didn't exist thus allowing the borg to win with nothing to stop them.
    Take out the Enterprise e and the borg win and change reality and the past. But the Kelvin event changed that and basically undid that pardox along with all others. So yeah there will be bound to be differences in the past of the kelvin timeline because of time travel predestination paradoxes not happening at all or having been uprooted to not have happened. Thus altering the past along with the future. So most of the time travel events like roswell new mexico with quark rom, nog and odo didn't happen the various time travel into the past in the next generation, ds9 orginial series and movies. So without those events, there would be no roswell aliens big timeline changer if that didn't happen and other things that the prime timeline has because of time travel.
  • thanatos9tthanatos9t Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    My personal headcanon/theory is that the USS Franklin was originally called the NX-Epsilon considering the NX-Delta was the warp 3 prototype and the NX-class ships are the first warp 5 capable ships.

    This is assuming the NX Project took only a single ship to get from Warp 3 to Warp 4.

    Following the Greek alphabet convention of the other NX prototypes there is also another prototype not mentioned in the show but that is too early to be the USS Franklin:
    • NX-Alpha (Warp 2)
    • NX-Beta (Warp 2.5)
    • NX-Gamma (Not mentioned in canon)
    • NX-Delta (Warp 3)
    • NX-Epsilon (Possibly USS Franklin, as it is the first Warp 4 ship)
    Following the formation of the Federation it was put back into service with a crew of former MACO officers, this would explain the USS prefix and higher registry number.

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  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 606 Arc User
    thanatos9t wrote: »
    My personal headcanon/theory is that the USS Franklin was originally called the NX-Epsilon considering the NX-Delta was the warp 3 prototype and the NX-class ships are the first warp 5 capable ships.

    This is assuming the NX Project took only a single ship to get from Warp 3 to Warp 4.

    Following the Greek alphabet convention of the other NX prototypes there is also another prototype not mentioned in the show but that is too early to be the USS Franklin:
    • NX-Alpha (Warp 2)
    • NX-Beta (Warp 2.5)
    • NX-Gamma (Not mentioned in canon)
    • NX-Delta (Warp 3)
    • NX-Epsilon (Possibly USS Franklin, as it is the first Warp 4 ship)
    Following the formation of the Federation it was put back into service with a crew of former MACO officers, this would explain the USS prefix and higher registry number.

    The Memory Alpha and Memory Beta has the class listed as the Freedom class. Which I imagine will be the name of the ship if its added to the game through a lockbox. . So its the Freedom Class not Epsilon going by the lore.
  • thanatos9tthanatos9t Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited September 4
    The Memory Alpha and Memory Beta has the class listed as the Freedom class. Which I imagine will be the name of the ship if its added to the game through a lockbox. . So its the Freedom Class not Epsilon going by the lore.

    NX-Epsilon, like NX-Alpha, NX-Beta etc would be the Name of the ship not the Class while it was a test ship.

    Prototype ships (unlike test ships) are not given a Class until it goes into service/production and they are often named after the first ship in the Class, e.g. USS Galaxy, USS Sovereign, USS Defiant etc.

    What I am proposing is that the Class (Freedom Class), Name (USS Frankin) and Registry (NX-326) was decided on when the vessel was put back into service as that would explain the higher registry, the fact that the ship was the called the first warp 4 vessel (despite the NX Class being the first Warp 5 vessel) and the fact that the ship has the 'USS' prefix as the pre-federation vessels on Enterprise did not have the USS prefix.

    "I walked away from the last great Time War. I marked the passing of the Time Lords. I saw the birth of the universe and watched as time ran out, moment by moment, until nothing remained. No time, no space. Just me!"
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited September 4
    so, i think WoG answers this even if they were talking about something else:
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/simon-pegg-has-a-canonical-explanation-for-why-sulu-is-1783511576

    "the Kelvin universe can evolve and change in ways that don’t necessarily have to follow the Prime Universe at any point in history, before or after the events of Star Trek ‘09" simon pegg

    edit: although i believe he only co-wrote Beyond, so maybe not. That said i haven't seen anything by the 09 and ItD writters refutting this statement or reasoning, which leads me to believe they agree with it( or just don't care enough to say he's wrong).

    edit 2: while trying to find an article i read that stated the nx-class, nit just the enterpise were decommissioned i found this thread on the first page of my google search...just tickled my funny bone and thought i'd share
  • thanatos9tthanatos9t Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited September 4
    iamjmph wrote: »
    so, i think WoG answers this even if they were talking about something else:
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/simon-pegg-has-a-canonical-explanation-for-why-sulu-is-1783511576

    "the Kelvin universe can evolve and change in ways that don’t necessarily have to follow the Prime Universe at any point in history, before or after the events of Star Trek ‘09" simon pegg

    edit: although i believe he only co-wrote Beyond, so maybe not. That said i haven't seen anything by the 09 and ItD writters refutting this statement or reasoning, which leads me to believe they agree with it( or just don't care enough to say he's wrong).

    edit 2: while trying to find an article i read that stated the nx-class, nit just the enterpise were decommissioned i found this thread on the first page of my google search...just tickled my funny bone and thought i'd share

    Chekov is also 4 years older in the new films, he was born in 2241 in the alternate timeline. The prime version was born in 2245 this makes him effectively an older brother.

    "I walked away from the last great Time War. I marked the passing of the Time Lords. I saw the birth of the universe and watched as time ran out, moment by moment, until nothing remained. No time, no space. Just me!"
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    Still wish that Anton Yelchin had not died. :(
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  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited September 4
    I found this on reddit. It's another decent explanation for the differences, although not WoG, it does make sense. It also allows Spock's explaination in 09:
    ""Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."
    "An alternate reality?"
    "Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."
    – Spock and Nyota Uhura, 2258 (Star Trek)"
    "Algernon_Asimov

    3 years ago

    My interpretation of the "changes go both ways" theory is not that the Kelvin universe was always separate. I interpret this as meaning that the Kelvin universe did not exist until Nero activated his time-travel using red matter. At that moment, he travelled back in time from the future of the Prime Universe (2387) to an earlier time in the Prime Universe (2233). As soon as he arrived in the past of the Prime Universe, in the year 2233, he created a second branching timeline going forward from the time of his arrival. Now, there was the original Prime future timeline and the new Kelvin future timeline, both going forward from 2233 AD.

    However, because the future includes other incidents of time travel into the past, Nero's change also altered those future time travel incidents, which therefore changed the past as well. Suddenly, the new future timeline branch that Nero created also had a new past to go with it - and it broke away entirely from the Prime Universe to become an independent Kelvin Universe.

    Nero created the whole Kelvin universe from nothing. First, he created a new future from 2233AD forwards, and then that new future created a new past prior to 2233AD."

    As Spock said a new flow of history.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,637 Arc User
    edited September 4
    iamjmph wrote: »
    Nero created the whole Kelvin universe from nothing. First, he created a new future from 2233AD forwards, and then that new future created a new past prior to 2233AD."
    Nero did nothing wrong? He created an entire universe, and they murdered him for it!


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  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    Nero created the whole Kelvin universe from nothing. First, he created a new future from 2233AD forwards, and then that new future created a new past prior to 2233AD."
    Nero did nothing wrong? He created an entire universe, and they murdered him for it!


    Mustrum "I guess the Klingons approve" Ridcully

    First what you are quoting was not MY opinion. It was some else that i quoted and something i said was a decent explanation. Secondly, Nowhere does it say Nero did no wrong. He created the timeline, on accident, but due to his hatred and his attempt at vengeance on someone who was not responsible, just unable to prevent the disaster. His actions after he created the new universe were also criminal and based solely on his misplaced hatred and his need to avenge something when no such vengeance was necessary.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,075 Arc User
    Also... the NX class existed in both the Prime and Kelvin Timelines.
    8plsz2dcim311.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8ff910d71601b8f3b2c252752e387f9dd286f4df
    On the other side of the Kelvin model, you see a model of an NX as it appeared in the Prime Timeline.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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