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Ship Tier System Plans?

sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
So does PWE/Cryptic have a plan for settling the Ship Tier system now that all T6 ships have been made to scale with players?

Currently- there's little to no use for Tiers 1-5 if you've got a Tier 6 ship. Perhaps they should all be grandfathered to Tier 6, or balanced in some other way so that the other tiers are made viable again?

Another option is disassociating the Tiers with player Ranks so that they're available to fly no matter what rank, and therefore scale equally like Tier 6 does currently. Split off the "skins" into Zen store items that can be obtained for a reasonable amount (much less than the price of an entire ship, for example...) and then people can fly whatever they wish no matter what player rank.

I mean, sure for free to play players (those who never spend RL cash) they're somewhat useful- but once you've earned enough EC/Dil to obtain Zen or keys, it's not really any issue anymore.

They're going to need to address it at some point... it's the elephant sitting in the center of the room now.

Thoughts?
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Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,865 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    It's true that paying money for T1-T6 ships makes less sense now, and Cryptic has said they will consider lowering the prices but have not made any promises to do so.

    Cryptic is not getting rid of tiers. Existing ships will stay the same tiers that they are now.

    Some reasons for this:
    - level up ships for people who don't want to buy a T6 ship.
    - Owners of lower-tier ships who want to continue to use them for leveling up.
    - For endgame: T5, T5u for normal players, T1-T4 for bragging rights players.
    - Special ships where T6 versions are not in the C-Store, like the T1 Connie.
    They're going to need to address it at some point... it's the elephant sitting in the center of the room now.

    Not really. The only people I've seen considering it an issue are ones either hoping for free upgrades to T6 or wanting to buy cheaper T1-T5 ships for the skin, console, etc.
  • sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    It's true that paying money for T1-T6 ships makes less sense now, and Cryptic has said they will consider lowering the prices but have not made any promises to do so.

    Cryptic is not getting rid of tiers. Existing ships will stay the same tiers that they are now.

    Some reasons for this:
    - level up ships for people who don't want to buy a T6 ship.
    - Owners of lower-tier ships who want to continue to use them for leveling up.
    - For endgame: T5, T5u for normal players, T1-T4 for bragging rights players.
    - Special ships where T6 versions are not in the C-Store, like the T1 Connie.
    They're going to need to address it at some point... it's the elephant sitting in the center of the room now.

    Not really. The only people I've seen considering it an issue are ones either hoping for free upgrades to T6 or wanting to buy cheaper T1-T5 ships for the skin, console, etc.

    They've already stated previously they plan to release Tier 6 versions of all ships eventually. How does that fit in here?

    Why do that when they can just bump them all up- and have players earn them accordingly?

    Dil<->Zen conversion makes arguments of the Zen store irrelevant anyhow. Free to Play players (albeit with more grinding involved) can basically obtain T6 ships without spending a single penny on the game, after all.
    It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.

    Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,865 Arc User
    Why do that when they can just bump them all up- and have players earn them accordingly?

    Because they have no reason to give owners of the existing T1-T5 ships free $30 upgrades. Also, many T1-T5 ships already have T6 versions that can use the T1-T5 skins, for example the Arbiter and Avenger.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    Also in order to get those skins you may have to buy the lower tier ship.

    Also not everyone is going to buy a T6 on day one.
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    They're going to need to address it at some point... it's the elephant sitting in the center of the room now.

    How is it an "elephant in the center of the room?" It's more like forgotten trash at the bottom of your trash can that no one needs to think about.
    They've already stated previously they plan to release Tier 6 versions of all ships eventually. How does that fit in here?

    In a very predictable way. They'll release new 3000 zen versions of those ships and leave the preexisting T1-T5 ships in limbo. Maybe they'll even retire them from the c-store some day. Heck, most of them already have T6 versions which brings me back to the point of T1-T5 ships being forgotten trash that no one needs to even think about anymore.
    Why do that when they can just bump them all up- and have players earn them accordingly?

    Because running STO is a business?
    Dil<->Zen conversion makes arguments of the Zen store irrelevant anyhow. Free to Play players (albeit with more grinding involved) can basically obtain T6 ships without spending a single penny on the game, after all.

    That zen comes from somewhere. It isn't just a bottomless pit that cryptic allows you to trade for. Some of it comes from stipends. Some of it from other players spending real money more recently. It doesn't matter if the end user pays nothing. Someone paid real money to get all that zen.
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  • sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    They're going to need to address it at some point... it's the elephant sitting in the center of the room now.

    How is it an "elephant in the center of the room?" It's more like forgotten trash at the bottom of your trash can that no one needs to think about.
    They've already stated previously they plan to release Tier 6 versions of all ships eventually. How does that fit in here?

    In a very predictable way. They'll release new 3000 zen versions of those ships and leave the preexisting T1-T5 ships in limbo. Maybe they'll even retire them from the c-store some day. Heck, most of them already have T6 versions which brings me back to the point of T1-T5 ships being forgotten trash that no one needs to even think about anymore.
    Why do that when they can just bump them all up- and have players earn them accordingly?

    Because running STO is a business?
    Dil<->Zen conversion makes arguments of the Zen store irrelevant anyhow. Free to Play players (albeit with more grinding involved) can basically obtain T6 ships without spending a single penny on the game, after all.

    That zen comes from somewhere. It isn't just a bottomless pit that cryptic allows you to trade for. Some of it comes from stipends. Some of it from other players spending real money more recently. It doesn't matter if the end user pays nothing. Someone paid real money to get all that zen.

    It's times like this where I wish I could "like" or "promote" posts.

    All valid points my friend. Just wish there was someone actually paying attention instead of dismissing as pure rhetoric.

    Yes, in the end money talks and BS walks. I'm an LTS and still spend money on Zen, btw.
    It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.

    Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,573 Arc User
    Admiralty Cards, Consoles.
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  • sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    Oh I know.. I "get" it. But does PWE/Cryptic 'get" it?

    Not a sustainable path, not in the slightest. I've vested interest in this game beyond a few months and sipping martinis on the beach in Tahiti saying "I've ARRIVED!".

    Yeah, I just wish they were a bit less short-sighted I suppose.
    It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.

    Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,865 Arc User
    If you're the only one seeing an elephant ... maybe it's you. I see no impending DOOOM.

    Cryptic is apparently fine with losing some or even most of its T1 - T5 sales, mostly likely because they were already low long before leveling ships existed -- T6 has been around for almost 5 years now.
  • f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    I don't mind them keeping the tiers at all.

    I do wish they would finalize the zen cost for the t1-t5 ships though. there is a few I still don't own, but would buy them in a heartbeat, if I wasn't spending all the time chasing that new T6. Esp. on the Klingon side.
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  • gaalomgaalom Member Posts: 536 Arc User
    Consoles and unique weapons. Some of the bonuses you get from putting a set of consoles together can be very handy. You need to get the same ship before in the previous tier to get that bonus. So they still have a place, not to mention the skins. As for this tier 6 move that I came back, and ran into. Honestly one of the best moves they could have done. It was always one stos little issues.
  • sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    If you're the only one seeing an elephant ... maybe it's you. I see no impending DOOOM.

    Cryptic is apparently fine with losing some or even most of its T1 - T5 sales, mostly likely because they were already low long before leveling ships existed -- T6 has been around for almost 5 years now.

    Who has mentioned "doom" except you? Not sure what you're referring to here, I'm just trying to discuss a way to improve the quality of the game instead of keeping old broken systems that ultimately lead nowhere just for nostalgia's sake. Some players would love to be able to fly the older models without resorting to a lower Tier ship with limited game capability just because they haven't bothered to release new T6 versions of them so far. How many times have we seen requests for a T6 Nova, for example? Like how about since Tier 6 was introduced? Or how about even before that, when Tier 5 was the top of the ladder? Does it seriously take them 5+ years to release a new model of an old ship that's existed practically since the game was released? No.
    gaalom wrote: »
    Consoles and unique weapons. Some of the bonuses you get from putting a set of consoles together can be very handy. You need to get the same ship before in the previous tier to get that bonus. So they still have a place, not to mention the skins. As for this tier 6 move that I came back, and ran into. Honestly one of the best moves they could have done. It was always one stos little issues.

    Oh I'm aware of the consoles and weapons, issue... which could be bridged the same way they've done with adding the cross-faction packs in the Lobi store, etc. Just introduce another way to obtain the items so that they're not locked into the Tiering system.

    Don't get me wrong- I'm glad they introduced scaling, as someone who owns quite a few T6 ships to begin with I have a tremendous advantage with being able to utilize them all with alt characters and such. The issue for me is more that the other Tier ships are just so antiquated it's not even funny. Hell, I like some of the older models, but it doesn't make much practical sense to go flying around in a Tier 2-3 ship when you're a Level 65 Fleet Admiral and the ship itself is limited in capacity. Perhaps if they bothered to introduce more T6 retrofits for the older models with upgraded consoles and weapons? Anywho- there's a number of ways it could be handled, but I suppose there's always an excuse for why it can't be done.

    Yeah, it's always been one of those little issues. That's why I'm trying to discuss it, unlike some who are rather dismissive of it as an "issue" altogether. Improving the quality of the game moving forward, versus keeping broken systems around because entrenched opinions... that's what this discussion is about.

    I've really not even delved into the disjointed Ship Tiering versus Player Rank system... which is yet another part of this entire problem- they may as well just remove the rank requirements from all ships and be done with it. Why only Tier 6, after all- again they're completely obtainable without spending a cent in the Zen Store, and scaling isn't a bell that can be unrung.
    It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.

    Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,883 Community Moderator
    Before things get out of control, let's keep things civil. Folks are allowed to have their opinions in the positive or the negative and debate can be had provided it's kept civil.

    Now with the obligatory statements out of the way there's a few things that I believe need to be pointed out here. First putting a new ship in game isn't as easy as simply flipping a switch or finding a photo online and uploading it. Believe me everyone wishes it was that easy because then we would all have more fun stuff to play with and the company more money in its pockets. However sadly it doesn't work like that. When designing ships they're quite literally in most cases building them from the ground up from scratch. This means modeling the ship, which can take quite a bit of time depending on the complexity of the ship, size etc. Then you have to texture the ship which can take alot of time depending on how detailed the ship is. From there it's hooking in the boff seating, testing the ship out. This doesn't count any potential consoles, traits, or other abilities a ship might have. It's a good bit of work that takes time if you want to do it right.

    Another thing folks need to keep in mind is that in some instances there can be legal hoops to jump through as far as the licensing goes for ships and such. This is one reason why some ships took forever to appear in the game, or have yet to appear at all for that matter. I would love to see an Aegian, Iwo Jima, and a few others from Star Trek Armada II, but for legal reasons and a few other issues I might never see them in game. It sucks but sometimes that's the way it is with some ships.

    There's also a major misconception and a few minor ones that I think need to be cleared up that I've seen quite a bit. Simply because t6 ships can now scale their level does not mean folks are required to use them while leveling. If one wishes they can use the free ships you get every few levels or use lower tiered cstore ships as they level. In fact I still bust out that t4 Venture type Galaxy class from the Cstore because I like the look of it. For that matter on some toons I've stuck with that ship until I could decide on a main ship of sorts I was going to use for that toon. The scaling factor to most ships these days is simply a convenience and is not required. For some people it can be easier not having to swap ships as they level where as for others they may still prefer to change ships.

    t1-t5 and even t5u ships still have value in today's game. Each ship is worth an admiralty card to you if nothing else, which can be used to get XP, dilithium, and other fun rewards from the assignments it has you do. There are also still consoles and in some cases even weapons that you can utilize from those ships that you can't get anywhere else. Alot of those ships can also still be used with their t6 variants to kitbash parts and go with your preferred look for a ship.

    in regards to t5 and t5u, they are still just as capable as their t6 counterparts and always have been. The only difference is that t6 can come with traits you can unlock, access to specialist seating, and 1 console slot. Those bells and whistles are nice to have but are not required to succeed in game or clear content, though they definitely can help you in that department. For that matter I stuck with my t5u Galor until the Keldon itself was released, and that wasn't until way into early Agents of Yesterday on PC. T6 definitely has some nice bells and whistles and advantages but is not required to succeed.
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  • wideningxgyrewideningxgyre Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    "First putting a new ship in game isn't as easy as simply flipping a switch or finding a photo online and uploading it. Believe me everyone wishes it was that easy because then we would all have more fun stuff to play with and the company more money in its pockets. However sadly it doesn't work like that. When designing ships they're quite literally in most cases building them from the ground up from scratch."

    While I accept this, it makes me wonder about the mechanic behind Battle of the Binary Stars where our ships took on the appearance of various Disco era ships. Of course, each ship should have more to it and function differently than simply space Barbie. But, it does show that it is possible to apply different "skins" to our ships. So, the gating factor is creating the feature/function differences between ships.

    What really seems to be needed is rationalizing the ship categories and the capabilities within each category. By creating a more standardized taxonomy for the ships, the variations can be more systematically created.
  • sylveriareldensylveriarelden Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    Before things get out of control, let's keep things civil. Folks are allowed to have their opinions in the positive or the negative and debate can be had provided it's kept civil.

    Now with the obligatory statements out of the way there's a few things that I believe need to be pointed out here. First putting a new ship in game isn't as easy as simply flipping a switch or finding a photo online and uploading it. Believe me everyone wishes it was that easy because then we would all have more fun stuff to play with and the company more money in its pockets. However sadly it doesn't work like that. When designing ships they're quite literally in most cases building them from the ground up from scratch. This means modeling the ship, which can take quite a bit of time depending on the complexity of the ship, size etc. Then you have to texture the ship which can take alot of time depending on how detailed the ship is. From there it's hooking in the boff seating, testing the ship out. This doesn't count any potential consoles, traits, or other abilities a ship might have. It's a good bit of work that takes time if you want to do it right.

    Another thing folks need to keep in mind is that in some instances there can be legal hoops to jump through as far as the licensing goes for ships and such. This is one reason why some ships took forever to appear in the game, or have yet to appear at all for that matter. I would love to see an Aegian, Iwo Jima, and a few others from Star Trek Armada II, but for legal reasons and a few other issues I might never see them in game. It sucks but sometimes that's the way it is with some ships.

    There's also a major misconception and a few minor ones that I think need to be cleared up that I've seen quite a bit. Simply because t6 ships can now scale their level does not mean folks are required to use them while leveling. If one wishes they can use the free ships you get every few levels or use lower tiered cstore ships as they level. In fact I still bust out that t4 Venture type Galaxy class from the Cstore because I like the look of it. For that matter on some toons I've stuck with that ship until I could decide on a main ship of sorts I was going to use for that toon. The scaling factor to most ships these days is simply a convenience and is not required. For some people it can be easier not having to swap ships as they level where as for others they may still prefer to change ships.

    t1-t5 and even t5u ships still have value in today's game. Each ship is worth an admiralty card to you if nothing else, which can be used to get XP, dilithium, and other fun rewards from the assignments it has you do. There are also still consoles and in some cases even weapons that you can utilize from those ships that you can't get anywhere else. Alot of those ships can also still be used with their t6 variants to kitbash parts and go with your preferred look for a ship.

    in regards to t5 and t5u, they are still just as capable as their t6 counterparts and always have been. The only difference is that t6 can come with traits you can unlock, access to specialist seating, and 1 console slot. Those bells and whistles are nice to have but are not required to succeed in game or clear content, though they definitely can help you in that department. For that matter I stuck with my t5u Galor until the Keldon itself was released, and that wasn't until way into early Agents of Yesterday on PC. T6 definitely has some nice bells and whistles and advantages but is not required to succeed.

    Agree with civil conversation- a discussion is exactly what I'm hoping for, not a bait fest.

    I'm also well aware that it's quite a complicated process- but that doesn't quite explain why it's taken 5+ years to get around to releasing T6 versions of ships that were originally introduced, nor does it explain why they've spent a significant amount of resources on other "new" ships, by comparison. Layers upon layers- instead of keeping it clean, neat and simple. They just keep introducing more "new" concepts and designs without rounding back to what's left inherently broken by the introduction of said new concepts. Now, granted- we can't all be omnipotent and precognitive enough to avoid making mistakes... but let's stop the layering of mistakes and then acting as if it were the intention all along, yes?

    Now, I also agree that some older models of ships are completely viable... T-5U can still be used, sure. But again- what about a T-2 or T-3 ship as a Level 65 Fleet Admiral? Isn't that a bit of self-nerfing by way of hull restrictions, slots and many other features? That's kind of why I'm asking the question. What other possible motivation would I have to do so, if not only for RP purposes? (think "meta") The same goes with leveling with lower Tier ships now that T6 has been made to scale with players- what inherent disadvantage does one have opposed to going right to Tier 6? Many- of which you listed quite a few, access to consoles, traits, etc. There are no disadvantages to going straight for a Tier 6- other than perhaps the initial investment which is quite irrelevant with Dil<->Zen or even EC conversions.

    Now, when I began (no this isn't another grandma/grandpa story) the game, I remember following the structured path of the Tiers, and it all made complete sense to me- but that was even before Tier 5 became "endgame". With the increase in Player Ranks, additional Ship Tiers were added, and at first it still made sense, but then the divide became much larger as time progressed and more expansions were added. New mechanics like specialist BOff seating, universal console slots, ship traits, Level 5 ship traits, etc. and only served to continue to widen the divide even further, not to mention completely complicate what had already been introduced previously.

    I'm quite aware significant time and effort goes into ship designs. I'm not at all trivializing it, nor do I think I've "misconceived" anything, either. I won't even begin to detail the feelings of a player that I introduced to the game and the level of compllication in understanding the tutorials, let alone the concepts of how the Tiers work now as opposed to when I started playing. I had to apologize incessently for how much I had forgotten about being "new" to the game as it was all second nature to me anymore.
    "First putting a new ship in game isn't as easy as simply flipping a switch or finding a photo online and uploading it. Believe me everyone wishes it was that easy because then we would all have more fun stuff to play with and the company more money in its pockets. However sadly it doesn't work like that. When designing ships they're quite literally in most cases building them from the ground up from scratch."

    While I accept this, it makes me wonder about the mechanic behind Battle of the Binary Stars where our ships took on the appearance of various Disco era ships. Of course, each ship should have more to it and function differently than simply space Barbie. But, it does show that it is possible to apply different "skins" to our ships. So, the gating factor is creating the feature/function differences between ships.

    What really seems to be needed is rationalizing the ship categories and the capabilities within each category. By creating a more standardized taxonomy for the ships, the variations can be more systematically created.

    Your last sentence is probably closer to what I'm trying to get at here. Streamline and simplify, make it more uniform instead of uneccessarily complicated. Introducing new conceptual ideas and systems is great, sure- we all love "new stuff". As I said earlier, I'm by no means whatsoever attempting to trivialize the nature of the work, just that perthaps more careful attention should be given to the "where are we now" as the "where we will be".
    It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.

    Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    The T6 scaling doesn't change anything about anything. There was never any practical gameplay reason to buy ships specifically for low-level character to begin with, since the game is a piece of cake with the freebies and a toon will outgrow each ship tier in hours. Low-tier ships were, and still are, bought for the consoles, admiralty cards and/or skins. Being able to use them while leveling a toon is just a bonus.
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    I would be happy with all lower tier ships being able to scale to T5 and T5s the ability to scale to T5U. it would allow those of us not willing to pay big or grind super long to fly a viable Connie or K'Tinga or T'Liss
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,573 Arc User
    About time all T5 Ships purchased are automatically T5U.
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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,215 Arc User
    And all 8 of my stored ship upgrades would be useless.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    After all ships get a T6 version available then all the previous ships will be good for are consoles and weapons (like the scaling phasers on the Conni, quad-cannons, or wide-angled torpedo), and that's it. The T6s get the lower ships visuals as default anyway, so either simply make all versions of a particular ships' consoles and special weapons come with the T6 or sell them separately for 300 (console only) 500 (multiple consoles and special weapons) zen a pop.​​
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  • borg0vermindborg0vermind Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    T1-T4 make sense for admirality as many of them can be purchased for small EC amounts. T5s are a little special case, as upgraded they can actually be competitive. I am not giving up my Immortality Voth BFDC tank unless a T6 version of it is made.

    Also note that not all T6s are level-scaled.

    T1-4s are also useful for new players that do not have T6 claimable ships.

    They are also good for quick experimenting gear.
  • nuketfnuketf Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    I still think that T1-4 should be turned into "Wingmen" ships
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 7,058 Arc User
    I kind of doubt they'll change anything, but if they did maybe they could make T1-T5 store ships scale up to T5? That would avoid stepping on the toes of the T6 options while also making them slightly relevant with the current monetization model.
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