Yes, Starfleet can classify information from itself. It's called compartmentalization, and the intelligence community does this even now in the real world.
Military, too. There's a classification level known as TS:SCI, for Top Secret: Separately Compartmented Information. You literally cannot discuss anything you do with anyone else, even in the same office, unless they've been read into your program and have demonstrated need-to-know. (My work at HQ SAC was one level lower, at TS:ESI, or Exceptionally Sensitive Information. We just had to make sure anyone we talked to about our work had been read in. After all, when deconflicting war plans, it's hard to know before the fact who has need-to-know and who doesn't. What if the Air Team had recently tasked a bomber group through the same airspace the Missile Team had designated for a first-strike ICBM, but nobody ever discussed the matter? Then suddenly the balloon goes up, every armed weapon aboard the bomber is going off as it flies through the neutron flux of the missile's warhead, and that poor plane's mission profile goes straight to Gre'thor...)
Starfleet classified everything concerning the Discovery herself somewhere at least two levels higher than TS:SCI. This would include knowledge of the true origins of Capt. Lorca, and the existence of a Mirror Universe. (Pike was able to figure some stuff out - he's quite bright, and had access to Discovery's logs as captain. The data itself, however, was lost when Discovery was lost.) As far as Starfleet of 2410 is concerned, Lorca was the same Gabriel Lorca who'd been assigned to command the Buran; his psychological profile had changed after she was lost, but that's to be expected, because nobody goes through something like that unscarred.
We don't actually know if things are still classified - but in the context of a simulation, it might work best if the persons in the sim are not aware of anything. After all, the people that experienced the real scenario didn't know anything, either.
It is also not necessary to know. We still can't let the Klingons get a fake Lorca, and we have no right to just murder him because he might do bad things later.
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Yes, Starfleet can classify information from itself. It's called compartmentalization, and the intelligence community does this even now in the real world.
Military, too. There's a classification level known as TS:SCI, for Top Secret: Separately Compartmented Information. You literally cannot discuss anything you do with anyone else, even in the same office, unless they've been read into your program and have demonstrated need-to-know. (My work at HQ SAC was one level lower, at TS:ESI, or Exceptionally Sensitive Information. We just had to make sure anyone we talked to about our work had been read in. After all, when deconflicting war plans, it's hard to know before the fact who has need-to-know and who doesn't. What if the Air Team had recently tasked a bomber group through the same airspace the Missile Team had designated for a first-strike ICBM, but nobody ever discussed the matter? Then suddenly the balloon goes up, every armed weapon aboard the bomber is going off as it flies through the neutron flux of the missile's warhead, and that poor plane's mission profile goes straight to Gre'thor...)
Starfleet classified everything concerning the Discovery herself somewhere at least two levels higher than TS:SCI. This would include knowledge of the true origins of Capt. Lorca, and the existence of a Mirror Universe. (Pike was able to figure some stuff out - he's quite bright, and had access to Discovery's logs as captain. The data itself, however, was lost when Discovery was lost.) As far as Starfleet of 2410 is concerned, Lorca was the same Gabriel Lorca who'd been assigned to command the Buran; his psychological profile had changed after she was lost, but that's to be expected, because nobody goes through something like that unscarred.
Yes, Starfleet can classify information from itself. It's called compartmentalization, and the intelligence community does this even now in the real world.
Military, too. There's a classification level known as TS:SCI, for Top Secret: Separately Compartmented Information. You literally cannot discuss anything you do with anyone else, even in the same office, unless they've been read into your program and have demonstrated need-to-know. (My work at HQ SAC was one level lower, at TS:ESI, or Exceptionally Sensitive Information. We just had to make sure anyone we talked to about our work had been read in. After all, when deconflicting war plans, it's hard to know before the fact who has need-to-know and who doesn't. What if the Air Team had recently tasked a bomber group through the same airspace the Missile Team had designated for a first-strike ICBM, but nobody ever discussed the matter? Then suddenly the balloon goes up, every armed weapon aboard the bomber is going off as it flies through the neutron flux of the missile's warhead, and that poor plane's mission profile goes straight to Gre'thor...)
Starfleet classified everything concerning the Discovery herself somewhere at least two levels higher than TS:SCI. This would include knowledge of the true origins of Capt. Lorca, and the existence of a Mirror Universe. (Pike was able to figure some stuff out - he's quite bright, and had access to Discovery's logs as captain. The data itself, however, was lost when Discovery was lost.) As far as Starfleet of 2410 is concerned, Lorca was the same Gabriel Lorca who'd been assigned to command the Buran; his psychological profile had changed after she was lost, but that's to be expected, because nobody goes through something like that unscarred.
You could argue that everything that is illegal to reveal is classified (including things like your medical history IIRC). So it's also rather vital part of freedom of privacy and I suspect would remain so in UFP.
To hear talk in other Threads there are worst Captains right here given their performance in TFOs.
No wait, that's wrong, they're all Fleet Admirals here.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
To hear talk in other Threads there are worst Captains right here given their performance in TFOs.
No wait, that's wrong, they're all Fleet Admirals here.
Yea with a desk job for the most part.
Wait what you expect flag officers to be proficient in combat. Now, now that's just not proper, everything else under the sun sure but not combat, that would be downright barbaric.
@jonsills Yes, I was including the military when I spoke about the intelligence community. I held a TS:SCI (Top Secret: Sensitive Compartmented Information) for many years when I worked for a certain agency.
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In the mission itself, I kinda agreed with MU Lorca on a lot of things. You have to be tough in order to survive
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
> @foxrockssocks said:
> The whole concept of classifying information is something I've never liked about the direction Star Trek went. It completely goes against the idea of a more evolved humanity if you can't trust people with information. As we see in today's world, governments classify things to the point where its used as a coverup tool to cover corruption and illegal activities more often than protecting actually sensitive information, and in Star Trek, that's no different, which is sad.
>
> In any case, I don't think Lorca was all that bad. I think he actually showed real leadership at a few points, and there was that absurd scene where he pulled the debris off the girl at great risk to his own life. (Of course maybe there was no risk since the Klingons apparently went to marksmanship training a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. That had to be the hardest scene to watch to me for how incredulously bad it was.)
Hate to break it to you dude but there has always been classified stuff in Star Trek, all the way back to TOS various things have been classified. For example, the file on Talos IV in The Menagerie was marked classified. The Genesis project was classified. Etc etc.
PS. The Omega Directive has been in place and classified since the 22nd century.
By the way, that "absurd scene" as you (incorrectly) call it. Was it absurd when Worf did exactly the same thing to save Alexander on the show?
You are missing my points. That is a frustrating theme in this thread, but lets try an analogy. Lets imagine a society that has some measure of advancement. There are problems in that society, disease, homelessness, poverty, and so on. Now imagine that society has advanced with new technologies and new horizons, but has not fixed any of the problems they had years ago, or they are even worse than previously. Has that society really advanced? It has all the old problems it always had, just packaged in a new shinier box.
By the same token having Starfleet continue to classify things to protect and hide illegal activities and things that really don't need to be classified shows to me that Starfleet as an organization really hasn't advanced much in culture past 20th century Earth. I don't care how many episodes it exists in, it is counter to the idea that Starfleet and human culture (aliens too) is somehow more advanced and evolved. Same stuff, different year. And don't mistake what I'm saying, its fine to classify military maneuvers and plans and keep them secret from your enemies, but no stuff like the Genesis project should not have been classified.
As for the scene, there is absolutely nothing incorrect about calling it absurd. You seem to have missed where I point to one of the biggest reasons it was absurd: the Stormtooper accuracy of the Klingons against a guy with his back turned in the middle of a hallway. The cheesey save from the one smart enough to use his bat'leth was also facepalm worthy, while highlighting our own captain's incompetence at letting him get that close.
No, that scene was objectively terrible on many levels. It could easily be made a lot better. The concept itself is fine, but there was no effort to actually provide some sort of shielding or cover that it would have a believable chance of succeeding. I mean really, have someone pop a smoke grenade or shoot out some conduit to leak gas, or erect a forcefield or some magnetic field that deflects blaster disruptor fire. And then have something show why this one Klingon manages to get past our captain who is supposed to be providing overwatch.
Nothing illegal was classified. Where is that even coming from? It doesn't matter how advanced a civilization becomes, the need to protect information, even from the general public, will always remain.
In the instance of why the existence of the MU was classified, one stated reason was because of all the lives lost during the Klingon War. Learning that there is an alternate universe where loved ones may still be alive was not something Starfleet wanted the general public to know.
As for the Genesis Project, yes, it needed to be classified. And for the exact reason that we later see in STO, where the Tzenkethi use protomatter as a weapon.
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'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Nothing illegal was classified. Where is that even coming from? It doesn't matter how advanced a civilization becomes, the need to protect information, even from the general public, will always remain.
In the instance of why the existence of the MU was classified, one stated reason was because of all the lives lost during the Klingon War. Learning that there is an alternate universe where loved ones may still be alive was not something Starfleet wanted the general public to know.
As for the Genesis Project, yes, it needed to be classified. And for the exact reason that we later see in STO, where the Tzenkethi use protomatter as a weapon.
This
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Nothing illegal was classified. Where is that even coming from? It doesn't matter how advanced a civilization becomes, the need to protect information, even from the general public, will always remain.
In the instance of why the existence of the MU was classified, one stated reason was because of all the lives lost during the Klingon War. Learning that there is an alternate universe where loved ones may still be alive was not something Starfleet wanted the general public to know.
As for the Genesis Project, yes, it needed to be classified. And for the exact reason that we later see in STO, where the Tzenkethi use protomatter as a weapon.
Pegasus and its illegal cloaking experiments, as mentioned already.
And I can't remotely agree with your premise. Thinking that people shouldn't know about something is the sort of thing that holds societies down. It is a slippery slope at best to try and claim this or that needs to be held from public information, and a tool to utterly flout laws and treaties at worst.
The reasoning you suggest for keeping the MU secret is utterly ridiculous. What would it change if people knew? Well for one it proves theories on quantum realities which could have gone far in scientific endeavors. Would people want to hope their loved ones are alive and try to rescue them or something? Sure, but what in the world is wrong with that? The feasibility is low, but trying to make that happen could have provided some fantastic advancements, as tends to happen when people are motivated to solve a difficult problem.
It could have provided means to better detect how Terrans find ways into this universe and why the connection between these two universes is so strong. How many lives could have been saved if the MU was widely known and studied in the 23rd century which almost certainly would allow us to better fight off their invasions now in STO's 25th?
And Genesis, classifying it did what exactly? It was still stolen by a crazy person, and chased after by the Klingons when they found out (if I remember st3 right.) It certainly didn't stop the Tzenkethi from developing similar technology, nor does it stop anyone else from developing a similar device. When something is possible, keeping it a secret doesn't keep other people from figuring it out on their own. Perfecting the Genesis device also could have made terraforming dead planets an incredibly easy task that could ultimately benefit the lives of trillions of people, and help Starfleet better protect against weaponized protomatter, or at the very least, reverse the damage the Tzenkethi did to the planets.
Sorry, you can't rewrite decades of precedent because of one abomination. The Monster-Lorca in question is by default not a SF captain. He is a Terran captain. This fact and the examples of how SF captains, real ones, actually act, support my original premise perfectly.
But, I remember, secrets...
Don't act like Starfleet Captains are perfect and can do no wrong, or do I have to remind you of the TRIBBLE Captain Ransom pulled?
Or are you going to just say he's "not a real Starfleet Captain" because he doesn't act like your idealized Captain?
Classifying the Genesis Project certainly kept it from being stolen early on by Klingon (or Romulan, or...) agents and being deployed as a weapon. (You might recall Kruge's reaction when he saw just the pitch for the project, swiped by Klingon spies and transmitted to his ship.) The Tzenkethi (and Lukari) discovered the uses of protomatter separately, with no reference to any Federation projects.
I really, really wish people who want to discuss supposed advancement of human society could eradicate the word "evolved" from their vocabularies. Societies with secrets are not "less advanced" than completely open societies, unless you mean to state that a random tribe in the Amazon jungle is automatically more "advanced" than any technologically-advantaged society because they have fewer secrets. And the idea that over a matter of a few centuries humans could possibly "evolve" to be fundamentally more angelic beings is just plain silly.
The MU is classified because if it were openly known, people would start poking around with ways to open portals to it - presenting the Terran Empire with a multitude of potential avenues of attack. (You think the idea of recovering loved ones can't possibly lead to a bad end? Perhaps you should watch Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, to see an extreme example of what this can become.)
The fate of the Discovery is classified for the same reason the Guardian of Forever is classified, or knowledge of Timefleet - because mucking about with history is perhaps the most dangerous possible thing any being can do. You can't possibly know all the outcomes of any changes you might make; Norman Spinrad's novel The Iron Dream presents a timeline that might have happened if Hitler, on not being accepted to that art school, had instead gone to New York and gotten involved in first doing covers for, then writing for, pulp sci-fi magazines. (The story is Adolf's dream; the Afterword details the world being faced in that world-line.) And if the Discovery's fate were known, somebody would start messing around with time in order to "save" them. (Not to mention the folks who'd decide that the whole Control thing could have worked out right, if only they'd been in charge of the project...)
Talos IV is classified, and off-limits, mostly because nobody wants to accidentally tick off the Talosians.
You could argue that everything that is illegal to reveal is classified (including things like your medical history IIRC). So it's also rather vital part of freedom of privacy and I suspect would remain so in UFP.
Your medical history is covered by the Privacy Act, but wouldn't be classified. I think you're right though, it probably would remain classified even in the Federation. Sorry to nitpick. Like @badmoonrisen - prior service and prior IC.
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Comments
Starfleet classified everything concerning the Discovery herself somewhere at least two levels higher than TS:SCI. This would include knowledge of the true origins of Capt. Lorca, and the existence of a Mirror Universe. (Pike was able to figure some stuff out - he's quite bright, and had access to Discovery's logs as captain. The data itself, however, was lost when Discovery was lost.) As far as Starfleet of 2410 is concerned, Lorca was the same Gabriel Lorca who'd been assigned to command the Buran; his psychological profile had changed after she was lost, but that's to be expected, because nobody goes through something like that unscarred.
It is also not necessary to know. We still can't let the Klingons get a fake Lorca, and we have no right to just murder him because he might do bad things later.
No wait, that's wrong, they're all Fleet Admirals here.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yea with a desk job for the most part.
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Did it involve an alien built ring that can create artifical wormholes that allows for travel to other planets?
Sorry... couldn't resist.
Besides... you could tell us... but then you'd have to shoot us.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You are missing my points. That is a frustrating theme in this thread, but lets try an analogy. Lets imagine a society that has some measure of advancement. There are problems in that society, disease, homelessness, poverty, and so on. Now imagine that society has advanced with new technologies and new horizons, but has not fixed any of the problems they had years ago, or they are even worse than previously. Has that society really advanced? It has all the old problems it always had, just packaged in a new shinier box.
By the same token having Starfleet continue to classify things to protect and hide illegal activities and things that really don't need to be classified shows to me that Starfleet as an organization really hasn't advanced much in culture past 20th century Earth. I don't care how many episodes it exists in, it is counter to the idea that Starfleet and human culture (aliens too) is somehow more advanced and evolved. Same stuff, different year. And don't mistake what I'm saying, its fine to classify military maneuvers and plans and keep them secret from your enemies, but no stuff like the Genesis project should not have been classified.
As for the scene, there is absolutely nothing incorrect about calling it absurd. You seem to have missed where I point to one of the biggest reasons it was absurd: the Stormtooper accuracy of the Klingons against a guy with his back turned in the middle of a hallway. The cheesey save from the one smart enough to use his bat'leth was also facepalm worthy, while highlighting our own captain's incompetence at letting him get that close.
No, that scene was objectively terrible on many levels. It could easily be made a lot better. The concept itself is fine, but there was no effort to actually provide some sort of shielding or cover that it would have a believable chance of succeeding. I mean really, have someone pop a smoke grenade or shoot out some conduit to leak gas, or erect a forcefield or some magnetic field that deflects blaster disruptor fire. And then have something show why this one Klingon manages to get past our captain who is supposed to be providing overwatch.
Wasn't Dr. Ketteract from the 23rd Century?
In the instance of why the existence of the MU was classified, one stated reason was because of all the lives lost during the Klingon War. Learning that there is an alternate universe where loved ones may still be alive was not something Starfleet wanted the general public to know.
As for the Genesis Project, yes, it needed to be classified. And for the exact reason that we later see in STO, where the Tzenkethi use protomatter as a weapon.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
This
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Pegasus and its illegal cloaking experiments, as mentioned already.
And I can't remotely agree with your premise. Thinking that people shouldn't know about something is the sort of thing that holds societies down. It is a slippery slope at best to try and claim this or that needs to be held from public information, and a tool to utterly flout laws and treaties at worst.
The reasoning you suggest for keeping the MU secret is utterly ridiculous. What would it change if people knew? Well for one it proves theories on quantum realities which could have gone far in scientific endeavors. Would people want to hope their loved ones are alive and try to rescue them or something? Sure, but what in the world is wrong with that? The feasibility is low, but trying to make that happen could have provided some fantastic advancements, as tends to happen when people are motivated to solve a difficult problem.
It could have provided means to better detect how Terrans find ways into this universe and why the connection between these two universes is so strong. How many lives could have been saved if the MU was widely known and studied in the 23rd century which almost certainly would allow us to better fight off their invasions now in STO's 25th?
And Genesis, classifying it did what exactly? It was still stolen by a crazy person, and chased after by the Klingons when they found out (if I remember st3 right.) It certainly didn't stop the Tzenkethi from developing similar technology, nor does it stop anyone else from developing a similar device. When something is possible, keeping it a secret doesn't keep other people from figuring it out on their own. Perfecting the Genesis device also could have made terraforming dead planets an incredibly easy task that could ultimately benefit the lives of trillions of people, and help Starfleet better protect against weaponized protomatter, or at the very least, reverse the damage the Tzenkethi did to the planets.
Don't act like Starfleet Captains are perfect and can do no wrong, or do I have to remind you of the TRIBBLE Captain Ransom pulled?
Or are you going to just say he's "not a real Starfleet Captain" because he doesn't act like your idealized Captain?
I really, really wish people who want to discuss supposed advancement of human society could eradicate the word "evolved" from their vocabularies. Societies with secrets are not "less advanced" than completely open societies, unless you mean to state that a random tribe in the Amazon jungle is automatically more "advanced" than any technologically-advantaged society because they have fewer secrets. And the idea that over a matter of a few centuries humans could possibly "evolve" to be fundamentally more angelic beings is just plain silly.
The MU is classified because if it were openly known, people would start poking around with ways to open portals to it - presenting the Terran Empire with a multitude of potential avenues of attack. (You think the idea of recovering loved ones can't possibly lead to a bad end? Perhaps you should watch Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, to see an extreme example of what this can become.)
The fate of the Discovery is classified for the same reason the Guardian of Forever is classified, or knowledge of Timefleet - because mucking about with history is perhaps the most dangerous possible thing any being can do. You can't possibly know all the outcomes of any changes you might make; Norman Spinrad's novel The Iron Dream presents a timeline that might have happened if Hitler, on not being accepted to that art school, had instead gone to New York and gotten involved in first doing covers for, then writing for, pulp sci-fi magazines. (The story is Adolf's dream; the Afterword details the world being faced in that world-line.) And if the Discovery's fate were known, somebody would start messing around with time in order to "save" them. (Not to mention the folks who'd decide that the whole Control thing could have worked out right, if only they'd been in charge of the project...)
Talos IV is classified, and off-limits, mostly because nobody wants to accidentally tick off the Talosians.
Your medical history is covered by the Privacy Act, but wouldn't be classified. I think you're right though, it probably would remain classified even in the Federation. Sorry to nitpick. Like @badmoonrisen - prior service and prior IC.
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