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recent patch notes Reputation marks trade-In
i8myhell
Member Posts: 30 Arc User
Reputations Mark Trade-In:
Reputation projects to turn-in marks for Dilithium have been disabled and replaced by a new store, accessible from the Reputation UI once you reach Tier V in that reputation.
The rate is the same as the existing projects; 50 Marks for 500 ore, or 3 Elite marks for 1000 ore.
Exchanges on this store may be made in bulk, reducing the time needed to convert excess Reputation Marks.
Was this addressed on the recent livestream by Kael & that new boss? Why was this done? What good does this do? Anyone that had any amount of marks in a Rep but didn't plan to level it up now have those marks being held for ransom so was that even thought of?
I just don't see this as a positive in any way for players but instead for what ever reason Cryptic decided to be more rigid.
Otherwise, there is a lot in the patch notes that seem to be really nice additions.
But this mark turn-in for dilithium new restriction only after T5 in a Rep for each Rep & for each character on a players' account seems it is trying to address or punish players about something else (imo).
What is the intended positive here for doing this Cryptic?
Reputation projects to turn-in marks for Dilithium have been disabled and replaced by a new store, accessible from the Reputation UI once you reach Tier V in that reputation.
The rate is the same as the existing projects; 50 Marks for 500 ore, or 3 Elite marks for 1000 ore.
Exchanges on this store may be made in bulk, reducing the time needed to convert excess Reputation Marks.
Was this addressed on the recent livestream by Kael & that new boss? Why was this done? What good does this do? Anyone that had any amount of marks in a Rep but didn't plan to level it up now have those marks being held for ransom so was that even thought of?
I just don't see this as a positive in any way for players but instead for what ever reason Cryptic decided to be more rigid.
Otherwise, there is a lot in the patch notes that seem to be really nice additions.
But this mark turn-in for dilithium new restriction only after T5 in a Rep for each Rep & for each character on a players' account seems it is trying to address or punish players about something else (imo).
What is the intended positive here for doing this Cryptic?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
No biggie for me with the few reputations I have leveled or am leveling, but just a pain to have to complete up to tier 5 in each just to turn them in maybe for dilithium.
Especially doing this mid-stream to players as was stated for EACH character for EACH reputation.
Argh, thanks Cryptic. It seems this isn't even really needed since Cryptic adds enough choke-points throughout the game.
The positive outcome is that you can now turn in marks in larger and more flexible quantities, rather then multiples of 1, 5 and 10 of the former turn-in projects.
If you were sitting on large numbers of marks and turning them in with these projects without going to Tier 5 in the reputation, you were effectively cheating yourself out of a lot of dilithium for a slight reduction in hassle. The marks turn-in projects pay out 10 dilithium per marks, while the daily projects to get your reputation tier higher pay a little over 11 dilithium per mark, but that isn't even the end of it, because, even without a sponsorship, you get 32,000 dilithium at Tier 5, for a total cost of 1225 marks, giving you a rate of just over 26 more dilithium per mark. So, using your marks to get your reputation up to Tier 5 pays almost 4 times the dilithium per mark that the simple marks turn-in projects do, when you add it all up, at its worst. Doing so with sponsorship brings that up to over 7 times the rate. I know that there are also EC costs (roughly averaging out to about 5,000-6,000 per project from my experience) associated with getting the reputation up to Tier 5, costing you up to 2.4 million EC by the end of the process, but let's translate that into dilithium using the conversion rate that's most-generous about EC to dilithium that I can think of, the one the developers themselves use in most places, which is 100 EC to 1 dilithium, simply to turn everything into like terms. That''s a cost of 24,000 dilithium per reputation, in the worst possible case, which is the roughly 37 diltihium per reputation mark rate (the nearly 4 times rate noted above for taking an unsponsored reputation to Tier 5, rather than using those marks for turn-in projects. It's easiest to just subtract the EC cost converted into dilithium from the bonus for Tier 5 completion, leaving 8,000 dilithium bonus, or a rate of over 17 dilithium per mark, which is still a whole lot better. All of this is before accounting for the dilithium value, however you decide to convert it, of the marks and elite marks (if there are any elite marks) that you get for getting the reputation to Tier 5.
Note: The above math does not apply to Omega reputation, since it has a much lower dilithium and regular mark payout, but a higher elite mark payout, for reaching Tier 5. Doing only the math from above, Omega is indeed worse off this way. still the slightly over 11 to 1 for the 40 projects that it would take without sponsorship, but going into negative territory when subtracting the EC cost adjusted to dilihtium value from above from the mere 9,000 dilithium reward for getting to Tier 5, for an end result of about -1 dilthium per mark. So, for the very few out there with no sponsorship in Omega reputation that were exchanging the marks through the turn-in projects without getting to Tier 5, I suppose that you got the short end of this change.
I'll still take 11 winners to 1 loser.
Most alts that are made as dil minions would get levelled to 5 anyway to make use of the chunk of ore most of the reps give so again no biggie.
The reduction of faff and clicking is a surprising but welcome move.
> i8myhell wrote: »
>
> Reputations Mark Trade-In:
> Reputation projects to turn-in marks for Dilithium have been disabled and replaced by a new store, accessible from the Reputation UI once you reach Tier V in that reputation.
> The rate is the same as the existing projects; 50 Marks for 500 ore, or 3 Elite marks for 1000 ore.
> Exchanges on this store may be made in bulk, reducing the time needed to convert excess Reputation Marks.
>
> Was this addressed on the recent livestream by Kael & that new boss? Why was this done? What good does this do? Anyone that had any amount of marks in a Rep but didn't plan to level it up now have those marks being held for ransom so was that even thought of?
>
> I just don't see this as a positive in any way for players but instead for what ever reason Cryptic decided to be more rigid.
>
> Otherwise, there is a lot in the patch notes that seem to be really nice additions.
>
> But this mark turn-in for dilithium new restriction only after T5 in a Rep for each Rep & for each character on a players' account seems it is trying to address or punish players about something else (imo).
>
> What is the intended positive here for doing this Cryptic?
>
>
>
>
> The positive outcome is that you can now turn in marks in larger and more flexible quantities, rather then multiples of 1, 5 and 10 of the former turn-in projects.
>
> If you were sitting on large numbers of marks and turning them in with these projects without going to Tier 5 in the reputation, you were effectively cheating yourself out of a lot of dilithium for a slight reduction in hassle. The marks turn-in projects pay out 10 dilithium per marks, while the daily projects to get your reputation tier higher pay a little over 11 dilithium per mark, but that isn't even the end of it, because, even without a sponsorship, you get 32,000 dilithium at Tier 5, for a total cost of 1225 marks, giving you a rate of just over 26 more dilithium per mark. So, using your marks to get your reputation up to Tier 5 pays almost 4 times the dilithium per mark that the simple marks turn-in projects do, when you add it all up, at its worst. Doing so with sponsorship brings that up to over 7 times the rate. I know that there are also EC costs (roughly averaging out to about 5,000-6,000 per project from my experience) associated with getting the reputation up to Tier 5, costing you up to 2.4 million EC by the end of the process, but let's translate that into dilithium using the conversion rate that's most-generous about EC to dilithium that I can think of, the one the developers themselves use in most places, which is 100 EC to 1 dilithium, simply to turn everything into like terms. That''s a cost of 24,000 dilithium per reputation, in the worst possible case, which is the roughly 37 diltihium per reputation mark rate (the nearly 4 times rate noted above for taking an unsponsored reputation to Tier 5, rather than using those marks for turn-in projects. It's easiest to just subtract the EC cost converted into dilithium from the bonus for Tier 5 completion, leaving 8,000 dilithium bonus, or a rate of over 17 dilithium per mark, which is still a whole lot better. All of this is before accounting for the dilithium value, however you decide to convert it, of the marks and elite marks (if there are any elite marks) that you get for getting the reputation to Tier 5.
>
> Note: The above math does not apply to Omega reputation, since it has a much lower dilithium and regular mark payout, but a higher elite mark payout, for reaching Tier 5. Doing only the math from above, Omega is indeed worse off this way. still the slightly over 11 to 1 for the 40 projects that it would take without sponsorship, but going into negative territory when subtracting the EC cost adjusted to dilihtium value from above from the mere 9,000 dilithium reward for getting to Tier 5, for an end result of about -1 dilthium per mark. So, for the very few out there with no sponsorship in Omega reputation that were exchanging the marks through the turn-in projects without getting to Tier 5, I suppose that you got the short end of this change.
>
> I'll still take 11 winners to 1 loser.
Did you even notice the BOLD lettering? That is the change that is more restrictive & imo wasn't even needed. I even mentioned it later in the original post & questioned the intent? Heck yeah the slider for the marks turn in to dilithium is better but that wasn't being disputed & again the BOLD lettering was the focus. That is right on par with the "Fill In All" button that was added recently & is good. I appreciate your math on the subject but please state how or why restricting this to achieving T5 in each Rep for each character per account is good or positive? Not all Reps serve the 3 classes as well nor different play styles & if I look ahead & notice I won't want to use any of the unlocked gear from that Rep I could just use any marks I had to convert to dilithium but now that is behind a paywall. Why would I get marks for a Rep I know I won't want to advance? Daily Bonus on marks of course. In a lot of good that was these patch notes I just don't see being more restrictive with this rigid each rep for each character on an account is a positive so I ask what good did this, the T5 restriction, do? Thanks for that math breakdown though that is helpful!
Maybe they found that farmers were leveling just enough to get the gamma / temporal / delta recruitment marks boxes, turning all those marks into dil, then destroying that character once the dil was refined.
Now get out there and aid the war effort!!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I haven't done the math for the two choices:
a) level up just enough, burn all the marks, wait for the refinement to finish (how many days?), delete alt
b) spend 20 days per rep to level them while either ignoring Dyson and Romulan or playing through their arcs, also playing enough TFOs to generate the extra needed marks (recruit boxes aren't enough), waiting for the tier 5 completion dil to be refined, then burn through the completion marks, then delete alt
For a farmer, I suspect (b) requires more work per character for the dil since it requires doing the TFOs, or only completing a few of the reputations.
(I don't farm so haven't had a reason to figure this out completely.)
Those stacking dil boxes coming to bite them in the backside.
I noticed it. That's why I went into that big old math-filled explanation of why using those old projects before getting to Tier 5, even before this change was actually you hurting yourself by getting less dilithium for your marks than you would just by going to Tier 5, except for in Omega reputation. I didn't factor in the big old chunk of marks that you also get for completing the Tier 5 project, but all that does is make the discrepancy even larger in favor of getting to Tier 5. With the Fill All button, the extra hassle of doing the daily project over the marks turn-ins is also effectively eliminated.
In plainer English: I don't know why they did that change, but if the end result gets you to level the reputation to Tier 5 instead of dumping the marks for a lower payout through turn-ins without getting to Tier 5, then that is actually beneficial to you.
If you wish to continue to plug your ears about it and shout, "Why did the developers take away the pistol that I was using to shoot myself in the foot?" be my guest.
While you aren't wrong about the math behind the turn in, is it really for anyone else to mandate how any player chooses to use his resources or spend his time - whether it's more efficient or not (ToS and actual game mechanics notwithstanding, of course).
"Beneficial" is a very relative term. If you're not hitting the refinement cap every day because you don't have enough ore, it may be much more "beneficial" at some stages of the game to forego the rep grind in favor of dil ore, especially if you don't care about particular traits or equipment available from that rep.
Depending on what you find more tedious, grinding for dil ore may be more onerous than marks, so being able to exchange marks for dil may be "more efficient" for some people. Given the time-gated nature of the reputation grind to Tier 5 (and dear god, Tier 6) vs. a run through queues, a given player may find it more enjoyable (mini game vs. running RTF) to spend time doing queues, getting marks, and exchanging them - especially since it does take a while to get to the point where you have an inventory of dil to carry you beyond the refinement cap.
Now, if someone wants to argue it was always the intent for player NOT to be able to make the exchange until after hitting Tier 6, that's different. But, seems like at least some warning about making a change of this nature would have been appreciated by folks who use it.
However it ultimately comes down to someone deciding to implement another road block for the player. I suppose all that Dilithium Ore that cannot be spent or processed beyond 9000 units per day (on average under the best of circumstances) is a complete detriment to the longevity of the game.
I'll admit I don't understand the thinking here.
Even though I do like the streamlining of the process to convert marks to dilithium, this new "feature" comes off as a middle finger. It doesn't even effect me and I find it to be intentionally onerous, but, as I said, I don't understand the thinking.
Bear in mind I don't blame the devs here. This bears the particular stench of a decision made by someone in middle management or above. A bean counter. A Dunsel or a Herbert, if you will (I know many of you will get those references).
Here's a thought:
Now that the Foundry is being retired, thus freeing up time and money, how about setting the focus on improving the player experience exclusively rather than looking for ways to impede it further?
I'd suggest, for new content, to hide the grind better. Grind is a necessity. Making it "grindy" is not. Hide the Grind with fun. I know, fun is subjective and in many cases the grind has been well disguised. Learn from the successes and failures in this area.
Enough with the pointless time gating. If we're to have a time gate give it a good reason to exist.
Lastly I have to give credit for the number of fixes in this last update. Please continue down this particular road.
And this is an "actual game mechanic."
Neverwinter allowed excess refining and astral diamonds are almost worthless because of the excess supply.
The exchange is pegged at 500 and there is a long wait before your AD are converted.
My guess is it reduces the flood of dil from burner alts.
One of the ways Cryptic improves the player experience is by keeping dil inflation in check, which accomplishes two things:
- It lets F2P players earn some zen, buying it from other players who want dil
- It encourages those other players to buy zen to trade for the dil they want
That only works well when the supply of dil is kept in check and it stays well below the 500 per zen cap.
Besides acting to limit the amount of dil refined, Crytpic has also worked to add dil sinks so dil has value to everyone: tech upgrades, phoenix packs, re-engineering, fleet and rep gear.
People who want one or the other (dil or zen) sometimes fail to think about how there is an economy for them and it needs some kind of balance.
I'm not arguing for a higher refining cap, though. I'm happy with the refining where it is.
I simply see no use in inhibiting the conversion of Reputation Marks to Dilithium Ore via a reputation level requirement to do so.
As for burner alts, let's not kid ourselves. They want burner alts. It makes the yearly infographic look good.
They do care. They've already acted a couple of times before to make burner alts harder to exploit for dil farming, adding level and play time restrictions before giving you the recruit boxes. They did that because people were exploiting the alts to generate dil and (before admiralty crashed the value) R&D mats.
I can see doing that when it involves the recruit promotions since there are many bonuses therein.
This latest strategy goes well beyond that. I mean if The Powers That Be could rationally claim that the players have been behaving in an exploitative manner using a glitch in the game design they most certainly would have by now. The fact that they have not suggests that even they would not find that to be a solid position to take.
I hope I don't come off as though I'm harping on you, because that is not my intent. But you know how the internet is...
No offense taken, we apparently just see things a bit differently. Over the years I've seen many nefs and hobblings and timegates added in response to players finding new ways to grind too much dil or mats.
Cryptic reacts to what their metrics show to be problems. That changes over time as loopholes are closed and farmers shift to what becomes the new easier dil grinding loopholes.
Contraband turn-ins were nerfed in a couple of ways (number needed then the time gate) because of farmers.
They used to let dil bonus weekends apply to some rep rewards including (if I recall correctly) rep completion. Enough people gamed this by waiting to complete reps, so they removed it.
People abused claiming recruit boxes in several different ways, so they closed those loopholes one by one.
It's a whack-a-mole arms race. Also, any change takes developer effort so just because they can see a new exploit doesn't mean they can make it a higher priority than something like releasing a new TFO on time.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
So I'm fairly new player and so far I was liking the game it was very time consuming making fc and struggling to upgrade gear for my toons and ship especially at the leveling speed which makes it impossible to upgrade gear to your current rank but you could always do 2-3 pieces a gear a day repeat rinse and eventually you could max your purples to lv65 I guess even with the limited dilith of 8k.
Today I log on went through my daily long grind but when I got to my omega marks to turn in to dilith Nothing
So I'm level one in omega so ouch lol
It takes me maybe 3 weeks on new characters to get to lv 65 so you can imagine the issue with this
someone mention it takes about 4 or so to get tier 5 literally grinding to get to just one of the areas in the rep system to lv 5 meaning I won't be doing any other TFO's except 1 for 4 months then the next one down the line because it wouldn't be worth it unless I need gear which I won't be able to upgrade to my actual characters level?
So won't this create huge wait times for joining TFOS?
someone said I can mine dilith but it's very limited.
Also, this game is very different then other games I play for example the episodes literally increase difficulty by your level which is cool if you have access to the gear to do the episode.
I give you an example of what happen to me I found a way to lv up my toon super fast before doing any of the episodes got to lv 60 something figure id go back and own the game I would just steamroll over it I rolled up in a what was supposed to be an easy episode and literally got gank i was like wtf
I try it with another toon and sure enough the game levels the difficulty as you level which was cool then not so cool now ouch.
here's what I don't get if you're going to do a drastic change why can't I combine marks all across account wide?
Usually, when you do a drastic change it's for the better they didn't even lower the cost of dilith it takes to upgrade gear to reflect the drastic change?
So now I'm forced to max out toon slots don't bother to upgrade gear because better luck getting it from the exchange maybe but I'm betting the price will go up for blues and even greens especially if there lvs that are 60+ just for equipment but the worst part is if I want dilith to upgrade my gear I'm betting they set it up so I have to buy zen to get refine dilith from the dilith store just to keep up.
I like playing this game because it's fun not a second job I'm only happy that im new and only lost 20$ on it but if this how it is I think I will be putting away my debit card.
I'm hoping this is some kinda glitch or mistake.
Nope, they closed a loophole that was being exploited. Nothing is broken.
It only takes 20 days to reach tier 5 on a new characters if you have already reached t5 on any one of your other characters. And when you do you get the completion bonus of marks and dil. You also get another 6,800 dil from the daily boxes while you work up to tier 5.
Why are you creating a bunch of new characters? To play them all, or for farming?
You don't need Mark XV Epic gear for playing story missions or Normal queues.
Also, if you have don R&D on a character you can craft Mark II VR gear using cheap white mats, then use either Phoneix tech upgrades or Superior tech upgrades to level it up. You can also buy Mk II crafted or lock box gear from the Exchange.
For a new character I usually just make them one Tactical console, a Neutronium console, and a shield cap console then some beams or cannons. 1 Superior upgrade will get them to level 5-7 so its not a lot of dil either.
Last night some Threads showed new unviewed Posts and they were the same as they were earlier in the day and cleared. Some had last posts of 3/23 or so. One was even from the beginning of March. They seemed to be concentrated in GNN.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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This was not a loophole and nothing was being exploited. This function was working as intended. Until recently someone got a hair up their... candle holder.