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Star Trek Discovery Season 02, Episode 09: "Project Deadelus" (Spoiler Warning)

mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,137 Arc User
Another episode directed by Johnathan Frakes, written by Michelle Paradise, who has become one of thew new Discovery Showrunners.
If this is a sign of things to come, things to come look very promising.

Spoilers to come now:

We finally learn more about who and what Airam is.
Unfortunately, we won't have much time to enjoy her presence anymore. Bad showrunners, only telling us about characters as we really get to know them... But I guess that kinda makes the impact harder, because she's been around since Season 1, Episode 3, and people were wondering what she is and what her story is since then.
However, I am not entirely sure her story is over - I actually wonder if maybe she doesn't get partially resurrected in Zora, the Discovery AI from the short trek Calypso.
It's also really nice seeing the crew scenes from Airam's memories, really some nice on-board camaraderie, making me want to see more of Detmer and Owosekun and the rest - though I guess I'd probably be worried if they start giving us more... They might just do it to take them away.

Also interesting - the Redshirt doesn't die, despite being left behind helpless, she actually saves the day, while Burnham fails the Command Training test that provided so much trouble for Troi, except in real life. (And Pike clears it with flying colors). Also an interesting misdirect in having her make note of Airam's behavior, but ultimately not being the person to figure things out.

The interaction between Spock and Burnham as well as Spock and Stamets were also great.
I think Ethan Peck is doing a better job than Quinto, actually, and someone on reddit might have identified a potential reason for it - Quinto-Spock's "anti-social" behavior seemed accidental, where as Nimoy and Peck's behavior seems deliberate. Don't know how much that is writing and how much that is acting, but it works.

Oh, and I think we're very clearly onto why Section 31 and AI aren't all that popular in the Federation - Control looks like it's going off-mission, and it might take Section 31 with it.
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Comments

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,172 Arc User
    I'll admit, the ending had me in tears. Not something that many Trek stories have done.

    I love Ethan Peck as Spock. I also love that his presence isn't overwhelming the story.



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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 4,700 Arc User
    My reaction to the ending:



    She may have just been a background character, but Ariam is one of the characters I've found most interesting in ST:D ever since she first appeared :(
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,213 Arc User
    We did get some background on Owosekun in the second episode (she was raised in a Luddite colony, but her parents rebelled and left it when she was a child; thus, she had a better insight into life on New Eden than anyone else on Discovery's crew).

    Here's hoping that's not a forewarning - she's an interesting character, and pretty easy on the eyes. :wink:

    Detmer, of course, has to hang around as a vivid reminder of what can happen when Burnham screws up. I also really liked her response when Pike started his "you don't have to go rogue along with me" speech - interrupting it with an impatient, "Heading, captain?"
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,699 Arc User
    edited March 16
    Nahn did the right thing where as Burnham failed her own Kobayashi Maru scenario with Airiam. Airiam got what she wanted and died remembering who she loved before she became a cyborg.

    Where is Burnham's logic these days? she scolds Spock for his lack of logic and yet the logic she grew up with has evaporated over the last two years. If she had remembered where she grew up and where she was going, logically she would of coldly chosen to airlock Airiam for the reasons that are quite simple to understand.

    Still not entirely convinced Control is an AI, i need a little more that vague hints pointing to it. It is curious to note the misuse of holographic tech, might be why it got discontinued until DS9?

    This Red Angel failed to show up to prevent a tragedy, so that heaps more suspicion on the persons motivations within the suit.

    Episode raises more questions than answers them.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,213 Arc User
    Episode raises more questions than answers them.
    And at this point in the season, I think that's a good thing.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    This Red Angel failed to show up to prevent a tragedy, so that heaps more suspicion on the persons motivations within the suit.

    Especially, when Control seems to be linked to the probe aliens or might even be the probe aliens.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,184 Arc User
    the red angel is future!burnham...calling it now​​
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  • stoutesstoutes Member Posts: 4,198 Arc User
    Ha, Shadow! Long time no see..

    I doubt it'll be Burnham, though it would be rather interesting to see if it is.

    The ending, while I'm at it, nearly felt a tingling in my emotional spectrum. Nearly.
    maxvitor wrote: »
    Nerf is OP, plz nerf
    That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.

    I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    the red angel is future!burnham...calling it now​​

    I am getting a weird Terminator vibe from the last two episodes with Burnham as John Connor.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,916 Bug Hunter
    edited March 17
    The episode was fantastic barring Burnham.
    I'm actually wondering what the show would have been like if it'd been Pike, Spock, and Enterprise that encountered T'Kuvma. A young, inexperienced Spock attempts the Vulcan Hello and mutinies. Pike is critically injured and sits out the war recovering and Spock is picked up by Lorca, goes to the Mirror Universe and picks up Mirror!Pike (who is promptly executed upon return to our universe because Starfleet does not hire génocidaires) where, after the War he is reunited with Pike who has taken command of the Discovery and everything else plays out as before.

    Still, the episode itself made me care more about Ariam in 40 minutes, than Voyager made me care about Harry, B'elanna, Chakotay, or Tom in seven years. I even knew more about what sort of person the redshirt was (Naan?) than I did Chekhov through two series of TOS and six films.

    It looks like Starfleet is having the same issue with Control and AI as it did with Augments after WWIII and will do exactly what it did there and massivly overreact to the potential by banning all forms of it until TNG where they start allowing VISORs again (which prove ridiculously easy to hack). Starfleet and the Federation can be bloody stupid sometimes.

    Control is obviously the reason S31 becomes the, still fully legitimate and legal, branch of Starfleet seen in DS9 that slightly fewer line officers know about but is still well known by the Admiralty, because Starfleet Admirals are collectively insane or stupid at all times and in all places.

    Seeing Ariam training with Reyes and socialising with Detmer, Owosekun, and Tilly was great. As usual I want them to become main characters. Come one DSC, be DS9 not TOS, VGR, or ENT. Viewers can learn to care about more than three characters at once.

    I am a little confused about the chain of command on the ship. Pike is job sharing with Saru but outranks him so that's fine. But who's the first officer? Ariam has sat on the chair a few times but Burnham is the golden-boy and does everything anyway. Naan is an actual commander. Detmer was in the Magic Meeting Room with all the high up people and is also a Commander (?), and there's the unseen Chief Engineer who is presumably also quite high up but never gets invited to the Magic Meeting Room and the CMO who is stuck in Sickbay her entire life.
    So who is actually the XO? Is it Saru or is he joint Captain? Is it Burnham or does she just but into every conversation as if she was? Was it Ariam? Who is the Third Officer? Is it Detmer? The CMO? Ariam? Is it also Burnham?

    An over-reliance on technology is a good way to explain away communication holograms and holo-training until the TNG era but it dosn't do anything about the desk projections. They are present in the TOS films and even the Klingons have them, so I guess Starfleet overreacted and stripped all technology down to the primitive looking TOS style for 2 decades before Bill (I bet it was Bill) said that was stupid and allowed the TOS film era to resume looking like the future and not 1980s Sweden.
    I think Ethan Peck is doing a better job than Quinto, actually, and someone on reddit might have identified a potential reason for it - Quinto-Spock's "anti-social" behavior seemed accidental, where as Nimoy and Peck's behavior seems deliberate. Don't know how much that is writing and how much that is acting, but it works.

    KT Spock seems very repressed and it seems deliberate. He dosn't have much of the underlying sass Prime Spock does in DSC, TOS, and the TOS films. That, I think, is because he's lost his world, and he feels he needs to be more what a Vulcan should be. Prime Spock's sass seems to come from his underlying humour form his Human side. KT Spock's seems to come from the slightly cruel sarcasm of pure Vulcans.​​
    Post edited by artan42 on
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  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,081 Arc User
    Damn, this was a good episode.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,213 Arc User
    Just to help out, Artan:

    1) Saru is the first officer. He was captain for a short time after the death of Lorca, because they weren't exactly in a place to slide back into the chain of command. Pike is temporarily in command, but Discovery has an assigned captain waiting for them on Vulcan (which is why they were headed that way when they got Enterprise's distress signal). Burnham's as low on the totem pole as she can get and still hold her rank; she's not really in charge of anything, and Pike listens to her mostly because she's Spock's foster sister and he has great respect for Spock. Think of her as a backup sensor officer and general gofer.

    2) Burnham doesn't "do everything", although it may seem that way occasionally because she's the main viewpoint character. I think what's throwing people on this is that they're used to the main character in Trek being the CO. She gets ordered around by Stamets a fair bit, for starters; she's sent on away missions largely, I believe, because Pike feels she's more expendable than important people like Saru or Detmer.

    3) Mirror!Pike would not have been instantly executed for the same reason Mirror!Georgiou wasn't - the Federation isn't the Klingon Empire. They don't, in general, do executions, certainly not for "crimes" committed by simple obedience to regulations by someone who hadn't even met the Feds yet. (I have similar arguments with my roommate, who thinks the cloak in TNG:"Pegasus" should have been developed further, until they could fire weapons while out of phase and blow up planets from the inside. There seems to be a mindset among some people that the Federation ought to be the Terran Empire.)
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 661 Arc User
    > @jonsills said:
    > Burnham's as low on the totem pole as she can get and still hold her rank; she's not really in charge of anything

    I was sure she is actually the ship's science officer.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,916 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    1) Saru is the first officer. He was captain for a short time after the death of Lorca, because they weren't exactly in a place to slide back into the chain of command. Pike is temporarily in command, but Discovery has an assigned captain waiting for them on Vulcan (which is why they were headed that way when they got Enterprise's distress signal).

    The refer to the relationship as 'joint custody' several times and Pike goes out of his way to agree everything not related to the Red Angel with Saru which makes it look a lot less like a CO XO relationship and more like a visiting Admiral acting as captain (such as Cornwall in this very episode).
    jonsills wrote: »
    Burnham's as low on the totem pole as she can get and still hold her rank; she's not really in charge of anything, and Pike listens to her mostly because she's Spock's foster sister and he has great respect for Spock. Think of her as a backup sensor officer and general gofer.

    Is she not Chief Science Officer? She's got her own bridge station and dosn't report to anybody. Stamats and Ariem are both science but only Spore Drive positions so it's no them. I don't think it's Linus either.
    jonsills wrote: »
    2) Burnham doesn't "do everything", although it may seem that way occasionally because she's the main viewpoint character. I think what's throwing people on this is that they're used to the main character in Trek being the CO.

    By 'do everything' I mean she performs the same function Spock, Data, and Tuvok (ad later Seven) did, which was to have an answer for everything, not that she has actual responsibilities to do everything. The official Exposition Officer as it were.
    jonsills wrote: »
    She gets ordered around by Stamets a fair bit, for starters; she's sent on away missions largely, I believe, because Pike feels she's more expendable than important people like Saru or Detmer.

    I'm sure she volunteers for the Landing Parties. Rather than is sent on them. I don't pay a lot of attention to her though, despite her focus she's a lot less interesting than Pike or Saru.
    jonsills wrote: »
    3) Mirror!Pike would not have been instantly executed for the same reason Mirror!Georgiou wasn't - the Federation isn't the Klingon Empire. They don't, in general, do executions, certainly not for "crimes" committed by simple obedience to regulations by someone who hadn't even met the Feds yet.

    The execution bit was just my wishful thinking. Regardless of actually holding a Nuremberg for the Emperor, listing génocidaire on her CV under 'about me' section automatically disqualifies her from any employment in the Federation even if it doesn't book her an appointment with One-Drop Trooper.
    Starfleet have done a lot of monumentally stupid things, but employing the Emperor is the most overtly evil thing they've ever done.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    edited March 17
    artan42 wrote: »
    An over-reliance on technology is a good way to explain away communication holograms and holo-training until the TNG era but it dosn't do anything about the desk projections. They are present in the TOS films and even the Klingons have them, so I guess Starfleet overreacted and stripped all technology down to the primitive looking TOS style for 2 decades before Bill (I bet it was Bill said that was stupid and allowed the TOS film era to resume looking like the future and not 1980s Sweden.

    At least the Federation's overreaction to technology is far better than Dune's overreaction to technology.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,213 Arc User
    The Chief Science Officer used to be Cdr. Ariam. No idea who's going to fill the job now, but I think they might want someone with more general knowledge than a xenoanthropologist (Burnham's specialty).
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited March 17
    > @jonsills said:
    > The Chief Science Officer used to be Cdr. Ariam. No idea who's going to fill the job now, but I think they might want someone with more general knowledge than a xenoanthropologist (Burnham's specialty).

    Airiam was the spore drive operations officer. Burnam is the science officer I am sure. As of season 2 anyway.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,916 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Chief Science Officer used to be Cdr. Ariam. No idea who's going to fill the job now, but I think they might want someone with more general knowledge than a xenoanthropologist (Burnham's specialty).

    Ariam was a science officer but her role was Spore Drive Operations from the bridge (as Stammats was from the Spore Hub). She was only working on the Spheres communication because she was a cyborg not because it was under the Science remit (as Tilly was also working on it).​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,184 Arc User
    the red angel is future!burnham...calling it now

    okay, it wasn't a future burnham...but i wasn't far off - the red angel is RELATED to burnham​​
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    the red angel is future!burnham...calling it now

    okay, it wasn't a future burnham...but i wasn't far off - the red angel is RELATED to burnham​​

    It was pretty obvious when it was revealed who worked on Project Daedalus. After all, why would a time travel device from about 20 years ago be used by someone from centuries from the 23rd Century?

    So the theory that a future version of Control infected Airiam to alter the current Control appears to be correct. It looks like whatever happened to Leland was caused by Control.

    The technology of Discovery seems to be extremely inconsistent as far as Cybernetics go. The 23rd Century was able to build a full Cyborg body that has computational capabilities similar to Data and replace Keyla Detmer's eye with a cybernetic eye. About 10 years later we have Miranda Jones wear a Sensor Web to 'see' and the 24th Century has Geordi wear that VISOR and only gets cybernetic eyes in First Contact. I can understand the Federation no longer using neural cybernetics due to security issues, but it makes no sense for the Federation to use less advanced technology to deal with treatable handicaps.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,184 Arc User
    and when you figure VISORs can be easily TRIBBLE and the instance in which one was led to the destruction of starfleet's flagship...​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,752 Arc User
    After watching this one I had thought Ariam might be the Red Angel.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,320 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    After watching this one I had thought Ariam might be the Red Angel.
    Yeah are we sure she's dead? I'm not.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,752 Arc User
    Yeah are we sure she's dead? I'm not.

    I never said she was dead or not. We know for sure she isn't the Red Angel now.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    After watching this one I had thought Ariam might be the Red Angel.
    Yeah are we sure she's dead? I'm not.

    We saw her upload some of her memories into a computer and we saw her memories get erased after she 'died' to erase any of the infection. A possible scenario is the remnants of Airiam becomes the Discovery's AI.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,752 Arc User
    I'm guessing that since we now know the Red Angel isn't Burnham, Burnham (or her mother) are the originators of the AI that is trying to take over.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,614 Arc User
    Originator is not quite correct. Burnham's mother might have helped originally create Control since she was involved with creating Section 31 technology, but it is more likely someone else's department. There are numerous ways that future Control could have altered present Control due to the numerous methods of time travel available in Star Trek. After all, we don't know if future Control is trying to change the timeline or preserve its existence. If future Control never infected present Control through Airiam, then it might have remained a well-behaved AI.
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