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Why do we have to side with the Turei?

Every time we get to the point in the storyline where the Vaarduwar are introduced, well, I feel the missions just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.
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  • luminaire#0745 luminaire Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    For the same reason we can't bombard the Talaxian asteroid colony with quantum torpedoes while their shields are down, or pistol whip D'Tan to make him stop talking. The burden of being the good guys.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Same reason we're forced to side with the gingerbreadmen rather than the snowmen who had the land stolen from them....

    It's what was written beforehand, except in that case we can easily walk away because it's a problem of their own making and we're not barred from progressing if we do.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    > @fury#0751 said:
    > Every time we get to the point in the storyline where the Vaarduwar are introduced, well, I feel the missions just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.

    The Vaarduwar are Iconian proxies, something that should have been clear once you find out about the Bluegill infestation. As annoying as the Turei are, they al least aren’t puppets of the Enemy.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,551 Arc User
    fury wrote: »
    Every time we get to the point in the storyline where the Vaarduwar are introduced, well, I feel the missions just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.
    The typical response to a distress call saying: "Help, our world is under attack" is of course to come over there and join the attack on the planet.

    In the Mirrorverse, that is probably true.
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  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 622 Arc User
    edited February 15
    fury wrote: »
    Every time we get to the point in the storyline where the Vaarduwar are introduced, well, I feel the missions just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.

    And yet that's not the worst part when it comes to the Vaadwaur controversy... Just wait till you have to run the Kobali storyarc, and you will boldly cringe like no one has cringed before. Don't get me started on that <.<
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    Mfw the Federation displays their moral bankruptcy by helping the Kobali squat like vultures on the sleepers and desecrate Vaarduar corpses against their express wishes
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,197 Arc User
    Mfw the Federation displays their moral bankruptcy by helping the Kobali squat like vultures on the sleepers and desecrate Vaarduar corpses against their express wishes

    At least any necrophiliacs playing STO get their dream bridge officer out of the deal.

    The rest of us just endure.

  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,558 Arc User
    I don't care for either side, neither the Zombies camping on a world waiting for the stasis pods to fail nor the genocidal lunatics trying to enslave the universe.

    I just shoot the ones who're shooting at me.
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  • smooshy#7462 smooshy Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    Because policy decisions are made a higher level than ours, and we follow orders that are not, on their face, immoral. Whose side we're on is not an easy choice, if even a choice is to be made, but when those choices ARE made by presidents, chancellors, and ambassadors, we execute. This aspect of STO is actually pretty realistic, and we wouldn't have the luxury of the "Picard Maneuver," in which we remove our pips to do something "right" only to get them right back next movie.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 622 Arc User
    Because policy decisions are made a higher level than ours, and we follow orders that are not, on their face, immoral. Whose side we're on is not an easy choice, if even a choice is to be made, but when those choices ARE made by presidents, chancellors, and ambassadors, we execute. This aspect of STO is actually pretty realistic, and we wouldn't have the luxury of the "Picard Maneuver," in which we remove our pips to do something "right" only to get them right back next movie.

    And yet, disobeying official orders to do what is right is precisely the central point of many Star Trek episodes. If STO is supposed to reflect the show, then they should also include such an aspect.
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 4,530 Arc User
    That would put another aspect to the game which could make it interesting.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,651 Arc User
    Disobeying illegal orders is justifiable. However, any instance in which orders are disobeyed should be followed by an immediate inquiry, if not a full-blown court martial, in order to determine whether disobedience is justified.

    In the case of the Kobali, whose only method of reproduction involves dead bodies, disobedience is not justified. The Kobali are careful not to kill living beings in their reproduction; they only harvest corpses from millennia-old stasis chambers that have failed. As we have seen no evidence of funerary practices nor reverence of the dead among the Vaadwaur, we can safely conclude that their only objection to the process is the odd idea that the Kobali are "stealing" from them.

    (On a side note, I've never understood why the Klingons, who have no care whatsoever for the body once the spirit has departed for Sto'vo'kor (or Gre'thor, as the case may be), haven't made wholesale arrangements with the Kobali for disposal of Klingon corpses. For that matter, would the Kobali government be able to bid so high in a Ferengi funeral auction that they could win the entire body, rather than mere slices thereof?)
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,558 Arc User
    The problem with the Vaadwaur is the Kobali refuse to give back the still living civilians they're keeping captive under the city to their people. Well, that and the Vaadwaur are being led by a genocidal lunatic...

    Honestly, the Federation could probably easily help with their reproduction problem; people in real life are willing to donate their body/organs after death, why would the Federation not be willing to do the same?
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,401 Community Moderator
    This thread is about the Turei, not the Kobali "controversy," please stay on topic. Thank you.
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,197 Arc User
    This thread is about the Turei, not the Kobali "controversy," please stay on topic. Thank you.

    It was a complaint about lack of choice in more than just the Turei mission though:
    ... well, I feel ** the missions ** just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.

    As already mentioned it boils down to the fact that there is no "evil" or "dark side" story path in STO.

    Vaadwaur are genocidal pawns of the also genocidal Iconians. Even though our own uniforms are stained red (, green, blue...) with the blood of a thousand slaughtered enemies we only butcher them in the name of JUSTICE and/or HONOR!



  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,754 Arc User
    edited February 16
    Should be noted that while our captain has quite the body count, how much of those were truly unavoidble. Even with KDF you rarely if ever (I've not done all the side quests) go out of your way to kill enemies that aren't actively fighting you.

    It's less that our captain is genocidal maniac using flimsy justification to butcher people for funsies but rather the way the enemies are written they're so fanatical that there's no way to ally with the antagonists that wasn't "I want to be evil for the sake being evil".

    That's one of the reason I like the Hur'q as antagonists, they're mindless so it's justified why they're so clearly against our very existance, we're literally just something to devour for them and it's the only thing they care about.

    The Iconians and their slaves just want to either enslave or kill us, and Kentari (well the antagonistic ones) want to kill everything that isn't them as do the Undine and the Tzenkethi are so fixed on their chosen path that they're blind to options that don't involve genocide. there's no moral grey areas there.

    EDIT:Why we help the turei is that in the end they're not actively against us, something the vaadwaur are. There's no sane scenario where allying with Gaul would be a good thing, rather then a self-destructively dumb one.

    And that's with the aid of hindsight, remember that the turei aren't a STO invention, USS Voyager encountered them before and they are allies then against the vaadwaur, who had betrayed the Voyager crew.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,444 Arc User
    edited February 16
    If we could make choices like that in this game do you think Bajor would be here? It would have been glassed and in the middle a statue to the great Gul Dukat

    Not to mention we are the "good guys" and the Vaadwaur are clearly being "bad" cause they beat it over our heads with it... although I like their style makes me nostalgic for better times
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,243 Arc User
    ... well, I feel ** the missions ** just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.
    As already mentioned it boils down to the fact that there is no "evil" or "dark side" story path in STO.

    Vaadwaur are genocidal pawns of the also genocidal Iconians. Even though our own uniforms are stained red (, green, blue...) with the blood of a thousand slaughtered enemies we only butcher them in the name of JUSTICE and/or HONOR!
    Yeah as heroes we don't get to make any choices that are actually BAD, merely morally ambiguous. While the Kobali do a few things that are objectionable, the Vaadwaur are far worse. If the player(and the Voth) hadn't protected the Turei, then the Vaadwaur would likely have subjugated or killed them.
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,754 Arc User
    I might be in the minority but I find the "evil for the sake of being evil" dark side stories to be really boring, ultimately it just boils down to picking the most evil option regardless of how sense it makes.

    As I mentioned before while our captains have a rather large body count, few if any of those deaths were at all avoidble, I can't think of any UFP (including AoY and AoD), KDF or RRN mission where our character willingly and knowingly and without any provocation slaughtered defenseless targets.

    We're simply not allowed to be the "pure irredeemble evil" bad guys, even if some of the actions our characters do are morally questionble.
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,558 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    As I mentioned before while our captains have a rather large body count, few if any of those deaths were at all avoidble, I can't think of any UFP (including AoY and AoD), KDF or RRN mission where our character willingly and knowingly and without any provocation slaughtered defenseless targets.

    Closest we go the doing that was "That" mission, where we were slaughtering scientists and doctors against the objections of our own officers and reacted to learning the truth by slaughtering even more.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    Turie: "We are under attack! Please help us!"

    Me: "Is this true?"

    Turei: "Yes! Don't you see the explosions?"

    Me: *nods* "Why not just hide in underspace like the rest of your people?"

    Turei: "That makes sense! Let's do it!"

    Alliance leadership: "You did something that made sense! You're FIRED!"

    Me: "YAY! A vacation from you numbskulls!"
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,754 Arc User
    tyler002 wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    As I mentioned before while our captains have a rather large body count, few if any of those deaths were at all avoidble, I can't think of any UFP (including AoY and AoD), KDF or RRN mission where our character willingly and knowingly and without any provocation slaughtered defenseless targets.

    Closest we go the doing that was "That" mission, where we were slaughtering scientists and doctors against the objections of our own officers and reacted to learning the truth by slaughtering even more.

    Yeah and that mission has since been removed, not mention even when it was avaible it felt really off compared to the rest of the story.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,423 Arc User
    edited February 16
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I might be in the minority but I find the "evil for the sake of being evil" dark side stories to be really boring.
    One thing I have always liked is that outside of Hakeev, and the Breen, the villains of STO are typically not that.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,579 Arc User
    > @neoakiraii said:
    > If we could make choices like that in this game do you think Bajor would be here? It would have been glassed and in the middle a statue to the great Gul Dukat
    >
    > Not to mention we are the "good guys" and the Vaadwaur are clearly being "bad" cause they beat it over our heads with it... although I like their style makes me nostalgic for better times

    Nothing like that would happen to Bajor in my game. Nor can I think of a single reason for that to happen ever.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

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    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I might be in the minority but I find the "evil for the sake of being evil" dark side stories to be really boring.
    One thing I have always liked is that outside of Hakeev, and the Breen, the villains of STO are typically not that.

    The Breen aren't evil though. Just the one clan of them was. Remember the Breen Confederacy is made up of multiple clans. Quark lists the Breen as the best mercenaries one can hire.

    In case of the game, the Breen are after the weapons of the Preservers. Boy. did they ever get the raspberry there, when they learned there was no weapons. It really jammed their sensors, and you ended up having to deal with a berserk clan leader. After that, they're not a problem any more. After that...
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,423 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    After that, they're not a problem any more. After that...
    Not really, Breen slavers are still mentioning as raiding the Deferi during Victory is Life. That one clan of Breen was more extreme then most, but the Breen, as a whole, are raiders and slavers.

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,197 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I might be in the minority but I find the "evil for the sake of being evil" dark side stories to be really boring, ultimately it just boils down to picking the most evil option regardless of how sense it makes.

    Obsidian did a great job of writing the dark side (not evil) path for KOTOR 2. It was much more about gaining power and imposing your will on the galaxy than kicking puppies. Anyone who can see the flaws in a republic can at least consider the idea that authoritarian rule could work better with the right autocrat at the top of the empire.

  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    After that, they're not a problem any more. After that...
    Not really, Breen slavers are still mentioning as raiding the Deferi during Victory is Life. That one clan of Breen was more extreme then most, but the Breen, as a whole, are raiders and slavers.

    Yes, but that's all we know of the Breen. They're a secretive species. Outside of what we've run into, we don't know jack.

    But this same statement can be cast over a lot of other species. Even human colonies that are independent of the Federation.

    Even the Ferengi will buy and sell slaves, as long as those slaves aren't Ferengi. Yet, we have Ferengi captains in Starfleet.

    "Despite, or perhaps because of, never having endured slavery themselves, Ferengi showed themselves willing to engage in slave-trading and the capturing of aliens for slave labor if profitable. (ENT: "Acquisition"; TNG: "Rascals")" - Mem-Alpha

    As you said, they're mentioned as raiding the Deferi. I mean, who really cares there? It's the Deferi. The Breen are helping them maintain the oh so important balance they love, just on the population side of things. To the Deferi, I don't imagine the Breen raids are viewed as bad, but as "maintaining the balance."

    The Cardassians and Dominion are far worse. Both of them are now allies. The Klingons were seen as raiders, now an ally. The Romulans, raiding and enslaving, now an ally.

    SO looking at it just form the Alliance stand point. The whole "good" and "bad" arguments become moot, when Four out of Five members of said Alliance are guilty of the same thing. You can up that to Five out of Six members, if you count the Ferengi.

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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,423 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Even the Ferengi will buy and sell slaves, as long as those slaves aren't Ferengi.
    That was ended by Rom when he became Nagus and instituted massive reforms into Ferengi society between the end of DS9 and the begining of STO
    trennan wrote: »
    The Cardassians and Dominion are far worse.
    Cardassians overthrew their tyrannical government and replaced it with a democratically elected one that ended all the practices of the Obsidian Order and previous Military State.

    The Dominion only became allies just after ViL once the Female Changling was dead, the other Founder learned of her involvement in the creation of the Hur'q problem, and they not only agreed to stop doing those things, but also began instituting massive program to undo the Jem'Hadar's addiction to Ket White so they can be free.
    trennan wrote: »
    The Romulans, raiding and enslaving, now an ally.
    The Romulan Star Empire did that, not the Romulan Republic, and the RSE is still an enemy state.

    You just kind of proved my point, all of these races only became good once they stopped doing those things.
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