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An end to the argument about faction-agnostic content

Okay... This argument about faction-specific vs faction-agnostic content is way past old. While I personally miss the former and wish it would come back, I acknowledge that it just isn't going to happen.

Might I suggest looking at it another way?

Federation-specific content is also gone. According to the game's current narrative, the UFP, the KDF, the NRR, and the J'H and temporal agents originating from the 23rd century are all part of a newly forming Galactic Alliance. Federation morals/ideals have been adopted by the Alliance, because they have proven themselves to WORK. After all, that is how official Trek canon spins it.

Where would the Klingon Empire be had the federation abandoned its morals and ideals after the destruction of Praxis? The federation stepped up and extended a helping hand. And clearly Federation ideal-drivien ecological policies allowed Kronos to be spared extinction-level pollution of its atmosphere, though temporary evacuation would have been required. The Klingon Empire owes its survival to Federation ideals.

And the Romulans? With the destruction of Romulus, it was Federation Ideals, which the Klingon Empire went along with, that helped Romulan refugees establish a new homeworld and brought about a new Romulan government that is far more amicable than that of the RSE and its Tal'shiar masters.

The Dominion could have saved itself a lot of trouble had the founders simply taken Odo's word that the solids in the Federation were not the same as the ones which drove them into isolation. And that air of superiority exhibited in Laas, if a much more common attribute to the changeling species than Odo's more humble disposition, I say they brought the persecution on themselves and simply made so-called victimhood the excuse to strive to control and dominate, rather than attempt to co-exist. Without Federation ideals, Odo might not have offered to cure the great link in exchange for ending the war. So the Dominion also owes its survival to the Federation.

And the temporal agents recruiting 23rd century Federation captains? They are agents of the Alliance from the future, doing what is needed to preserve history to make sure that the Alliance forms as it should. And this point in time is where that formation occurs, beginning with UFP/KDF/NRR/JH cooperation.

So yeah... It is now accurate to say that we are all participating in activities as part of the Alliance. And rolling A UFP toon is in effect rolling an Alliance toon with a Federation origin story...
When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
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Comments

  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I do you think your right to point this out. That it is current trend these days and where they have been going with. The storyline has from separate factions to the formation of the Alpha Quadrant alliance to what will become the Galactic Union of Planets. . As the 25th century really is a trying time for all the alpha and beta quarderent powers. We know they will be the most tested when it comes to the Sphere Builders. That this alliance will make way for the Galactic Union seen at the time of the temporal accords.
    I think they should make a new Prefix for Alliance starships, Maybe adding in something like the A.C.A. or A.Q.S. as an option for alliance starships. Something that can represent the alliance. Maybe as a reward for doing the missions that revolve around the formation of the Alliance. As much as I would like to see faction centric content, I do think they need to go more into what the Alpha Quardant Alliance represents and what functions each faction has in it. How they convinced J'mpok to stay into it and other things.

    They do need to make more missions involving it and how its evolving over time and explain why Romulans and Jem Hadar can use most of their allied factions ships at the same time. In game lore to explore what the factions got out of this very good deal with them. Is something I've been wanting to see. They don't explore much in the way of how this deal was formed and what the type of deals were made with Federation and Klingon Empire. I know D'tan and Odo, made some form of treaty with them and that involved making their officers work alongside their respective factions. What did they have to give up exactly for it all to work out. What was the sacrifice D'tan and Odo made. There has to be a lot more to it the only thing I can see coming from it is to make sure both the republic and dominions forces are divided so they do not become a threat to both the Federation and Klingon Empires in the future. You could say conquest with a pen.

    It says this on Memory Beta.
    The Galactic Union was a loose alliance of the major races of the Milky Way Galaxy active in the 28th century. It evolved from the 25th century Alpha Quadrant Alliance. The Temporal Accords were proposed by the Galactic Union and signed in the year 2769 and led to the Temporal Cold War.

    Post edited by thevampinator on
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Officer exchanges with other governments is a long standing Federation/Starfleet practice. I would postulate they try to add it to any treaty they sign with another major government. This helps both cultures learn about each other. Now clearly they can't always manage it (Cardassia, Sheliak, Tholian) but its mentioned a lot in TNG, for example the Benzite in the same episode that Riker was an exchange officer on a Klingon ship. Kurn later, though he pulled strings to get to Worf's ship. Moving into DS9 we have officers from different nations working alongside each other under a single commander, as well as a number of "specialist" civillians supporting them.
    According to the Path to 2409 the Federation created a dual citizen program to make it easier for people outside the Federation to join Starfleet, and both the Ferengi and Cardassians passed laws to allow their people to partake in that program. A furthering of this kind of program.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Officer exchanges with other governments is a long standing Federation/Starfleet practice. I would postulate they try to add it to any treaty they sign with another major government. This helps both cultures learn about each other. Now clearly they can't always manage it (Cardassia, Sheliak, Tholian) but its mentioned a lot in TNG, for example the Benzite in the same episode that Riker was an exchange officer on a Klingon ship. Kurn later, though he pulled strings to get to Worf's ship. Moving into DS9 we have officers from different nations working alongside each other under a single commander, as well as a number of "specialist" civillians supporting them.

    Could be the reason but, here is the thing this is different this is more then just giving exchange officers its giving them access to almost every advanced ship both factions have. Of Course Klingons and Federation must have a lot of shipyards and spare ships just like that. Maybe they are doing it for two reasons one could be to absorb them into their existing factions and the second so they could put in a buffer between the Federation and Klingon Empire who have bitter tastes in their mouths for each other. They agreed to it at first only because of Temars actions, but D'tan was desperate for a deal and at the time the two powers were at war so the conditions were they would send republic officer's to back both powers into their war by requiring them to work for one or the other. My guess granting both powers resources in the republic sector as another condition for helping build up the romulan republc and protect them from the worst of the Romulan Star Empire and giving up romulan technological advancements but not their ships to the two powers. The reason why the Federation and klingon empire was willing to part with ships, to the jem hadar forces, might very well be an act of desperation. They knew the threat the Hurq posed, so that move was more in an act of desperation. As Hurq swarms could be even just as bad of a threat. If they were to go unchecked within the Gamma Quadrant could have layed waste to the Alpha and beta quadrants.
    This is just my theory of why they gave so many ships for the weakened Dominion and the newly formed republic.

    But the out of game reason I think we all know. The way the game was designed only allows for two major factions. Everything else has to be a half faction. I do have my theory maybe one day Cryptic can confirm or deny it they had to remove the republic barrier on tier five and tier six in order to allow the Jemmies to have them. As they would have the least amount of ships in the game. So they might not had much a choice but to remove the coding. Otherwise they might have kept it. As they had to use the same half faction thing the Romulan republic had to add in this faction to the source engine.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    Okay... This argument about faction-specific vs faction-agnostic content is way past old. ...

    Might I suggest looking at it another way?
    No.

    Do a cross faction bridge invite and go to your ship's transporter room. The transporter officer will attack a player of the opposite faction. I find this most gratifying as he doesn't ask for your permission and still knows instinctively that the most reasonable course of action is to draw his weapon and shoot you... but they should give the poor fella more hit points.

    The game's inner workings have still got it right, the guy in my signature has got it right, and I changed the wording in red just for you.

    Also, sometimes it's fun to be stubborn :wink:

    Maybe the game will go retro in a future story line? Season 72: The Alliance Collapses - Total War :smiley:
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  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    To be honest, a lot of credit is given to the Federation. However, while it was the Federation that wanted all factions and half factions to join, they couldn't have gotten where they are without the others. In fact, if it wasn't for the Romulans giving the cloak to the Defiant, things would have ended a lot differently for DS9 (more times than once). If not for the Klingons war tactics, and sheer number of ships, there are times when the Federation would have not made it.

    Instead of giving all the credit to the Federation, as the OP did, I think it is better to say that the Federation knew that even with all their morals, they wouldn't have been able to survive any more than the others without their help, and the lack of Federation morals they brought to the table.

    Personally, I do like that some of the missions eventually merge together somewhat smoothly. However, I would also like to see some faction specific missions where the individual factions have to handle things that are specific to their own faction at times. Though, I know why they don't. It is quicker and easier to do single missions for all, than to do faction specific missions. And I would prefer to have better quality missions done, than to see more of the poor quality missions that had rushed dialog that didn't quite fit.

    With that said, one thing I would like to see them do is a few more Romulan missions before forcing you to choose a faction to play as. The way the Klingon missions work, it is a whole lot smoother merger into the Federation style missions. But, the Romulans story like just stops abruptly, and you have to choose a faction to become. That has always made it feel more like a half faction, because you are then a Romulan character, fighting for either the KDF or Federation. But the Klingons still feel like a full Klingon faction fighting for the KDF (even though the missions are more Federation styled).

    But even if they don't do that, I am still okay with the way things are. I just hope that they stop taking missions out of the game, without already having replacement missions to put in their place.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,212 Arc User
    I've always taken exception to 'it's federation content' comments, when it's clearly written as 'Alliance content'. There are just some bitter KDF and Roms out there who'd prefer dragging the wiser Feds, KDF, and Roms into yet another pointless conflict......and yes, I do realise literally every episode is about us fighting someone :lol:

    Unfortunately, none combat missions do not make for interesting content in an RPG, maybe on a TV series but not this. The unification of the 3 major powers into the 'Alliance' is the major plot point in STO and the story point of view is from the 'Hero's' perspective, independant of every other player. The contacts in the missions vary, and include quite often a contact from the Feds, KDF or Rom Republic.
    razar2380 wrote: »
    To be honest, a lot of credit is given to the Federation. However, while it was the Federation that wanted all factions and half factions to join, they couldn't have gotten where they are without the others. In fact, if it wasn't for the Romulans giving the cloak to the Defiant, things would have ended a lot differently for DS9 (more times than once). If not for the Klingons war tactics, and sheer number of ships, there are times when the Federation would have not made it.

    Instead of giving all the credit to the Federation, as the OP did, I think it is better to say that the Federation knew that even with all their morals, they wouldn't have been able to survive any more than the others without their help, and the lack of Federation morals they brought to the table.

    Personally, I do like that some of the missions eventually merge together somewhat smoothly. However, I would also like to see some faction specific missions where the individual factions have to handle things that are specific to their own faction at times. Though, I know why they don't. It is quicker and easier to do single missions for all, than to do faction specific missions. And I would prefer to have better quality missions done, than to see more of the poor quality missions that had rushed dialog that didn't quite fit.

    With that said, one thing I would like to see them do is a few more Romulan missions before forcing you to choose a faction to play as. The way the Klingon missions work, it is a whole lot smoother merger into the Federation style missions. But, the Romulans story like just stops abruptly, and you have to choose a faction to become. That has always made it feel more like a half faction, because you are then a Romulan character, fighting for either the KDF or Federation. But the Klingons still feel like a full Klingon faction fighting for the KDF (even though the missions are more Federation styled).

    But even if they don't do that, I am still okay with the way things are. I just hope that they stop taking missions out of the game, without already having replacement missions to put in their place.

    Razar.

    The Romulans have more unique episodes (26) than any other faction, way more than 2409 Feds and KDF. Their story does not stop abruptly. And considering BILLIONS were wiped out by Hobus, they will take a hundred or so years before they came become a viable 'major power', so they cannot be a full faction, even by this time, barely 30 years.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I've always taken exception to 'it's federation content' comments, when it's clearly written as 'Alliance content'. There are just some bitter KDF and Roms out there who'd prefer dragging the wiser Feds, KDF, and Roms into yet another pointless conflict......and yes, I do realise literally every episode is about us fighting someone :lol:

    Unfortunately, none combat missions do not make for interesting content in an RPG, maybe on a TV series but not this. The unification of the 3 major powers into the 'Alliance' is the major plot point in STO and the story point of view is from the 'Hero's' perspective, independant of every other player. The contacts in the missions vary, and include quite often a contact from the Feds, KDF or Rom Republic.
    razar2380 wrote: »
    To be honest, a lot of credit is given to the Federation. However, while it was the Federation that wanted all factions and half factions to join, they couldn't have gotten where they are without the others. In fact, if it wasn't for the Romulans giving the cloak to the Defiant, things would have ended a lot differently for DS9 (more times than once). If not for the Klingons war tactics, and sheer number of ships, there are times when the Federation would have not made it.

    Instead of giving all the credit to the Federation, as the OP did, I think it is better to say that the Federation knew that even with all their morals, they wouldn't have been able to survive any more than the others without their help, and the lack of Federation morals they brought to the table.

    Personally, I do like that some of the missions eventually merge together somewhat smoothly. However, I would also like to see some faction specific missions where the individual factions have to handle things that are specific to their own faction at times. Though, I know why they don't. It is quicker and easier to do single missions for all, than to do faction specific missions. And I would prefer to have better quality missions done, than to see more of the poor quality missions that had rushed dialog that didn't quite fit.

    With that said, one thing I would like to see them do is a few more Romulan missions before forcing you to choose a faction to play as. The way the Klingon missions work, it is a whole lot smoother merger into the Federation style missions. But, the Romulans story like just stops abruptly, and you have to choose a faction to become. That has always made it feel more like a half faction, because you are then a Romulan character, fighting for either the KDF or Federation. But the Klingons still feel like a full Klingon faction fighting for the KDF (even though the missions are more Federation styled).

    But even if they don't do that, I am still okay with the way things are. I just hope that they stop taking missions out of the game, without already having replacement missions to put in their place.

    Razar.

    The Romulans have more unique episodes (26) than any other faction, way more than 2409 Feds and KDF. Their story does not stop abruptly. And considering BILLIONS were wiped out by Hobus, they will take a hundred or so years before they came become a viable 'major power', so they cannot be a full faction, even by this time, barely 30 years.

    Well there isn't as many feds and other factions going to Nimbus now either so they pretty much basically own the Nimbus Storyline while its an optional for all the other factions.

    Each faction has their strong points. The Major Four Members are the Federation, Romulan Republic, Klingon Empire and the Ferengi Alliance all four of those powers you are able to do Admiralty missions for.
    The Members of the Alliance listing the traits the four major powers give to the alliance along with the others that have joined the alliance or are members that we know of.

    Federation have the numbers and the resources. They have many member worlds they can call on for Aid. Making them one of the most powerful of the Alliance Members
    Kdf has the war planners and has strong warriors and ships meant for war. They are the second most powerful of member factions.
    Romulans are the glue and the diplomats. Also New Romulus was the meeting place for the continuation of the Alliance and maybe one day will be its capital.
    Ferengi Alliance are the traders, the ones who sell the most important items the alliance might need. But they hold out, on weapons that could have really had helped the alliance. But then the alliance did not ask them.
    Cardassion Union also part of the Alliance.
    Deferi are also members of the alliance. They are keepers of the Balance
    At the end of the Hurq storyline the Dominion becomes a member.
    Voth Separatists also part of the alliance
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    I'm not so foolish as to believe there will ever be true factionalization. The development team has stated in multiple ways that they dislike the idea, won't do it, and wish it had never been done in the first place.

    But it appears to be too much to ask even for dialogue options which suit the various races. We all have to speak in the bland tones of Federation appeasement and consider everyone's inalienable alien rights. I don't need branching storylines; the story can go exactly the same way. What I want is to be able to call Cooper a sniveling coward, to inform Admiral Quinn that his failure of security has endangered the whole war effort, and to tell Odo he is an honorless dog for getting millions of civilians killed just to make a point.

    It is the complete homogenization of the races that bothers me. Star Trek is very Planet of Hats, and always has been. Some see this as a failing of the franchise: so be it. But in STO, there's only one hat, and we all have to wear it.

    Can't my Klingon worry, once in a while, about personal honor?
    Can't my Romulan consider, once in a while, how her actions reflect on her family?

    Apparently, no, because all of the dialogue is written from the perspective of an idealized Starfleet Captain.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    You want to say all those things? Then say all those things. I've had some pretty choice words for the higher-ups from time to time, especially that racist biznatch T'Nae. Sure, it can fetch some odd looks from other people in the room, but that's their problem, not yours.

    But since, just as in most episodes of the shows, that won't change the plot, there's no need to burden this game further by trying to take into account every single possible response a player can make. Instead, the dialog written on the screen (which evidence indicates less than half the playerbase actually reads, else they wouldn't have some of the questions they have) leaves your personal speech options pretty much open.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,036 Community Moderator
    @patrickngo Don't you get tired of typing all of that over and over again? Or do you have a Word document that you just copy and paste from?
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    @patrickngo Don't you get tired of typing all of that over and over again? Or do you have a Word document that you just copy and paste from?

    He writes it from rote, every time.

    Notice: he makes his points in different order, uses different examples, at times.
    He makes his points worded differently, even using different typos, and punctuation.

    So, yeah, all his "rants" are original works.

    BTW....this thread, contrary to the title, will never end the arguing. LOL!
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    (which evidence indicates less than half the playerbase actually reads, else they wouldn't have some of the questions they have)
    Ohh god this.

    There has been so many times where someone asked some sort of plot question and i'm like "they explained it right here in this 100% unskippable conversation", and people asked amazed like they never saw it before when they had to have in order to complete the mission!
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    I'm not so foolish as to believe there will ever be true factionalization. The development team has stated in multiple ways that they dislike the idea, won't do it, and wish it had never been done in the first place.

    But it appears to be too much to ask even for dialogue options which suit the various races. We all have to speak in the bland tones of Federation appeasement and consider everyone's inalienable alien rights. I don't need branching storylines; the story can go exactly the same way. What I want is to be able to call Cooper a sniveling coward, to inform Admiral Quinn that his failure of security has endangered the whole war effort, and to tell Odo he is an honorless dog for getting millions of civilians killed just to make a point.

    It is the complete homogenization of the races that bothers me. Star Trek is very Planet of Hats, and always has been. Some see this as a failing of the franchise: so be it. But in STO, there's only one hat, and we all have to wear it.

    Can't my Klingon worry, once in a while, about personal honor?
    Can't my Romulan consider, once in a while, how her actions reflect on her family?

    Apparently, no, because all of the dialogue is written from the perspective of an idealized Starfleet Captain.
    Except it's not, it's written from the perspective of a very generalized, featureless Videogame Protagonist.

    Fact is the Starfleet fanboys complain just as often about killing enemies instead of disabling them, not having option to keep trying to hail the badguys until the shields drop to 50%, etc, etc.
    jonsills wrote: »
    You want to say all those things? Then say all those things. I've had some pretty choice words for the higher-ups from time to time, especially that racist biznatch T'Nae. Sure, it can fetch some odd looks from other people in the room, but that's their problem, not yours.

    But since, just as in most episodes of the shows, that won't change the plot, there's no need to burden this game further by trying to take into account every single possible response a player can make. Instead, the dialog written on the screen (which evidence indicates less than half the playerbase actually reads, else they wouldn't have some of the questions they have) leaves your personal speech options pretty much open.
    Exactly this. There is no point giving players a long list of options of what to "say" when none of them actually do anything at all. Players should be given options if and only if their choice changes something. Otherwise, the button to move to the next screen of NPC monologue might as well say just "Continue."

    Players can always imagine whatever their character says, for all the difference it makes.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    The biggest thing that irks me about these discussions is that people try to frame is as some sort of failing of Cryptic's when, looking at any other game that attempts the same, they ALL fail at it. Even WoW, and SWTOR, games with significantly larger faction emphasis, have had most post-release content be faction neutral. The most recent SWTOR release, which restarts more Jedi vs Sith conflict, lets Sith players do the Jedi side stuff if they want, and vice-versa, using the narrative device of "well, you can betray your side!", and both side's content is generally seen as pretty mediocre. WoW's newest expansion, which also does the same with restarting the Alliance vs Horde dynamic, has been massively crapped on for neither side having particularly great or substantive content.

    The problem with trying to maintain faction exclusive content is that you are basically asking Devs to develop two versions of the game at the same time, which means both versions get half the content and work then had they just made everything cross faction. This just results in two crappy games instead of one good one. While Cryptic isn't a particularly large studio, this idea that if they had more money and a larger staff they would be able to do it is fundamentally dishonest and misrepresentative of the actual problem at hand. The REAL problem is a simple limitation of technology that would allow for such ease of making new content that any dev team could actually accomplish making two games at once, much less accomplish it well.

    This same holds true for other things unrelated to faction specific content. Exploration is another big one. Procedural/random generation of content is a very easy thing to do. The Elder Scrolls Daggerfall did it all the way back in 1996, to the extent of making a map the size of Great Britain. The problem isn't having a procedural content system, its having one that doesn't suck. You just have to look at 2016's No Man's Sky to see that, despite 20 years of technological development, such systems still suck, even when games are built entirely around them as the main focus. Even after several major updates to make the game better, No Man's Sky is still pretty garbage, with really basic and boring gameplay that amounts to a Star Trek Online "beam in and scan give things, or warp in and kill 5 things" exploration mission from the old system. Throwing more money and people isn't going to solve a problem that is fundamentally tied to technology, rather then manpower. If we ever do get a new "exploration" system, I would honestly suspect it to be just like 50-60 pre-made patrol-like missions featuring alien races from the TV shows like the Iotians from the gangster planet in ToS, rather then actually, randomly generated, missions.

    Ship Interiors are another big one, though, this is more of a lack of anything to do with them, then a budget/manpower problems.
    1. From a cinematic standpoint, ship Interiors were important in the TV shows/movies because they were TV shows/movies, and thus, you needed someplace for the actors to stand around and talk. STO, being a video game, doesn't work like a TV show. Cryptic can't do a cutscene to simulate the same because, unlike the TV shows, players could be using any ship/bridge in the game, and thus, the boff's positions aren't stationary, making it impossible to have them be on any bridge, yet still in the right place for the cutscene. The other option is manually loading between system space, the bridge, the various interior rooms, and then back to system space, which is an excessive amount of loading screens for something that can just be done via dialog box. So this more cinematic use of bridges is out of the question.
    2. From a more game mechanics standpoint, a large portion of ships interiors are just basic things like quarters, mess hall, rooms for playing music, or teaching kids, holodecks for recreation, rooms for storage of supplies, etc. etc. These things all exist as simple life necessities to keep the crew happy during their long multi-year voyages, but don't really factor into any sort of mechanical gameplay purpose we could take advantage of in-game. The other side of ship interiors is the more "mechanical" parts of the ships like engineering, and science labs, and the infirmary, where things are actually done/made. The problem with this is that the captain isn't the one who does these things, the crew is, and one CAN already have the crew do these things in-game, by either going into their ship interior and talking to these NPCs directly, or by using the comm in your ready room to contact them that way. There are already doff missions in the game to have them do things like treat crew for medical problems, set up counseling sessions, perform experimental warp core/deflector/impulse engines/weapons tests/upgrades that can boost your ship's efficiency, so on and so forth.
    The main problem with ship interiors is that there is really nothing to do with them that isn't already done in-game, at least, not in the kind of game STO is. There are games where you do have to do things like hire people to do maintenance on starship interiors, and buy better quarters for your crew so their morale is higher and they work more efficiently, but STO isn't that kind of micromanagement game. I also doubt most people would like to run into things like "your weapons now have a 10% damage debuff because you didn't buy the high ranked chef to make the best food possible so they stay happy!" in STO, when STO already has you balancing so many other things to begin with.

    Not to mention, ships are pretty standard. Picard doesn't just get to pull into ESD and tell Starfleet command "you know, I think my crew deserves the DELUXE quarters upgrade to our Galaxy class ship because we have been doing so well!" A Galaxy class starship is a Galaxy class starship, and they are all pretty much the same unless specially modified for a special mission. You don't get to pick various levels of room quality.

    The only real purpose ship interiors could provide is for holodeck games. However, holodeck games not only don't provide or facilitate the gameplay of any other part of the game, but getting to them would require going through multiple load screens just to reach the game in question. Due to that, they would likely just make them accessible via the mission log in some manner to make transition to them faster and smoother, making having an actual working holodeck in your ship interior rather pointless.(Technically speaking, both Starbase 1 and Battle of Binary Stars were holodeck sims, so any other holodeck sims would likely be done in the same way)
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    The biggest thing that irks me about these discussions is that people try to frame is as some sort of failing of Cryptic's when, looking at any other game that attempts the same, they ALL fail at it. Even WoW, and SWTOR, games with significantly larger faction emphasis, have had most post-release content be faction neutral. The most recent SWTOR release, which restarts more Jedi vs Sith conflict, lets Sith players do the Jedi side stuff if they want, and vice-versa, using the narrative device of "well, you can betray your side!", and both side's content is generally seen as pretty mediocre. WoW's newest expansion, which also does the same with restarting the Alliance vs Horde dynamic, has been massively crapped on for neither side having particularly great or substantive content.

    The problem with trying to maintain faction exclusive content is that you are basically asking Devs to develop two versions of the game at the same time, which means both versions get half the content and work then had they just made everything cross faction. This just results in two crappy games instead of one good one. While Cryptic isn't a particularly large studio, this idea that if they had more money and a larger staff they would be able to do it is fundamentally dishonest and misrepresentative of the actual problem at hand. The REAL problem is a simple limitation of technology that would allow for such ease of making new content that any dev team could actually accomplish making two games at once, much less accomplish it well.

    This same holds true for other things unrelated to faction specific content. Exploration is another big one. Procedural/random generation of content is a very easy thing to do. The Elder Scrolls Daggerfall did it all the way back in 1996, to the extent of making a map the size of Great Britain. The problem isn't having a procedural content system, its having one that doesn't suck. You just have to look at 2016's No Man's Sky to see that, despite 20 years of technological development, such systems still suck, even when games are built entirely around them as the main focus. Even after several major updates to make the game better, No Man's Sky is still pretty garbage, with really basic and boring gameplay that amounts to a Star Trek Online "beam in and scan give things, or warp in and kill 5 things" exploration mission from the old system. Throwing more money and people isn't going to solve a problem that is fundamentally tied to technology, rather then manpower. If we ever do get a new "exploration" system, I would honestly suspect it to be just like 50-60 pre-made patrol-like missions featuring alien races from the TV shows like the Iotians from the gangster planet in ToS, rather then actually, randomly generated, missions.

    Ship Interiors are another big one, though, this is more of a lack of anything to do with them, then a budget/manpower problems.
    1. From a cinematic standpoint, ship Interiors were important in the TV shows/movies because they were TV shows/movies, and thus, you needed someplace for the actors to stand around and talk. STO, being a video game, doesn't work like a TV show. Cryptic can't do a cutscene to simulate the same because, unlike the TV shows, players could be using any ship/bridge in the game, and thus, the boff's positions aren't stationary, making it impossible to have them be on any bridge, yet still in the right place for the cutscene. The other option is manually loading between system space, the bridge, the various interior rooms, and then back to system space, which is an excessive amount of loading screens for something that can just be done via dialog box. So this more cinematic use of bridges is out of the question.
    2. From a more game mechanics standpoint, a large portion of ships interiors are just basic things like quarters, mess hall, rooms for playing music, or teaching kids, holodecks for recreation, rooms for storage of supplies, etc. etc. These things all exist as simple life necessities to keep the crew happy during their long multi-year voyages, but don't really factor into any sort of mechanical gameplay purpose we could take advantage of in-game. The other side of ship interiors is the more "mechanical" parts of the ships like engineering, and science labs, and the infirmary, where things are actually done/made. The problem with this is that the captain isn't the one who does these things, the crew is, and one CAN already have the crew do these things in-game, by either going into their ship interior and talking to these NPCs directly, or by using the comm in your ready room to contact them that way. There are already doff missions in the game to have them do things like treat crew for medical problems, set up counseling sessions, perform experimental warp core/deflector/impulse engines/weapons tests/upgrades that can boost your ship's efficiency, so on and so forth.
    The main problem with ship interiors is that there is really nothing to do with them that isn't already done in-game, at least, not in the kind of game STO is. There are games where you do have to do things like hire people to do maintenance on starship interiors, and buy better quarters for your crew so their morale is higher and they work more efficiently, but STO isn't that kind of micromanagement game. I also doubt most people would like to run into things like "your weapons now have a 10% damage debuff because you didn't buy the high ranked chef to make the best food possible so they stay happy!" in STO, when STO already has you balancing so many other things to begin with.

    Not to mention, ships are pretty standard. Picard doesn't just get to pull into ESD and tell Starfleet command "you know, I think my crew deserves the DELUXE quarters upgrade to our Galaxy class ship because we have been doing so well!" A Galaxy class starship is a Galaxy class starship, and they are all pretty much the same unless specially modified for a special mission. You don't get to pick various levels of room quality.

    The only real purpose ship interiors could provide is for holodeck games. However, holodeck games not only don't provide or facilitate the gameplay of any other part of the game, but getting to them would require going through multiple load screens just to reach the game in question. Due to that, they would likely just make them accessible via the mission log in some manner to make transition to them faster and smoother, making having an actual working holodeck in your ship interior rather pointless.(Technically speaking, both Starbase 1 and Battle of Binary Stars were holodeck sims, so any other holodeck sims would likely be done in the same way)

    Lets not get into ships interiors as this is a fct topic. But Holodecks something I kinda wished they would program into the game or allow us to access foundry maps from there.
    Would be kinda neat to have holodeck misadventures. There was that one time the some of the enterprise d crew there or something and they had to use the holodeck train to pilot the ship because a new lifeform that took over the ships systems was dieing that and life support systems were failing.
    There have been other holodeck episodes as well. That one where the main personal of ds9 were replacing holodeck charaters and they had to make sure none of them died. Maybe having holodeck misadventures maybe on one of the ds9 holosuites maybe you are told to take shore leave and you deside to go to the holosweets on ds9 and get stuck in a unfortunate situation. They could very well add a few holodeck misadventures maybe basing them on faction, where you have to deal with something, maybe for the Klingon, A Klingon opera play going completely wrong. Federation maybe a Shakespearean holodeck program goes completely wrong. Romulans maybe a simulation of a location once found on Romulus goes completely wrong and then you have to deal with it through unorthodox means! Maybe it could be an alliance simulation gone completely wrong. Yeah they have moved to more the galactic alliance that will be the one to fight the sphere builders and make up the temporal accords in the far future.

    They have built up the alliance storyline for a long time. Even to where even the dominion comes into it. Its purpose is to deal with galactic threats. And well know that there is many of them still. It would be nice to see diversity in faction comments and dialog depending on faction maybe they can do it as they overhaul the mission episodes. But yeah the writer of this thread is right. Federation, Kdf, Romulan Republic are basically now the Alpha Quadrant Alliance. Basically a new galactic power formed by all three. I also think they are building up to the fall of the klingon empire. By the way they have been doing that storyline. The thing is they are wanting to move it to the point that forces the Klingons to join the federation. I found it funny that a Klingon Warrior was Starfleets Representative in that one mission. He was not wearing a star fleet uniform but a Klingon Empire outfit. So they were allowed to keep their cultural identity. Personally would like to see them move away from that trend, of federation being basically the borg and go back to its core values like the Prime Directive. Of non interference within a worlds or factions society unless they ask for it in the case of the Klingon Empire.
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,321 Arc User
    I'd be happy with things as they are if the NPC's in the mission simply acknowledged my char's affiliation and gender.

    Over and over here and elsewhere we see people who want to play the STO in their head. Rather than the STO we have right now. No crew of developers and artists and programmers will ever be able to produce a product which can compete with the STO in our head. To try doing so would bankrupt the richest of game companies. Is STO perfect? Nope. Not by a long shot. But asking for perfection isn't why I play STO. Are there things in STO I want done better? Yup. Sure are. But at the end of the day I view this as a game. Entertainment. A fun diversion from the Real World.

    Not a replacement for it.

    I'd like to have a faction specific version of every mission in the journal, but wishing for such a fantasy is just that - wishing
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Exactly this. There is no point giving players a long list of options of what to "say" when none of them actually do anything at all. Players should be given options if and only if their choice changes something. Otherwise, the button to move to the next screen of NPC monologue might as well say just "Continue."

    Players can always imagine whatever their character says, for all the difference it makes.
    It's part of why many games have incredibly generic dialogs and some don't even bother with writing the player at all. Thus the "silent protagonist" trope.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I also think they are building up to the fall of the klingon empire. By the way they have been doing that storyline. The thing is they are wanting to move it to the point that forces the Klingons to join the federation. I found it funny that a Klingon Warrior was Starfleets Representative in that one mission. He was not wearing a star fleet uniform but a Klingon Empire outfit. So they were allowed to keep their cultural identity. Personally would like to see them move away from that trend, of federation being basically the borg and go back to its core values like the Prime Directive. Of non interference within a worlds or factions society unless they ask for it in the case of the Klingon Empire.
    Given that the Klingon Empire still exists in the far future it's much less its "fall" but rather a "cleaning house" of all the Klingons who are unable, or unwilling, to put aside the more violent aspects of their culture in favor of working together with others. Basically, getting rid of all the Klingons like Chang, Duras, Torg, B'vat, etc. etc.

    As for the Klingon Ambassador in the missions you mention, there are several things people tend forget
    1. The Federation is not like the United States, but rather, closer to the European Union. It's a bunch of independent nations coming together under a larger umbrella state for the purposes of trade and defense. Each nation in the Federation is still separate from the rest, and maintain ambassadors between each other, and have their own trade deals, cultures, etc. etc.
    2. Starfleet is the military/exploration arm of the Federation. While Starfleet captains do serve diplomatic roles during First contact situations, the actual Federation diplomatic organization is not part of Starfleet, and we have seen many Federation diplomats not wearing Starfleet uniforms because you don't have to be in Starfleet to be a diplomat in the Federation.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 8,792 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I start by being grateful that we get new story episodes at all, unlike the corpse of SWTOR, Rot In Peace.

    I do agree that it would be nice to have the story writers put a few more faction-specific nods into episodes beyond "go talk to your faction contact." But even more than that I'd prefer more choices in dialogue and approach. Like the old DS9 arc where you have the choice whether to spare or kill the ferengi criminal in the Dominion, or Nimbus where you capture or kill Hassan. That isn't faction-specific, it's character / role-play specific.

    I think it's better to allow choices for a rationalist Klingon, a brutal killer Fed, a straightforward Romulan instead of adding stereotypical faction choices ("Me Klingon! Me eat your kidneys! RARRGH!").
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    They really have done a really good job, and do have to thank them for it, for making rich storylines. But I really think it really is high time they give us true exploration. New homebrewed species first contact like stuff. The galaxy is a very huge place, and there is a lot they can do with it. I think its high time we go back to the true purpose of Star Trek Exploration. Less Combat focus, they can still do combat but put it on a backburner. The Alliance and all the factions need time to recover a joint exploration mission effort to try and expand the alliances influence could be something they could work into the storyline.
    A Joint Alliance Five Year Mission, exploring systems in deep space and in the existing known space at the very edges. The Lukari storyline was a start, getting to explore the Hurq even though they made it combat focused, was also good. But a less combat and war focused exploration storyline and storylines would bring true star trek to the game. War was never the main focus that was not Genes Vision Exploration and an enlightened human society was the major focus of most of the Star Trek Shows. Having Enlighted Klingon, Romulan and Human Explorers could work wonders for the game.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 8,792 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    They really have done a really good job, and do have to thank them for it, for making rich storylines. But I think a lot of players would like to see exploration true exploration. New homebrewed species first contact like stuff. The galaxy is a very huge place, and there is a lot they can do with it. I think its high time we go back to the true purpose of Star Trek Exploration. Less Combat focus, they can still do combat but put it on a backburner. The Alliance and all the factions need time to recover a joint exploration mission effort to try and expand the alliances influence could be something they could work into the storyline.
    A Joint Alliance Five Year Mission, exploring systems in deep space and in the existing known space at the very edges.

    They tried that with Sunrise and the Lukari and Kentari, but the majority of players prefer the pew pew pew.

    That's the problem with suggestions for changes in direction (exploration), re-vamping PVP, adding new "full" factions, adding new faction episodes. Cryptic has tried all of that, and based on the money they made from it they know the minority that wants it won't spend enough to make it profitable.

    I probably sound like a broken record (an expression that finally makes sense to young people again :) ) but even though these are nice ideas and I support them in an ideal world, Cryptic doesn't live in that world. They have to focus on what the majority will pay for.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    I start by being grateful that we get new story episodes at all, unlike the corpse of SWTOR, Rot In Peace.

    I do agree that it would be nice to have the story writers put a few more faction-specific nods into episodes beyond "go talk to your faction contact." But even more than that I'd prefer more choices in dialogue and approach. Like the old DS9 arc where you have the choice whether to spare or kill the ferengi criminal in the Dominion, or Nimbus where you capture or kill Hassan. That isn't faction-specific, it's character / role-play specific.

    I think it's better to allow choices for a rationalist Klingon, a brutal killer Fed, a straightforward Romulan instead of adding stereotypical faction choices ("Me Klingon! Me eat your kidneys! RARRGH!").
    Or for Orions, who choose not to kill their enemies but instead capture them to be sold as slave labor. :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    They really have done a really good job, and do have to thank them for it, for making rich storylines. But I think a lot of players would like to see exploration true exploration. New homebrewed species first contact like stuff. The galaxy is a very huge place, and there is a lot they can do with it. I think its high time we go back to the true purpose of Star Trek Exploration. Less Combat focus, they can still do combat but put it on a backburner. The Alliance and all the factions need time to recover a joint exploration mission effort to try and expand the alliances influence could be something they could work into the storyline.
    A Joint Alliance Five Year Mission, exploring systems in deep space and in the existing known space at the very edges.

    They tried that with Sunrise and the Lukari and Kentari, but the majority of players prefer the pew pew pew.

    That's the problem with suggestions for changes in direction (exploration), re-vamping PVP, adding new "full" factions, adding new faction episodes. Cryptic has tried all of that, and based on the money they made from it they know the minority that wants it won't spend enough to make it profitable.

    I probably sound like a broken record (an expression that finally makes sense to young people again :) ) but even though these are nice ideas and I support them in an ideal world, Cryptic doesn't live in that world. They have to focus on what the majority will pay for.

    By Ironically making the Federation the Klingon Empire in the Process. Think that was mentioned somewhere in the tv tropes for star trek online. Exploration should still become the major focus even if they reduce the combat, they can still add in more combat queues and missions to satisfy the pew pew pew crowd. Finding a way to do both while going back to the main point of startrek would be the best way I think. There is another reason why too, the factions have got to be in dire straights from all the wars and fighting they have had to be doing. KLingon Empire espeically which might be why he stayed out of most of the Hurq war. Which would be another irony the Klingon Empire moving more towards being the Federation. While the Federation and the other powers do most of the warmongering.
    I don't think the Republic can keep it up because of the setbacks they have had and they are a small faction compared to the federation and the klingon empire. Federation citzens might very well be sick the of the warmongering and it would make sense for them to protest it. I'm sure all the major factions are sick of the constant wars. If it continues without giving the powers time to recover then well it wouldn't good at all for all the alliance power factions. So yes I do think they need to do a break from war content after they finish doing the age of discovery and go back to star treks roots. Give each of the alliance members a chance to recover. Without war, then when they feel they must pull off another war arc, they can do so. I imagine it would take at least two or three years before the factions can recover and rebuild up their forces. For the next major war that will be coming as we all know it will given stos trend for it.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I think its high time we go back to the true purpose of Star Trek Exploration.
    The "exploration" of Star Trek was about exploring the human condition, not the exploration space.

    Space exploration was just a mcguffin used to get the crew in contact with alien species that served as expies of various aspects of humanity, be they political, religious, environmental, social, etc., and then had the crew confront these aliens, and point out what was wrong with whatever that alien race was based on. However, many of the aliens the crew encountered were alien races already known to the Federation before the episode in question. They weren't about exploring space, but dealing with an alien species already known to them.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,212 Arc User
    I think its high time we go back to the true purpose of Star Trek Exploration.
    The "exploration" of Star Trek was about exploring the human condition, not the exploration space.

    Space exploration was just a mcguffin used to get the crew in contact with alien species that served as expies of various aspects of humanity, be they political, religious, environmental, social, etc., and then had the crew confront these aliens, and point out what was wrong with whatever that alien race was based on. However, many of the aliens the crew encountered were alien races already known to the Federation before the episode in question. They weren't about exploring space, but dealing with an alien species already known to them.

    And to add to this, unless exploration 'rewarded' sufficiently for some people, it won't get played, and we know when it comes to reward, people just want 'more, more, more'.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,993 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    And to add to this, unless exploration 'rewarded' sufficiently for some people, it won't get played, and we know when it comes to reward, people just want 'more, more, more'.
    Another big problem is that Star Trek is already stupidly expansive. While I don't know if there is a known hard count for how many alien species or entities have appeared in the TV shows and movies, I know the number is around 1,100, if not more.

    That huge number includes sentient species of all types of animals such as cats, dogs, snakes, spiders, turtles, bears, bugs, fish, bees, and all types of religious states, military states, warrior nations, religious empires, xenophobic nations, hive minded aliens, machine aliens, shape shifters, non-corporeals, so on and so forth. If you can think of it, Star Trek has probably already done it, and probably already done it twice, if not more.

    This was already becoming a problem before TNG ended, which is why we see an increase in Klingon and Romulan episodes in later TNG. DS9 took this even further by focusing massively on just a small group of aliens, and only three major Dominion aliens. Even Voyager, which took a step back from DS9, and tried to be more like TOS/TNG, still had a large focus on reoccurring aliens like the Kazon and Vidiians in earlier seasons, and the Borg in later seasons. Enterprise had a large focus on the Xindi, and the other major species that showed up were already established species like the Andorians. And Discovery's first season was basically "dude Klingons!"

    There is pretty much nothing Cryptic could come up with that isn't just a redo of an alien already in Trek canon, and when you have the option of making a copy of an already existing alien, or just using that already existing alien and thus adding depth to them, most writers would choose the latter over the former.

    There is really nothing to be gained from an "exploration" system that couldn't equally be gained from just using already existing Trek aliens.
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