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Forums > Home› Ten Forward

Dance emotes, Fortnite gets sued over similar emote.

snowwolf#0563 snowwolf
snowwolf#0563
 Member Posts: 1,018 Arc User
edited December 2018 in Ten Forward
So we have the unusual dance emote in the game that's the Carlton dance from Fresh Prince of Bel air etc, however Alfonso Ribeiro is suing Fortnite over putting this dance in the game. Since Star Trek Online has the dance emote as well, would it be a good idea to disable the emote? Or do we have some sort of license to use it?

The same goes for another dance emote we have, from the backpack kid.

These two dance emotes exists in other games and are getting sued, I'd feel like STO would be in danger of getting hit as well. I don't want to cause a chaos or something, I just wanted to give a heads up.

Sources:
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-46604012
https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/fresh-prince-alfonso-riberio-carlton-dance-lawsuit-1.4950475
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-fresh-prince-of-bel-airs-alfonso-ribeiro-sues-epic-over-fortnites-fresh-emote/

Comments

  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I assume those other games sell the emotes for $. I think STO's Unusual Dance was an in-game reward? So no profits to sue over. Plus that dance isn't copyrighted. (He's trying to do that atm) So not sure if there's any real legal recourse.

    'Ol Alfonzo just seeing others make money off of 'his' dance, I can't fault him for wanting his cut. But copyrighting body movements might be a bad prescient for lots of reasons.
    Post edited by dracounguis on
  • bossheisenbergbossheisenberg Member Posts: 603 Arc User
    What is the backpack kid??

    There is also that Michael Jackson dance in the game as well....
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,870 Community Moderator
    dracounguis wrote: »
    I assume those other games sell the emotes for $. I think STO's Unusual Dance was an in-game reward? So no profits to sue over. Plus that dance isn't copyrighted. (He's trying to do that atm) So not sure if there's any real legal recourse.

    It was a summer event thing, purchasable via event tokens earned just by doing things on Risa. The ONLY way to say you bought it with money is to use Zen to buy keys, sell keys for ECs, then buy the Favors for ECs off the Exchange, then purchase the emote with said Favors.

    Frankly its just easier to earn the Favors for free than jump through that many hoops. Besides... we really don't have any emotes you have to spend real money on anymore. All the OLD C-Store emotes are in the Phoenix Box, and unless you talk about the Loot Crate promotion stuff... no emote in STO requires any infusion of real money.

    So honestly... STO is in the clear as its not making any money off that emote, unlike those other games.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    Yang Xiao Long wrote:
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,765 Arc User
    Everyone is going after Fortnite and the EA (Football?) game for two reasons:
    - They sell the emotes for cash
    - The games are 100 times more profitable than STO (Fortnite is a billion-dollar cash machine)

    Also, you can sue anyone for anything. A sleazy lawyer sued a dry cleaner for $54 million for losing his pants. He lost. He got nothing. Good DAY Sir!
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    Doom?
    I need a beer.

  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,870 Community Moderator
    davefenestrator wrote: »
    - They sell the emotes for cash

    And that... is where the problem comes in.

    Why do I feel like this is going to be loot box 2.0?
    "STO SHOULD REMOVE THESE EMOTES TO NOT GET SUED!!!"
    I'll get my popcorn.
    latest?cb=20180616163412
    captainoblivous wrote: »
    Doom?

    Yup. Pretty much.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    Yang Xiao Long wrote:
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    No, it's time we stopped putting up with all this felgercarb.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
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    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    colonelmarik wrote: »
    I wonder if he'll win. It's not as if he invented that dance, it's just an exaggeration of an existing dance move. Either way, it might not matter whether someone makes money on the emote. If he claims intellectual property or perhaps claims it's somehow part of his image, then he might have a leg to dance on. Otherwise, I'm not sure how this would work out, legally.

    i think he did invent it... it's back from his tv days on the Fresh Prince. I have not heard of someone teaching him to dance that way... he probably came up with it on his own for the show. problem is he never copyrighted the choreography for it. Even if he gets the CR now... can he apply it to past works? Has it gone into public domain?
  • anodynesanodynes Member Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    dracounguis wrote: »
    I assume those other games sell the emotes for $. I think STO's Unusual Dance was an in-game reward? So no profits to sue over. Plus that dance isn't copyrighted. (He's trying to do that atm) So not sure if there's any real legal recourse.

    It was a summer event thing, purchasable via event tokens earned just by doing things on Risa.

    Unusual dance was an Anniversary Event unlock this year, along with Smooth and a number of other emotes. The Backpack Kid's Floss dance was one of the Risa emotes.
    This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Until there's actual litigation then there is absolutely no reason to begin editing STO. Just...no. A legal challenge is not the same as a legal ruling (forums, you need to take this one to heart) and even if Cryptic was concerned its in their interest to wait to see how this plays out before rushing to remove content (something the OP has expressed concerns about in other contexts) when quite possibly the challenge the precipitated it will fail.

    If Cryptic gets sued then there's a discussion to be had there (in the framework of that legal challenge and how Cryptic formally responds to it. Forums input isn't going to enter into that one.) Otherwise, this matter is irrelevant to this game.

    PS.
    http://ericnortonlaw.com/can-i-trademark-it/trademark-a-dance-move/
    Since we’re talking intellectual property, I may as well mention that it may also be possible to copyright a dance—but not just a move itself. You have to combine a number of dance moves and patterns into an expressive whole for it to be eligible for copyright protection.

    Best answer I've found so far regarding the legal prospects of suing over a dance move. If you did what STO did (ie. used a single move from a set) then you're probably in the clear. Again, suing someone is not the end of the litigation process, and you should never assume that a case is going to go the full distance to awarding damages just because it's been filed. Wait and see if you're interested, though for the time being this would probably be best served in Ten Forward.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,870 Community Moderator
    anodynes wrote: »
    Unusual dance was an Anniversary Event unlock this year, along with Smooth and a number of other emotes. The Backpack Kid's Floss dance was one of the Risa emotes.

    Eh... still... end result is the same. We got it for free.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    Yang Xiao Long wrote:
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot
    thunderfoot#5163
         Member Posts: 4,545 Arc User
    So now we're supposed to worry over dance moves in STO? Jiminy Christmas, give me a break.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,870 Community Moderator
    thunderfoot006 wrote: »
    So now we're supposed to worry over dance moves in STO? Jiminy Christmas, give me a break.

    And that is why... I got my popcorn.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    Yang Xiao Long wrote:
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • anodynesanodynes Member Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    anodynes wrote: »
    Unusual dance was an Anniversary Event unlock this year, along with Smooth and a number of other emotes. The Backpack Kid's Floss dance was one of the Risa emotes.

    Eh... still... end result is the same. We got it for free.

    It actually makes Unusual a bit more untouchable than Floss. There was literally no way any money could be exchanged for Unusual, while somebody could have, in theory, bought Zen to buy items to sell for EC to buy Favors to buy Floss. With how convoluted that sentence is, and the very idea that nobody had to pay for the Favors to buy Floss, I think it's fine as well.

    The only dance emote that is in any danger, however slight, is Disco, since it is only available for spending money on the Loot Crate boxes that gave the code for it, but I have doubts about any of this standing up in the courts/appeals process.
    This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,219 Arc User
    Except that STO is a for profit entity which may or may not make use of works copyrighted by others. Doesn't matter if anyone directly pays for the individual emote or not: STO uses it and makes money.

    The thing that will avoid any legal trouble is that none of this stuff is actually copyrighted, and the first step of any copyright enforcement effort is a Cease and Desist request, so if someone does in fact copyright the moves, they then have to issue a request to have the offending items removed. If the offender fails to comply, then they have something they can take to court.

    I'm not entirely certain a single move can be copyrighted. From what I read choreography can be, but not individual movements. I'm not a lawyer, and a lawyer will tell you anything can be claimed, but when it gets to court an altogether different ruling may come about. By that time everyone has probably spent more money than any of this is worth anyway.

    So, until a C&D comes down, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
  • captmack68captmack68 Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    If Alfonso R successfully sues, then I think Eddie Murphy (and any 80s era teenage girl) might also have a claim. Also, Belinda Carlisle from her Go-Gos days.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    Well the law here has two main things the prosecution needs to prove.

    1: originality, IE that the plaintiffs are in fact the originators of the dances in question(this is very much in question)

    2: that the dance is not a "social dance" or "simple routine". The law seems to be written for things like 30 minute choreographed productions and not moves you can bust out while bored and waiting in line at the super market.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,979 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Here's a lawyer's thoughts on the situation, he thinks the game developers will likely win but also says it could go either way because it deals with a part of copyright law that hasn't really come up in court before:

    https://youtu.be/p2WGRRiXVNs
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    With just the Carlton dance, there is not much of a lawsuit. However, if the owners of all the other Fortnite dances similar to the Carlton dance join in, then there is an extremely good reason for a lawsuit. Although, it is possible that the rights to the dance belong to some agency and Fortnite obtained the right to use the various Fortnite dances.
    Post edited by starkaos on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    the backpack kid is the least viable as a suit, since it's been proven he didn't create it. 2 Milly... is highly questionable in general.

    The real question is if this category of dance is actually protected by copyright at all. The law has a specific exclusion for "simple routines"...
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Meh

    STO's dance emotes only have a vague resemblence to what influenced them, generate no revenue for the game, and don't use the known names.

    STO originally sold the Emote Packs which included the Air Guitar and Jester Dance emotes. So there is at least one dance emote that generated revenue for the game.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Meh

    STO's dance emotes only have a vague resemblence to what influenced them, generate no revenue for the game, and don't use the known names.
    STO originally sold the Emote Packs which included the Air Guitar and Jester Dance emotes. So there is at least one dance emote that generated revenue for the game.
    Also the Disco dance emote was part of a promotion people had to pay for.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    markhawkman wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Meh

    STO's dance emotes only have a vague resemblence to what influenced them, generate no revenue for the game, and don't use the known names.
    STO originally sold the Emote Packs which included the Air Guitar and Jester Dance emotes. So there is at least one dance emote that generated revenue for the game.
    Also the Disco dance emote was part of a promotion people had to pay for.

    As part of a Starter Pack that is a Loot Crate exclusive which has been extremely messed up since the announcement. Anyone that relied on the announcement to purchase the Loot Crate missed out on the first crate and there has only been 2 Crates this year. There is a chance that some people might get the 3rd Loot Crate on December 31 which supposedly contains a Seven of Nine figure, but that is dependent on if delivery trucks operate on December 31.

    There is currently zero Youtube videos about the third Star Trek Loot Crate, but there should be at least a couple of them coming out this week that will give away the STO code for either the Federation Starter Pack (Disco emote), Klingon Starter Pack (Evil Plans emote), or Romulan Starter Pack (Organian Greeting emote).

    The Dark Frontier Loot Crate coming out this week is for the one that was supposed to come out in May 2018 while the Way of the Warrior Loot Crate that was supposed to come out in March 2018 came out in August 2018. There is still the July 2018, September 2018, and November 2018 Loot Crates to wait for.

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